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Can people please stop using "science" to try to try to justify why only men can become SM. A SM becomes one because of mcguffins stuffed in their body causing massive changes to the body beyond just getting bigger and stronger (spitting acid). It's like trying to say only a man can become a classical werewolf, whether the manwolf version or turning into an actual wolf. Getting bit by a radioactive spider will likely only send someone to an ER, depending on the type of spider. You will only get to climb walls and lift 10 tons if you are the character in a fictional world that allows it.

Asmodios wrote:
1) A female that goes through the process to become a SW is going to look exactly like a SW

It's fiction so a woman who goes through the process to become a Space Wolf is going to look exactly… like the person who wrote the fiction intend her to look like. And honestly, if it was me writing the fiction, it would mean different heads, and the rest is the same armor so you don't have any idea if they look different or not. Which, you know, is likely how they would do it, because it is exactly how they did female Tau, and it was awesome. Also this would open for some shieldmaiden/valkyries inspired all-female unit with storm and spears, wouldn't that be cool?

Asmodios wrote:
2) A Female that goes through the process to be a BA is going to look exactly like a BA

It's fiction so a woman who goes through the process to become a Blood Angel is going to look exactly… like the person who wrote the fiction intend her to look like. And honestly, if it was me writing the fiction, it would mean different heads, and the rest is the same armor so you don't have any idea if they look different or not. Which, you know, is likely how they would do it, because it is exactly how they did female Tau, and it was awesome.

Asmodios wrote:
3) A Female that goes through the process to be a WS is going to look exactly like a WS

It's fiction so a woman who goes through the process to become a White Scar is going to look exactly… like the person who wrote the fiction intend her to look like. And honestly, if it was me writing the fiction, it would mean different heads, and the rest is the same armor so you don't have any idea if they look different or not. Which, you know, is likely how they would do it, because it is exactly how they did female Tau, and it was awesome.

Asmodios wrote:
What you want is over sexualized versions of SM chapters

How is this over-sexualized?

 Crimson wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

1. No its because males have much more testosterone as well as brains developed in a way that make men on average more aggressive and prone to violence. Men are not larger and more agressive because society tells them to grow big and fight

And I did not suggest anything of the sort. This was about you claiming that women are more emotional, which is bs.

2. No, the prequels were terrible because of awful acting (female and male) and truly bad character development all around. It's hard to nail down exactly what made those movies bad because there is just so much that made them bad. The new movies have 2 very simple and easily identifiable reasons why 1. A complete disregard for physics (arching Laser in space and opening bomb doors to drop bombs)

Sure.

2. Diversity for the sake of diversity A. Rye defeating the strongest jedi in the galazy with no training B.

Said 'strongest jedi' (I mean, I guess it technically counts if you're the only jedi..) newer had any proper lightsabre training either, and was old and out of practice.

Leia suddenly being able to superman through space despite never using a force power for the dozens of situations she could have in past movies C.

In the past movies she didn't even know she was force sensitive. She has obviously learned since then. Also, it is probably relatively easy to fly in zero G, even a minimal amount of power will move you.

tons of more examples like these two but you get the point

Oh, I do get your 'point'... If there are powerful female characters involved, any flaw, real or imaginary, is attributed to that.

3. Primarus happened to up the scale of marines thats

And added several new organs. And fixed some gene flaws. But who's counting.

4. It isnt an "either or" its a "fits and doesn't fit". More female guard makes sense from a fluff and business standpoint. More SOB makes sense from a fluff and business standpoint. Female SM doesn't make sense fluff-wise. It would make it necessary to retcon the entire lore of 40k SM as well as having females in SM for no reason.

Cawl found a way to make the process to work on females. In fact, the plans for it were already in Emperor's notes, but he got stabbed by Horus before he could finidh that part of the work. Done. Certainly way less stupid that many other things that have happened in the fluff recently.

Without completely overhauling what a SM is a theoretical female SM would look identical to a male SM thus unless you wanted to add over sexualized SM it doesnt even make sense from a buisness standpoint. Which if GW makes over sexualized SM then im going to have to sort through the hundreds of dakka posts every week complaining about boob plates on SM

Sure, no boobplate. Merely slightly more feminine heads, that's all.

No it's not "any small flaw" with the female character. It's them being able to do things that the background suggests they shouldn't because of... Girl power and stuff. For example the girl from rouge one was a badd . She also had a backstory that explained everything she was able to do. Leia, on the other hand, had dozens of dire situations where she might have died and could have used force powers but all of a sudden boom. Rey picks up a lightsaber and beats a guy that's been training since birth because.... Reasons.
Yes thats the back story for primarus. The were introduced to increase the scale of SM models
So you admit that a head swap is all you would need. And anyone could just headswap if they wanted to get said effect. But nope we should change 20 years of established lore to add women "when we already have an established woman faction" because feminist 40k comes and raids dakka once a weak. Also, we should spend more time doing this switch and remove time that could be added to simply making more SOB and female guardsman

 lolman1c wrote:
Please learn to qoute me in context.
I said:

"Honestly, I say this a lot, why would you even want female space marines when Sisters of Battle exist? They're seriously awesome... and no joke. When the new models come out I will buy buying them (depending on price) because I love the idea of such strong soldiers who don't need all that marine cheating stuff".

Which was a joke saying that marines are lame steroid abusers with all the flavours of a Saturday morning cartoon character, while sisters are awesome. I wasn't comparing the two by saying they were similar. I was saying one is clearly cooler.

I find Sisters cooler too, but a lot of people seriously argue in this thread that female marines are unneeded because Sisters of Battle replace them just fine. I wanted to show it wasn't the case.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
1) A female that goes through the process to become a SW is going to look exactly like a SW

It's fiction so a woman who goes through the process to become a Space Wolf is going to look exactly… like the person who wrote the fiction intend her to look like. And honestly, if it was me writing the fiction, it would mean different heads, and the rest is the same armor so you don't have any idea if they look different or not. Which, you know, is likely how they would do it, because it is exactly how they did female Tau, and it was awesome. Also this would open for some shieldmaiden/valkyries inspired all-female unit with storm and spears, wouldn't that be cool?

Asmodios wrote:
2) A Female that goes through the process to be a BA is going to look exactly like a BA

It's fiction so a woman who goes through the process to become a Blood Angel is going to look exactly… like the person who wrote the fiction intend her to look like. And honestly, if it was me writing the fiction, it would mean different heads, and the rest is the same armor so you don't have any idea if they look different or not. Which, you know, is likely how they would do it, because it is exactly how they did female Tau, and it was awesome.

Asmodios wrote:
3) A Female that goes through the process to be a WS is going to look exactly like a WS

It's fiction so a woman who goes through the process to become a White Scar is going to look exactly… like the person who wrote the fiction intend her to look like. And honestly, if it was me writing the fiction, it would mean different heads, and the rest is the same armor so you don't have any idea if they look different or not. Which, you know, is likely how they would do it, because it is exactly how they did female Tau, and it was awesome.

Asmodios wrote:
What you want is over sexualized versions of SM chapters

How is this over-sexualized?

Spoiler:

So you want GW to release FM space mariens that are really just a head swap that there are already 100s of heads to choose from. Ad no the lore dictates what a person going through that process is going to look like. You would need complete rewriting of the lore and completely change the process of making a SM so it would make sense that female characteristics would for some reason develop under those conditions.

So in essence lets rewrite 20 years of lore for what amounts to a head swap all in a move that wont make GW any more money.

In a game world where half the appeal is designing your own characters for wish fulfillment power fantasy, we're egregiously past the point where there's any real justification for power armored super humans being a boys only club. Half the established power armored super humans are basically a result of talented hobbists inserting their self image on the original blank canvas that is marines. Saying that its okay for marines to be wolves, or vampires, or whatever but not girls is just a decades old mindset at this point.

Asmodios wrote:
The new [Star Wars] movies have 2 very simple and easily identifiable reasons why 1. A complete disregard for physics

I can't stop laughing, that applies to literally every Star Wars movie ever.

Wow! again this topic.

Whelp here we go again:

Why should there be fem marines? There's plenty of female representation in wh40k (SoS, SoB, chaos daemons, eldar, dark eldar, etc.). Will female space marines attract more females to 40k? i think not because they would be here already if they were interested.

Space marines are a brotherhood, a boys club (made out of the emperor --> primarchs --> space marines), it's written in the holy fluff why change it for a fringe of a fringe group.

Caving in to (emotional) blackmail is never good. What prevents all those 1000s upon 1000s of females (ahem.) that would be interested in fem marines to build their marines and say, this is susan and that is betty? do they want boobplates? because that is also a no-no according to feminism.

female marines are unnesscary, what is nesscary is to have more female representation in the factions that allow it, female guardsmen, plastic sisters etc.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
The new [Star Wars] movies have 2 very simple and easily identifiable reasons why 1. A complete disregard for physics

I can't stop laughing, that applies to literally every Star Wars movie ever.

No while things like "pew sound" ignore physics in all movies those are clearly added so your not watching a silent film and thinks like lightsabers are there for the rule of cool. Things, like arching laser beams and using open bomb doors and gravity in space, is a bridge too far. Suspension of reality is necessary for any sci-fi film there's a difference between that and just.... well what the most recent star wars was.

BrianDavion wrote:
female marines are unnesscary, what is nesscary is to have more female representation in the factions that allow it, female guardsmen, plastic sisters etc.

That I agree with. Its like asking for there to be a male Slayer in buffy the vampire slayer for 'representation' that is not representation that is just hamstringing it. It makes little sense to throw it in.

The only necessary thing is to have more interest factions.

I hate this discussion it always ends up with peoples tribalism getting in the way of good discussion :/

Esasb wrote:
Wow! again this topic.

Whelp here we go again:

Why should there be fem marines? There's plenty of female representation in wh40k (SoS, SoB, chaos daemons, eldar, dark eldar, etc.). Will female space marines attract more females to 40k? i think not because they would be here already if they were interested.

Space marines are a brotherhood, a boys club (made out of the emperor --> primarchs --> space marines), it's written in the holy fluff why change it for a fringe of a fringe group.

Caving in to (emotional) blackmail is never good. What prevents all those 1000s upon 1000s of females (ahem.) that would be interested in fem marines to build their marines and say, this is susan and that is betty? do they want boobplates? because that is also a no-no according to feminism.

^
Exactly its a no win situation to add them

Asmodios wrote:
No while things like "pew sound" ignore physics in all movies those are clearly added so your not watching a silent film and thinks like lightsabers are there for the rule of cool. Things, like arching laser beams and using open bomb doors and gravity in space, is a bridge too far. Suspension of reality is necessary for any sci-fi film there's a difference between that and just.... well what the most recent star wars was.

Arching laser beams are there for the rule of cool and gravity in space is fine as long as it's only inside the ships but not fine when it's also out of the ship?

The only thing that bugged me in the new Star Wars was Leia flying in space.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Please learn to qoute me in context.
I said:

"Honestly, I say this a lot, why would you even want female space marines when Sisters of Battle exist? They're seriously awesome... and no joke. When the new models come out I will buy buying them (depending on price) because I love the idea of such strong soldiers who don't need all that marine cheating stuff".

Which was a joke saying that marines are lame steroid abusers with all the flavours of a Saturday morning cartoon character, while sisters are awesome. I wasn't comparing the two by saying they were similar. I was saying one is clearly cooler.

I find Sisters cooler too, but a lot of people seriously argue in this thread that female marines are unneeded because Sisters of Battle replace them just fine. I wanted to show it wasn't the case.

Like I said, it's literally just because Sisters get no attention. Now by next year this won't be an issue and I suspect these threads will die down by 75%.

 LunarSol wrote:
In a game world where half the appeal is designing your own characters for wish fulfillment power fantasy, we're egregiously past the point where there's any real justification for power armored super humans being a boys only club. Half the established power armored super humans are basically a result of talented hobbists inserting their self image on the original blank canvas that is marines. Saying that its okay for marines to be wolves, or vampires, or whatever but not girls is just a decades old mindset at this point.

Wow you play this game for a power fantasy and wish fulfilment that’s weird dude

The rest of us over here will just continue playing our game, painting our models and enjoying the cheesy romp that is the fluff.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Like I said, it's literally just because Sisters get no attention. Now by next year this won't be an issue and I suspect these threads will die down by 75%.

And like I said, how will Sisters going out change anything for people who are found of viking and want some female space wolves? How will it change things for people who are found of Mongols and want some female White Scars? And so on. Generally, how will it make things better for people who want female space marines as opposed to “any models as long as it's women”?

I started a thread just like this last week after reading the article on bols and being appalled by its responses. I was equally appalled after my thread was closed down within hours opening because of “a dozen or more” complaints. There is a problem in this hobby. I can on,y talk about 40k as I dont play other games really.

Having female marines is important. And I’m going to say it, it’s important because of diversity. Because of equality. We don’t have equality, all things are not equal. Women are underrepresented in all walks of life. They need to represented more. We have to actively do this. There are lots of ways of doing it.

I think it matters in 40k because it is a chunk of life that is very under represented. I don’t think having female marines would see a surge of women start playing, but when I got my daughter, who was interested in her dads hobby, the 40k starter set, there were no female characters in it all. No female models.

In the last thread I was literally told it was ok because of greyfax, Celestine, sisters of battle and a drawing in the guard codex. But that’s a joke. Two characters and a heavily stereotypical female trope based army that hasn’t been touched in 6 editions. We need female marines because they are the poster “boys” of 40k. That’s where we need the strong female characters. They are needed elsewhere too. Female admech models, lots in the fluff, non in plastic. Female guard models. Nids and necrons are exempt by being asexual.

Worst of all though is the anger this topic openned up. And that the anger got the conversation closed down. The anger and the scale of response shows there is an issue in the community. Sexism is its name. And the angry minority I hope it’s a minority’s but ain’t sure) shouting and crying in the internet stops us being able to discuss that, so the problem isn’t going to go away.

All the usual complaints are here, it’d break the fluff, “they’ve” got sisters, why no male sisters of battle, pseudo science and psychology about hormones and male behavioural traits. It’s the same patriarchal rubbish we have heard about any gender dispute.

I think the better way to phrase the question is, what harm would having females in the principle faction in 40k do?

I was told not to reopen my thread or leave it a while and expect the same response. People had accused me of trolling. I’m not. I have a genuine concern. I’m not going to take to the streets and protest. But I am going to keep talking about how to make our hobby more inclusive.

FYI I am a white middle class straight man. But I’m also the single father to a daughter growing up in an uneven world where she will face hardships she would have if she had been a boy. Any small step to balance that world out helps. Other fathers of daughters on here have messaged me saying the same thing. Video games, films, books all figured this out a while ago and stormcast show that Gw has too. It’s just too scared to pull the trigger in 40k. What’s best about the stormcast females is that they aren’t a big deal. They aren’t a whole separate section in boob armour. They are just there. The same as the men, no explanation needed. That’s a good example.

pm713 wrote:
The only thing that bugged me in the new Star Wars was Leia flying in space.

I really don't get how that can be an issue. She has had decades to refine some rudimentary force powers, (we know she was force sensitive), and moving things in zero G requires very minimal amount of... eh... force.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
gravity in space is fine as long as it's only inside the ships but not fine when it's also out of the ship?

Yeah, that's called artificial gravity. That's a common theme in sci-fi.
Its a theoretical concept that scientists tried to experiment with irl; the idea is that if you have a rotating mechanism you can create your own gravitational field. That's how the artificial gravity worked in the film 2001 A Space Odyssey; the spacecraft there had a centrifuge that generated gravity.

What is unheard of is for gravity to suddenly decide to exist out in the vacuum of space, enough for bombs to slowly drop down with no proportion mechanism, which is how bombs in star wars are supposed to work (see: Proton Torpedoes).

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
No while things like "pew sound" ignore physics in all movies those are clearly added so your not watching a silent film and thinks like lightsabers are there for the rule of cool. Things, like arching laser beams and using open bomb doors and gravity in space, is a bridge too far. Suspension of reality is necessary for any sci-fi film there's a difference between that and just.... well what the most recent star wars was.

Arching laser beams are there for the rule of cool and gravity in space is fine as long as it's only inside the ships but not fine when it's also out of the ship?

You can create artificial gravity in space.... we already do it. A beam of light not only never archs it simply dissipates over time.... this is especially bad because nothing will arch in the void of space. Its especially bad because this hasn't happened in any star wars movie to date but was thrown in for.... well honestly I can't think of a reason. It wasn't cool, it didn't even look cool, it was simply distracting and just terrible. Even the part where they dropped the bombs out of the spaceship, all they really needed was a line about them being magnetic (even though this would have pulled them straight down and not on the path of a WWII flying fortress bomb) and at least one of those energy fields the hangars have used in every other movie to separate the void of space and the craft. Its like they hired someone that's never watched any sci-fi movie ever and especially not star wars and just said "yeah just do you best fanatic fans will ignore simple stuff we could have fixed in 5min and any 10-year old that's taken a science class could tell us is wrong"

 Crimson wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The only thing that bugged me in the new Star Wars was Leia flying in space.

I really don't get how that can be an issue. She has had decades to refine some rudimentary force powers, (we know she was force sensitive), and moving things in zero G requires very minimal amount of... eh... force.

She was frozen though. Pretty sure getting blown out into space by an explosion is really bad for your health. It was a bit of an ass pull, really.

 Formosa wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
In a game world where half the appeal is designing your own characters for wish fulfillment power fantasy, we're egregiously past the point where there's any real justification for power armored super humans being a boys only club. Half the established power armored super humans are basically a result of talented hobbists inserting their self image on the original blank canvas that is marines. Saying that its okay for marines to be wolves, or vampires, or whatever but not girls is just a decades old mindset at this point.

Wow you play this game for a power fantasy and wish fulfilment that’s weird dude

The rest of us over here will just continue playing our game, painting our models and enjoying the cheesy romp that is the fluff.

Larger than life heroes are a power fantasy regardless of how you slice it. The impossibly horrifying monsters and impossible odds; the massive scale; it all feeds into the fantasy. If it didn't, there's be no real need for wargaming beyond historicals.

Asmodios wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
No while things like "pew sound" ignore physics in all movies those are clearly added so your not watching a silent film and thinks like lightsabers are there for the rule of cool. Things, like arching laser beams and using open bomb doors and gravity in space, is a bridge too far. Suspension of reality is necessary for any sci-fi film there's a difference between that and just.... well what the most recent star wars was.

Arching laser beams are there for the rule of cool and gravity in space is fine as long as it's only inside the ships but not fine when it's also out of the ship?

You can create artificial gravity in space.... we already do it.

Citation needed? Pretty sure we still haven't worked out a functional artificial gravity mechanism, at least one that's practical to implement.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Like I said, it's literally just because Sisters get no attention. Now by next year this won't be an issue and I suspect these threads will die down by 75%.

And like I said, how will Sisters going out change anything for people who are found of viking and want some female space wolves? How will it change things for people who are found of Mongols and want some female White Scars? And so on. Generally, how will it make things better for people who want female space marines as opposed to “any models as long as it's women”?

Then they can make Viking Sisters of Battle and have an easier time thanks to plastic coming out. For all we know they're gonna have an order more focused on being up close anyway.

Like, it's that simple when plastic happens.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, that's called artificial gravity. That's a common theme in sci-fi.

Fictional, scientifically impossible artificial gravity is fine inside a ship, even a very very small one for just one person, but fictional, scientifically impossible a artificial gravity is not fine outside of a ship, on a rocket?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
the idea is that if you have a rotating mechanism you can create your own gravitational field.

What you mean, I think, is just having a ship that rotate, and have the centripetal force simulate gravity. That is not the case in Star Wars because the ships aren't rotating. It's especially obvious with small fighters.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What is unheard of is for gravity to suddenly decide to exist out in the vacuum of space, enough for bombs to slowly drop down with no proportion mechanism

Propulsion. Unheard of? So your problem is that the movie was innovative in sending a big middle finger to physics?

If AoS can have Femarines, so can 40k.

As long as massive boobplate like that SoB model:


LOL

 LunarSol wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
In a game world where half the appeal is designing your own characters for wish fulfillment power fantasy, we're egregiously past the point where there's any real justification for power armored super humans being a boys only club. Half the established power armored super humans are basically a result of talented hobbists inserting their self image on the original blank canvas that is marines. Saying that its okay for marines to be wolves, or vampires, or whatever but not girls is just a decades old mindset at this point.

Wow you play this game for a power fantasy and wish fulfilment that’s weird dude

The rest of us over here will just continue playing our game, painting our models and enjoying the cheesy romp that is the fluff.

Larger than life heroes are a power fantasy regardless of how you slice it. The impossibly horrifying monsters and impossible odds; the massive scale; it all feeds into the fantasy. If it didn't, there's be no real need for wargaming beyond historicals.

And guess what? Those larger than life heroes aren't always going to be exactly like you!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The only thing that bugged me in the new Star Wars was Leia flying in space.

I really don't get how that can be an issue. She has had decades to refine some rudimentary force powers, (we know she was force sensitive), and moving things in zero G requires very minimal amount of... eh... force.

She was frozen though. Pretty sure getting blown out into space by an explosion is really bad for your health. It was a bit of an ass pull, really.

It’s was ok for guiliman though? He’s a boy mind. Somtougher (sorry that was troll like).

Star Wars isn’t the same as 40k. It’s a story. That people have invented games about. 40k is a game full of stories. It’s easier to change. Powerful female characters aren’t a thing only found in new star wars films. They are everywhere and tend to work very well. Because women are more than capable of being very powerful and being the heroes of the stories.

Just trying to get it back on topic. It’s important.

Having female marines is important. And I’m going to say it, it’s important because of diversity. Because of equality. We don’t have equality, all things are not equal. Women are underrepresented in all walks of life. They need to represented more. We have to actively do this. There are lots of ways of doing it.

Thats not diversity though, that is shoehorning. Just like changing the sex of a female character or a male character just because of diversity is not a good goal or one we should strive for. There are fundamental differences between male and female socially and physiologically. To ignore that is to ignore being human.

And the best way to achieve more diversity is to create something new. Not borrow from the old.

why no male sisters of battle

Because they are literally a LOOP hole for the Religious arm of the imperium to have a military. No men shall bare arms, so they don't use men, they use women.

We need female marines because they are the poster “boys” of 40k. That’s where we need the strong female characters. They are needed elsewhere too. Female admech models, lots in the fluff, non in plastic. Female guard models. Nids and necrons are exempt by being asexual.

The thing is though. You could do something new. just saying "Oh I want them to the posterboys as well." Is childish, why not build something new, over editions instead of just shoehorning them in just because of diversity. I would be up in arms if someone changed the Slayer only female club into a homogenous title. That isn't interesting. Sometimes cultures are defined by their gender. To take that away removes their identity.

Giving them something else to stand in an order similar to the space marines, but female is a step closer in the right direction, just saying "well now the also have females" is lazy. All i've read in this thread is "Why not put females in." People read this lore to be immersed to flip on a dime and change decades of fluff because of a small minority then I don't think that is right.

We do need diversity but not this way.

It needs to be smart and written well, not just replacing a gender to fill a quota of diversity

But you are right we do need more female models. I agree, but that will take time as it alway does.