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Hi, I wanted your input on the Master Artisans Salamander's chapter tactic from the Space Marines codex.

First, I wanted to make sure about the wording, does it mean every time the unit shoots AND fights, or every turn ONCE when it shoots OR when it fights.

Also, when a Space Marine gets to shoot/fight after it has been slain thanks to an Ancient, does it count as a new phase? Does the chapter tactic applies here? Once or for every space marine that has been slain? I read that this ability is triggered one model at a time, creating a "new shooting(/fighting) phase" and thus the tactic triggers for every dead marine allowing as much rerolls, is that correct?

Same question with the Armorium Cherub, does the second sot happen in the same phase or in a different one?

Every time a unit shoots or fights it can reroll one failed hit.

So you can shoot in shooting phase with assault weapons, reroll a failed hit, then charge in and assault and reroll a failed hit with a melee weapon.

I'm not sure about Ancient but I don't think it would count as new phase.

Second shot for Cherub happens in same phase. it's just a reload.

The chapter tactic applies every time it shoots or fights. That means if it shoots or fights it gets a re-roll, it has nothing to do with phases or turns.

But the chapter tactic specifies that when a UNIT shoots/fights, one roll can be rerolled Is the unit shooting when shooting/fighting via ancient?

 skchsan wrote:
But the chapter tactic specifies that when a UNIT shoots/fights, one roll can be rerolled Is the unit shooting when shooting/fighting via ancient?

An Ancient allows a model to fire, not the unit. It's not clear, as is usual with GW writing.

My personal opinion is that granting permission for a model to shoot is not the same as granting permission for a unit to shoot, so the Salamanders tactic does not work with the Ancients rule because the tactic requires the Unit to be shooting.

Quote from http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/08/40k-salamanders-are-the-best-codex-chapter-fight-me-on-this.html :

Ancients are already totally amazing, anything that lets your guys attack after dying is great. In a Salamander list they are off the charts. The reason for this is simple, when your dying model makes his last attack, he gets to use the ability and make re-rolls. Since Chapter Ancients is resolved model by model, every model that dies and gets to attack will get to re-roll a hit and miss.

CypherF wrote:
Quote from http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/08/40k-salamanders-are-the-best-codex-chapter-fight-me-on-this.html :

Ancients are already totally amazing, anything that lets your guys attack after dying is great. In a Salamander list they are off the charts. The reason for this is simple, when your dying model makes his last attack, he gets to use the ability and make re-rolls. Since Chapter Ancients is resolved model by model, every model that dies and gets to attack will get to re-roll a hit and miss.

That's not an official GW statement.

I'd allow it, but RAW is unclear.

Personally I think you do get the re-roll because models are still part of a unit so the unit is shooting. You can't fire a model without firing a unit. Only one model in the unit has permission to fire, but the unit is still firing. That's my logic on it anyways.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Personally I think you do get the re-roll because models are still part of a unit so the unit is shooting. You can't fire a model without firing a unit. Only one model in the unit has permission to fire, but the unit is still firing. That's my logic on it anyways.

An ancient absolutely allows a model to fire/fight without the rest of the unit doing so.

As it is unclear, and a nearby ancient could potentially allow an entire unit to shoot while getting wiped, HIWPI with the Ancient is to only allow 1 reroll/ unit as a whole as they die to a single enemy unit's attacks. I.e. Sallie tac squad of 5 has a member die to the first shot fired by an enemy unit and ancient allows him to fire back; need to choose whether or not to risk the Sallies re-roll now and waste it on Bolter Marine #1, or wait to see if Plasma Marine gets killed and gets to return Fireto use it then(but never allow Bolter marine #1 to reroll and then Bolter Marine #3 to also reroll during the same enemy unit's shooting attack).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Personally I think you do get the re-roll because models are still part of a unit so the unit is shooting. You can't fire a model without firing a unit. Only one model in the unit has permission to fire, but the unit is still firing. That's my logic on it anyways.

An ancient absolutely allows a model to fire/fight without the rest of the unit doing so.

As it is unclear, and a nearby ancient could potentially allow an entire unit to shoot while getting wiped, HIWPI with the Ancient is to only allow 1 reroll/ unit as a whole as they die to a single enemy unit's attacks. I.e. Sallie tac squad of 5 has a member die to the first shot fired by an enemy unit and ancient allows him to fire back; need to choose whether or not to risk the Sallies re-roll now and waste it on Bolter Marine #1, or wait to see if Plasma Marine gets killed and gets to return Fireto use it then(but never allow Bolter marine #1 to reroll and then Bolter Marine #3 to also reroll during the same enemy unit's shooting attack).

I don't agree with how you would play it because each instance of the banner activating is an individual instance of the unit shooting meaning each activation would allow each guy to re-roll to hit and to wound. Each time the unit shoots or fights means EACH time the unit shoots or fights and every activation of the banner is a separate shooting attack made by models in a unit thus part of the unit is firing thus the unit is firing. If you restrict the banner to only work on one guy then it shouldn't work at all by that logic.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Personally I think you do get the re-roll because models are still part of a unit so the unit is shooting. You can't fire a model without firing a unit. Only one model in the unit has permission to fire, but the unit is still firing. That's my logic on it anyways.

An ancient absolutely allows a model to fire/fight without the rest of the unit doing so.

As it is unclear, and a nearby ancient could potentially allow an entire unit to shoot while getting wiped, HIWPI with the Ancient is to only allow 1 reroll/ unit as a whole as they die to a single enemy unit's attacks. I.e. Sallie tac squad of 5 has a member die to the first shot fired by an enemy unit and ancient allows him to fire back; need to choose whether or not to risk the Sallies re-roll now and waste it on Bolter Marine #1, or wait to see if Plasma Marine gets killed and gets to return Fireto use it then(but never allow Bolter marine #1 to reroll and then Bolter Marine #3 to also reroll during the same enemy unit's shooting attack).

I don't agree with how you would play it because each instance of the banner activating is an individual instance of the unit shooting meaning each activation would allow each guy to re-roll to hit and to wound. Each time the unit shoots or fights means EACH time the unit shoots or fights and every activation of the banner is a separate shooting attack made by models in a unit thus part of the unit is firing thus the unit is firing. If you restrict the banner to only work on one guy then it shouldn't work at all by that logic.

Model firing =/= unit firing.

While the RAW is unclear so it depends on how you interpret it, but I think your assumption is unjustified.

 skchsan wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Personally I think you do get the re-roll because models are still part of a unit so the unit is shooting. You can't fire a model without firing a unit. Only one model in the unit has permission to fire, but the unit is still firing. That's my logic on it anyways.

An ancient absolutely allows a model to fire/fight without the rest of the unit doing so.

As it is unclear, and a nearby ancient could potentially allow an entire unit to shoot while getting wiped, HIWPI with the Ancient is to only allow 1 reroll/ unit as a whole as they die to a single enemy unit's attacks. I.e. Sallie tac squad of 5 has a member die to the first shot fired by an enemy unit and ancient allows him to fire back; need to choose whether or not to risk the Sallies re-roll now and waste it on Bolter Marine #1, or wait to see if Plasma Marine gets killed and gets to return Fireto use it then(but never allow Bolter marine #1 to reroll and then Bolter Marine #3 to also reroll during the same enemy unit's shooting attack).

I don't agree with how you would play it because each instance of the banner activating is an individual instance of the unit shooting meaning each activation would allow each guy to re-roll to hit and to wound. Each time the unit shoots or fights means EACH time the unit shoots or fights and every activation of the banner is a separate shooting attack made by models in a unit thus part of the unit is firing thus the unit is firing. If you restrict the banner to only work on one guy then it shouldn't work at all by that logic.

Model firing =/= unit firing.

While the RAW is unclear so it depends on how you interpret it, but I think your assumption is unjustified.

I absolutely agree that it is unclear and could see it being FAQd one way or another, but as it stands I do believe my understanding is correct. If you read the rules for shooting it talks about selecting units to shoot and how models within the units shoot. A unit makes a shooting attack if a model from the unit fires a weapon. The shooting section of the rulebook says you select a unit to shoot which is done automatically in this case and not models. So when a guy dies and he shoots or fights thus meaning his unit has shot and each instance of this triggers the salamander CT. What if you have a character die and is able to shoot as a result? Would he not get the re-roll because he is just a model firing and not the unit even though he is the unit and if so why does the % of the unit firing matter when determining if the unit has fired or not?

On this topic though I do wonder how this would work (Minor thread hijacking) - Because attacks are resolved one at a time and a model who fires as a result of the banner immediately fires before being removed what if said model used it's firepower to wipe out the rest of the attacking unit before they were able to resolve their shots? If so wouldn't this mean whenever shooting or stabbing at a unit within 6" of a banner you would have to resolve your attacks one at a time to play 100% properly?

A model that is about to die and gets to shoot with the ancients rule is still part of the unit. Thus you can reroll, but it counts for the entire unit.

 p5freak wrote:
A model that is about to die and gets to shoot with the ancients rule is still part of the unit. Thus you can reroll, but it counts for the entire unit.

It sure does count for the entire unit when it shoots. Then when the next guy dies he triggers a separate shooting attacks meaning he can also re-roll through the salamander chapter tactic.

The Chaos Space Marine FAQ for Noise Marines makes it clear that it is intended to count as a separate "shooting phase" every time someone dies and triggers the banner. So each model will get their rerolls.

Q: If several Noise Marines are slain in the same attack, can they
each use their Music of the Apocalypse ability to throw a grenade,
or can only one of them do so?
A: Each of them can throw a grenade.

ickz wrote:
The Chaos Space Marine FAQ for Noise Marines makes it clear that it is intended to count as a separate "shooting phase" every time someone dies and triggers the banner. So each model will get their rerolls.

Q: If several Noise Marines are slain in the same attack, can they
each use their Music of the Apocalypse ability to throw a grenade,
or can only one of them do so?
A: Each of them can throw a grenade.

That FAQ has no bearing or remote closeness to the case we have on hand.

The discussion is "does sally CT, which procs on a unit by unit basis as RAW, proc on a model by model basis under the effect of banner?"

FYI, salamander CT has no phase restriction so your argument of "generating count as shooting phase per model" argument doesn't explain/support any arguments here.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Personally I think you do get the re-roll because models are still part of a unit so the unit is shooting. You can't fire a model without firing a unit. Only one model in the unit has permission to fire, but the unit is still firing. That's my logic on it anyways.

An ancient absolutely allows a model to fire/fight without the rest of the unit doing so.

As it is unclear, and a nearby ancient could potentially allow an entire unit to shoot while getting wiped, HIWPI with the Ancient is to only allow 1 reroll/ unit as a whole as they die to a single enemy unit's attacks. I.e. Sallie tac squad of 5 has a member die to the first shot fired by an enemy unit and ancient allows him to fire back; need to choose whether or not to risk the Sallies re-roll now and waste it on Bolter Marine #1, or wait to see if Plasma Marine gets killed and gets to return Fireto use it then(but never allow Bolter marine #1 to reroll and then Bolter Marine #3 to also reroll during the same enemy unit's shooting attack).

I don't agree with how you would play it because each instance of the banner activating is an individual instance of the unit shooting meaning each activation would allow each guy to re-roll to hit and to wound. Each time the unit shoots or fights means EACH time the unit shoots or fights and every activation of the banner is a separate shooting attack made by models in a unit thus part of the unit is firing thus the unit is firing. If you restrict the banner to only work on one guy then it shouldn't work at all by that logic.

Model firing =/= unit firing.

While the RAW is unclear so it depends on how you interpret it, but I think your assumption is unjustified.

I absolutely agree that it is unclear and could see it being FAQd one way or another, but as it stands I do believe my understanding is correct. If you read the rules for shooting it talks about selecting units to shoot and how models within the units shoot. A unit makes a shooting attack if a model from the unit fires a weapon. The shooting section of the rulebook says you select a unit to shoot which is done automatically in this case and not models. So when a guy dies and he shoots or fights thus meaning his unit has shot and each instance of this triggers the salamander CT. What if you have a character die and is able to shoot as a result? Would he not get the re-roll because he is just a model firing and not the unit even though he is the unit and if so why does the % of the unit firing matter when determining if the unit has fired or not?

On this topic though I do wonder how this would work (Minor thread hijacking) - Because attacks are resolved one at a time and a model who fires as a result of the banner immediately fires before being removed what if said model used it's firepower to wipe out the rest of the attacking unit before they were able to resolve their shots? If so wouldn't this mean whenever shooting or stabbing at a unit within 6" of a banner you would have to resolve your attacks one at a time to play 100% properly?

All of this is why I said HIWPI.

Any HIWPI is going to require discussion with opponent pre-game.

For me that discussion is going to be very rare because I do not often play against sallies players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

ickz wrote:
The Chaos Space Marine FAQ for Noise Marines makes it clear that it is intended to count as a separate "shooting phase" every time someone dies and triggers the banner. So each model will get their rerolls.

Q: If several Noise Marines are slain in the same attack, can they
each use their Music of the Apocalypse ability to throw a grenade,
or can only one of them do so?
A: Each of them can throw a grenade.

That FAQ has no bearing or remote closeness to the case we have on hand.

The discussion is "does sally CT, which procs on a unit by unit basis as RAW, proc on a model by model basis under the effect of banner?"

Grenades are a 1/unit basis though.

So it is a similar situation to the near-topic discussion.

 skchsan wrote:

ickz wrote:
The Chaos Space Marine FAQ for Noise Marines makes it clear that it is intended to count as a separate "shooting phase" every time someone dies and triggers the banner. So each model will get their rerolls.

Q: If several Noise Marines are slain in the same attack, can they
each use their Music of the Apocalypse ability to throw a grenade,
or can only one of them do so?
A: Each of them can throw a grenade.

That FAQ has no bearing or remote closeness to the case we have on hand.

The discussion is "does sally CT, which procs on a unit by unit basis as RAW, proc on a model by model basis under the effect of banner?"

FYI, salamander CT has no phase restriction so your argument of "generating count as shooting phase per model" argument doesn't explain/support any arguments here.

I know the CT doesn't have a phase restriction so I will agree that part was badly worded by me. To get my meaning you can basically just exchange my wording of "Shooting Phase" with "Shooting attack" which is what actually proccs the CT.

And how can you say that FAQ has "no bearing or remote closeness"?
- We have an ability that lets Models shoot when they die
- Noise Marines have an ability that lets them shoot when they die

- The Salamanders CT is limited to one per unit
- Grenades are limited to one per unit.

- The FAQ clarifies that every model that dies are allowed to do this one-per-unit-thing

The situation is practically the same.

 JNAProductions wrote:

CypherF wrote:
Quote from http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/08/40k-salamanders-are-the-best-codex-chapter-fight-me-on-this.html :

Ancients are already totally amazing, anything that lets your guys attack after dying is great. In a Salamander list they are off the charts. The reason for this is simple, when your dying model makes his last attack, he gets to use the ability and make re-rolls. Since Chapter Ancients is resolved model by model, every model that dies and gets to attack will get to re-roll a hit and miss.

That's not an official GW statement.

I'd allow it, but RAW is unclear.

EDIT: NEVERMIND! I see the issue with the wording of "model" vs "unit" now. Had the blinders on folks, apologies.

EDIT2: Given the wording of Master Artisans, I feel it wouldn't be "right" to have it apply to every dead model, but by RAW there's no way to handle the interaction, as has been repeated numerous times in the thread already. This looks like one for 40kfaq@gwplc.com.

ickz wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

ickz wrote:
The Chaos Space Marine FAQ for Noise Marines makes it clear that it is intended to count as a separate "shooting phase" every time someone dies and triggers the banner. So each model will get their rerolls.

Q: If several Noise Marines are slain in the same attack, can they
each use their Music of the Apocalypse ability to throw a grenade,
or can only one of them do so?
A: Each of them can throw a grenade.

That FAQ has no bearing or remote closeness to the case we have on hand.

The discussion is "does sally CT, which procs on a unit by unit basis as RAW, proc on a model by model basis under the effect of banner?"

FYI, salamander CT has no phase restriction so your argument of "generating count as shooting phase per model" argument doesn't explain/support any arguments here.

I know the CT doesn't have a phase restriction so I will agree that part was badly worded by me. To get my meaning you can basically just exchange my wording of "Shooting Phase" with "Shooting attack" which is what actually proccs the CT.

And how can you say that FAQ has "no bearing or remote closeness"?
- We have an ability that lets Models shoot when they die
- Noise Marines have an ability that lets them shoot when they die

- The Salamanders CT is limited to one per unit
- Grenades are limited to one per unit.

- The FAQ clarifies that every model that dies are allowed to do this one-per-unit-thing

The situation is practically the same.

Agreed, the Noise Marine FAQ is a great analogue. The only interpretation of Master Artisans + Apothecary that is logically consistent with that FAQ is that you can indeed use your Master Artisans re-rolls each time an Apothecary lets a dead Salamander shoot.

Logical consistency isn't always GW's strong suit, so they may FAQ it a different way. Until then, allowing the re-rolls looks like the closest thing to a RAW interpretation.