What are the requirements to use a strategem?

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**Headlss**

Can any dark elf use agents of vect?

Can eldar? They share a key word.

Can anyone?

bawlmeat wrote:
Headlss wrote:
Manfried wrote:
You still have to have a dark eldar detachment in order to unlock dark eldar strategems so that is not accurate.

I mean that makes sense but where does it say that?

your counterpoint is ridiculous, and you know it. youre using hyperbole to make a bad point.

its very simple: every other kabal/cult/coven specific stratagem *specifically states* in the text of the stratagem which units must be present in the army/on the tabletop in order to use the strat - agents of vect very clearly does not follow this very simple formatting rule/system seen with the other stratagems. now this is likely due to an oversight on behalf of GW, mistakes happen after all, but beyond a tourney specifically house-ruling (which apparently most are doing) that a player must have a BH detachment in order to use agents of vect, according to the rule written on the strat itself, no, you very clearly do not need to.

Of course my counter point is ridculous. I think your point is ridiculous.

But you are right, as written, on that rule you don't need to have anything on the table. Thats becuase it affects your opponent and not you. So it doesn't specify what kind of model it targets. But it does clearly say its a black heart strategem.

Now since your argument is you can use black heart strategems with out black heart units, my obvious, next logical step is to say "why can't an Ultramarie army use it, they don't have any black heart units either." There is no text on that strategem that says you need dark elfs.

You think thats dumb, I agree. My "show me where it says you can't do that" comment was an appeal for someone to find the rules to prevent that. Its probably in the base rules about strategems.

**Yarium**

Check at the top of the page in the Stratagems section. It likely has something that says "If your army is Battle Forged and includes at least one Drukhari detachment, you may use these Stratagems". Outside of that, the RAW currently is that you can indeed use it without the matching Kabal type, as you have one sections saying "you can use these stratagems", which allows access to it. Every other Kabal stratagem can be used, but you can't because you need to target that Kabal/Cult/whatever for it to have any effect. Agents of Vect doesn't.

That said, general practise at kitchen tables is that you need the matching Kabal to use it, and without that Kabal you should not be using it. For tournaments, speak with the TO first.

**nekooni**

If you're asking purely RAW: Sure. Knock yourself out.

Be aware though that it's supposed to require a detachment of the correct faction and subfaction, but it doesn't. You should check with the TO (if going to a tournament) or with the other players if they're OK with you interpreting it that way.

HIWPI: If you want to use a subfaction specific stratagem, you need a detachment of that subfaction. same for faction specific stratagems.

**Headlss**

Yarium wrote:
Check at the top of the page in the Stratagems section. It likely has something that says "If your army is Battle Forged and includes at least one Drukhari detachment, you may use these Stratagems". Outside of that, the RAW currently is that you can indeed use it without the matching Kabal type, as you have one sections saying "you can use these stratagems", which allows access to it. Every other Kabal stratagem can be used, but you can't because you need to target that Kabal/Cult/whatever for it to have any effect. Agents of Vect doesn't.
.

It does indeed say that (auxiliary detachments excpted). Thank you.

I'm not sure if I am relieved or disappointed the Girlyman won't be using the Agents of Vect.

**meleti**

This is like assault weapons we all know the intent.

**BaconCatBug**

See my sig. Any Dark Eldar army can use Agents of Vect. This is both RaW and "RaI".

**Silentz**

BaconCatBug wrote:
See my sig. Any Dark Eldar army can use Agents of Vect. This is both RaW and "RaI".

Assuming, of course, that you choose to believe that the massive bold KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART STRATAGEM written directly after the title of the stratagem is just irrelevant flavour text

**BaconCatBug**

Silentz wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
See my sig. Any Dark Eldar army can use Agents of Vect. This is both RaW and "RaI".

Assuming, of course, that you choose to believe that the massive bold KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART STRATAGEM written directly after the title of the stratagem is just irrelevant flavour text

Please, show me in the codex where it says that part is a restriction. Page number citation please.

**Silentz**

I refuse to properly engage in your pointless pedantry any more, I'm afraid.

You take the Walter Sobchak approach to 40k, I take the dude's approach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGWuOAgU7jI

The wording is clearly a restriction on what faction can use it. They didn't write it for fun, they wrote it to show which faction the stratagem is available to.

BUT I agree that they didn't write it in the bulletproof technical language you would like them to have done.

You're not wrong, Walter.

**BaconCatBug**

Silentz wrote:
The wording is clearly a restriction on what faction can use it.

If it's so clear, you shouldn't have any problem showing me in the codex where it says this.

**Silentz**

BCB do you live anywhere near Manchester?

Not offering you out btw I would quite like to play a game vs you.

**Mr. Shine**

Silentz wrote:
BCB do you live anywhere near Manchester?

Not offering you out btw I would quite like to play a game vs you.

I imagine that could be a lucrative event to stream.

**JohnnyHell**

Mr. Shine wrote:
Silentz wrote:
BCB do you live anywhere near Manchester?

Not offering you out btw I would quite like to play a game vs you.

I imagine that could be a lucrative event to stream.

I’ll run a book on how little of the game will be completed in the allotted time. ‘Sig Bingo’ will be a great side game. Drink every time someone says “by that logic”. YMDC Live could be a fun channel!!!

**tneva82**

Silentz wrote:
BCB do you live anywhere near Manchester?

Not offering you out btw I would quite like to play a game vs you.

Please do. Would be funny to see "i play 100% raw" wiggle in video as his lies would be exposed. He didn't even pick lie that could be true but took lie that is lie automaticallly

**Aelyn**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Silentz wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
See my sig. Any Dark Eldar army can use Agents of Vect. This is both RaW and "RaI".

Assuming, of course, that you choose to believe that the massive bold KABAL OF THE BLACK HEART STRATAGEM written directly after the title of the stratagem is just irrelevant flavour text
Please, show me in the codex where it says that part is a restriction. Page number citation please.

Whether or not this is RAW, if that line is there, it means you're stretching quite a bit to claim it's RAI.

**Silentz**

For me, that is RAW and RAI in one

Just to add that BCB and I are going to try and get a game in on Tabletop Simulator. I am looking forward to it. Just need to work out how to use TTS first!

**tneva82**

So how that differs to knight strajegems that has house raven means oniy house raven can use it?

**Valkyrie**

tneva82 wrote:
So how that differs to knight strajegems that has house raven means oniy house raven can use it?

From what I can tell the RAW dispute falls into two points:

1: Unlike most strategems this doesn't actually need a particular unit or faction on the board, ergo you could argue any army could use it.

2: The other point being made is that while it says "Kabal of the Black Heart Strategem", BCB and others are arguing that that can be interpreted as just a descriptive subheading, there is no RAW statement that the subheadings dictate who can and can't use the strategem.

**meleti**

Silentz wrote:
BCB do you live anywhere near Manchester?

Not offering you out btw I would quite like to play a game vs you.

My head canon is that BCB hasn’t ever finished a game of 8th because he can’t get through a turn without a long winded argument about RAW.

**BaconCatBug**

Valkyrie wrote:
From what I can tell the RAW dispute falls into two points:

1: Unlike most strategems this doesn't actually need a particular unit or faction on the board, ergo you could argue any army could use it.

2: The other point being made is that while it says "Kabal of the Black Heart Strategem", BCB and others are arguing that that can be interpreted as just a descriptive subheading, there is no RAW statement that the subheadings dictate who can and can't use the strategem.

You are indeed correct, this is exactly how the rule works. Unless we get an errata or Special Snowflake FAQ, Agents of Vect can be used by ANY army that unlocks Dark Eldar Stratagems.

**tneva82**

meleti wrote:
Silentz wrote:
BCB do you live anywhere near Manchester?

Not offering you out btw I would quite like to play a game vs you.

My head canon is that BCB hasn’t ever finished a game of 8th because he can’t get through a turn without a long winded argument about RAW.

Well certainly if he really would play 100% raw as he insists he hasn't played any to full as it's impossible. Might have started but eventually hits part where rules don't cover it and either game freezes or they have to decide how to play, thus violating 100% raw.

Funny thing is there's virtually no groups that play exactly identical 40k without even considering deliberate bigger changes

**BaconCatBug**

I have played many games of 8th with pure RaW, just as I have played many games of 8th where I have graciously allowed my opponent to suggest house rules, because I am a nice guy.

There are only two situations afaik that "break" the game causing it to crash and burn (Multiple wounded models and Gate of Infinity iirc), so I avoid doing those in my games.

In any case, I have reported this thread and asked for it to be locked. The OP has been answered and it's devolved into nothing but rudely insulting posts directed at myself (and by extension anyone who plays by the rules).