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Of course you disagree.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:
To explain myself better.

To:
"My mono-faction army can't compete agaisnt a Imperial Guard soup with BA and Custodes"

The answer is
"The competitive reality of 8th is that you need to have a very powerfull codex or use all the tools at your disposal to compete, so souping is most of the time the best option"

But to:
"My mono-faction army can't compete agaisnt mono-faction Dark Eldar/Imperial Guard/ Craftworld Eldar"

Then the answer becomes:
"Those armies are very powerfull"(Most of the time) or
"Your army, sadly, is very weak" (To Grey Knights)

Yes, and I think that's fine.

Because my Mono-Faction Slaanesh Daemons can't compete with mono-faction ...well damn near anything. So does that mean I should call for the nerfing of everyone else?

Should a mono-faction Inquisition player ask for mono-GK to be nerfed so he has a chance?

Ehmm... no? You should ask for balance? That means buffing the weaker factions and nerfing the ones that are over the power curve/middle ground GW believes is the best way to play the game?

 Marmatag wrote:
It's pretty gross to sit there and say your ridiculously powerful army is a "noob stomper" when in reality quite a few armies simply cannot defeat Guard, regardless of their options.

I guess Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and Tau should just soup more? Or maybe all the flavors of SM should stop being so lame and add Guard to fight Guard.

Bottom line, Guard are a fantastic army, behind only
a combination of themselves + Custodes, Eldar + Dark Eldar, and *maybe* some Chaos but that's not even a given.

I don’t think the Tau matchup is that hopeless. I’d rather play against Guard than Alaitoc Eldar no question.

 Galas wrote:
Ehmm... no? You should ask for balance? That means buffing the weaker factions and nerfing the ones that are over the power curve/middle ground GW believes is the best way to play the game?

We're moving into the realm of theory here, but:
Do you believe it is possible to simultaneously balance mono-faction and soup lists against each other? Because I believe that balancing around mono-faction vs. mono-faction is going to throw the soup-vs-soup balance out of whack, while balancing around soup-vs-soup will essentially ensure that some factions will be powerful or less powerful as mono-factions, depending on what component of the soup they make up.

Furthermore, if you accept that premise, then I'd argue that between the two, GW should work to balance soup-vs-soup, even at the expense of mono-faction vs. mono-faction, because it is clearly their design intent that soup lists be encouraged by 8th Edition's rules.

This conclusion does, therefore, require the acceptance that mono-faction vs. mono-faction will be inherently imbalanced, since GW is balancing around soups.

meleti wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It's pretty gross to sit there and say your ridiculously powerful army is a "noob stomper" when in reality quite a few armies simply cannot defeat Guard, regardless of their options.

I guess Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and Tau should just soup more? Or maybe all the flavors of SM should stop being so lame and add Guard to fight Guard.

Bottom line, Guard are a fantastic army, behind only
a combination of themselves + Custodes, Eldar + Dark Eldar, and *maybe* some Chaos but that's not even a given.

I don’t think the Tau matchup is that hopeless. I’d rather play against Guard than Alaitoc Eldar no question.

In general, or as Tau?

Martel732 wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It's pretty gross to sit there and say your ridiculously powerful army is a "noob stomper" when in reality quite a few armies simply cannot defeat Guard, regardless of their options.

I guess Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and Tau should just soup more? Or maybe all the flavors of SM should stop being so lame and add Guard to fight Guard.

Bottom line, Guard are a fantastic army, behind only
a combination of themselves + Custodes, Eldar + Dark Eldar, and *maybe* some Chaos but that's not even a given.

I don’t think the Tau matchup is that hopeless. I’d rather play against Guard than Alaitoc Eldar no question.

In general, or as Tau?

As Tau. Alaitic’s hit penalties and strong psykers make it a pretty tough matchup.

meleti wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It's pretty gross to sit there and say your ridiculously powerful army is a "noob stomper" when in reality quite a few armies simply cannot defeat Guard, regardless of their options.

I guess Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and Tau should just soup more? Or maybe all the flavors of SM should stop being so lame and add Guard to fight Guard.

Bottom line, Guard are a fantastic army, behind only
a combination of themselves + Custodes, Eldar + Dark Eldar, and *maybe* some Chaos but that's not even a given.

I don’t think the Tau matchup is that hopeless. I’d rather play against Guard than Alaitoc Eldar no question.

It's not hopeless but it's not in your favor either. Regardless, i think everyone would rather not play a good tuned Eldar soup list right now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Ehmm... no? You should ask for balance? That means buffing the weaker factions and nerfing the ones that are over the power curve/middle ground GW believes is the best way to play the game?

We're moving into the realm of theory here, but:
Do you believe it is possible to simultaneously balance mono-faction and soup lists against each other?
(...)
This conclusion does, therefore, require the acceptance that mono-faction vs. mono-faction will be inherently imbalanced, since GW is balancing around soups.

Yes, I believe it is possible. To balance mono faction and soup, I believe you need to do it in two ways:

First of all, define what mono-factions you want to be standalone competitive armies (So no Sisters of Silence, Astra Telephatica, blablabla). Balance Mono-Factions agaisnt themselves to have them be balanced as close as possible.
After you have done that, put restrictions to Soup Armies to balance the strenght between a mono faction army and a soup army. Things like not using the Imperium/Chaos/Aeldari keyword in the same detachment are a small first step for this. And I'm a very pro-soup player. Literally all of my armies are soup, only my Tau arent.

We have seen that mono-factions are more than capable of fighting soup lists if they are OP enough. But that isn't good, thats failing in the first aspect, to balance mono-factions agaisnt each other.

All IG tanks could probably do with a 10-15 point increase. Maybe as much as 20-30 on the basilisk. Not including chimera - that should drop 15 points.

Company commanders should only get 1 order. With the special HQ's possibly giving 2.
Infantry to 5 points.

Just fixed guard in 2 minutes. Wow. This is hard GW.

And units should not be able to issue orders to themselves.

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Ehmm... no? You should ask for balance? That means buffing the weaker factions and nerfing the ones that are over the power curve/middle ground GW believes is the best way to play the game?

We're moving into the realm of theory here, but:
Do you believe it is possible to simultaneously balance mono-faction and soup lists against each other?
(...)
This conclusion does, therefore, require the acceptance that mono-faction vs. mono-faction will be inherently imbalanced, since GW is balancing around soups.

Yes, I believe it is possible. To balance mono faction and soup, I believe you need to do it in two ways:

First of all, define what mono-factions you want to be standalone competitive armies (So no Sisters of Silence, Astra Telephatica, blablabla). Balance Mono-Factions agaisnt themselves to have them be balanced as close as possible.
After you have done that, put restrictions to Soup Armies to balance the strenght between a mono faction army and a soup army. Things like not using the Imperium/Chaos/Aeldari keyword in the same detachment are a small first step for this. And I'm a very pro-soup player. Literally all of my armies are soup, only my Tau arent.

We have seen that mono-factions are more than capable of fighting soup lists if they are OP enough. But that isn't good, thats failing in the first aspect, to balance mono-factions agaisnt each other.

So you've chosen the "balance mono-factions by throwing soup out-of-whack, then kneecap soup with some sort of vague 'restrictions'" path. Alright.

I don't think the design intent of 8th was to have heavily restricted soup, and I'm not sure what sort of restrictions you're talking about, but that's for another thread, which we've rehashed time and again here on Dakkadakka.

I don't think it's possible to simultaneously have unrestricted soup while also balancing mono-faction vs. mono-faction engagements. I do agree that you can balance mono-faction vs. mono-faction but soup then has to be restricted, probably quite heavily.

 Marmatag wrote:
And units should not be able to issue orders to themselves.

Units can't issue Orders, period. Officers can--and there really aren't any good Orders to issue to themselves. Last edition you'd have Officers issuing Orders to their Command Squad, since CS pulled double duty as special weapons. Since those two things are different units now? It doesn't matter.

Or are you wanting to pine about Tank Commanders? Because in that case: NOPE! It actually makes a hell of a lot of sense for that to be done, since it can be the Tank Commander ordering his crew.

But hey, if you want to remove that ability? Let's remove Auras affecting the model emanating them, let's remove Psykers being able to buff themselves with non-"cast this on the Psyker" spells, etc.

It's only fair after all.

At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

 Marmatag wrote:
It's pretty gross to sit there and say your ridiculously powerful army is a "noob stomper" when in reality quite a few armies simply cannot defeat Guard, regardless of their options.

I guess Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and Tau should just soup more? Or maybe all the flavors of SM should stop being so lame and add Guard to fight Guard.

Bottom line, Guard are a fantastic army, behind only
a combination of themselves + Custodes, Eldar + Dark Eldar, and *maybe* some Chaos but that's not even a given.

I was talking about Russes, not guard as a whole. New players struggle to deal with Russes because of the T8 mostly, which takes a lot of new players by surprise with how much of a difference it can make.

The real strength of guard as an army is Guardsmen.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Ehmm... no? You should ask for balance? That means buffing the weaker factions and nerfing the ones that are over the power curve/middle ground GW believes is the best way to play the game?

We're moving into the realm of theory here, but:
Do you believe it is possible to simultaneously balance mono-faction and soup lists against each other?
(...)
This conclusion does, therefore, require the acceptance that mono-faction vs. mono-faction will be inherently imbalanced, since GW is balancing around soups.

Yes, I believe it is possible. To balance mono faction and soup, I believe you need to do it in two ways:

First of all, define what mono-factions you want to be standalone competitive armies (So no Sisters of Silence, Astra Telephatica, blablabla). Balance Mono-Factions agaisnt themselves to have them be balanced as close as possible.
After you have done that, put restrictions to Soup Armies to balance the strenght between a mono faction army and a soup army. Things like not using the Imperium/Chaos/Aeldari keyword in the same detachment are a small first step for this. And I'm a very pro-soup player. Literally all of my armies are soup, only my Tau arent.

We have seen that mono-factions are more than capable of fighting soup lists if they are OP enough. But that isn't good, thats failing in the first aspect, to balance mono-factions agaisnt each other.

So you've chosen the "balance mono-factions by throwing soup out-of-whack, then kneecap soup with some sort of vague 'restrictions'" path. Alright.

I don't think the design intent of 8th was to have heavily restricted soup, and I'm not sure what sort of restrictions you're talking about, but that's for another thread, which we've rehashed time and again here on Dakkadakka.

I don't think it's possible to simultaneously have unrestricted soup while also balancing mono-faction vs. mono-faction engagements. I do agree that you can balance mono-faction vs. mono-faction but soup then has to be restricted, probably quite heavily.

Not really. Theres a reason why Soup armies just spam the most OP part of every mono-faction. You don't see Blood Angels Tanks and Dante with Sanguinary Guard + Rough Riders and Veterans on Chimeras winning tournaments, because the problem isn't with soup but with X units being OP. And we see it with Mono Dark Eldar armies or Mono-Craftworld Eldar ones (Yeah, a Craftworld army with one Ynnari character is still a CWE Army) winning agaisnt soup without a problem.

If mono factions are balanced... the difference in power from souping would be marginal, because it woul become more of a strategic choice than a power one. And that difference in power can be achieved with small restrictions to soup. I agree that the intention of 8th wasn't to have soup be restricted but intentions change, just look at AoS. But as I said I don't believe, as Peregrine or others, that you need to make Soup basically unplayable to balance the game, at least more balanced that it is now. And it is allready pretty balanced!

But now, tangentially but in relation with this: You should stop oppening your posts with a strawman of the previous posters argument. Because then you follow up with a reasonable answer, but that first phrase puts the reader in a hostile and negative mood to read the rest of your post.

 Vaktathi wrote:
At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

They should probably do something different - like extend the range of orders or something
The base chasis need to go up on all russes. T8 12 wounds - is huge - you should have to pay for that resilience - not to mention their grinding advance rule. Gaurd shoot better on the move than eldar? Does that make any sense?

Some things you mentioned don't need to go up - some of them do though. How can you seriously say the manticore doesn't need to go up in cost?

 Vaktathi wrote:
At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

Said it before, saying it again:
People hate Orders. I don't know why but they think it's "unfair" and give anecdotes of a single Officer buffing huge swathes of an army.

I think we'd be better off if the whole system was overhauled from the ground up and adding another 'level' of Officer.

Senior Officer--HQ
Junior Officer--Elite
NCO--Troop(but don't count as mandatory Troop options)

Senior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' with his Order(shooting buff, CC buff, or a survival buff)
Junior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' that has to tie in with the Senior Officer's Order(so a shooting buff, CC buff, or survival buff has to have a similar one).
NCO has an aura that he grants to Infantry Squads near him.

Tank Commander becomes 'Armoured Element Senior Officer', does the same deal but no CC buff--instead it becomes a ROF buff.
A Junior Officer with the same deal.
NCO as a Heavy Support choice with the same deal.

Could even go so far as to add in a Sentinel equivalent.

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Ehmm... no? You should ask for balance? That means buffing the weaker factions and nerfing the ones that are over the power curve/middle ground GW believes is the best way to play the game?

We're moving into the realm of theory here, but:
Do you believe it is possible to simultaneously balance mono-faction and soup lists against each other?
(...)
This conclusion does, therefore, require the acceptance that mono-faction vs. mono-faction will be inherently imbalanced, since GW is balancing around soups.

Yes, I believe it is possible. To balance mono faction and soup, I believe you need to do it in two ways:

First of all, define what mono-factions you want to be standalone competitive armies (So no Sisters of Silence, Astra Telephatica, blablabla). Balance Mono-Factions agaisnt themselves to have them be balanced as close as possible.
After you have done that, put restrictions to Soup Armies to balance the strenght between a mono faction army and a soup army. Things like not using the Imperium/Chaos/Aeldari keyword in the same detachment are a small first step for this. And I'm a very pro-soup player. Literally all of my armies are soup, only my Tau arent.

We have seen that mono-factions are more than capable of fighting soup lists if they are OP enough. But that isn't good, thats failing in the first aspect, to balance mono-factions agaisnt each other.

So you've chosen the "balance mono-factions by throwing soup out-of-whack, then kneecap soup with some sort of vague 'restrictions'" path. Alright.

I don't think the design intent of 8th was to have heavily restricted soup, and I'm not sure what sort of restrictions you're talking about, but that's for another thread, which we've rehashed time and again here on Dakkadakka.

I don't think it's possible to simultaneously have unrestricted soup while also balancing mono-faction vs. mono-faction engagements. I do agree that you can balance mono-faction vs. mono-faction but soup then has to be restricted, probably quite heavily.

Not really. Theres a reason why Soup armies just spam the most OP part of every mono-faction. You don't see Blood Angels Tanks and Dante with Sanguinary Guard + Rough Riders and Veterans on Chimeras winning tournaments, because the problem isn't with soup but with X units being OP. And we see it with Mono Dark Eldar armies or Mono-Craftworld Eldar ones (Yeah, a Craftworld army with one Ynnari character is still a CWE Army) winning agaisnt soup without a problem.

If mono factions are balanced... the difference in power from souping would be marginal, because it woul become more of a strategic choice than a power one. And that difference in power can be achieved with small restrictions to soup. I agree that the intention of 8th wasn't to have soup be restricted but intentions change, just look at AoS. But as I said I don't believe, as Peregrine or others, that you need to make Soup basically unplayable to balance the game, at least more balanced that it is now. And it is allready pretty balanced!

But now, tangentially but in relation with this: You should stop oppening your posts with a strawman of the previous posters argument. Because then you follow up with a reasonable answer, but that first phrase puts the reader in a hostile and negative mood to read the rest of your post.

Alright, I can agree. Let's hit the OP units first, then we can take another look at the game. Let's see what Imperial Guard does for imperial soup; that should clue us in on what units are OP.
1) Be a CP battery.

Oh.

As for how I structure my posts: I'm not building a strawman, I'm retreading the same argument in my own words, in an effort to see if my interpretation is correct. If my words are wrong about what your argument is, then my interpretation is wrong, and I need to be corrected about what your argument actually is in order to have a productive discussion, because that means I didn't understand something you wished to express. So please, if something I said is wrong, tell me, because I need to understand your argument to address it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

Said it before, saying it again:
People hate Orders. I don't know why but they think it's "unfair" and give anecdotes of a single Officer buffing huge swathes of an army.

I think we'd be better off if the whole system was overhauled from the ground up and adding another 'level' of Officer.

Senior Officer--HQ
Junior Officer--Elite
NCO--Troop(but don't count as mandatory Troop options)

Senior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' with his Order(shooting buff, CC buff, or a survival buff)
Junior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' that has to tie in with the Senior Officer's Order(so a shooting buff, CC buff, or survival buff has to have a similar one).
NCO has an aura that he grants to Infantry Squads near him.

Tank Commander becomes 'Armoured Element Senior Officer', does the same deal but no CC buff--instead it becomes a ROF buff.
A Junior Officer with the same deal.
NCO as a Heavy Support choice with the same deal.

Could even go so far as to add in a Sentinel equivalent.

Okay I'll tell you why it's unfair. They are uncounterable psychic powers that can be used more than once in a turn. Their cost is very small. Just the fact that you are filling an HQ slot for 30 points is already a little wonky but you are also getting 2 uncounterable psychic powers (this is basically what they are) that have 3-4 different effects? How many orders are there really? man that is beyond a bargain - it's NUTs! How and there are some regimental orders too! Are you serious?

Lets compare the cadian take aim order to the eldar psychic power guide...
Oh look. They have the exact same effect except 1 can only target infantry squads (dark reapers are also infantry) and guide is a 7 to cast power (suggesting that is is a very powerful spell) most spells go off on 6's.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

Said it before, saying it again:
People hate Orders. I don't know why but they think it's "unfair" and give anecdotes of a single Officer buffing huge swathes of an army.

I think we'd be better off if the whole system was overhauled from the ground up and adding another 'level' of Officer.

Senior Officer--HQ
Junior Officer--Elite
NCO--Troop(but don't count as mandatory Troop options)

Senior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' with his Order(shooting buff, CC buff, or a survival buff)
Junior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' that has to tie in with the Senior Officer's Order(so a shooting buff, CC buff, or survival buff has to have a similar one).
NCO has an aura that he grants to Infantry Squads near him.

Tank Commander becomes 'Armoured Element Senior Officer', does the same deal but no CC buff--instead it becomes a ROF buff.
A Junior Officer with the same deal.
NCO as a Heavy Support choice with the same deal.

Could even go so far as to add in a Sentinel equivalent.

Okay I'll tell you why it's unfair. They are uncounterable psychic powers that can be used more than once in a turn. Their cost is very small. Just the fact that you are filling an HQ slot for 30 points is already a little wonky but you are also getting 2 uncounterable psychic powers (this is basically what they are) that have 3-4 different effects? How many orders are there really? man that is beyond a bargain - it's NUTs! How and there are some regimental orders too! Are you serious?

To be fair, they're actually replacements for the lack of auras, than they are psychic powers. So it may be better to think of them as aura bonuses, but they can only be given to 1 (or 2, for HQs) units instead of all of them within 6", so they're more powerful.

On the larger subject of game balance, I think GW should be focussing on balancing mono-build armies and allow the community to look at the ways inter-faction soup building upsets the balance and react accordingly.

It's much easier to balance the game around individual mono-faction armies and allow TOs to selectively or blankedly ban soup combinations than it is to balance Tau around mono-build, but guard around soup, trying to also make guard good on their own just makes it even harder.

As for the basilisk in particular, I don't think it's overcosted relative to other entries in the same book, if you were to up its points it would see less play, and the manticore would see much more. In general the guard codex is a good book with a lot of viable options which has been pointed out before, but I don't believe this is a bad thing. I think the guard codex achieves something very close to the lofty goal every codex is aspired to be, with many viable options, many ways of play, and ways to be competitive in each of them. The T'au codex fails to deliver on that promise because they pushed many traditionally outstanding units below the waterline, legitimate OP books fail to deliver on that promise because they present something so shiny its players can't bring themselves to take anything else.

I propose then that it's not in the interest of the game to punish the guard for being different, but to improve the other faction books until they measure up to that standard. Before the codex guard passed over the Leman Russ just like SM pass over predators, don't up the points cost for russes due to Grinding Advance, give every MBT on the game a comparable rule.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

Said it before, saying it again:
People hate Orders. I don't know why but they think it's "unfair" and give anecdotes of a single Officer buffing huge swathes of an army.

I think we'd be better off if the whole system was overhauled from the ground up and adding another 'level' of Officer.

Senior Officer--HQ
Junior Officer--Elite
NCO--Troop(but don't count as mandatory Troop options)

Senior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' with his Order(shooting buff, CC buff, or a survival buff)
Junior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' that has to tie in with the Senior Officer's Order(so a shooting buff, CC buff, or survival buff has to have a similar one).
NCO has an aura that he grants to Infantry Squads near him.

Tank Commander becomes 'Armoured Element Senior Officer', does the same deal but no CC buff--instead it becomes a ROF buff.
A Junior Officer with the same deal.
NCO as a Heavy Support choice with the same deal.

Could even go so far as to add in a Sentinel equivalent.

Okay I'll tell you why it's unfair. They are uncounterable psychic powers that can be used more than once in a turn. Their cost is very small. Just the fact that you are filling an HQ slot for 30 points is already a little wonky but you are also getting 2 uncounterable psychic powers (this is basically what they are) that have 3-4 different effects? How many orders are there really? man that is beyond a bargain - it's NUTs! How and there are some regimental orders too! Are you serious?

To be fair, they're actually replacements for the lack of auras, than they are psychic powers. So it may be better to think of them as aura bonuses, but they can only be given to 1 (or 2, for HQs) units instead of all of them within 6", so they're more powerful.

But you have auras. You have haker / MOA / ect. Not to mention everything can shoot better just by being Cadian. 90 points for 3 CC and you can spread you army out and don't have to death-ball. Space marine captain can reroll all hits for 3 command points for like 90ish points but his range is limited - having him affect more than 2 units means he has to not use his CC abilities (he is a cc character) and your other units have to gather around him (which sucks for objective play) orders are better than auras all day because they come on cheap bodies (unless we are talking about guilliman).

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

Said it before, saying it again:
People hate Orders. I don't know why but they think it's "unfair" and give anecdotes of a single Officer buffing huge swathes of an army.

I think we'd be better off if the whole system was overhauled from the ground up and adding another 'level' of Officer.

Senior Officer--HQ
Junior Officer--Elite
NCO--Troop(but don't count as mandatory Troop options)

Senior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' with his Order(shooting buff, CC buff, or a survival buff)
Junior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' that has to tie in with the Senior Officer's Order(so a shooting buff, CC buff, or survival buff has to have a similar one).
NCO has an aura that he grants to Infantry Squads near him.

Tank Commander becomes 'Armoured Element Senior Officer', does the same deal but no CC buff--instead it becomes a ROF buff.
A Junior Officer with the same deal.
NCO as a Heavy Support choice with the same deal.

Could even go so far as to add in a Sentinel equivalent.

Okay I'll tell you why it's unfair. They are uncounterable psychic powers that can be used more than once in a turn. Their cost is very small. Just the fact that you are filling an HQ slot for 30 points is already a little wonky but you are also getting 2 uncounterable psychic powers (this is basically what they are) that have 3-4 different effects? How many orders are there really? man that is beyond a bargain - it's NUTs! How and there are some regimental orders too! Are you serious?

To be fair, they're actually replacements for the lack of auras, than they are psychic powers. So it may be better to think of them as aura bonuses, but they can only be given to 1 (or 2, for HQs) units instead of all of them within 6", so they're more powerful.

But you have auras. You have haker / MOA / ect. Not to mention everything can shoot better just by being Cadian. 90 points for 3 CC and you can spread you army out and don't have to death-ball. Space marine captain can reroll all hits for 3 command points for like 90ish points but his range is limited - having him affect more than 2 units means he has to not use his CC abilities (he is a cc character) and your other units have to gather around him (which sucks for objective play) orders are better than auras all day because they come on cheap bodies (unless we are talking about guilliman).

Harker is a special character, and MOA (assuming you meant MOO) works only on Artillery, who can't otherwise receive orders (and explicitly is forbidden from benefiting the artillery that can receive orders - Gun Carriages). We also have an aura on Yarrick, just for a complete listing, but he is also a special character. And yes, we do have army traits, I hope that's unsurprising.

So yes, they're replacements for Auras, save on special characters or units that do have auras, but lack orders (wow, a pattern!). As for how the army functions: well, yes, guard spread out on the table, and marines concentrate. Concentrating 2000 points into a smaller area is a good thing because it improves force concentration, although if you can't bring it to bear correctly then it's a hinderance. But that's neither here nor there.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Okay I'll tell you why it's unfair. They are uncounterable psychic powers that can be used more than once in a turn. Their cost is very small. Just the fact that you are filling an HQ slot for 30 points is already a little wonky but you are also getting 2 uncounterable psychic powers (this is basically what they are) that have 3-4 different effects? How many orders are there really? man that is beyond a bargain - it's NUTs! How and there are some regimental orders too! Are you serious?

There's 7 Orders base, with one single Order for each Regiment, with 2 Regiments getting Tank Orders instead.
4 of those Orders are conditional.
FRFSRF requires the unit to have Lasguns or Hotshot Lasguns--HWS receive no benefits from it, nor do Vets armed with Shotguns or Autoguns or anyone in a squad armed with a Pistol or Special.
Forwards for the Emperor requires the unit to have Advanced; it allows for you to shoot normally.
Get Back in the Fight allows for a unit to shoot this phase if they Fell Back.
Fix Bayonet requires you to be within 1" of an enemy unit and allows for them to fight as though it's the Fight phase.

Lets compare the cadian take aim order to the eldar psychic power guide...
Oh look. They have the exact same effect except 1 can only target infantry squads (dark reapers are also infantry) and guide is a 7 to cast power (suggesting that is is a very powerful spell) most spells go off on 6's.

Since I don't know exactly what Guide does off the top of my head, nor is what you're trying to say(do you think Cadian Officers can issue "Take Aim" to vehicles? Is that what you're implying here?) actually reasonably spelled out here...

"Take Aim!" is a basic Order for the Imperial Guard. It allows for an Infantry Squad with the same <Regiment>(meaning it does not apply to Scions taken outside of an all Scions detachment) as the user to reroll hit rolls of 1 for all the models in the ordered unit.

Now, Cadians have their Doctrine "Born Soldiers" that makes it so that an Infantry unit with this doctrine that gets issued "Take Aim" and if the unit had not moved in the previous Movement phase? They go from rerolling hit rolls of 1 to rerolling all Hit rolls.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

Said it before, saying it again:
People hate Orders. I don't know why but they think it's "unfair" and give anecdotes of a single Officer buffing huge swathes of an army.

I think we'd be better off if the whole system was overhauled from the ground up and adding another 'level' of Officer.

Senior Officer--HQ
Junior Officer--Elite
NCO--Troop(but don't count as mandatory Troop options)

Senior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' with his Order(shooting buff, CC buff, or a survival buff)
Junior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' that has to tie in with the Senior Officer's Order(so a shooting buff, CC buff, or survival buff has to have a similar one).
NCO has an aura that he grants to Infantry Squads near him.

Tank Commander becomes 'Armoured Element Senior Officer', does the same deal but no CC buff--instead it becomes a ROF buff.
A Junior Officer with the same deal.
NCO as a Heavy Support choice with the same deal.

Could even go so far as to add in a Sentinel equivalent.

Its funny how upset that you have an officer giving orders to 1-2 squads which is seen as "crazy" but people have no issues with a DP buffing itself and every unit around it. I must just be missing all those mono guard lists running around just crushing tournaments.

 Galas wrote:


Not really. Theres a reason why Soup armies just spam the most OP part of every mono-faction. You don't see Blood Angels Tanks and Dante with Sanguinary Guard + Rough Riders and Veterans on Chimeras winning tournaments, because the problem isn't with soup but with X units being OP. And we see it with Mono Dark Eldar armies or Mono-Craftworld Eldar ones (Yeah, a Craftworld army with one Ynnari character is still a CWE Army) winning agaisnt soup without a problem.

If mono factions are balanced... the difference in power from souping would be marginal, because it woul become more of a strategic choice than a power one.

To be fair, there are issues beyond just certain units being overpowered with Soup, there is a fair amount of unintended synergy. As an example, Guard being a strong gunline is one thing. Guard serving as a strong gunline anvil and CP generator for swift and resilient Custodes Jetbike captains is a different thing even if all units in question were balanced within their own books. Custodes, as an army, are intended to be small in numbers with a few powerful strategems to reinforce a couple key units as particular points in the battle, when they can use another faction to offset that numbers issue and have all the bodies they want and get extra CP generation to use their power abilities whenever they want, thats not an issue you can fix just by fixing powerful units, thats an inherent army concept issue.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

They should probably do something different - like extend the range of orders or something
The base chasis need to go up on all russes. T8 12 wounds - is huge - you should have to pay for that resilience - not to mention their grinding advance rule. Gaurd shoot better on the move than eldar? Does that make any sense?

Little about the Russ tank actually makes any sense

However, as to the Eldar comparison, only if we're insisting on the concept that everything Space Elf must be superior just because. Eldar were not, until relatively recently at least, an army where everything was an expert marksman with eldritch targeting systems, they were a majority BS3 army for the overwhelmingly vast majority of the games existence.

Ultimately, we can look at it this way, a heavy, generally slow moving ground vehicle (if it wants to make use of all those rules) with multiple dedicated gun crew that serves as the premier armored unit of *the* tank faction should probably have some things to make it stand out. I dont have a conceptual problem with that being a more stable firing platform than a wibbly-wobbly hovertank zipping around at high speed thats getting tossed around by every near miss blast with two weekend warrior crewmen.

In real life, when looking at such platforms, say Attack helicopter vs Tank, the groundbound tank can run around at highway speeds and hit a similar sized target also moving at highway speeds at several kilometers distant with a single shot 90%+ of the time, while a the helicopter has to rely on guided munitions to accomplish the same feat.


As is, many of the Russ variants never see use, of the Codex versions, we basically only see 3 of 7 turrets see routine use (BC, Executioner, Punisher) the others might as well not exist even though they have radically different roles than those that do see use, its hard to argue that theres a fundamental platform issue with the Russ hull as a result.

As for the T8, relative to something like a Predator (since its the only , they're already paying 35% more for the base hull (122pts vs 90) with a lower base Ballistic skill, it would seem they're paying more already, that resiliency isnt coming for free.

Some things you mentioned don't need to go up - some of them do though. How can you seriously say the manticore doesn't need to go up in cost?

Given how rarely it makes an appearance in army lists these days, it doesnt appear to be a particular issue. Their popularity has plummeted since the first few months of 8E, and the value of that indirect fire is highly variable depending on table and opponent. They just dont appear to be a major issue, in the thread about what units need a CA points adjustment from last week, I think only one post even mentioned them over 5 pages.

Asmodios wrote:

Its funny how upset that you have an officer giving orders to 1-2 squads which is seen as "crazy" but people have no issues with a DP buffing itself and every unit around it. I must just be missing all those mono guard lists running around just crushing tournaments.

The argument that always gets used is that "it's easy to kill the aura characters!" but somehow you can't kill the Officers...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

Said it before, saying it again:
People hate Orders. I don't know why but they think it's "unfair" and give anecdotes of a single Officer buffing huge swathes of an army.

I think we'd be better off if the whole system was overhauled from the ground up and adding another 'level' of Officer.

Senior Officer--HQ
Junior Officer--Elite
NCO--Troop(but don't count as mandatory Troop options)

Senior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' with his Order(shooting buff, CC buff, or a survival buff)
Junior Officer puts on an 'armywide aura' that has to tie in with the Senior Officer's Order(so a shooting buff, CC buff, or survival buff has to have a similar one).
NCO has an aura that he grants to Infantry Squads near him.

Tank Commander becomes 'Armoured Element Senior Officer', does the same deal but no CC buff--instead it becomes a ROF buff.
A Junior Officer with the same deal.
NCO as a Heavy Support choice with the same deal.

Could even go so far as to add in a Sentinel equivalent.

Okay I'll tell you why it's unfair. They are uncounterable psychic powers that can be used more than once in a turn. Their cost is very small. Just the fact that you are filling an HQ slot for 30 points is already a little wonky but you are also getting 2 uncounterable psychic powers (this is basically what they are) that have 3-4 different effects? How many orders are there really? man that is beyond a bargain - it's NUTs! How and there are some regimental orders too! Are you serious?

Lets compare the cadian take aim order to the eldar psychic power guide...
Oh look. They have the exact same effect except 1 can only target infantry squads (dark reapers are also infantry) and guide is a 7 to cast power (suggesting that is is a very powerful spell) most spells go off on 6's.

Guide can be cast on a wraithknight, the best squad take aim can be cast on is either a 3-lascannon HWT or a 50% chance for a conscript blob. Guide also increases eldar shooting by 66% while Cadian take aim increases guard shooting by 50%. Cadian Take Aim also requires the unit to not move in the movement phase, otherwise it is reroll 1s.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Its funny how upset that you have an officer giving orders to 1-2 squads which is seen as "crazy" but people have no issues with a DP buffing itself and every unit around it. I must just be missing all those mono guard lists running around just crushing tournaments.

The argument that always gets used is that "it's easy to kill the aura characters!" but somehow you can't kill the Officers...

I know its crazy to me that people can't see that guard commanders orders are simply our version of aura abilities then just affect fewer squads for slightly more versatility.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Galas wrote:


Not really. Theres a reason why Soup armies just spam the most OP part of every mono-faction. You don't see Blood Angels Tanks and Dante with Sanguinary Guard + Rough Riders and Veterans on Chimeras winning tournaments, because the problem isn't with soup but with X units being OP. And we see it with Mono Dark Eldar armies or Mono-Craftworld Eldar ones (Yeah, a Craftworld army with one Ynnari character is still a CWE Army) winning agaisnt soup without a problem.

If mono factions are balanced... the difference in power from souping would be marginal, because it woul become more of a strategic choice than a power one.

To be fair, there are issues beyond just certain units being overpowered with Soup, there is a fair amount of unintended synergy. As an example, Guard being a strong gunline is one thing. Guard serving as a strong gunline anvil and CP generator for swift and resilient Custodes Jetbike captains is a different thing even if all units in question were balanced within their own books. Custodes, as an army, are intended to be small in numbers with a few powerful strategems to reinforce a couple key units as particular points in the battle, when they can use another faction to offset that numbers issue and have all the bodies they want and get extra CP generation to use their power abilities whenever they want, thats not an issue you can fix just by fixing powerful units, thats an inherent army concept issue.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
At 138pts, we'd see the Basilisk fly right back onto the same shelf it spent the preceding 5 editions.

Not sure why Hydras, Manticores, Tauroxes, Exterminators, Bane Wolfs, Wyverns, Hellhounds, Deathstrikes, Vanquishers, Demolishers, Devil Dogs, etc all need to cost more

If HQ officers only get one order, whats the point of the Elites slot junior officer?

They should probably do something different - like extend the range of orders or something
The base chasis need to go up on all russes. T8 12 wounds - is huge - you should have to pay for that resilience - not to mention their grinding advance rule. Gaurd shoot better on the move than eldar? Does that make any sense?

Little about the Russ tank actually makes any sense

However, as to the Eldar comparison, only if we're insisting on the concept that everything Space Elf must be superior just because. Eldar were not, until relatively recently at least, an army where everything was an expert marksman with eldritch targeting systems, they were a majority BS3 army for the overwhelmingly vast majority of the games existence.

Ultimately, we can look at it this way, a heavy, generally slow moving ground vehicle (if it wants to make use of all those rules) with multiple dedicated gun crew that serves as the premier armored unit of *the* tank faction should probably have some things to make it stand out. I dont have a conceptual problem with that being a more stable firing platform than a wibbly-wobbly hovertank zipping around at high speed thats getting tossed around by every near miss blast with two weekend warrior crewmen.

In real life, when looking at such platforms, say Attack helicopter vs Tank, the groundbound tank can run around at highway speeds and hit a similar sized target also moving at highway speeds at several kilometers distant with a single shot 90%+ of the time, while a the helicopter has to rely on guided munitions to accomplish the same feat.


As is, many of the Russ variants never see use, of the Codex versions, we basically only see 3 of 7 turrets see routine use (BC, Executioner, Punisher) the others might as well not exist even though they have radically different roles than those that do see use, its hard to argue that theres a fundamental platform issue with the Russ hull as a result.

As for the T8, relative to something like a Predator (since its the only , they're already paying 35% more for the base hull (122pts vs 90) with a lower base Ballistic skill, it would seem they're paying more already, that resiliency isnt coming for free.

Some things you mentioned don't need to go up - some of them do though. How can you seriously say the manticore doesn't need to go up in cost?

Given how rarely it makes an appearance in army lists these days, it doesnt appear to be a particular issue. Their popularity has plummeted since the first few months of 8E, and the value of that indirect fire is highly variable depending on table and opponent. They just dont appear to be a major issue, in the thread about what units need a CA points adjustment from last week, I think only one post even mentioned them over 5 pages.

How in anyway can you remotely defend that a LR with BC is remotely balanced. It out shoots a quad lascannon predator, hammerhead, a vanquisher against T7 3+Sv and outshoots a autocannon heavybolters predator against GEU and MEU as tau don't exactly have a anti infantry hammerhead.

Also you say a predator hull is 90 points but a russ is 122 so why does a russ pay 22points for a double shooting battlecannon but a knight pays 100points foe the same?