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Bharring wrote:
If Guardsmen are strong at 5ppm, and there are 5ppm units that are stronger than Guardsmen, then wouldn't those units need to go up?

Alternately, if there are 5ppm units that are better than guardsmen, and they're not strong enough to go up in points, then how can Guardsmen be worth 5ppm?

What 5ppm unit is stronger than infantry squads in real terms?

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
If Guardsmen are strong at 5ppm, and there are 5ppm units that are stronger than Guardsmen, then wouldn't those units need to go up?

Alternately, if there are 5ppm units that are better than guardsmen, and they're not strong enough to go up in points, then how can Guardsmen be worth 5ppm?

What 5ppm unit is stronger than infantry squads in real terms?

What are we defining as "real terms"?

His post is in response to the conversation going on about Neophyte Hybrids--a unit with mostly the same statline. They're Marine leadership(7 and 8) with a watered down Deep Strike.
Neophytes have the same weapon options as Infantry Squads--right down to being able to take Mortars--but can double the squad size to provide a bit more protection for the Heavy Weapons Team.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
If Guardsmen are strong at 5ppm, and there are 5ppm units that are stronger than Guardsmen, then wouldn't those units need to go up?

Alternately, if there are 5ppm units that are better than guardsmen, and they're not strong enough to go up in points, then how can Guardsmen be worth 5ppm?

What 5ppm unit is stronger than infantry squads in real terms?

What are we defining as "real terms"?

His post is in response to the conversation going on about Neophyte Hybrids--a unit with mostly the same statline. They're Marine leadership(7 and 8) with a watered down Deep Strike.
Neophytes have the same weapon options as Infantry Squads--right down to being able to take Mortars--but can double the squad size to provide a bit more protection for the Heavy Weapons Team.

Real terms a game advantage worth points

Being able to bring extra dudes they pay points for doesn't make them worth more points per model.
So they loose regiment traits for their own faction rules not really seeing the issue there.
Leadership of +1 isn't worth a point people either need the squad dead and will kill it as they arn't going to be chaning it surviving moral losses.
Or they are just splashing damage output onto a random target for lack of another and might get 1 more dude of and infantry squad compaired to neophytes who in 20 man units will take more casualties to moral anyway. The joys of smaller unit's means moral has a maximum kill potential.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
If Guardsmen are strong at 5ppm, and there are 5ppm units that are stronger than Guardsmen, then wouldn't those units need to go up?

Alternately, if there are 5ppm units that are better than guardsmen, and they're not strong enough to go up in points, then how can Guardsmen be worth 5ppm?

What 5ppm unit is stronger than infantry squads in real terms?

What are we defining as "real terms"?

His post is in response to the conversation going on about Neophyte Hybrids--a unit with mostly the same statline. They're Marine leadership(7 and 8) with a watered down Deep Strike.
Neophytes have the same weapon options as Infantry Squads--right down to being able to take Mortars--but can double the squad size to provide a bit more protection for the Heavy Weapons Team.

Real terms a game advantage worth points

Being able to bring extra dudes they pay points for doesn't make them worth more points per model.

To be blunt, it really can be a part of the reason for the formula. 80 point 20 man squads with Autoguns or Lasguns that can potentially come into your back field and unload with 2 Special Weapons and 2 Heavy Mining Weapons or a Heavy Weapons Team can be a Not Good Thing.

So they loose regiment traits for their own faction rules not really seeing the issue there.

I really wish people would stop conflating the Cult Ambush rules with regimental traits or orders. It's a watered down alternate deployment method.

Leadership of +1 isn't worth a point people either need the squad dead and will kill it as they arn't going to be chaning it surviving moral losses.
Or they are just splashing damage output onto a random target for lack of another and might get 1 more dude of and infantry squad compaired to neophytes who in 20 man units will take more casualties to moral anyway. The joys of smaller unit's means moral has a maximum kill potential.

I kill 7 models from a LD6(7) unit--they're almost guaranteed to be failing. An Infantry Squad can burn some Command Points to reduce the casualties however.
I kill 7 models from a LD7(8) unit--they're not going to be failing as hard as the LD6(7) and the LD7(8) unit has access to morale modifying auras.

Having larger numbers was why people hated Conscripts early on, an "auto-pass Morale" aura is also what they disliked--GSC have access to both of those.

Auto-pass morale means more when you have the best shooting in the entire game backing you up. Auto pass morale for a close range/assault army is an entirely different story.

 Marmatag wrote:
Auto-pass morale means more when you have the best shooting in the entire game backing you up. Auto pass morale for a close range/assault army is an entirely different story.

You know that GSC can bring in a Guard Detachment as Brood Brothers, yeah? And that they have access to a large portion of the Guard's shooting within their actual army?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Auto-pass morale means more when you have the best shooting in the entire game backing you up. Auto pass morale for a close range/assault army is an entirely different story.

You know that GSC can bring in a Guard Detachment as Brood Brothers, yeah? And that they have access to a large portion of the Guard's shooting within their actual army?

Then you should support full deletion of all regiment specific abilities, stratagems, tactics, etc from the guard codex right? Since they're so pointless you can just hand wave through them.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Auto-pass morale means more when you have the best shooting in the entire game backing you up. Auto pass morale for a close range/assault army is an entirely different story.

You know that GSC can bring in a Guard Detachment as Brood Brothers, yeah? And that they have access to a large portion of the Guard's shooting within their actual army?

Then you should support full deletion of all regiment specific abilities, stratagems, tactics, etc from the guard codex right? Since they're so pointless you can just hand wave through them.

Fwoosh. That's you missing the point.

Brood Brothers lets you take a faction that has no shared keywords/faction as an Ally. That is huge.
We also don't know if Brood Brothers will actually do the same thing come the GSC codex or if it will do something more significant for a Guard Detachment taken as Allies.

Also, Brood Brothers locks you out of <Regiment> restricted stuff...but not anything AM specific. So while you lose access to Regiment specific stuff, that's still a pretty damn big deal.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
If Guardsmen are strong at 5ppm, and there are 5ppm units that are stronger than Guardsmen, then wouldn't those units need to go up?

Alternately, if there are 5ppm units that are better than guardsmen, and they're not strong enough to go up in points, then how can Guardsmen be worth 5ppm?

What 5ppm unit is stronger than infantry squads in real terms?

What are we defining as "real terms"?

His post is in response to the conversation going on about Neophyte Hybrids--a unit with mostly the same statline. They're Marine leadership(7 and 8) with a watered down Deep Strike.
Neophytes have the same weapon options as Infantry Squads--right down to being able to take Mortars--but can double the squad size to provide a bit more protection for the Heavy Weapons Team.

Real terms a game advantage worth points

Being able to bring extra dudes they pay points for doesn't make them worth more points per model.

To be blunt, it really can be a part of the reason for the formula. 80 point 20 man squads with Autoguns or Lasguns that can potentially come into your back field and unload with 2 Special Weapons and 2 Heavy Mining Weapons or a Heavy Weapons Team can be a Not Good Thing.

So they loose regiment traits for their own faction rules not really seeing the issue there.

I really wish people would stop conflating the Cult Ambush rules with regimental traits or orders. It's a watered down alternate deployment method.

Leadership of +1 isn't worth a point people either need the squad dead and will kill it as they arn't going to be chaning it surviving moral losses.
Or they are just splashing damage output onto a random target for lack of another and might get 1 more dude of and infantry squad compaired to neophytes who in 20 man units will take more casualties to moral anyway. The joys of smaller unit's means moral has a maximum kill potential.

I kill 7 models from a LD6(7) unit--they're almost guaranteed to be failing. An Infantry Squad can burn some Command Points to reduce the casualties however.
I kill 7 models from a LD7(8) unit--they're not going to be failing as hard as the LD6(7) and the LD7(8) unit has access to morale modifying auras.

Having larger numbers was why people hated Conscripts early on, an "auto-pass Morale" aura is also what they disliked--GSC have access to both of those.

How have neophytes suddenly taken a 20% point cut in you example? You want to explain that one or is this just more false narative manufacturing to deny 4ppm guardsmen are undercosted?

I can't believe this didn't end with a BS 4+ model with 5+ armor with a 24" gun being worth more than 4 pts.

Martel732 wrote:
I can't believe this didn't end with a BS 4+ model with 5+ armor with a 24" gun being worth more than 4 pts.

That's Because they are 100% worth 5 points a model minimum.

Martel732 wrote:
I can't believe this didn't end with a BS 4+ model with 5+ armor with a 24" gun being worth more than 4 pts.

And last edition we laughed at the profile for being 5 points!

I mean I can't believe the argument didn't end there is what I meant. These guys are 1 pt more than grots. Go look at a grot. They are the same as stock termangants. Really?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can't believe this didn't end with a BS 4+ model with 5+ armor with a 24" gun being worth more than 4 pts.

And last edition we laughed at the profile for being 5 points!

How does 7th edition rules have to do with how much a model is worth in 8th?
This is the same logic GW has used that kept many units unplayable overcosted.

Ice_can wrote:

How have neophytes suddenly taken a 20% point cut in you example? You want to explain that one or is this just more false narative manufacturing to deny 4ppm guardsmen are undercosted?

It was based upon the idea that Neophytes are somehow exactly the same as Guardsmen and that you shouldn't have to pay points for having more models in a unit.

Since we seem to be playing fast and loose with theoreticals, I'd assume you would have caught that it was theoretical from the outset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can't believe this didn't end with a BS 4+ model with 5+ armor with a 24" gun being worth more than 4 pts.

That's Because they are 100% worth 5 points a model minimum.

Only if they're LD7(8) and forward deploying, apparently.

Martel732 wrote:
I can't believe this didn't end with a BS 4+ model with 5+ armor with a 24" gun being worth more than 4 pts.

Because the goalposts are constantly shifted. We kicked a field goal from the SOUP yardline, and the goalposts moved. Then we kicked another one from the TOURNAMENT yardline, and the goalposts jumped again. Now we're setting up a field goal from GENESTEALER CULTS yards away, and the goalposts are starting to quiver.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can't believe this didn't end with a BS 4+ model with 5+ armor with a 24" gun being worth more than 4 pts.

Because the goalposts are constantly shifted. We kicked a field goal from the SOUP yardline, and the goalposts moved. Then we kicked another one from the TOURNAMENT yardline, and the goalposts jumped again. Now we're setting up a field goal from GENESTEALER CULTS yards away, and the goalposts are starting to quiver.

Except you still haven't proven definitively that the unit is worth 5 points per model. You've argued that it is, but for someone who keeps trying to point to tournament representation and then being told time and time again that the stats don't support your argument it's quite interesting to see you discussing "goalposts shifting".

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

How have neophytes suddenly taken a 20% point cut in you example? You want to explain that one or is this just more false narative manufacturing to deny 4ppm guardsmen are undercosted?

It was based upon the idea that Neophytes are somehow exactly the same as Guardsmen and that you shouldn't have to pay points for having more models in a unit.

Since we seem to be playing fast and loose with theoreticals, I'd assume you would have caught that it was theoretical from the outset.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can't believe this didn't end with a BS 4+ model with 5+ armor with a 24" gun being worth more than 4 pts.

That's Because they are 100% worth 5 points a model minimum.

Only if they're LD7(8) and forward deploying, apparently.

BULL you got caught lying and are downplaying so you can keep up an unsupportable position.

Well at this point I can only say you deserve all the CA nerfing you get roll on 6ppm guardsmen.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can't believe this didn't end with a BS 4+ model with 5+ armor with a 24" gun being worth more than 4 pts.

Because the goalposts are constantly shifted. We kicked a field goal from the SOUP yardline, and the goalposts moved. Then we kicked another one from the TOURNAMENT yardline, and the goalposts jumped again. Now we're setting up a field goal from GENESTEALER CULTS yards away, and the goalposts are starting to quiver.

I don't think any of that is necessary, but I guess some do.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

How have neophytes suddenly taken a 20% point cut in you example? You want to explain that one or is this just more false narative manufacturing to deny 4ppm guardsmen are undercosted?

It was based upon the idea that Neophytes are somehow exactly the same as Guardsmen and that you shouldn't have to pay points for having more models in a unit.

Since we seem to be playing fast and loose with theoreticals, I'd assume you would have caught that it was theoretical from the outset.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can't believe this didn't end with a BS 4+ model with 5+ armor with a 24" gun being worth more than 4 pts.

That's Because they are 100% worth 5 points a model minimum.

Only if they're LD7(8) and forward deploying, apparently.

BULL you got caught lying and are downplaying so you can keep up an unsupportable position.

So this is really all you have?

I've been fairly polite with you. I've admitted when I've made mistakes in mathing or rules. Given that this whole fricking thread has constantly had people moving goalposts or positing hypotheticals and never calling them out, I'd assumed you would have been able to figure that out from the start.

Well at this point I can only say you deserve all the CA nerfing you get roll on 6ppm guardsmen.

And as soon as 6ppm Guardsmen happen, I expect to see Conscripts back in the mix and you lot back in here whining about that.

Dandelion wrote:
I think you're really overvaluing those two things. Primarily because Cult Ambush is to GSC as Orders are to Guard, and orders are guaranteed, but ou have to roll for the ambush type, which might suck. And cult ambush is only once a game while orders can be received each turn. And imo +1L is not worth a 20% increase in price especially when it puts neophytes at the same price as veterans who are 33% more killy.

Oh I agree that +1L and slightly better deployment options aren't worth a 20% increase in price (shifting neophytes to 6ppm). However, the fact that neophytes would be a direct upgrade to guardsmen for the same points costs would mean they need nerfs no? Otherwise you are just contradicting yourself.

I'm just trying to get this straight. I'm already convinced that guardsmen should be 5ppm, I'm just seriously baffled why everyone is not also supporting nerfs to infantry that are provably and mathematically superior in every respect to 5ppm guardsmen.

I don't get how you guys can be saying guardsmen are "worth" 5ppm and in the same breath say that neophytes who have the exact same stats as guardsmen, and the exact same weapons, with +1L, better deployment options, and a larger squad size should be the exact same price. That reeks of anti-guard bias.

w1zard wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
I think you're really overvaluing those two things. Primarily because Cult Ambush is to GSC as Orders are to Guard, and orders are guaranteed, but ou have to roll for the ambush type, which might suck. And cult ambush is only once a game while orders can be received each turn. And imo +1L is not worth a 20% increase in price especially when it puts neophytes at the same price as veterans who are 33% more killy.

Oh I agree that +1L and slightly better deployment options aren't worth a 20% increase in price (shifting neophytes to 6ppm). However, the fact that neophytes would be a direct upgrade to guardsmen for the same points costs would mean they need nerfs no? Otherwise you are just contradicting yourself.

I'm just trying to get this straight. I'm already convinced that guardsmen should be 5ppm, I'm just seriously baffled why everyone is not also supporting nerfs to infantry that are provably and mathematically superior in every respect to 5ppm guardsmen.

Because they loose cadian, Catachan or other regiment traits for those deployment options.
Meaning its realy just +1 Ld which isn't worth +point.

Ice_can wrote:
Meaning its realy just +1 Ld which isn't worth +point.

Again, +1L isn't worth a point but it means they are flat out better than guardsmen for the same price... like a direct upgrade (same stats, same weapons, just better). That doesn't seem wrong at all to you?

You are also forgetting that the GSC book hasn't come out yet. We may very well see neophytes with regimental traits or something similar.

Ice_can wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
I think you're really overvaluing those two things. Primarily because Cult Ambush is to GSC as Orders are to Guard, and orders are guaranteed, but ou have to roll for the ambush type, which might suck. And cult ambush is only once a game while orders can be received each turn. And imo +1L is not worth a 20% increase in price especially when it puts neophytes at the same price as veterans who are 33% more killy.

Oh I agree that +1L and slightly better deployment options aren't worth a 20% increase in price (shifting neophytes to 6ppm). However, the fact that neophytes would be a direct upgrade to guardsmen for the same points costs would mean they need nerfs no? Otherwise you are just contradicting yourself.

I'm just trying to get this straight. I'm already convinced that guardsmen should be 5ppm, I'm just seriously baffled why everyone is not also supporting nerfs to infantry that are provably and mathematically superior in every respect to 5ppm guardsmen.

Because they loose cadian, Catachan or other regiment traits for those deployment options.

It's almost like they aren't Astra Militarum!

Meaning its realy just +1 Ld which isn't worth +point.

It's MEQ Ld values. If you want worse values, I'm sure they'll oblige to bring you in line with Infantry Squads at 5ppm.

w1zard wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Meaning its realy just +1 Ld which isn't worth +point.

Again, +1L isn't worth a point but it means they are flat out better than guardsmen for the same price... like a direct upgrade (same stats, same weapons, just better). That doesn't seem wrong at all to you?

You are also forgetting that the GSC book hasn't come out yet. We may very well see neophytes with regimental traits or something similar.

We also might see them go up 2 points, but since we haven't seen their codex yet it's best to leave them be for now. If they do end up with new traits and the same price point then we can talk about needing a points increase.

 DrGiggles wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Meaning its realy just +1 Ld which isn't worth +point.

Again, +1L isn't worth a point but it means they are flat out better than guardsmen for the same price... like a direct upgrade (same stats, same weapons, just better). That doesn't seem wrong at all to you?

You are also forgetting that the GSC book hasn't come out yet. We may very well see neophytes with regimental traits or something similar.

We also might see them go up 2 points, but since we haven't seen their codex yet it's best to leave them be for now. If they do end up with new traits and the same price point then we can talk about needing a points increase.

We'll get an idea with the boxed set coming out this weekend, if Aberrants and Hybrids have seen some differences it might be a good 'snapshot' of where they're thinking with the Codex.

I doubt we'll see a <Cult> because they seem to get a benefit instead for the ability to take a Guard Detachment with Brood Brother replacing <Regiment>.

 DrGiggles wrote:
We also might see them go up 2 points, but since we haven't seen their codex yet it's best to leave them be for now. If they do end up with new traits and the same price point then we can talk about needing a points increase.

But in their current iteration they are too powerful correct? Again... straight up superior to 5ppm guardsmen.

I really wish people would stop dodging this.

w1zard wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Meaning its realy just +1 Ld which isn't worth +point.

Again, +1L isn't worth a point but it means they are flat out better than guardsmen for the same price... like a direct upgrade (same stats, same weapons, just better). That doesn't seem wrong at all to you?

You are also forgetting that the GSC book hasn't come out yet. We may very well see neophytes with regimental traits or something similar.

At which point they might be worth 6ppm, we can only deal with the facts as they are not how they might be in 4 months. They could also get some horrible codex and be even weaker.

As for the issue of it not being worth a point but being better, that is the issue of continuous reducing points the scale gets too compressed to allow for granularity.

w1zard wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:
We also might see them go up 2 points, but since we haven't seen their codex yet it's best to leave them be for now. If they do end up with new traits and the same price point then we can talk about needing a points increase.

But in their current iteration they are too powerful correct? Again... straight up superior to 5ppm guardsmen.

I really wish people would stop dodging this.

They'll continue dodging it because they'd rather have a narrative that Guard players are willfully deceptive or don't "appreciate" their book.

We're supposed to be a NPC race, just like Orks and Tyranids.

w1zard wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:
We also might see them go up 2 points, but since we haven't seen their codex yet it's best to leave them be for now. If they do end up with new traits and the same price point then we can talk about needing a points increase.

But in their current iteration they are too powerful correct? Again... straight up superior to 5ppm guardsmen.

I really wish people would stop dodging this.

Not dodging it but the answer to it is definitely not forcing every other model in the game to come down in points to be competitive as every point dropped just increases the amount of things that will be different but not worth a point differences.