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That would be fine if points reflected those changes. They don't.

Boltguns should be AP-2 against targets with 5+ armor or worse. That would be a fluffy change.

Martel,
Isn't that the purpose of threads liek this? To make the points more accurately reflect the relative ability?

Marm,
Wouldn't bringing back 7e AP atop current-edition AP be a lot of rules overhead?

Bharring wrote:
Marm,
Wouldn't bringing back 7e AP atop current-edition AP be a lot of rules overhead?

Not if it's specific to space marines. Just a general "astartes built" rule:

"Boltguns equipped by models with the <ADEPTUS ASTARTES> keyword gain AP-2 against targets with a save characteristic 5 or greater."

It would also help to justify the obscene cost difference between Sisters of Battle and Space Marines.

It is. But, as usual, there is very little agreement. I've been very upset about this in the past, but I must admit the best price points are not 100% obvious.

The best description is your two-tier description for infantry. I don't know why GW can't see this as a problem. Maybe they do now after a full year. Who knows?

From what I can tell, a large chunk of the frontline gaming people are reporting marines as trash (not Reecius), and this "fact" is talked about as a given in their podcasts. To some, this might be more damning than the actual math.

I'd love for the model costs in Kill Team to mostly make it to 40k. I think that might bring things more in line (although CWE might need to find a middleground).

I don't play kill team, so I wouldn't know.

I did message the frontline gaming guys and mention how GW has managed to reduce my entire codex to scouts and captains in about one year. They said they couldn't disagree. Someone outside the Dakka-sphere agrees.

Guardsmen aren't the whole reason, but they are a piece of the puzzle. 180 pts for 5 CP is pretty good.

Bharring wrote:
I'd love for the model costs in Kill Team to mostly make it to 40k. I think that might bring things more in line (although CWE might need to find a middleground).

Grey Knights are chodeville in Kill Team.

 Kanluwen wrote:
[

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Neophytes have superior leadership to guardsmen. If guardsmen were 5 points neophytes would be guardsmen with +1L and better deployment options for the same price.

I think you're really overvaluing those two things. Primarily because Cult Ambush is to GSC as Orders are to Guard, and orders are guaranteed, but ou have to roll for the ambush type, which might suck. And cult ambush is only once a game while orders can be received each turn. And imo +1L is not worth a 20% increase in price especially when it puts neophytes at the same price as veterans who are 33% more killy.

In the grand scheme of things, guardsmen and neophytes are close enough to be the same point cost.

Disagree. The Cult Ambush rule is also able to be backed up by the stratagem from CA2017 allowing you to 'reset' the units into Cult Ambush.

Orders also are a very different beast to Cult Ambush IMO. The Auras that the individual characters give is that equivalent, Cult Ambush is a bit of an oddity at this point in time since most Troops choices don't have something like this anymore.

But do you think that those two differences put neophytes on the same level as veterans? Cuz that's what wizard is saying.

Also, orders are the Guard's special ability, like how cult ambush is the GSC's ability. So from that point of view they are roughly equivalent.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't play kill team, so I wouldn't know.

I did message the frontline gaming guys and mention how GW has managed to reduce my entire codex to scouts and captains in about one year. They said they couldn't disagree. Someone outside the Dakka-sphere agrees.

Guardsmen aren't the whole reason, but they are a piece of the puzzle. 180 pts for 5 CP is pretty good.

I mean that's the fate of any codex that's teetering on the low to mid tier area.

Tyranids could be really boiled down to codex Tyrant, Hive Guard, and Carnifex. Space marines have Captains, Scouts, and Devastators. Yes, devastator squads are viable thanks to cherub + signum + heavy / krakk. In the right context some vehicles can be viable, but that's usually revolving around Guilliman. Aggressors are a good unit in a bad dex too.

In the last few months, more GTs have been won by Marines than Tyranids. If that matters to you.

Oh yeah, the FAQ trick that would have been LAUGHED AT if I had posted it here in Dakka the week before.

 Marmatag wrote:
Boltguns should be AP-2 against targets with 5+ armor or worse. That would be a fluffy change.

Or just let marines shoot more with their boltguns. No need for fancy rules that target very specific units.

If for example marines could shoot 3 times in rapid fire vs your idea:
Shooting 3 times (rapid fire)
- 1 marine kills 8/9 GEQ
AP -2 (rapid fire)
- 1 marine kills 8/9 GEQ

Dandelion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Neophytes have superior leadership to guardsmen. If guardsmen were 5 points neophytes would be guardsmen with +1L and better deployment options for the same price.

I think you're really overvaluing those two things. Primarily because Cult Ambush is to GSC as Orders are to Guard, and orders are guaranteed, but ou have to roll for the ambush type, which might suck. And cult ambush is only once a game while orders can be received each turn. And imo +1L is not worth a 20% increase in price especially when it puts neophytes at the same price as veterans who are 33% more killy.

In the grand scheme of things, guardsmen and neophytes are close enough to be the same point cost.

Disagree. The Cult Ambush rule is also able to be backed up by the stratagem from CA2017 allowing you to 'reset' the units into Cult Ambush.

Orders also are a very different beast to Cult Ambush IMO. The Auras that the individual characters give is that equivalent, Cult Ambush is a bit of an oddity at this point in time since most Troops choices don't have something like this anymore.

But do you think that those two differences put neophytes on the same level as veterans? Cuz that's what wizard is saying.

I think that GW seems to feel that +1LD is worth a point. I'd done a bit of a deconstruction awhile back and it seems like there's a threshold where stuff actually costs points--LD over 6, 4+ or better saves, weapons with certain values, etc.

Also, orders are the Guard's special ability, like how cult ambush is the GSC's ability. So from that point of view they are roughly equivalent.

We might have to agree to disagree on this point, but I really don't see those as the same.

I see Cult Ambush as a slightly downgraded version of the various alternate deployment methods. It kinda has to be given that most other armies are getting such a wide variety of infiltration via Command Points and Stratagems.

Orders, I maintain, are related to the auras.

Martel732 wrote:
Oh yeah, the FAQ trick that would have been LAUGHED AT if I had posted it here in Dakka the week before.

Doesn't change the fact that marines are consistently performing better than Tyranids.

Bharring wrote:
Vak,
Would you find this statement accurate:
"Eldar mesh armor has been portrayed as particularly fantastically protective armor *for* its light weight and flexible. Not in absolute terms."
?
I think its the same concept, but more technically correct.

According to a lot of fluff, IG are actually well-provisioned, normally. Their weapons and kit are top-notch for human-grade kit. It's just that every faction on the tabletop is super-something. IG training and gear are a level above most PDFs or independent factions.

So Flakk armor is good armor. But Boltguns are amazing guns. Gauss is absurdly powerful. Shuriken and Splinter are unimaginable terrors. And soforth. So it's natural for Mesh to be in the same class protection-wise.

yeah id go with that. I think tabletop 40k just doesnt have the space to really portray that particular facet, advanced lightweight armor doesnt have really any place to express itself in a meaningful way at the scale the game plays.

Dandelion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Boltguns should be AP-2 against targets with 5+ armor or worse. That would be a fluffy change.

Or just let marines shoot more with their boltguns. No need for fancy rules that target very specific units.

If for example marines could shoot 3 times in rapid fire vs your idea:
Shooting 3 times (rapid fire)
- 1 marine kills 8/9 GEQ
AP -2 (rapid fire)
- 1 marine kills 8/9 GEQ

Yeah, I think faster-firing Bolters is the way to go with Marines, to improve their anti-Infantry damage output.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh yeah, the FAQ trick that would have been LAUGHED AT if I had posted it here in Dakka the week before.

Doesn't change the fact that marines are consistently performing better than Tyranids.

I assume we are talking soups that have marines in it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Boltguns should be AP-2 against targets with 5+ armor or worse. That would be a fluffy change.

Or just let marines shoot more with their boltguns. No need for fancy rules that target very specific units.

If for example marines could shoot 3 times in rapid fire vs your idea:
Shooting 3 times (rapid fire)
- 1 marine kills 8/9 GEQ
AP -2 (rapid fire)
- 1 marine kills 8/9 GEQ

Lets just drop them to 10 points so I can bring 10 marines for every 20 guardsmen.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I think that GW seems to feel that +1LD is worth a point. I'd done a bit of a deconstruction awhile back and it seems like there's a threshold where stuff actually costs points--LD over 6, 4+ or better saves, weapons with certain values, etc.

Since you seem to believe +1Ld is worth a point, compare 6 pt neophytes to 7pt fire warriors and 7 pt skitarii rangers.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh yeah, the FAQ trick that would have been LAUGHED AT if I had posted it here in Dakka the week before.

Doesn't change the fact that marines are consistently performing better than Tyranids.

I assume we are talking soups that have marines in it?

I mean, everyone Imperium is going to soup a little bit. The only - ONLY - Imperial faction that can consistently stand on its own right now is Guard. Primary ITC faction of Marines.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Flak armour covers everything from Cadians to Tanith. The only way to differentiate them will be actual different squads and rules for "Light" Infantry versus "Shock" Infantry, or giving Cadians Carapace instead of Flak.

Yes, it would be a nice addition to the regiment rules!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nazrak wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Boltguns should be AP-2 against targets with 5+ armor or worse. That would be a fluffy change.

Or just let marines shoot more with their boltguns. No need for fancy rules that target very specific units.

If for example marines could shoot 3 times in rapid fire vs your idea:
Shooting 3 times (rapid fire)
- 1 marine kills 8/9 GEQ
AP -2 (rapid fire)
- 1 marine kills 8/9 GEQ

Yeah, I think faster-firing Bolters is the way to go with Marines, to improve their anti-Infantry damage output.

Yes, saying either 'Astartes bolters fire larger calibers than human scale guns, increase all Astartes bolter APs by 1 (basic to -1, Hve Bolter to -2, etc.)', or 'Astartes can fire Bolt weapons with unerring accuracy, getting more of the rocket projectiles on target, increase the number of shots fired by one for any Bolt weapon used by a marine' would be a needed boost.

Dandelion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

I think that GW seems to feel that +1LD is worth a point. I'd done a bit of a deconstruction awhile back and it seems like there's a threshold where stuff actually costs points--LD over 6, 4+ or better saves, weapons with certain values, etc.

Since you seem to believe +1Ld is worth a point, compare 6 pt neophytes to 7pt fire warriors and 7 pt skitarii rangers.

There's more at play than simply +1LD in that comparison though.

There's a 4+ armor save on FW and Rangers.
There's a difference in weapon Strength in favor of FW and Rangers.

Like I said though, I think that GW seems to feel that +1LD is worth a point. This is, IMO, one of the big issues with the "GEQ" idea--there's really only a handful of units that have that moniker apply to them, and a big chunk of them are frankly in the Guard army. Then you have cases like "GEQ-ish". Neophytes fall under this, they're GEQ statlines with Marine Leadership and Guard weapon options and Conscript unit size options, with an elite unit's alternate deployment options.

The fact that Neophytes are 5 points at all is extremely surprising to me.

 Kcalehc wrote:
... including even making it so infantry squads are much less effective if there's no Officer nearby to command them (making Paltoon Commanders actually useful, and bring back Platoons!)

Making infantry LD 5 and 6 and giving officers a LD 7 aura could do that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

I think that GW seems to feel that +1LD is worth a point. I'd done a bit of a deconstruction awhile back and it seems like there's a threshold where stuff actually costs points--LD over 6, 4+ or better saves, weapons with certain values, etc.

Since you seem to believe +1Ld is worth a point, compare 6 pt neophytes to 7pt fire warriors and 7 pt skitarii rangers.

There's more at play than simply +1LD in that comparison though.

There's a 4+ armor save on FW and Rangers.
There's a difference in weapon Strength in favor of FW and Rangers.

Like I said though, I think that GW seems to feel that +1LD is worth a point. This is, IMO, one of the big issues with the "GEQ" idea--there's really only a handful of units that have that moniker apply to them, and a big chunk of them are frankly in the Guard army. Then you have cases like "GEQ-ish". Neophytes fall under this, they're GEQ statlines with Marine Leadership and Guard weapon options and Conscript unit size options, with an elite unit's alternate deployment options.

The fact that Neophytes are 5 points at all is extremely surprising to me.

GW points things based off of feel AFAIK, there's no x stat is worth x points. And going back to the rangers comparison, I'm trying to show that 1 point encompasses considerably more than just one stat, which is why neophytes can't really be bumped to 6 pts.
Perhaps a more granular approach would be to make squad leaders cost extra points like before though.

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I'd love for the model costs in Kill Team to mostly make it to 40k. I think that might bring things more in line (although CWE might need to find a middleground).

Grey Knights are chodeville in Kill Team.

Not surprising.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Neophytes have superior leadership to guardsmen. If guardsmen were 5 points neophytes would be guardsmen with +1L and better deployment options for the same price.

I think you're really overvaluing those two things. Primarily because Cult Ambush is to GSC as Orders are to Guard, and orders are guaranteed, but ou have to roll for the ambush type, which might suck. And cult ambush is only once a game while orders can be received each turn. And imo +1L is not worth a 20% increase in price especially when it puts neophytes at the same price as veterans who are 33% more killy.

In the grand scheme of things, guardsmen and neophytes are close enough to be the same point cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Just make Infantry squads 45 points. Seriously. That's the only compromise you're gonna get without having to mess with Guard a lot and not have to adjust every other army.

Mandatory voxes then?

Um no? You want it you pay for it.

Dandelion wrote:


GW points things based off of feel AFAIK, there's no x stat is worth x points.

There's a bit of method to the madness there, but I don't think they'll ever reveal it.

And going back to the rangers comparison, I'm trying to show that 1 point encompasses considerably more than just one stat, which is why neophytes can't really be bumped to 6 pts.

You'll notice that I have not suggested Neophytes should be bumped up. From what I was reading(and I might be attributing intent that he didn't have) in his post, it seemed like he was saying that if Guard got brought up to Neophytes' points then Neophytes become Infantry Squads +1.

I also feel like it's worth mentioning that Tau stuff has always been strangely pointed.

Perhaps a more granular approach would be to make squad leaders cost extra points like before though.

Maybe, but it would have to be pointed for base model+whatever stat upgrades or benefits they bring IMO.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Um no? You want it you pay for it.

I might be reading into intent, but I think he was suggesting that voxes become a permanent part of the squad and the points gets rolled into the squad's cost to bring them up to 45pts.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dandelion wrote:


GW points things based off of feel AFAIK, there's no x stat is worth x points.

There's a bit of method to the madness there, but I don't think they'll ever reveal it.

And going back to the rangers comparison, I'm trying to show that 1 point encompasses considerably more than just one stat, which is why neophytes can't really be bumped to 6 pts.

You'll notice that I have not suggested Neophytes should be bumped up. From what I was reading(and I might be attributing intent that he didn't have) in his post, it seemed like he was saying that if Guard got brought up to Neophytes' points then Neophytes become Infantry Squads +1.

I also feel like it's worth mentioning that Tau stuff has always been strangely pointed.

Perhaps a more granular approach would be to make squad leaders cost extra points like before though.

Maybe, but it would have to be pointed for base model+whatever stat upgrades or benefits they bring IMO.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Um no? You want it you pay for it.

I might be reading into intent, but I think he was suggesting that voxes become a permanent part of the squad and the points gets rolled into the squad's cost to bring them up to 45pts.

While that might be more simplistic, I was looking for more of a compromise for people saying they're mathematically strong even at 5 points (which they are), while not having to bump tons of other troop choices up a point just because you want them to more match (Rangers and Fire Warriors are fine as is to be honest).

Seeing you can't change the squad size, the flat cost made sense. However I don't know how the AM codex is laid out.

I'm also a fan of a 30k fix for Conscripts where the first 20 or so are costed at 3.5 or 4 points, and anything after that is 3 points. Probably too convoluted but still.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

While that might be more simplistic, I was looking for more of a compromise for people saying they're mathematically strong even at 5 points (which they are), while not having to bump tons of other troop choices up a point just because you want them to more match (Rangers and Fire Warriors are fine as is to be honest).

I'm in agreement with you that Rangers+Fire Warriors are fine as is. My big thing keeps coming to bringing Infantry Squads up to their level in terms of loadouts, equipment, etc--I think "GEQ" at this point is dead as a concept. We seem to be more into FWEQ territory these days.

Seeing you can't change the squad size, the flat cost made sense. However I don't know how the AM codex is laid out.

Infantry Squads have the following notes to be aware of:
9 Guardsmen and 1 Sergeant(you cannot add models to this unit, outside of the "Consolidate Squads" stratagem)
1 model can carry a Vox-Caster
1 model can carry a Special Weapon
Two models can be organized into a Heavy Weapons Team
The 9 Guardsmen have Lasgun and Frag Grenades
The Sergeant has a Laspistol and Frag Grenades
Sergeant can replace their laspistol with an item from the Ranged Weapons list(Boltgun, Plasma Pistol, Bolt Pistol)
Sergeant may take a Chainsword or Power Sword

I'm also a fan of a 30k fix for Conscripts where the first 20 or so are costed at 3.5 or 4 points, and anything after that is 3 points. Probably too convoluted but still.

Honestly, I think they did the best thing by making them cap out at 30 models.

So it sounds like it wouldn't be terribly hard to just have a single entry that says Infantry squads are 45 flat. I'd encourage people to try that.

If Guardsmen are strong at 5ppm, and there are 5ppm units that are stronger than Guardsmen, then wouldn't those units need to go up?

Alternately, if there are 5ppm units that are better than guardsmen, and they're not strong enough to go up in points, then how can Guardsmen be worth 5ppm?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So it sounds like it wouldn't be terribly hard to just have a single entry that says Infantry squads are 45 flat. I'd encourage people to try that.

Bear in mind that Vox-Casters do cost points. They don't really cost anything in the normal entry since it relies on Power and the Power level seems to be a bit higher than the points level was.

Infantry Squads were 3 Power, Conscript Squads were 3 Power, and 5 man Scion Squads were 3 Power.
+1 Power for another 10 Conscripts, +2 for another 5 Scions

Translated over to points:
4 points per Infantry Squad member, 3 points per Conscript, 10 points per Scion(technically 9 but Hellguns and Hellpistols were 1 point each as well and part of the base profile).
40 points for Infantry Squad
60 points for Conscripts
50 points for Scions

So 3 Power apparently covers 40 points minimum in the Guard book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
If Guardsmen are strong at 5ppm, and there are 5ppm units that are stronger than Guardsmen, then wouldn't those units need to go up?

Alternately, if there are 5ppm units that are better than guardsmen, and they're not strong enough to go up in points, then how can Guardsmen be worth 5ppm?

One big issue with the Neophyte entry, at least IMO, is that it's supposed to encompass a PDF squad or generic cultists rising up...yet somehow the PDF squad has the ability to take a bit more 'oomph' at times than the Guard do.

I'd like to see Hybrid Neophytes split into two units.
Brood Brothers(the PDF Squad), set at static unit size that can't be changed
Hybrid Neophytes(the generic cultists)