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For me, the singular reason against was that it would break canon. You would need to rewrite the Horus Heresy and almost all of the lore to explain this. However, this is based on the universes rule that the Emperors creation was perfect and could not be improved upon. If anything, it’s implied that the marines weakened over time. But once Cawl made the Primaris this assumption goes away. It means that the technology can be improved upon and changed. It’s not something written in stone. If anything, the Primaris are a far greater change to the lore of 40k (turning the Imperium from a regressive society into one that improves upon the Emperors work) than any theoretical change to the old lore that “oh the glands always worked on women.” or “oh the Emperor actually made female Primarches”. Those are really superficial changes by comparison. What Cawl did and what he represents is a lot more fundamental.

The main reason you would want to add female space marines is simple. Generally speaking, there’s a noted preference for seeing romanticised depictions of powerful warrior women in fiction. Because marines are 40k: they have the most factions, the bulk of the lore is about them and the core narrative centers almost exclusively on the a civil war between space marines. So if you wanted to include them then it makes sense to do it in the most popular armies.

Now there’s two arguments against this:

1) It would change the character of marines

2) You already have Sisters of Battle.

Now, there’s basically one answer to both of these questions. Each chapter or legion has its own distinct character and that is what is a large part of the appeal of Space Marines. This means that a female marine would be distinct from a Sister of Battle. For example, Marines are secular whereas the Sisters are not. The Sisters are explicitly an all female order whereas female marine would be part of a mixed force. So a female Black Templar might be pretty similar to a Sister. Although even here the Templars have a much greater Knightly/Crusader character than the Sisters do. It wouldn’t invalidate the Sisters reason to exist if you had female marines because they are a distinct army.

I’ll take one example. Space Wolves. Think about how popular Vikings is right now. People love their Norse mythology and that is absolutely what the appeal of the Wolves is. Part of Vikings appeal is that people quite like Lagatha and the other warrior maidens on that show. So, how would adding that into the Space Wolves undermine the core Viking character of the faction when its broadly an okay thing in something like Vikings? It’s also quite distinct from Sisters of Battle who are all about religious fantaticism. Just because it’s a warrior woman doesn’t mean it’s the same. Like wise, it wouldn’t change the essential character of the Space Wolves if they did this. They’re still Space Vikings regardless of if some of them are women.

You can basically apply this rationale to any other army be it Blood Angels or Ultramarines. The character of a chapter is distinct enough that you can apply it to any female warrior and they would still be distinct from Sisters of Battle.

Oh look this thread again, guess its about that time of year. Ill just go ahead and post my copy past response as to my stance of why im not for the idea of female space marines.


So the reason im against the female space marines is because it does not really make sense in the setting of the imperium, where they are fighting a galactic war. Making a female space marine would requier more time and energy. Think of it like trying to make a tuner car. If you start with a WRX, you are going to get a better performing car then if you started with a corolla. Thats not to say the corolla wont be able to perform just as good as a wrx, but its gonna need a lot more work.

Second the space marines were all based off the primarchs which were based off of the Big E, which was a dude.

Third, and this one i personally was told and i find it really interesting. The reason they dont have female space marines is because of the risk of them becoming fertile. If you have a male and female space mairne that have the ability to produce off spring you could potentially make space marines via natural birth, which then comes to the problem of space marines could reach a point of, why the feth do we need regular humans? Or even in general, if you could have male and female all be space marine, why not turn all of humanity into them? The space marines were not meant to be a replacement for humanity.

Thats my copy pasta, always like to get my two cents in but, i putting 5 bucks on this thread going down the tubes by page 3.

Every time this thread comes up I feel compelled to say the same thing: Yes, I would absolutely love that, and it would actually compel me to buy some loyalist scum!

It would allow people who wanted to add them to their army to be able to do so without expensive and laborious conversions. And if you didn't want female marines, you don't buy them. It's win/win!

The other issues are the amount of people who would freak out about it. I imagine a vocal minority would throw a right fit.

The other problem is that like it or not it's a significant change to the lore and for it to be something that isn't a giant mess it needs to be done properly. Do you trust GW to do that?

Personally the only thing I have to complain about is what you'd replace the term battle brother would as brother seems to be the most common way for them to refer to each other and that's an easy fix.
I just don't think GW's capable of handling it.

If you want to model and paint you Space Marines as female then do it. No one is stopping you.
The only benefit I see in GW producing Female Space Marine models is the bitz. My Orks require new heads as tropes to decorate their WAAAAAGH Banners..

Diversity is pointless if it's restricted to human diversity in a setting as large as Warhammer 40,000.
I would much prefer more Xenos races over more human anything.

Like the usual answer to these threads. No. You can have diversity plenty throughout the galaxy, but the only real reason for it to be SM is to forcefully shoehorn it in.

 warhead01 wrote:
If you want to model and paint you Space Marines as female then do it. No one is stopping you.
The only benefit I see in GW producing Female Space Marine models is the bitz. My Orks require new heads as tropes to decorate their WAAAAAGH Banners..

Diversity is pointless if it's restricted to human diversity in a setting as large as Warhammer 40,000.
I would much prefer more Xenos races over more human anything.

Well if you look at Stormcasts then they would look different.

Hey - now don't start that again!

Pretty sure they already have an army called sisters of battle - they are literally female space marines.

If you so desire - you can just use those models (being updated next year) with space marine stats. No one will have a problem with it. Were pretty much done here right?

There were two legions of female Space Marines, the Second and the Eleventh.

Neither legion survived the first rounds of PMS, and all records were Exterminated.

Before the thread get locked, yes we should have some.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Like the usual answer to these threads. No. You can have diversity plenty throughout the galaxy, but the only real reason for it to be SM is to forcefully shoehorn it in.

I didn’t use the word diversity.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
If you want to model and paint you Space Marines as female then do it. No one is stopping you.
The only benefit I see in GW producing Female Space Marine models is the bitz. My Orks require new heads as tropes to decorate their WAAAAAGH Banners..

Diversity is pointless if it's restricted to human diversity in a setting as large as Warhammer 40,000.
I would much prefer more Xenos races over more human anything.

Well if you look at Stormcasts then they would look different.

I'm not seeing how that connects to what I posted.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty sure they already have an army called sisters of battle - they are literally female space marines.

They are literally not space marines at all.
Not the same armor, not the same genetic changes, not the same organization, not the same mentality.
The only thing they have in common in they use the same bolters...

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Like the usual answer to these threads. No. You can have diversity plenty throughout the galaxy, but the only real reason for it to be SM is to forcefully shoehorn it in.

I didn’t use the word diversity.

There was no argument otherwise then just "Let's have some powerful warrior women, so lets change the fluff because they are the most common army" rather then say.. "Lets add more powerful women"

 warhead01 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
If you want to model and paint you Space Marines as female then do it. No one is stopping you.
The only benefit I see in GW producing Female Space Marine models is the bitz. My Orks require new heads as tropes to decorate their WAAAAAGH Banners..

Diversity is pointless if it's restricted to human diversity in a setting as large as Warhammer 40,000.
I would much prefer more Xenos races over more human anything.

Well if you look at Stormcasts then they would look different.

I'm not seeing how that connects to what I posted.

Because it would take a lot of work to convert existing stuff and the end result likely wouldn’t be as good as if GW made the stuff. It would also cost more to make in monetary terms as well as just time. So it’s not just a case of getting out a file shaving some plastic off or a headswap.

The Stormcast models are a good case where people started doing that with a head swap and then they came out with the models that were very distinct. So you then have the added risk of investing all that time and effort only to have it invalidated.

There are costs and risks of making your own stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Like the usual answer to these threads. No. You can have diversity plenty throughout the galaxy, but the only real reason for it to be SM is to forcefully shoehorn it in.

I didn’t use the word diversity.

There was no argument otherwise then just "Let's have some powerful warrior women, so lets change the fluff because they are the most common army" rather then say.. "Lets add more powerful women"

It doesn’t change the fluff if Cawl invents something new with the Primaris. That’s advancing the story.

They aren’t just the most common army, Marines are Warhammer 40K.

No I quote examples with the Space Wolves and compare it to Vikings. That’s an argument.

The fact you’ve assumed I am arguing from a position of encouraging diversity means you haven’t read my post.

I'm almost surprised they didn't go there with primaris. Cawl has already improved marines in many ways, and fixed some gene flaws (Space Wolves can have successors now, apparently). It wouldn't even be a retcon since primaris are distinct from the old marines in the fluff. Personally I'm not bothered either way, although I'd prefer to see female models for the guard and/or mechanicus as that wouldn't cause as many arguments on the internet.

Frankly, I'm not sure I like how the female Stormcast were handled, (though I'm pleased that they exist at all) and I definitely wouldn't want the female space marines (would such thing ever happen) to be handled in the same way. I mean that the female Stormcast are much more dainty than the males, they have shoulderpads of half the size. And the boobplate, though in that bothers me less than the daintyness, considering that the male Stormcast have chest muscle breastplates, so it kinda matches.

But if there were female marines, I'd want them to just have different heads.

(Oh, and Statuesque Miniatures makes excellent female marine heads.)

But yeah, regardless of whether one thinks that this is a good idea, Guilliman returning is definitely a way bigger setting change.

It doesn’t change the fluff if Cawl invents something new with the Primaris. That’s advancing the story.

They aren’t just the most common army, Marines are Warhammer 40K.

No I quote examples with the Space Wolves and compare it to Vikings. That’s an argument.

The fact you’ve assumed I am arguing from a position of encouraging diversity means you haven’t read my post.

Quite a few people weren't happy with how the Primaris were introduced either.

Also the Space Wolves Viking is.. Not so much an argument given that your hypothesis is "They won't change because they are vikings and vikings have the appeal of Warrior Maidens so nothing would really change about the core viking character". I mean sure, they might not change in that fashion. But it's a major change fluffwise as a Space Marine faction. And sure.. We could, but why though? Aside from "Space Marines are popular, add females through them"

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It doesn’t change the fluff if Cawl invents something new with the Primaris. That’s advancing the story.

They aren’t just the most common army, Marines are Warhammer 40K.

No I quote examples with the Space Wolves and compare it to Vikings. That’s an argument.

The fact you’ve assumed I am arguing from a position of encouraging diversity means you haven’t read my post.

Quite a few people weren't happy with how the Primaris were introduced either.

Also the Space Wolves Viking is.. Not so much an argument given that your hypothesis is "They won't change because they are vikings and vikings have the appeal of Warrior Maidens so nothing would really change about the core viking character". I mean sure, they might not change in that fashion. But it's a major change fluffwise as a Space Marine faction. And sure.. We could, but why though? Aside from "Space Marines are popular, add females through them"

Yeah im still booty bothered by cawl marry sue.

Also daily reminder, old school space wolf lore, they had shield maidens at one point. They were not warriors they were just there for space wolves to bump ugly with.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:
If you want to model and paint you Space Marines as female then do it. No one is stopping you.
The only benefit I see in GW producing Female Space Marine models is the bitz. My Orks require new heads as tropes to decorate their WAAAAAGH Banners..

Diversity is pointless if it's restricted to human diversity in a setting as large as Warhammer 40,000.
I would much prefer more Xenos races over more human anything.

Well if you look at Stormcasts then they would look different.

I'm not seeing how that connects to what I posted.

Because it would take a lot of work to convert existing stuff and the end result likely wouldn’t be as good as if GW made the stuff. It would also cost more to make in monetary terms as well as just time. So it’s not just a case of getting out a file shaving some plastic off or a headswap.

The Stormcast models are a good case where people started doing that with a head swap and then they came out with the models that were very distinct. So you then have the added risk of investing all that time and effort only to have it invalidated.

There are costs and risks of making your own stuff.

Where is your dedication?
Costs? you do know how expensive this hobby is right?
Head swaps would be acquitted wouldn't they? If you are modeling your entire collection because it is important to you then how would it be invalidated. But I think this goes back to a lack of dedication.
Now before you get upset at what I just said, I am thinking about true scale marines. There are several members of the B&C who model their miniatures that way because it's what they want out of their models.
It's not a short term project so no instant rewards. But with some green stuff to make masters you could produce your own torso variants at a low const and add a head swap to finish the models off.
If it is important to you then with a littl planning and a little money all those dreams of Female Space Marines can come true!

All those great threads with 3-5 replies and this gets 20 replies in 35 minutes.
Guys, this wont go away if we dont stop giving it attention.

GW already makes female Space Marines. Go check out the Stormcast Eternal model line. There are some females mixed in there.
They actually aren't too bad either. Typically you expect huge boob-armour, tiny waists and that sort of thing, but GW has apparently figured out how to be more subtle about it recently.
Just slap some bolters and power packs on them and you are done.

-

I'm all for more female representation in the fluff but I just don't see the purpose of trying to force a change in the established canon to make female space marines. Same holds true for trying to allow male Sisters of Battle. It doesn't really add anything and it just seems to step on the established canon more than augmenting the setting.

I wonder if space marines where a relatively minor faction in 40k instead of the poster child of the setting, would this even be an issue?

Let's be real here for a second. The only reason GW does (or doesn't do) anything is because of the perceived effect on the bottom line. GW is one of the most ruthlessly commercial organisations that exists. If they believe there is money to be made they will do something.

What GW are probably trying to balance on this particular subject is the possible extra sales generated by female Marines against the losses incurred by those who are so offended they leave the hobby. The offended parties aren't just 'female hating space marine players' either. As a xeno player I would be pissed to see more resource poured into models of the Imperium.

Personally I don't think there is enough demand to justify female marines, hence why Sisters players have had to wait until now for an update and hence why there are no female guardswomen lines. I assume that female storm casts and daughters of khaine are a market test exercise in the viability of female lines.

Also if they decide to do a female marine type range, I really hope they have a purpose and aren't just shoehorned in to existing chapters for no obvious reason other than to appease certain demographics. There needs to be a story element.

 Vankraken wrote:

I wonder if space marines where a relatively minor faction in 40k instead of the poster child of the setting, would this even be an issue?

That is definitely a big part of the issue. You argue that it is equality that there is one all male faction (Marines) and one all female faction (the Sisters) but that really is not the case as there are like five thousand variant marine armies and the fluff is like 90% about them. Which really is a problem even outside the gender issue...

Why I don't want them?
Simple, I know GW and they'll take the limited time the designers have to make new Ork models and dedicate that time to make even more Space Marine models that we don't need more of.

The other option is just to say you have female space marines. I mean realistically they would be the same genetically modified hulking space marines...
And the female armour boob plate thing is a myth anyways. Male and female space marines would wear the exact same armour anyways so with the helmets on you couldn't tell.

Flamephoenix182 wrote:
...so with the helmets on you couldn't tell.

Even with helmets off you might not be able to tell. With all the potential testosterone and other added hormones used to make the modifications "stick" it's not likely for a female marine to look very feminine. They also aren't likely to have longer hair or wear make-up.

Attractive female models are best left to Eldar and Elves imo.

-

Female space marines would look the exact same as male ones. Space Marines are so post-human they wouldn't retain any sexual dimorphism.