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We've had racism before within the Federation.

Sometimes certain factions deciding that they don't want certain races to join (one of the original series movies was set about an assassination attempt to stop the Klingons joining/reaffirming their loyalty). It's always been there, its just often only a one episode or rare thing or a background element. Plus not something that always came up in the series.

That said DATA did have it in spades when they ran a court case to determine if he was alive and if they could dismantle him. Riker had to argue the case against him and even Picard had to get pushed down a notch by DATA during one talk in the episode.



I said it earlier/somewhere that in the Federation jobs are a very important thing. Because income is only a loose concept (ship captains and admirals appear to get better than lower ranks, but its really hard to tell what the actual divides are); a person's job is really very much part of their identity within the Federation. If you do X then X is basically your life that you've dedicated yourself toward. No matter what it is long term job security does appear to be a thing, with most showing long term status in their roles and far less job jumping.

If you bring androids along there's a chance that they keep getting made over and over and over and suddenly you aren't needed for your job. What's your identity and role in life if you don't have that. We saw some of that with our one drug addict - someone who loses their position in life entirely. Picard was the same, only he retreated in luxury of a sort; though both clearly "suffered" for their "retirement" in different ways.


There's often been contention at new groups joining the Federation; heck the Marquis joining the Voyager ship was a contentious point for a good long while. Same as Seven of Nine joining the crew.

BrianDavion wrote:

Voss wrote:
But it also has widespread xenophobia, poverty and drug addiction resurging out of nowhere, after each and every captain of each series telling us those things have been completely eliminated...

Wide spread anti-romulan xenophobia is hardly new to the federation though. if you watch a few key TNG and DS9 episodes you can definatly see signs that this is pretty well.. normal.

Indeed. TNG/DS9 both had references to "spoonheads" (Cardassians) and "ridgeheads" (Klingons), both of which ARE racial epithets for two of the major alien races. As well as contempt for all "lesser" races (Augments, Romulans).

 Overread wrote:
Just a point but "drugs are not a problem" doesn't have to mean there are no drug users. Just that the issue is so tiny that it doesn't really register as a problem at the general population level. There could still be thousands of abusers and users and problem people, but they are spread really really thin over the whole population. Thus making it an "invisible" issue to the population at large.

and then there's the fact that drug use may not be viewed as a problem so long as it's done in moderation remember, TNG got it's start in the late 80s during the height of the war on drugs. sentiment on drugs have evolved and become a bit more nuanced since then. I mean.. IIRC Raffi was growing plants on her porch and smoking something. for all we know her drug use is basicly the 24th centuries answer to pot.

It’s also covered in DS9.

Benjamin Sisko wrote:On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, and no war. You look out the window and you see Paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in Paradise but the Maquis do not live in Paradise.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s also covered in DS9.

Benjamin Sisko wrote:On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, and no war. You look out the window and you see Paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in Paradise but the Maquis do not live in Paradise.

yeah I posted a video of that entire quote. among others, as I said Picard does nothing DS9 didn't do 20 years ago

Fair dos

Picard does add to it though. We see one of Starfleet’s greatest and most noble son’s deal with the corruption.

Did he knowingly turn a blind eye before? Were his various missions sufficient to stop him seeing the corruption?

Importantly, with the first season down we’ve a chance to better explore a Starfleet post Dominion War, which is what I’ve wanted ever since DS9 ended.

Voyager gets a sort of pass. I don’t think it’s very good, but it did supply Standard Trek for those wanting it.

Enterprise was unforgivable in that regard, nevermind I didn’t enjoy it it wasted everything DS9 built up.

Picard? First season is clearly about us catching up with the man himself, as the same amount of time has passed in our world and Canon.

Second season holds more promise of exploring stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking a bit more?

Given the events we know happened, how much did Starfleet de-militarise?

The design of the Defiant class amply demonstrates that when they’re arming for war, they simply do not mess around. Compact, equally armed and armoured. To the point they overtax the power systems.

And we see some of that reflected in the Sovereign class and it’s contemporaries.

Yet, with end of that war and the fall of Romulus, The Federation was left with relatively few enemies. Sure, the Klingons and Cardassians could be seen as tenuous allies, and not necessarily entirely trustworthy. But the bonds of war where the Alpha Quadrant fought together isn’t something easily ignored.

One could argue that a continued militaristic design ethos could be seen to be provocative to their allies. My train of thought here is that it could well be enough to have proven military capacity, and then dial it back. The mailed fist in the velvet glove if you will.

But what did The Federation & Starfleet actually do? Did they largely disarm? Did they exploit a war weary quadrant to spread their creed? Think back to Quark and Garrak’s little chat about how badly that could’ve gone wrong.

Lots to explore. Give the writers a chance.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Yet, with end of that war and the fall of Romulus, The Federation was left with relatively few enemies. Sure, the Klingons and Cardassians could be seen as tenuous allies, and not necessarily entirely trustworthy. But the bonds of war where the Alpha Quadrant fought together isn’t something easily ignored.

One could argue that a continued militaristic design ethos could be seen to be provocative to their allies. My train of thought here is that it could well be enough to have proven military capacity, and then dial it back. The mailed fist in the velvet glove if you will.

But what did The Federation & Starfleet actually do? Did they largely disarm? Did they exploit a war weary quadrant to spread their creed? Think back to Quark and Garrak’s little chat about how badly that could’ve gone wrong.

Lots to explore. Give the writers a chance.

One could easily draw parallels to a post-Cold War era US military for themes and elements to choose from. During the Cold War, the US was "keeping up with" the USSR. . . the federation up through the wars of DS9 can largely be seen in the same terms: her ships must keep up with the Romulans, Klingons and others.

After this, you have a significant power dropping away, and with it, the overt need for such military strength. . . does the greater power draw itself down? Does it stick to its ideals? Or does it continue on the path it set itself on in time of war?

Given the fleet we see at the end of Picard has two elements

1) The ships are clearly much more warlike - even Riker is admitting that the ship he is on is at the top of the battlefleet.

2) The ship are uniform constructions. Now we can argue this was to make it quicker for a TV crew to make a whole fleet cheaper for high definition modern TV. However at the same time I think its a reflection that Starfleet has bulked up its fleet considerably in a very short span of time. So the ships were assembly line built to the same/similar specifications. Rather than ad-hock ships built to different specifications for different core roles.


In the past many of their ships were mult-role - science, research, study, first contacts, battle, exploratory etc... The Enterprise D even had children and families on board. The ships of Original Series to DS9 first half (or so) were all ships made with multiple roles in mind and battle was only one of many. The result is that they were not warships and the crews, whilst having battle training, were not warriors in the same sense.

During the Dominion War the Federation starts the Defiant Program - making an actual warship (several in the end) and also starting to train crews who were specifically warriors first.

We see some hints of this continuation with the Enterprise E, though its still a multi-role flagship. We then get a seriously stark reminder of how its not a warship when the Romulans then actually go and build a full capital ship sized warship - 3 warp cores, more guns than most fleets etc...



So in Picard I think what we are seeing is the culmination of a Cold War Arms Race. The Federation had its "WWII" in the Dominion War - it then had its odd cold war with the Romulans escalate to an actual full armed conflict (even if it was only two ships involved).
I think the Federation has armed up significantly. The continued Borg threat and the shockwaves of the Dominion War (which lets again remember is one of the biggest actual wars the Federation has ever had); has likely bred a need in the Federation to have its own army. To not rely on allied races who might fall from grace or even debate and argue (lets not forget Klingons were not joining in easily and even when they did they often wanted to do their own thing in the Dominion Wars - they looked for glory in battle not tactical strikes all the time).




The Federation has a warfleet now. A top end warfleet built by the faction in its sector which arguably has the most resources and is affluent enough that they can make that costly investment. Indeed we get no hint that the Federation is economically harmed even after the events on Mars - which was again another massive event close to home that has likely also spurred the desire within the Federation to be able to police its own systems.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s also covered in DS9.

Benjamin Sisko wrote:On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, and no war. You look out the window and you see Paradise. Well, it's easy to be a saint in Paradise but the Maquis do not live in Paradise.

yeah I posted a video of that entire quote. among others, as I said Picard does nothing DS9 didn't do 20 years ago

I'd also add that nothing I've seen of Picard makes it look remotely as intelligent or thoughtful as DS9. It looks like more of Discovery's empty action porn. Seriously, sometimes throwing a higher budget at the effects department does not make something better.

DS9 had several seasons to work with though. A lot of the deeper moments are born of very gradual and steady changes that play out over multiple seasons. I think that it also didn't have as hard a start because we didn't need a recap on 20 years of the Federation.

Timeline wise it happens pretty much right after TNG; even the crew we get from that series don't need much of an introduction because they just transfer from the Enterprise to DS9 so we already know their most recent history and past.

At the start DS9 is "reasonably" standard Startrek too. Once the station is established we fairly quickly enter the "alien of the week from the wormhole". It was pretty normal ST that evolved through its own various series into something deeper and different.


Picard takes a very familiar character, but then jumps over a decade into the future during very changing times for the Federation and the Sector in general. So its got the double hit that its only got one very short season to work with and has a lot of ground to cover. One could argue that perhaps they tried to do too much all at once; however in contrast a good few people did complain about its slower start and its gradual build up - and that's with them doing lots of stuff. I think a REALLY slow and gradual build up might have failed in terms of entertainment.

Perhaps if the first season was double the length they might have had more room.

Finally got around to starting on this one... Been itching to check it out, but haven't had time. Only the first episode so far, but enjoying it. It's certainly a different tone to previous Trek, even Discovery, but it works.

The opening song was a nice 'Aaaaawwwww' moment, tying back to Nemesis.

The song is a continuing theme through the season.

 Overread wrote:
Given the fleet we see at the end of Picard has two elements

1) The ships are clearly much more warlike - even Riker is admitting that the ship he is on is at the top of the battlefleet.

2) The ship are uniform constructions. Now we can argue this was to make it quicker for a TV crew to make a whole fleet cheaper for high definition modern TV. However at the same time I think its a reflection that Starfleet has bulked up its fleet considerably in a very short span of time. So the ships were assembly line built to the same/similar specifications. Rather than ad-hock ships built to different specifications for different core roles.


In the past many of their ships were mult-role - science, research, study, first contacts, battle, exploratory etc... The Enterprise D even had children and families on board. The ships of Original Series to DS9 first half (or so) were all ships made with multiple roles in mind and battle was only one of many. The result is that they were not warships and the crews, whilst having battle training, were not warriors in the same sense.

During the Dominion War the Federation starts the Defiant Program - making an actual warship (several in the end) and also starting to train crews who were specifically warriors first.

We see some hints of this continuation with the Enterprise E, though its still a multi-role flagship. We then get a seriously stark reminder of how its not a warship when the Romulans then actually go and build a full capital ship sized warship - 3 warp cores, more guns than most fleets etc...



So in Picard I think what we are seeing is the culmination of a Cold War Arms Race. The Federation had its "WWII" in the Dominion War - it then had its odd cold war with the Romulans escalate to an actual full armed conflict (even if it was only two ships involved).
I think the Federation has armed up significantly. The continued Borg threat and the shockwaves of the Dominion War (which lets again remember is one of the biggest actual wars the Federation has ever had); has likely bred a need in the Federation to have its own army. To not rely on allied races who might fall from grace or even debate and argue (lets not forget Klingons were not joining in easily and even when they did they often wanted to do their own thing in the Dominion Wars - they looked for glory in battle not tactical strikes all the time).




The Federation has a warfleet now. A top end warfleet built by the faction in its sector which arguably has the most resources and is affluent enough that they can make that costly investment. Indeed we get no hint that the Federation is economically harmed even after the events on Mars - which was again another massive event close to home that has likely also spurred the desire within the Federation to be able to police its own systems.

I don't see any reason there to assume the Federation has a whole "War Fleet" now. All the ships in the last episode probably look the same because the Utopia Planitia Shipyards were destroyed and they just don't have the capability right now to make a diverse fleet of ships. Ya there was a lot of ships at the end but Starfleet does have a lot of ships anyway. They would mention losing hundreds of ships at a time during The Dominion War. Which actually was another stupid part of PIcard. To destroy like 30 people The Romulans send like 230 warbirds or something. If they had sent one warbird and cloaked it that would have actually succeeded. Apparently The Romulan Star Empire which lost Romulus and has hundreds of warbirds lying around didn't have a big enough fleet to evacuate their home planet...

For now, my Head Canon is that Starfleet has reached a certain level of compromise.

By all means continue their scientific and humanitarian work, with ships as we knew them filling that role. But, also assembling and maintaining a fleet built for battle.

This is likely an endeavour to never be caught with their trousers down again. After The Borg & The Dominion rocking their poop over a pretty short period of time, the need for dedicated battleships is difficult to argue against - but not justification to abandon their original purpose.

It may also be a way to appease the Klingon Empire, now their closest and longest ally. After all, the Klingons suffered heavy losses during the Dominion War, and did much of the fighting as is their wont.

But I can see Martok urging the Federation to maintain some kind of battle fleet to preserve the alliance. After all, to not do so could (and given Klingon politics, probably would) be interpreted as a cowardly will to use Klingon warriors as a shield.

And on the flip side, they also have to deal with a resurgent, war seasoned Klingon Empire. Sure Martok is an honourable Warrior, unlikely to attack his ally just for the sake of a punch up. But he wouldn’t be Chancellor forever - and you can’t tell what his replacement might do. So again, keep a battle fleet of some kind to better nip any violence in the bud.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
They would mention losing hundreds of ships at a time during The Dominion War.

They did mention it - in "A Time to Stand" they say they lost 98 ships in one engagement ("out of 112 ships, only fourteen ships have returned"). I remember that because I recently re-watched it - I'm sure they said similar in other episodes. The Memory Alpha summary of the Dominion War says the Federation Alliance lost "Thousands of ships", but that includes the Klingons & Romulans.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For now, my Head Canon is that Starfleet has reached a certain level of compromise.

By all means continue their scientific and humanitarian work, with ships as we knew them filling that role. But, also assembling and maintaining a fleet built for battle.

This is likely an endeavour to never be caught with their trousers down again. After The Borg & The Dominion rocking their poop over a pretty short period of time, the need for dedicated battleships is difficult to argue against - but not justification to abandon their original purpose.

It may also be a way to appease the Klingon Empire, now their closest and longest ally. After all, the Klingons suffered heavy losses during the Dominion War, and did much of the fighting as is their wont.

But I can see Martok urging the Federation to maintain some kind of battle fleet to preserve the alliance. After all, to not do so could (and given Klingon politics, probably would) be interpreted as a cowardly will to use Klingon warriors as a shield.

And on the flip side, they also have to deal with a resurgent, war seasoned Klingon Empire. Sure Martok is an honourable Warrior, unlikely to attack his ally just for the sake of a punch up. But he wouldn’t be Chancellor forever - and you can’t tell what his replacement might do. So again, keep a battle fleet of some kind to better nip any violence in the bud.

Was there any mention of what Class Riker's ship was? I would accept there was an actual battlefleet if those ships were dedicated warships but I don't think anything like that is mentioned. The Defiant gets mentioned a lot as a completely out of the closet warship but it is quite small. More of patrol boat. I find The Akira Class to be a more convincing argument for the militarization of StarFleet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

beast_gts wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
They would mention losing hundreds of ships at a time during The Dominion War.

They did mention it - in "A Time to Stand" they say they lost 98 ships in one engagement ("out of 112 ships, only fourteen ships have returned"). I remember that because I recently re-watched it - I'm sure they said similar in other episodes. The Memory Alpha summary of the Dominion War says the Federation Alliance lost "Thousands of ships", but that includes the Klingons & Romulans.

I can't remember where I read it but I believe Starfleet lost about 600 ships in the war.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Was there any mention of what Class Riker's ship was?

Not on-screen. Michael Chabon (the screenwriter) identified the class as "a heavy cruiser: the Inquiry-class. That's the Zheng He."

Yeah with all that's going on it would be more surprising if the Federation did not have a warfleet now. Federation got to grow up in a bit of a bubble - mostly weaker/peaceful/more primitive races in a hub in the middle; with only some major war-like races on the boundaries. Most of which were at a point where they were stagnating after growth of their empires rather than growing.

So the Federation did have conflict, but never a vast war against a huge empire. Even the Klingons were on the down somewhat. They were also able to use few ships in smaller key engagements during the fights that they did have whilst also having experienced and competent captains.

The Borg began as a smaller, but continual growing threat; whilst the Dominion War was the first major scale war where they were fighting long term against an opponent who could not be cowed by a few starships appearing. Who were in the prime of growing their own empire, not at a state of stagnation where growth is more a small time political move to curry favour in polities.

It was invasion that wasn't just going to end with internal politics or political pressure.


Hot on the heels of that the Romulans then kick up a fuss and start to arm up again in an arms race. Arguably they emerge from the Dominion War pretty well. From what I recall they take losses, but unlike Cardassians, Federation or Klingons, they aren't in the thick of it. Barring the Nemesis film (which was more of a wildshot attack); I suspect the Romulans and Federation would have entered into a steady and active cold war situation - both sides arming up. The Supernova basically ended that, however its clear that both sides continued some degree of arming up. The Federation further spurred into life for that by the attack on Mars - a strike right at the heart of the Federation.


Federation has been beset with war and terrorism over a very short span of time. The Galaxy has become a lot more dangerous on the large scale. Building and maintaining their own protective fleet is just sound common sense. It's just the same when you play a 4* game and you emerge from the early growth phase and start to bump shoulders with other empires and wars start to break out. Suddenly you need to divert more money into warships (if you hadn't already) even if just to protect what you have.

 Overread wrote:
Yeah with all that's going on it would be more surprising if the Federation did not have a warfleet now. Federation got to grow up in a bit of a bubble - mostly weaker/peaceful/more primitive races in a hub in the middle; with only some major war-like races on the boundaries. Most of which were at a point where they were stagnating after growth of their empires rather than growing.

So the Federation did have conflict, but never a vast war against a huge empire. Even the Klingons were on the down somewhat. They were also able to use few ships in smaller key engagements during the fights that they did have whilst also having experienced and competent captains.

The Borg began as a smaller, but continual growing threat; whilst the Dominion War was the first major scale war where they were fighting long term against an opponent who could not be cowed by a few starships appearing. Who were in the prime of growing their own empire, not at a state of stagnation where growth is more a small time political move to curry favour in polities.

It was invasion that wasn't just going to end with internal politics or political pressure.


Hot on the heels of that the Romulans then kick up a fuss and start to arm up again in an arms race. Arguably they emerge from the Dominion War pretty well. From what I recall they take losses, but unlike Cardassians, Federation or Klingons, they aren't in the thick of it. Barring the Nemesis film (which was more of a wildshot attack); I suspect the Romulans and Federation would have entered into a steady and active cold war situation - both sides arming up. The Supernova basically ended that, however its clear that both sides continued some degree of arming up. The Federation further spurred into life for that by the attack on Mars - a strike right at the heart of the Federation.


Federation has been beset with war and terrorism over a very short span of time. The Galaxy has become a lot more dangerous on the large scale. Building and maintaining their own protective fleet is just sound common sense. It's just the same when you play a 4* game and you emerge from the early growth phase and start to bump shoulders with other empires and wars start to break out. Suddenly you need to divert more money into warships (if you hadn't already) even if just to protect what you have.

Is it though? I'm sure that's what the hawks are saying but actually seems like things are fine. As you've just shown they're biggest geo-political rival Romulus just got decapitated. The problems sure, but their doesn't seem to be war clouds forming on their borders anymore. To the point were they had to make a show that takes place before Kirk to get their war on again.

Now that could be what they're exploring. An analogy, not for Cold War America, but post Cold War America. Where chances of a global conflict are actually low but America's military industrial complex keeps chugging along. The Federation even has had a 9/11 type attack to keep it going. However, we shouldn't just assume that's what's happening. Could be happening, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt that its not because if its not I don't think there's much point to Star Trek anymore. Imperialistic, militaristic space empire is already covered in a lot of other universes - like Star Wars.

The Federation building a warfleet is a far cry from them becoming an "Imperialist Power". They aren't changing their core ethos, what they are doing is taking sensible precautionary steps toward forming a formal military force within their space fleet. Ships where the crew get more battle training than standard; where the number and armaments are clearly greater than in the past. A fleet that isn't there to impose imperial will or invade, but is there to protect the Federation and its interests against a Galaxy that is currently proving very dangerous.

Sure they've survived the Borg and Dominion Wars and terror attacks thus far. However I'd point out that thus far the Borg have never invaded en-mass. If they had sent even just two Cubes in their first invasion that would have wiped out the Federation in one go. Meanwhile the Dominion almost took on the the majority of the power players in the whole quadrant and nearly won.

The Federation might not have a fearful war on its hand right now, but clearly they've learned that its better to have and not need than to not have and need. An invader might not announce that they are on the way. The Borg might send an actual military style response of multiple cubes. The Cardassian's might rebuild and decide to start carving up some more empire for themselves. The Founders might go against the peace agreements and start their army up once again.

Starfleet/The Federation are also more aware of what else might be out there.

It seems they never really envisaged something like The Dominion existing, let alone it being hostile.

But now, that lesson is learned and then some. At the time, they had very, very few ships particularly well suited to a truly militaristic, organised foe.

They’ve also had Voyager stir up a Hornet’s Nest in the Delta Quadrant. Not just The Borg, but the potential of Species 8472 making a pre-emptive strike. Perhaps with The Dominion suffering defeat, their control over the Gamma Quadrant is loosened. What might the fall out there be? Reneging on the peace treaty after a period of rearming? Resurgent former subjects of The Dominion invading?

The Galaxy is a different place to where we last saw it. Having a greater military presence is entirely understandable in the face of it.

 Overread wrote:
The Federation building a warfleet is a far cry from them becoming an "Imperialist Power". They aren't changing their core ethos,

Hrm, I think from a thematic standpoint of how Rodenberry envisioned the Star Trek universe and the original concept of the universe, that's a definite change. The Federation did not build warships, they didn't maintain fleets of vessels for the sole purpose of warfare. The Federation had conflict, they warred with the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, and others, encountered things of vast power and capability (such as the Doomsday Machine in TOS), but their ships were multipurpose with their destructive capabilities being secondary to other roles. The Defiant caused discomfort for many by the very nature of its design, something tolerated only because of an imminent overwhelming threat and never entirely accepted, always seen as a niche exception of sorts. Purpose built warfleets is, I would argue at least, a notable character change for the Federation. "Imperialist" I don't think would be accurate, but there is an ethos shift there for sure.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Given the fleet we see at the end of Picard has two elements

1) The ships are clearly much more warlike - even Riker is admitting that the ship he is on is at the top of the battlefleet.

2) The ship are uniform constructions. Now we can argue this was to make it quicker for a TV crew to make a whole fleet cheaper for high definition modern TV. However at the same time I think its a reflection that Starfleet has bulked up its fleet considerably in a very short span of time. So the ships were assembly line built to the same/similar specifications. Rather than ad-hock ships built to different specifications for different core roles.


In the past many of their ships were mult-role - science, research, study, first contacts, battle, exploratory etc... The Enterprise D even had children and families on board. The ships of Original Series to DS9 first half (or so) were all ships made with multiple roles in mind and battle was only one of many. The result is that they were not warships and the crews, whilst having battle training, were not warriors in the same sense.

During the Dominion War the Federation starts the Defiant Program - making an actual warship (several in the end) and also starting to train crews who were specifically warriors first.

We see some hints of this continuation with the Enterprise E, though its still a multi-role flagship. We then get a seriously stark reminder of how its not a warship when the Romulans then actually go and build a full capital ship sized warship - 3 warp cores, more guns than most fleets etc...



So in Picard I think what we are seeing is the culmination of a Cold War Arms Race. The Federation had its "WWII" in the Dominion War - it then had its odd cold war with the Romulans escalate to an actual full armed conflict (even if it was only two ships involved).
I think the Federation has armed up significantly. The continued Borg threat and the shockwaves of the Dominion War (which lets again remember is one of the biggest actual wars the Federation has ever had); has likely bred a need in the Federation to have its own army. To not rely on allied races who might fall from grace or even debate and argue (lets not forget Klingons were not joining in easily and even when they did they often wanted to do their own thing in the Dominion Wars - they looked for glory in battle not tactical strikes all the time).




The Federation has a warfleet now. A top end warfleet built by the faction in its sector which arguably has the most resources and is affluent enough that they can make that costly investment. Indeed we get no hint that the Federation is economically harmed even after the events on Mars - which was again another massive event close to home that has likely also spurred the desire within the Federation to be able to police its own systems.

I don't see any reason there to assume the Federation has a whole "War Fleet" now. All the ships in the last episode probably look the same because the Utopia Planitia Shipyards were destroyed and they just don't have the capability right now to make a diverse fleet of ships. Ya there was a lot of ships at the end but Starfleet does have a lot of ships anyway. They would mention losing hundreds of ships at a time during The Dominion War. Which actually was another stupid part of PIcard. To destroy like 30 people The Romulans send like 230 warbirds or something. If they had sent one warbird and cloaked it that would have actually succeeded. Apparently The Romulan Star Empire which lost Romulus and has hundreds of warbirds lying around didn't have a big enough fleet to evacuate their home planet...

in fairness we've never seen those ships before so they're likely "new builds"
Also because I've heard this before I've done some math.

ok, so Let's assume Romulus has a population of 1 Billion people (note that's pretty small) a Galaxy class ship has an evacuation capacity of 15,000 people. if you do the math you realize that even if the romulans had a fleet numbering at over 4000 galaxy class equivilants they'd still not have sufficant ships/

Finished Picard recently, and I liked it. I agree at the times it didn't feel very 'Star Trek' with lots of dark choices and it had bit too much social commentary. Also ending was bit weak, that story take would have required one more episode to set it up. I think Elnor felt somewhat superfluous addition and could have been easily left out. I suppose they wanted to add more Romulans who weren't bad guys. As expected, lots of callbacks and fan service moments but they felt respectfully made, at least when compared to recent standard estabilished by JJ Abrams.

Call it maybe 7.5/10, overall. It was quite far from any Roddenberry vision, but as said that was true for DS9 as well.

BrianDavion wrote:
Also because I've heard this before I've done some math.

ok, so Let's assume Romulus has a population of 1 Billion people (note that's pretty small) a Galaxy class ship has an evacuation capacity of 15,000 people. if you do the math you realize that even if the romulans had a fleet numbering at over 4000 galaxy class equivilants they'd still not have sufficant ships/

This is touched upon in the prequel comics - it wasn't just the Romulan home system they were evacuating but colony worlds that were also at risk.

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Backfire wrote:
... and it had bit too much social commentary.

That seems like an odd complaint for Star Trek... Star Trek has always been about social commentary.

 insaniak wrote:

Backfire wrote:
... and it had bit too much social commentary.

That seems like an odd complaint for Star Trek... Star Trek has always been about social commentary.

Well yes. What I meant that it seemed bit too 'contemporary'. Kinda like that daft TNG episode about drugs.

Whenever people mention social commentary in star trek I'm always like...



Really...?

Backfire wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Backfire wrote:
... and it had bit too much social commentary.

That seems like an odd complaint for Star Trek... Star Trek has always been about social commentary.

Well yes. What I meant that it seemed bit too 'contemporary'. Kinda like that daft TNG episode about drugs.

But that's just the thing - most of the social commentary in old Star Trek was 'contemporary' when those episodes were actually made.

Indeed.

Trek’s social commentary has always been a la mode.