Guardsmen 5 pts per model.

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**Ice_can**

alextroy wrote:
The most interesting thing I've seen recently on this is the relative point values GW assigned to these 'core' troops units in Kill Team. Is it the same ruleset? No, but still very similar with generally the same rules:

Spoiler:

Space Marine Scout 10 (11 with Camo Cloak)
Space Marine Tactical Marine 12

Astra Militarum Infantry Guardsman 5

Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard 9

Chaos Space Marine 12
Chaos Space Marine Cultist 4

Death Guard Plague Marines 14
Death Guard Pox Walkers 3

Thousand Sons Rubric Marines 16
Thousand Sons Tzaangors 7
Asuryani Guardian Defender 7
Asuryani Storm Guardian 6
Asuryani Ranger 11
Asuryani Dire Avenger 10

Drukari Kabalite Warrior 7
Drukari Wych 8

Necron Warrior 12
Necron Immortal 16

Ork Boy 6
Ork Gretchin 3

Tau Fire Warrior 8
Tau Breacher 8

Tyranid Termagant 4
Tyranid Hormagaunt 4
Tyranid Warrior 20
Tyranid Genestealer 11

Genestealer Cults Neophyte Hybrid 5

Seems in this limited selection of units, the Guardman is near the bottom with only Cultist and Gretchin coming in lower for obvious reasons. Others have been adjusted around, so its might not be just Guardsman that are in need of a points adjustment to level the playing field.

Are Drukari missing power from pain or something else to explain why they're getting what at first glance feel like undercosted units?

**Martel732**

Drukhari are largely undercosted, just like IG.

**Drudge Dreadnought**

Spoletta wrote:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
**skims first 2 pages. No mention of flamers or anti horde**
**ctrlf+f 'flamer' on page 3 and 4. No results**

Guys I hate to just drop in 4 pages into a good old forum argument, but the problem is that guardsmen are a cheap horde infantry unit, and there are currently no hard counters to cheap horde infantry. I see people mentioning that there's no points efficient way to counter them, but there's not enough talk about WHY.

The reason why is that small arms got gutted in 8th by the AP changes. Most small arms (bolters, shuriken weapons, etc) went from ignoring guard armor to not. So cheap small arms are no longer efficient anti horde weapons. And then the blast and template changes made those weapons far weaker vs multi model units too. Flamers could reliably get ~5+ hits on hordes in the past, even if they were spread out (and much more if forced together). Now they get 1d6 and cost a huge amount. Small blasts like frag missiles got usually got 3 or 4 hits, or 6+ on clumped up guys. And both those weapons used to ignore guard armor, and now they do not even ignore ork armor! And FNP is all over the place.

Remember in 5th when a tac squad could have a flamer and missile launcher nearly for free and reliably overkilled guard squads even in cover in a single round?

Morale changes have also destroyed anti horde abilities. It used to be that you could charge guardsmen with tactical marines, kill a couple, and then finish them with a sweeping advance. Now that is gone. And the new moral system isn't an adequate replacement.

I'm not saying guardsmen should stay 4 points. I'm saying that guardsmen themselves aren't the issue. We need anti-horde to get fixed, which means a fix to small arms for certain armies, and a fix to blasts and templates for everyone. Get us back to having hard counters to hordes, and then we'll see where guard need to be priced at.

The game is full of anti horde weapons.

Lasguns, bolters (and variations), devourers... Pretty much every S3 or S4 weapon without AP is an anti horde weapon, since it is drastically more efficient at killing small models than elite models.

Sure, if you use a tactical marine vs guardman for your math, then you get skewed results, but you just took a totally uncompetitive choice vs an high competitive one specialized in durability (and without looking at morale). If you take a more realistic and less biased approach, you can see that shooting a bolter at an intercessor will yeld you 1/3 of the points in damage compared to shooting an ork boy.

The whole concept going around that "8th has no anti horde weapons" is completely false. If you increase the amount of anti horde weapons going around, you kill many units like hormagaunts that right now are perfectly balanced.

If you can't table 200 boyz with a TAC list, that's like saying that you can't table a knight list with a typical TAC list. Skewed lists tend to do that. I assure you that if you invested in light weaponry the same amount of points that right now we invest in heavy weapons in case we meet knights, then those 200 Orks would be no problem.

Let's stop derailing threads with this wrong assumption that the game lacks anti horde, it is simply false.

If there are problems (and i'm not sure there is one), then they are to be found within individual models.

Lol, wut? Just because these weapons can only really hurt hordes doesn't mean they are good vs hordes. Considering the weapons in a vacuum without taking into account the units that can take them is asinine. They still aren't point efficient vs horde units. Nothing is except other horde units. That is the best. It's not just a matter of not using the correct unit to counter them. Units that used to counter them no longer do, even though they are still supposed to.

How can you not be sure there is a problem when a massive amount of units (including almost the entire SM faction and most MeQs) are not fielded due to lack of efficient ways to fight hordes?

**Eonfuzz**

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Lol, wut? Just because these weapons can only really hurt hordes doesn't mean they are good vs hordes. Considering the weapons in a vacuum without taking into account the units that can take them is asinine. They still aren't point efficient vs horde units. Nothing is except other horde units. That is the best. It's not just a matter of not using the correct unit to counter them. Units that used to counter them no longer do, even though they are still supposed to.

How can you not be sure there is a problem when a massive amount of units (including almost the entire SM faction and most MeQs) are not fielded due to lack of efficient ways to fight hordes?

Lets theorycraft.

Within the current design space of 8e, how would you create and define an 'anti-horde' weapon. This weapon has to be bad (or at least average) against non-hordes.

**Crimson**

Eonfuzz wrote:

Lets theorycraft.

Within the current design space of 8e, how would you create and define an 'anti-horde' weapon. This weapon has to be bad (or at least average) against non-hordes.

I said this on previous page: Flamers should be '2d6 autohits, cannot cause more hits than there are models in the target unit.' You could apply the same logic to some former blast weapons as well.

**JimOnMars**

Anti-horde weapons could get 1 shot for every 10 models in a target unit, round up. Kind of a kludge but it would do the trick.

**Colonel Cross**

It's kind of funny that the punisher Gatling Cannon, Wyvern, and mortar HWSs are in the guard armory.

**Drudge Dreadnought**

Eonfuzz wrote:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Lol, wut? Just because these weapons can only really hurt hordes doesn't mean they are good vs hordes. Considering the weapons in a vacuum without taking into account the units that can take them is asinine. They still aren't point efficient vs horde units. Nothing is except other horde units. That is the best. It's not just a matter of not using the correct unit to counter them. Units that used to counter them no longer do, even though they are still supposed to.

How can you not be sure there is a problem when a massive amount of units (including almost the entire SM faction and most MeQs) are not fielded due to lack of efficient ways to fight hordes?

Lets theorycraft.

Within the current design space of 8e, how would you create and define an 'anti-horde' weapon. This weapon has to be bad (or at least average) against non-hordes.

There's 2 possible definitions:

1) Weapons that get more hits, or are otherwise more effective vs larger units.
2) Weapons which are effective vs squishy models that tend to be in hordes, but which aren't strong enough to be efficient vs models with good saves, toughness, etc.

For number 2, it's definitely a matter of unit vs unit comparison. For example, in 5th ed, Tactical marines with bolters were an efficient way to kill guardsmen not just because of their offensive output, but because guardsmen were not efficient at killing MeQs at the time. Tactica's were pretty efficient at shooting boyz off the board, but weren't efficient at killing them in melee due to tacs being weaker there and boyz being stronger. So it is certainly a relative effect.

**Enigma of the Absolute**

What is required is an abstract rule mechanic which adequately represents the fact that larger groups of massed infantry will clustered more closely together and will therefore be more susceptible to high RoF or explosive weapons when compared with smaller elite units.

In previous editions this was dealt with less abstractly with the use of templates but that allowed for gamey model placement shenanigans.

One idea would be to address this with key words. Let's say you have 'Shock Infantry' and 'Horde Infantry'. Regular infantry doesn't have a codeword and weapons affect it normally. Some weapons have a greater or lesser effect against Shock Infantry or Horde Infantry.

The shock / horde distinction would largely represent a tactical distinction. Horde infantry are units which rely primarily on strength of numbers whereas shock infantry are going to use mobility and cover to use the element of surprise.

**Delvarus Centurion**

bibotot wrote:
The complaint right now is how useless the Conscripts are compared to Guardsman. So how about bringing the Guardsmen to 5 points per model and give them some special rule? What in hell do Ork Boyz cost 6 pts per model? They should be overwhelming the Guards with sheer number, not the other way around.

Pffttt I never enlist conscripts, I play DKK, we have no time for newbees.

**Dandelion**

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Lol, wut? Just because these weapons can only really hurt hordes doesn't mean they are good vs hordes. Considering the weapons in a vacuum without taking into account the units that can take them is asinine. They still aren't point efficient vs horde units. Nothing is except other horde units. That is the best. It's not just a matter of not using the correct unit to counter them. Units that used to counter them no longer do, even though they are still supposed to.

How can you not be sure there is a problem when a massive amount of units (including almost the entire SM faction and most MeQs) are not fielded due to lack of efficient ways to fight hordes?

Spoletta is right in this regard. Anti-horde is achieved through high ROF, low strength, no AP guns. The ROF counters the hordes but low strength and AP keeps them from hurting vehicles and such with equal efficiency. It's true that the source of these is few and far between but they exist. Some examples include Aggressors, Taurox Prime, Skitarii Vanguard/Infiltrators etc...

Just as a theoretical exercise:
40 Boltguns hits vs Ork boyz and Marine Intercessors
- Boyz: 16.6 models lost = 100 pts lost
- Intercessors: 3.33 models lost = 60 points lost
Boltguns are about 66% more effective vs boyz than intercessors.

Compare to 40 plasma hits:
- Boyz: 26.66 models lost (33.33 overcharging) = 160 pts (200 pts)
- Intercessors: 11 models lost ( 27.7 overcharging) = 200 pts (500 pts)
Plasma is about 25% more efficient against Intercessors (or 150% overcharging RIP

)

Other than plasma overcharge just being OP (GW pls nerf)

I think it sufficiently illustrates how AP shifts the scale.

**Delvarus Centurion**

Dandelion wrote:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Lol, wut? Just because these weapons can only really hurt hordes doesn't mean they are good vs hordes. Considering the weapons in a vacuum without taking into account the units that can take them is asinine. They still aren't point efficient vs horde units. Nothing is except other horde units. That is the best. It's not just a matter of not using the correct unit to counter them. Units that used to counter them no longer do, even though they are still supposed to.

How can you not be sure there is a problem when a massive amount of units (including almost the entire SM faction and most MeQs) are not fielded due to lack of efficient ways to fight hordes?

Spoletta is right in this regard. Anti-horde is achieved through high ROF, low strength, no AP guns. The ROF counters the hordes but low strength and AP keeps them from hurting vehicles and such with equal efficiency. It's true that the source of these is few and far between but they exist. Some examples include Aggressors, Taurox Prime, Skitarii Vanguard/Infiltrators etc...

Just as a theoretical exercise:
40 Boltguns hits vs Ork boyz and Marine Intercessors
- Boyz: 16.6 models lost = 100 pts lost
- Intercessors: 3.33 models lost = 60 points lost
Boltguns are about 66% more effective vs boyz than intercessors.

Compare to 40 plasma hits:
- Boyz: 26.66 models lost (33.33 overcharging) = 160 pts (200 pts)
- Intercessors: 11 models lost ( 27.7 overcharging) = 200 pts (500 pts)
Plasma is about 25% more efficient against Intercessors (or 150% overcharging RIP )

Other than plasma overcharge just being OP (GW pls nerf) I think it sufficiently illustrates how AP shifts the scale.

Plasma overdrive isn't OP, potentially losing a model for shooting is big especially in a low model count army, and losing 2 wound models, plus you can't take saves anymore for them. I only use the OD when I really need to. Much better to safe bet it.

**SHUPPET**

I think 3D3 would be better for Flamers. That's doing a minimum of 3 hits, and on average doing 6.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
They may need a minor points increase though

**Dandelion**

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Plasma overdrive isn't OP, potentially losing a model for shooting is big especially in a low model count army, and losing 2 wound models, plus you can't take saves anymore for them. I only use the OD when I really need to. Much better to safe bet it.

Reroll 1s FTW!
Granted I don't think plasma is that over the top, but it could stand to lose 1S on its profile (now overcharge only wounds T4 on 3s). And 2W models could get a smidgen cheaper just due to the prevalence of 2D weapons in general.

**alextroy**

Ice_can wrote:
alextroy wrote:
The most interesting thing I've seen recently on this is the relative point values GW assigned to these 'core' troops units in Kill Team. Is it the same ruleset? No, but still very similar with generally the same rules:

Spoiler:

Space Marine Scout 10 (11 with Camo Cloak)
Space Marine Tactical Marine 12

Astra Militarum Infantry Guardsman 5

Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard 9

Chaos Space Marine 12
Chaos Space Marine Cultist 4

Death Guard Plague Marines 14
Death Guard Pox Walkers 3

Thousand Sons Rubric Marines 16
Thousand Sons Tzaangors 7
Asuryani Guardian Defender 7
Asuryani Storm Guardian 6
Asuryani Ranger 11
Asuryani Dire Avenger 10

Drukari Kabalite Warrior 7
Drukari Wych 8

Necron Warrior 12
Necron Immortal 16

Ork Boy 6
Ork Gretchin 3

Tau Fire Warrior 8
Tau Breacher 8

Tyranid Termagant 4
Tyranid Hormagaunt 4
Tyranid Warrior 20
Tyranid Genestealer 11

Genestealer Cults Neophyte Hybrid 5

Seems in this limited selection of units, the Guardman is near the bottom with only Cultist and Gretchin coming in lower for obvious reasons. Others have been adjusted around, so its might not be just Guardsman that are in need of a points adjustment to level the playing field.
Are Drukari missing power from pain or something else to explain why they're getting what at first glance feel like undercosted units?

Nope. They have it in Kill Team also.

**Delvarus Centurion**

Dandelion wrote:
Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Plasma overdrive isn't OP, potentially losing a model for shooting is big especially in a low model count army, and losing 2 wound models, plus you can't take saves anymore for them. I only use the OD when I really need to. Much better to safe bet it.

Reroll 1s FTW!
Granted I don't think plasma is that over the top, but it could stand to lose 1S on its profile (now overcharge only wounds T4 on 3s). And 2W models could get a smidgen cheaper just due to the prevalence of 2D weapons in general.

I like plasma's how they are. you never constantly use OD so its a good tactical option to OD.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Dandelion wrote:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Lol, wut? Just because these weapons can only really hurt hordes doesn't mean they are good vs hordes. Considering the weapons in a vacuum without taking into account the units that can take them is asinine. They still aren't point efficient vs horde units. Nothing is except other horde units. That is the best. It's not just a matter of not using the correct unit to counter them. Units that used to counter them no longer do, even though they are still supposed to.

How can you not be sure there is a problem when a massive amount of units (including almost the entire SM faction and most MeQs) are not fielded due to lack of efficient ways to fight hordes?

Spoletta is right in this regard. Anti-horde is achieved through high ROF, low strength, no AP guns. The ROF counters the hordes but low strength and AP keeps them from hurting vehicles and such with equal efficiency. It's true that the source of these is few and far between but they exist. Some examples include Aggressors, Taurox Prime, Skitarii Vanguard/Infiltrators etc...

Just as a theoretical exercise:
40 Boltguns hits vs Ork boyz and Marine Intercessors
- Boyz: 16.6 models lost = 100 pts lost
- Intercessors: 3.33 models lost = 60 points lost
Boltguns are about 66% more effective vs boyz than intercessors.

Compare to 40 plasma hits:
- Boyz: 26.66 models lost (33.33 overcharging) = 160 pts (200 pts)
- Intercessors: 11 models lost ( 27.7 overcharging) = 200 pts (500 pts)
Plasma is about 25% more efficient against Intercessors (or 150% overcharging RIP )

Other than plasma overcharge just being OP (GW pls nerf) I think it sufficiently illustrates how AP shifts the scale.

Your exercise doesn't work as Intercessors are already pretty durable to D1 weapons. Try any other unit and you'll see what happens. Then you have the matter of D2+ weapons.

**SHUPPET**

JimOnMars wrote:
At five points per guardsman the Imperial Guard will not be transformed into a bottom tier army. They just won't. They won't necessarily be top tier anymore...so be it.

This will instantly nerf two of the biggest problems in the game: namely overpowered Imperial Guard and overpowered Imperial Soup.

Yes, it leaves Eldar (of all stripes) that desperately need a similar treatment.

I can't understand why people don't want to make the game better.

Lol. This ain't the big leagues kid. You aren't dealing with good players who want a fairly balanced playing field. You are dealing with some of the worst and yet loudest players the internet knows, who will defend or justify absolutely anything their own army has. And to no surprise, titles like this are a magnet to them.

I lost count of the number of people who came in here defending Guardsmen stating "it's just SOUP, its just the CP FARM seeing play in tournaments". Then when it was stated that this wasn't the case at all, and the most successful army at BAO was ig PRIMARY, it got chalked it up to "that's just the [blood captains/custodes] winning their lists for them then" when neither elements were present. "Well, they still aren't using infantry" uhhhh they ran 1400 pts worth of infantry. Have any of them backed down from that pointed after being corrected? Not yet, they instead just jump to a new, even more outlandish angle to downplay instead.

These people are not interested in improving the game. There is no objectivity here.

**Larks**

People aren't mad at Guardsmen (save maybe the Space Marine players, but balancing a game off of Bolter Porn just isn't going to happen), they're mad at the Grand Strategist/Kurov's Aquilla CP Battalion. The fix is easy in my opinion - you should only be able to nominate your Warlord from the faction that takes up the most points in your list. Done.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Larks wrote:
People aren't mad at Guardsmen (save maybe the Space Marine players, but balancing a game off of Bolter Porn just isn't going to happen),

Actually as someone playing AdMech, CSM, and Necrons I'm mad at Infantry too.

**greatbigtree**

Regarding Anti-Horde weapons, has anyone run numbers using a hypothetical gun with +1 saves, instead of a negative modifier?

Something like 30 lasgun shots that give +1 to saves. GEQ move to a 4+, MEQ move to a 2+?

I haven't run any numbers, but that might skew a weapon into being "bad" against tough stuff, while being good against chaff.

Oh, what the hell. 36 hits on MEQ would be 12 wounds, and 2 casualties if they have a 2+ save. 2*13 = 26 points

36 hits on Guardsmen would be 18 wounds and 9 casualties if they have a 4+ save. 9*4 (currently) = 36 points.

A weapon that is substantially more efficient at killing Guardsmen then it is at killing MEQ. Perhaps a rule that if a save would become 1+ or better, it instead is treated as 2+ with a 4+ reroll. Absolute garbage against TEQ.

Edit: This weapon would work best at S4. That way, it is better against T3, than T4, and better against T4 than T5. That would probably best represent the changes between light, medium, and heavy infantry.

**Slayer-Fan123**

That would literally make Power Armor as good as TEQ and CEQ. No.

**Dandelion**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Lol, wut? Just because these weapons can only really hurt hordes doesn't mean they are good vs hordes. Considering the weapons in a vacuum without taking into account the units that can take them is asinine. They still aren't point efficient vs horde units. Nothing is except other horde units. That is the best. It's not just a matter of not using the correct unit to counter them. Units that used to counter them no longer do, even though they are still supposed to.

How can you not be sure there is a problem when a massive amount of units (including almost the entire SM faction and most MeQs) are not fielded due to lack of efficient ways to fight hordes?

Spoletta is right in this regard. Anti-horde is achieved through high ROF, low strength, no AP guns. The ROF counters the hordes but low strength and AP keeps them from hurting vehicles and such with equal efficiency. It's true that the source of these is few and far between but they exist. Some examples include Aggressors, Taurox Prime, Skitarii Vanguard/Infiltrators etc...

Just as a theoretical exercise:
40 Boltguns hits vs Ork boyz and Marine Intercessors
- Boyz: 16.6 models lost = 100 pts lost
- Intercessors: 3.33 models lost = 60 points lost
Boltguns are about 66% more effective vs boyz than intercessors.

Compare to 40 plasma hits:
- Boyz: 26.66 models lost (33.33 overcharging) = 160 pts (200 pts)
- Intercessors: 11 models lost ( 27.7 overcharging) = 200 pts (500 pts)
Plasma is about 25% more efficient against Intercessors (or 150% overcharging RIP )

Other than plasma overcharge just being OP (GW pls nerf) I think it sufficiently illustrates how AP shifts the scale.

Your exercise doesn't work as Intercessors are already pretty durable to D1 weapons. Try any other unit and you'll see what happens. Then you have the matter of D2+ weapons.

I chose intercessors because I vastly prefer the 2W profile, but since we're just throwing numbers out:

boyz vs tacticool merhines
40 bolter shots:
- Boyz = 100 pts lost
- 6.66 models lost = 87 pts lost
Bolters are 15% better vs boyz

40 plasma shots
- Boyz = 160 pts lost
- 22.2 models lost = 289 pts lost
Plasma is 80% better against marines

So overall the trend is still there, it's just that marines cost too much relative to durability and not really a lack of weapons that are better against cheap bodies.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I like plasma's how they are. you never constantly use OD so its a good tactical option to OD.

imo, if Tau plasma is stuck at S6, Imperial plasma should drop to S6/S7. And honestly, it helps out melta at the same time.

**Eonfuzz**

Crimson wrote:
Eonfuzz wrote:

Lets theorycraft.

Within the current design space of 8e, how would you create and define an 'anti-horde' weapon. This weapon has to be bad (or at least average) against non-hordes.

I said this on previous page: Flamers should be '2d6 autohits, cannot cause more hits than there are models in the target unit.' You could apply the same logic to some former blast weapons as well.

I like this, increase former 'heavy' weapon dice size and cap it to number of units in a squad.

SHUPPET wrote:

Lol. This ain't the big leagues kid. You aren't dealing with good players who want a fairly balanced playing field. You are dealing with some of the worst and yet loudest players the internet knows, who will defend or justify absolutely anything their own army has. And to no surprise, titles like this are a magnet to them.

I lost count of the number of people who came in here defending Guardsmen stating "it's just SOUP, its just the CP FARM seeing play in tournaments". Then when it was stated that this wasn't the case at all, and the most successful army at BAO was ig PRIMARY, it got chalked it up to "that's just the [blood captains/custodes] winning their lists for them then" when neither elements were present. "Well, they still aren't using infantry" uhhhh they ran 1400 pts worth of infantry. Have any of them backed down from that pointed after being corrected? Not yet, they instead just jump to a new, even more outlandish angle to downplay instead.

These people are not interested in improving the game. There is no objectivity here.

Eh, I think it's about perception and the 'feel' of reason.
Look at it this way; the majority of people that play mono IG see that *almost every* imperial army uses them as a CP farm while also receiving cries of "Op! Op! Hark, nerf the guard!".
Could you imagine if it was the other way around? Marines were being used as a CP farm in these soupy armies? The forums would have a completely different reaction "But marines are meant to be good!", "I mean, it makes sense in the fluff", "Its about time marines have it good".

I haven't played against enough guard to say weather they are good or not (but I have played against my share of CP farms) and anecdotally those CP farms had no output other than just CP.
Personally I'd rather see an elegant solution nipping the current problem of these farms in the bud, and further changes *if* guard does indeed surface to the top. But i feel like there are more problematic things that need addressing ASAP.

**Drudge Dreadnought**

Dandelion wrote:
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Lol, wut? Just because these weapons can only really hurt hordes doesn't mean they are good vs hordes. Considering the weapons in a vacuum without taking into account the units that can take them is asinine. They still aren't point efficient vs horde units. Nothing is except other horde units. That is the best. It's not just a matter of not using the correct unit to counter them. Units that used to counter them no longer do, even though they are still supposed to.

How can you not be sure there is a problem when a massive amount of units (including almost the entire SM faction and most MeQs) are not fielded due to lack of efficient ways to fight hordes?

Spoletta is right in this regard. Anti-horde is achieved through high ROF, low strength, no AP guns. The ROF counters the hordes but low strength and AP keeps them from hurting vehicles and such with equal efficiency. It's true that the source of these is few and far between but they exist. Some examples include Aggressors, Taurox Prime, Skitarii Vanguard/Infiltrators etc...

Just as a theoretical exercise:
40 Boltguns hits vs Ork boyz and Marine Intercessors
- Boyz: 16.6 models lost = 100 pts lost
- Intercessors: 3.33 models lost = 60 points lost
Boltguns are about 66% more effective vs boyz than intercessors.

Compare to 40 plasma hits:
- Boyz: 26.66 models lost (33.33 overcharging) = 160 pts (200 pts)
- Intercessors: 11 models lost ( 27.7 overcharging) = 200 pts (500 pts)
Plasma is about 25% more efficient against Intercessors (or 150% overcharging RIP )

Other than plasma overcharge just being OP (GW pls nerf) I think it sufficiently illustrates how AP shifts the scale.

I get what you mean, but this is all splitting hairs. My point before, and now, is that weapons which are supposed to be anti horde are not performing in that role anymore. Spoletta was splitting hairs with the claim that some weapons are defined as anti horde. Splitting hairs on the definition doesn't fix the mechanics not working though. And as you say, there isn't enough that exist. There used to be, because small arms like bolters on common troops would chew through horde units. Now they do not because they lost efficiency. It's that simple.

**vipoid**

Ice_can wrote:
alextroy wrote:
The most interesting thing I've seen recently on this is the relative point values GW assigned to these 'core' troops units in Kill Team. Is it the same ruleset? No, but still very similar with generally the same rules:

Spoiler:

Space Marine Scout 10 (11 with Camo Cloak)
Space Marine Tactical Marine 12

Astra Militarum Infantry Guardsman 5

Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard 9

Chaos Space Marine 12
Chaos Space Marine Cultist 4

Death Guard Plague Marines 14
Death Guard Pox Walkers 3

Thousand Sons Rubric Marines 16
Thousand Sons Tzaangors 7
Asuryani Guardian Defender 7
Asuryani Storm Guardian 6
Asuryani Ranger 11
Asuryani Dire Avenger 10

Drukari Kabalite Warrior 7
Drukari Wych 8

Necron Warrior 12
Necron Immortal 16

Ork Boy 6
Ork Gretchin 3

Tau Fire Warrior 8
Tau Breacher 8

Tyranid Termagant 4
Tyranid Hormagaunt 4
Tyranid Warrior 20
Tyranid Genestealer 11

Genestealer Cults Neophyte Hybrid 5

Seems in this limited selection of units, the Guardman is near the bottom with only Cultist and Gretchin coming in lower for obvious reasons. Others have been adjusted around, so its might not be just Guardsman that are in need of a points adjustment to level the playing field.
Are Drukari missing power from pain or something else to explain why they're getting what at first glance feel like undercosted units?

Well, there are a few possible reasons for DE being cheap:

- Outside of special weapons, DE infantry have very lacklustre offence. Kabalite Warriors have what is probably the second-worst weapon on a basic infantry unit after the lasgun, but without the orders and such that make the lasgun effective. Wyches are a S3 melee unit.

- They're still pretty fragile. Kabalites are Guardsmen with 6+ FNP, Wyches (when not in combat) have a 6++ and 6+ FNP.

- Perhaps more importantly, DE infantry have almost no HQ support. They have no psychic powers, and only 1 HQ aura that can affect each subfaction. So, while marines have stuff like: reroll 1s to hit, reroll all hits, reroll 1s to wound, reroll all wounds, reroll all misses in combat etc. Wyches can reroll 1s to hit in combat with a nearby Succubus. That's it. De Warriors can reroll 1s to hit with an Archon, but if either of them is on a transport then they won't even get that bonus.

To be honest, I'm not sure whether I'm keen on DE troops being so cheap/disposable, especially with their elites being scrapped. Regardless, the above is my best guess for why they're cheap.

**Stux**

Getting into Tyranids recently, I found it interesting that Guard and Hormagaunts swapped cost in Kill Team. Hormagaunts at 4 makes more sense to me, even with 2 attacks they're still very limited in ability due to being S3.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That would literally make Power Armor as good as TEQ and CEQ. No.

That's the entire point, no?

**Ice_can**

vipoid wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
alextroy wrote:
The most interesting thing I've seen recently on this is the relative point values GW assigned to these 'core' troops units in Kill Team. Is it the same ruleset? No, but still very similar with generally the same rules:

Spoiler:

Space Marine Scout 10 (11 with Camo Cloak)
Space Marine Tactical Marine 12

Astra Militarum Infantry Guardsman 5

Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard 9

Chaos Space Marine 12
Chaos Space Marine Cultist 4

Death Guard Plague Marines 14
Death Guard Pox Walkers 3

Thousand Sons Rubric Marines 16
Thousand Sons Tzaangors 7
Asuryani Guardian Defender 7
Asuryani Storm Guardian 6
Asuryani Ranger 11
Asuryani Dire Avenger 10

Drukari Kabalite Warrior 7
Drukari Wych 8

Necron Warrior 12
Necron Immortal 16

Ork Boy 6
Ork Gretchin 3

Tau Fire Warrior 8
Tau Breacher 8

Tyranid Termagant 4
Tyranid Hormagaunt 4
Tyranid Warrior 20
Tyranid Genestealer 11

Genestealer Cults Neophyte Hybrid 5

Seems in this limited selection of units, the Guardman is near the bottom with only Cultist and Gretchin coming in lower for obvious reasons. Others have been adjusted around, so its might not be just Guardsman that are in need of a points adjustment to level the playing field.
Are Drukari missing power from pain or something else to explain why they're getting what at first glance feel like undercosted units?

Well, there are a few possible reasons for DE being cheap:

- Outside of special weapons, DE infantry have very lacklustre offence. Kabalite Warriors have what is probably the second-worst weapon on a basic infantry unit after the lasgun, but without the orders and such that make the lasgun effective. Wyches are a S3 melee unit.

- They're still pretty fragile. Kabalites are Guardsmen with 6+ FNP, Wyches (when not in combat) have a 6++ and 6+ FNP.

- Perhaps more importantly, DE infantry have almost no HQ support. They have no psychic powers, and only 1 HQ aura that can affect each subfaction. So, while marines have stuff like: reroll 1s to hit, reroll all hits, reroll 1s to wound, reroll all wounds, reroll all misses in combat etc. Wyches can reroll 1s to hit in combat with a nearby Succubus. That's it. De Warriors can reroll 1s to hit with an Archon, but if either of them is on a transport then they won't even get that bonus.

To be honest, I'm not sure whether I'm keen on DE troops being so cheap/disposable, especially with their elites being scrapped. Regardless, the above is my best guess for why they're cheap.

I was asking specifically about how they work in kill team to understand why they seem to have come of better than most in the kill team points system. But it does show that current 40K infantry points costs appear to be very off.

But just to pick upon your comparison of kabs to guardsmen Kabalities arn't guardsmen stats.
I don't see many BS3+, WS4+ guardsmen on the table as they are 6ppm aswell as kabs but without WS3+, PFP or fast open top transports with FNP's to zip about in.

**vipoid**

Ice_can wrote:

I was asking specifically about how they work in kill team to understand why they seem to have come of better than most in the kill team points system. But it does show that current 40K infantry points costs appear to be very off.

Ah, okay. Sorry, I missed the Kill Team bit.

Ice_can wrote:

But just to pick upon your comparison of kabs to guardsmen Kabalities arn't guardsmen stats.

I said they were little better than guardsmen in terms of defence.