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BrianDavion wrote: *sighs* Jesus H fething Christ people need to stop seeing the codex as "tactics by numbers" thats not what the codex fething is, go read codex Space Mariens, not ONCE does it ever fething talk about the codex in such a way, rather it talks about the codex in terms of orginization. the codex is not "here is how you fight in this case" it's "This is how you orginize a space marine chapter, here is a selection of tactical reccomendations for it" there's no broad paint by numbers stragety, if there was the Ultramarines would not have been able to fight the Tyranids or the Necrons, or the Tau or the other countless other enemies that Gulliman wouldn't have been able to discuss because they wheren't fething in existance when the codex was written.
Read Age of Darkness (rules of engagement) that's exactly what Guilliman intended it for. The codex failed during the wargames and Guilliman admitted he had failed and that you could never codify all scenarios for warfare, so he just used it from that point on as a guideline. Why the hell are you so angry... Don't have the book with me, so I'll quote it tomorrow, but if you have the book its easy to find its the last few pages of the short story.
You mean exactly what the Tactica Imperium is? Same thing as the codex but for the guard. From Lexicanums page on the tactica: "The Tactica is not meant to be taken too literally though. In war, circumstances change too quickly to refer every decision to a book. Its virtue is that it provides reference for new officers and there is always a chance that guidance can be found on a critical issue." Want to know the big difference? "The collection of books comprising the Tactica is therefore constantly being updated, often at a different place, as the sheer size of the Imperium precludes any true standardization".
Anyway, on topic. I'm not a fan of bringing the setting forward. I do like it that Big G returned and that he's formed his own sub empire. I don't like it that he's trying to break the fanaticism and insane Emperor worship that's the staple of the Imperium. I also don't like how the Inquisition appears to be increasingly neglected in both the board game and the lore. I've never really cared much for the HH and always considered the primarchs a somewhat silly concepts. There should at the very least be primarch equivalents among the Eldar and Necrons (You know, that used to have literal gods on the tabletop). I have a hard time believeing that a primarch would be above an Avatar or an demon prince (of say Tzeentch) in terms of planning and physical power. They're basicly comic book super heroes in 40k. I did however very much like the idea that 10.000 years had exagerated what they where really like. That they where more inspirational then functional. Most of the early HH books where written from the percpective of space marines and/or humans who thought they where awesome so it was very open to interpretation. Now they're pretty much confirmed super heroes with quirky personalities.
Ah, didn't intend for this to become a primarch rant. In any case I actually do look forward to what will happen when the rest of them gets introduced (contradictory but be happy about what you get I guess). I hope they go the route of the Lion being traitor and Luther being loyalist, as well as making Russ a demon monster or something. Maybe even have one of the traitor primarchs go full pacifist, deciding that the constant wars is meaningless and be stripped of his demon powers. stuff like that. If you're going to change the setting from the ground up then at the very least change the primarchs. The setting hasn't been standing still in 10.000years (I'd love to debate this in a diffrent thread). Why should the primarchs have?
No one is talking about the Tactica...
He's suggesting that eaither 1: the codex isn't much differant from the tactica. or he's suggesting that the short story wasn't about the orgin of the codex but the orgin of the Tactica.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
The thing we have to remember is that the game and the background are connected. And the game had stagnated along with the back ground. It’s not so bad for background but GW needed to sell more new marines and they had run out of normal marines to do. Hell, they even put marines inside other marine suits. The line was full. So...primaris and a way to make that happen. Yes the primaris fluff is a bit iffy (or shocking, depending on your ability it ignore it) but I think the rift and the dark imperium and chaos getting a win is great. It opens up huge story line potential, from big galaxy shifting things to small things. Our groups battles are all fought on a world we made up that happened to be on the dark side of the rift. It’s thrown our narrative on its head and we have had 100+ Years. We now have renegades and religious cults. Chaos is popping up and it’s great. We are making lots of home brewed rules and units. It’s really moved it up a gear.
I think they skipped a few years ahead so that things could settle down, the astronomicon could spark up and the setting is similar to before in terms of power balance but it’s on a knife edge. After the codexs are done I hope they move things forward again. They have done it well with AOS. And I’m now into that setting where as pre malign portents I couldn’t get into it.
BrianDavion wrote: *sighs* Jesus H fething Christ people need to stop seeing the codex as "tactics by numbers" thats not what the codex fething is, go read codex Space Mariens, not ONCE does it ever fething talk about the codex in such a way, rather it talks about the codex in terms of orginization. the codex is not "here is how you fight in this case" it's "This is how you orginize a space marine chapter, here is a selection of tactical reccomendations for it" there's no broad paint by numbers stragety, if there was the Ultramarines would not have been able to fight the Tyranids or the Necrons, or the Tau or the other countless other enemies that Gulliman wouldn't have been able to discuss because they wheren't fething in existance when the codex was written.
Read Age of Darkness (rules of engagement) that's exactly what Guilliman intended it for. The codex failed during the wargames and Guilliman admitted he had failed and that you could never codify all scenarios for warfare, so he just used it from that point on as a guideline. Why the hell are you so angry... Don't have the book with me, so I'll quote it tomorrow, but if you have the book its easy to find its the last few pages of the short story.
You mean exactly what the Tactica Imperium is? Same thing as the codex but for the guard. From Lexicanums page on the tactica: "The Tactica is not meant to be taken too literally though. In war, circumstances change too quickly to refer every decision to a book. Its virtue is that it provides reference for new officers and there is always a chance that guidance can be found on a critical issue." Want to know the big difference? "The collection of books comprising the Tactica is therefore constantly being updated, often at a different place, as the sheer size of the Imperium precludes any true standardization".
Anyway, on topic. I'm not a fan of bringing the setting forward. I do like it that Big G returned and that he's formed his own sub empire. I don't like it that he's trying to break the fanaticism and insane Emperor worship that's the staple of the Imperium. I also don't like how the Inquisition appears to be increasingly neglected in both the board game and the lore. I've never really cared much for the HH and always considered the primarchs a somewhat silly concepts. There should at the very least be primarch equivalents among the Eldar and Necrons (You know, that used to have literal gods on the tabletop). I have a hard time believeing that a primarch would be above an Avatar or an demon prince (of say Tzeentch) in terms of planning and physical power. They're basicly comic book super heroes in 40k. I did however very much like the idea that 10.000 years had exagerated what they where really like. That they where more inspirational then functional. Most of the early HH books where written from the percpective of space marines and/or humans who thought they where awesome so it was very open to interpretation. Now they're pretty much confirmed super heroes with quirky personalities.
Ah, didn't intend for this to become a primarch rant. In any case I actually do look forward to what will happen when the rest of them gets introduced (contradictory but be happy about what you get I guess). I hope they go the route of the Lion being traitor and Luther being loyalist, as well as making Russ a demon monster or something. Maybe even have one of the traitor primarchs go full pacifist, deciding that the constant wars is meaningless and be stripped of his demon powers. stuff like that. If you're going to change the setting from the ground up then at the very least change the primarchs. The setting hasn't been standing still in 10.000years (I'd love to debate this in a diffrent thread). Why should the primarchs have?
No one is talking about the Tactica...
He's suggesting that eaither 1: the codex isn't much differant from the tactica. or he's suggesting that the short story wasn't about the orgin of the codex but the orgin of the Tactica.
It was about the Codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote: The thing we have to remember is that the game and the background are connected. And the game had stagnated along with the back ground. It’s not so bad for background but GW needed to sell more new marines and they had run out of normal marines to do. Hell, they even put marines inside other marine suits. The line was full. So...primaris and a way to make that happen. Yes the primaris fluff is a bit iffy (or shocking, depending on your ability it ignore it) but I think the rift and the dark imperium and chaos getting a win is great. It opens up huge story line potential, from big galaxy shifting things to small things. Our groups battles are all fought on a world we made up that happened to be on the dark side of the rift. It’s thrown our narrative on its head and we have had 100+ Years. We now have renegades and religious cults. Chaos is popping up and it’s great. We are making lots of home brewed rules and units. It’s really moved it up a gear.
I think they skipped a few years ahead so that things could settle down, the astronomicon could spark up and the setting is similar to before in terms of power balance but it’s on a knife edge. After the codexs are done I hope they move things forward again. They have done it well with AOS. And I’m now into that setting where as pre malign portents I couldn’t get into it.
They could have just made truescale marines. I would have liked that so much more. The 2 wounds are great but I think all marines should be 2 wounds and they could have just made normal marines W2.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/06 23:29:03
Andykp wrote: Before 8th edition everyone wanted the story line moving forward. Now they want it leaving alone. Bringing back any of the primarchs isn’t changing any “lore”. It’s a new storyline in a time we haven’t been to before. It’s adding to the “lore”. And anyway the background changes all the time. In major ways. Just ask necrons fans. Roboute coming back hasn’t changed what happened in the past. He has always been in stasis and even healing about while in stasis. All the loyal primarchs have had a “could come back story” for a while. I for one would be happy to stick with 2nd edition fluff before blacklibrary made everyone take it too seriously.
[i use “lore” in “” as it is a silly term for the background to a huge open plan sandbox that is the 40k universe.]
I think the general consensus people wanted was for bad things to happen to the Imperium and things generally to go to s***. For example, the opening of the Great Rift was a great move, but the issue is that we skipped over the entirety of that part by advancing it to the end of the Indomitus Crusade. Its also not great because of the introduction of Primaris Marines and Guilliman. Suddenly, the Imperium has a singular leader to follow and obey the likes of which haven't been seen since the Great Crusade when the Emperor still walked. They have bigger, tougher, better Space Marines and vehicles, a revised Codex Astartes, a more reactive and proactive ruling body because Guilliman has taken over. Despite the Great Rift, things have never looked more optimistic for the Imperium. The big bag Tyranids have been scattered and stopped in their tracks, the Tau are still a tiny faction, the Eldar are even more fractured and some soft-allied to the Imperium after the Ultramar Campaign. The Orks have seemingly dissappeared because I've heard nothing about them since 8th dropped, as have Necrons.
The only thing 8th did was forcefully establish Chaos as the big bad of the universe in a big way, which is great, but it really feels like the Imperium has a better chance now than it did in any previous edition.
I think the route that most people wanted was to see what happens when the Tyranids start munching huge chucks of the Segementum Solar and the Thirteenth Black Crusade smashes past Cadia, the Tau finally discover FTL, all the Orks unite under Ghazghkull, the Eldar start wiping out systems for breakfast and the Imperium literally doesn't have enough enough Space Marines and Imperial Guard. There was talk of a broken Imperium where the Imperials are on the backfoot, in hiding and on the defensive, or a divided Imperium of those close to Terra being safe and those in the North or East being royally screwed by Xenos on all sides. There was hope with the Great Rift splitting the Galaxy but GW ruined that to save the Blood Angels with the Crusade.
A much better version in my opinion, would be to have the Blood Angel Chapters split in half, with a loyal side led by Dante and a few other special characters, and a rebel half that turned to Chaos in return for saving them from Tyranids. The rebel half control the Northern Imperium, and the surviving loyalists flee to the South and have a proper division. No Guilliman and certainly no Primaris.
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Andykp wrote: Before 8th edition everyone wanted the story line moving forward. Now they want it leaving alone. Bringing back any of the primarchs isn’t changing any “lore”. It’s a new storyline in a time we haven’t been to before. It’s adding to the “lore”. And anyway the background changes all the time. In major ways. Just ask necrons fans. Roboute coming back hasn’t changed what happened in the past. He has always been in stasis and even healing about while in stasis. All the loyal primarchs have had a “could come back story” for a while. I for one would be happy to stick with 2nd edition fluff before blacklibrary made everyone take it too seriously.
[i use “lore” in “” as it is a silly term for the background to a huge open plan sandbox that is the 40k universe.]
I think the general consensus people wanted was for bad things to happen to the Imperium and things generally to go to s***. For example, the opening of the Great Rift was a great move, but the issue is that we skipped over the entirety of that part by advancing it to the end of the Indomitus Crusade. Its also not great because of the introduction of Primaris Marines and Guilliman. Suddenly, the Imperium has a singular leader to follow and obey the likes of which haven't been seen since the Great Crusade when the Emperor still walked. They have bigger, tougher, better Space Marines and vehicles, a revised Codex Astartes, a more reactive and proactive ruling body because Guilliman has taken over. Despite the Great Rift, things have never looked more optimistic for the Imperium. The big bag Tyranids have been scattered and stopped in their tracks, the Tau are still a tiny faction, the Eldar are even more fractured and some soft-allied to the Imperium after the Ultramar Campaign. The Orks have seemingly dissappeared because I've heard nothing about them since 8th dropped, as have Necrons.
The only thing 8th did was forcefully establish Chaos as the big bad of the universe in a big way, which is great, but it really feels like the Imperium has a better chance now than it did in any previous edition.
I think the route that most people wanted was to see what happens when the Tyranids start munching huge chucks of the Segementum Solar and the Thirteenth Black Crusade smashes past Cadia, the Tau finally discover FTL, all the Orks unite under Ghazghkull, the Eldar start wiping out systems for breakfast and the Imperium literally doesn't have enough enough Space Marines and Imperial Guard. There was talk of a broken Imperium where the Imperials are on the backfoot, in hiding and on the defensive, or a divided Imperium of those close to Terra being safe and those in the North or East being royally screwed by Xenos on all sides. There was hope with the Great Rift splitting the Galaxy but GW ruined that to save the Blood Angels with the Crusade.
A much better version in my opinion, would be to have the Blood Angel Chapters split in half, with a loyal side led by Dante and a few other special characters, and a rebel half that turned to Chaos in return for saving them from Tyranids. The rebel half control the Northern Imperium, and the surviving loyalists flee to the South and have a proper division. No Guilliman and certainly no Primaris.
excep everything Gulliman's done... isn't eneugh. the IoM has still lost a ton with the fall of Cadia. the problem is Cadia falls and X falls etc. and people just go... "............... WELL TERRA IS STILL THERE! THOSE LOSSES ARE IRRELEVANT" no factions gonna win a total victory in 40k's time line guys... ever. or if they do we might as well perpare for "age of sigmar, 40k edition"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Andykp wrote: Before 8th edition everyone wanted the story line moving forward. Now they want it leaving alone. Bringing back any of the primarchs isn’t changing any “lore”. It’s a new storyline in a time we haven’t been to before. It’s adding to the “lore”. And anyway the background changes all the time. In major ways. Just ask necrons fans. Roboute coming back hasn’t changed what happened in the past. He has always been in stasis and even healing about while in stasis. All the loyal primarchs have had a “could come back story” for a while. I for one would be happy to stick with 2nd edition fluff before blacklibrary made everyone take it too seriously.
[i use “lore” in “” as it is a silly term for the background to a huge open plan sandbox that is the 40k universe.]
I think the general consensus people wanted was for bad things to happen to the Imperium and things generally to go to s***. For example, the opening of the Great Rift was a great move, but the issue is that we skipped over the entirety of that part by advancing it to the end of the Indomitus Crusade. Its also not great because of the introduction of Primaris Marines and Guilliman. Suddenly, the Imperium has a singular leader to follow and obey the likes of which haven't been seen since the Great Crusade when the Emperor still walked. They have bigger, tougher, better Space Marines and vehicles, a revised Codex Astartes, a more reactive and proactive ruling body because Guilliman has taken over. Despite the Great Rift, things have never looked more optimistic for the Imperium. The big bag Tyranids have been scattered and stopped in their tracks, the Tau are still a tiny faction, the Eldar are even more fractured and some soft-allied to the Imperium after the Ultramar Campaign. The Orks have seemingly dissappeared because I've heard nothing about them since 8th dropped, as have Necrons.
The only thing 8th did was forcefully establish Chaos as the big bad of the universe in a big way, which is great, but it really feels like the Imperium has a better chance now than it did in any previous edition.
I think the route that most people wanted was to see what happens when the Tyranids start munching huge chucks of the Segementum Solar and the Thirteenth Black Crusade smashes past Cadia, the Tau finally discover FTL, all the Orks unite under Ghazghkull, the Eldar start wiping out systems for breakfast and the Imperium literally doesn't have enough enough Space Marines and Imperial Guard. There was talk of a broken Imperium where the Imperials are on the backfoot, in hiding and on the defensive, or a divided Imperium of those close to Terra being safe and those in the North or East being royally screwed by Xenos on all sides. There was hope with the Great Rift splitting the Galaxy but GW ruined that to save the Blood Angels with the Crusade.
A much better version in my opinion, would be to have the Blood Angel Chapters split in half, with a loyal side led by Dante and a few other special characters, and a rebel half that turned to Chaos in return for saving them from Tyranids. The rebel half control the Northern Imperium, and the surviving loyalists flee to the South and have a proper division. No Guilliman and certainly no Primaris.
excep everything Gulliman's done... isn't eneugh. the IoM has still lost a ton with the fall of Cadia. the problem is Cadia falls and X falls etc. and people just go... "............... WELL TERRA IS STILL THERE! THOSE LOSSES ARE IRRELEVANT" no factions gonna win a total victory in 40k's time line guys... ever. or if they do we might as well perpare for "age of sigmar, 40k edition"
Exactly my point. The series is supposed to be grimdark as can be but any meaningful victory for the antagonists is rendered meaningless. Cadia fell but what has that really done? Abaddon's forces havent steamrolled their way to Terra and they certainly havent gone for any other big targets like Ultramar, Armageddon, etc.
Whenever it looks like something is finally going to break the Imperium, GW pulls an Ex Machina out of their ass to save it. Whether its a complete destruction and restarting of the universe (Age of Sigmar) or a legendary hero to lead a new revolution (Guilliman and his Primaris marines). Progression is good but only if there actually feels like there is conflict. Right now, 40k feels like the Imperium is winning, not losing, and its not good.
I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures! DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+ Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
I'm trying to avoid quote-dissecting your message too much, it's a bad default I have. I'm still a bit quoty here, even after edits, sorry about that.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Captain Genericus is part of that 2% of Chapters which refused Primaris, or maybe his Chapter hasn't been found and reinforced yet, or maybe his company/taskforce is composed of non-Primaris brethren.
But then Chapter Master Genericus is just someone who made a conscious decision to refuse to integrate Primaris Marine into his forces, rather than someone who is part of a universe where stagnation has taken hold, scientific progress has been replaced by scientific regression, and the current gear is just a worst version of older gear, made by following blindly instructions that are mistaken as religious rites and not at all understood.
That's formally similar but thematically very very different.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Because it felt a LOT like a story which had stagnated to the point of being a setting.
40k wasn't a story. There was no progression, there was a description of a galaxy. We were never following the progression of a few individuals. We had the description of a world, with half-remembered legend that people believed about the history that brought them to this state, and with the history of a few famous historical figures of the time being described. That was worldbuilding. ASOIAF is a story. It focuses on specific characters and plots. Like pretty much all sci-fy and fantasy stories, ASOIAF take place in its own specific setting, but it is a story.
The two aspects I am unhappy about are ;
a) I don't like the transition of being a setting to being a story: the new material that is going to get released is going to focus on how the story is evolving and on a few specific characters instead of focusing on adding more depth and flavor and details to the world in general, and
b) I don't like the evolution of the fluff: All new published material will be in some universe where the theme I mentioned earlier, of scientific and intellectual decadence and decay, is gone, as pointed out above.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I'm trying to avoid quote-dissecting your message too much, it's a bad default I have. I'm still a bit quoty here, even after edits, sorry about that.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Captain Genericus is part of that 2% of Chapters which refused Primaris, or maybe his Chapter hasn't been found and reinforced yet, or maybe his company/taskforce is composed of non-Primaris brethren.
But then Chapter Master Genericus is just someone who made a conscious decision to refuse to integrate Primaris Marine into his forces, rather than someone who is part of a universe where stagnation has taken hold, scientific progress has been replaced by scientific regression, and the current gear is just a worst version of older gear, made by following blindly instructions that are mistaken as religious rites and not at all understood.
That's formally similar but thematically very very different.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Because it felt a LOT like a story which had stagnated to the point of being a setting.
40k wasn't a story. There was no progression, there was a description of a galaxy. We were never following the progression of a few individuals. We had the description of a world, with half-remembered legend that people believed about the history that brought them to this state, and with the history of a few famous historical figures of the time being described. That was worldbuilding. ASOIAF is a story. It focuses on specific characters and plots. Like pretty much all sci-fy and fantasy stories, ASOIAF take place in its own specific setting, but it is a story.
The two aspects I am unhappy about are ;
a) I don't like the transition of being a setting to being a story: the new material that is going to get released is going to focus on how the story is evolving and on a few specific characters instead of focusing on adding more depth and flavor and details to the world in general, and
b) I don't like the evolution of the fluff: All new published material will be in some universe where the theme I mentioned earlier, of scientific and intellectual decadence and decay, is gone, as pointed out above.
Of course it was a story, just because the fictional clock didn't move on as much as it has now doesn't mean it wasn't a story. If it stagnated then black library would just stick to publishing HH novels. Its the exact same setting now, just that the rift has opened and the Primarchs are coming back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/07 16:56:46
This is a little bit of a wall of text, but please give it a chance :
On the scale of the Imperium/Primarchs:
Spoiler:
To be honest, I think the greatest flaw 40k has as a setting and a story, is the concept that the Imperium owns all of the Galaxy. Obviously, the idea is that in fact the IoM only claims to own it all, with much of the territory coloured 'Imperium' on the map actually being held by various other factions, however by presenting the Imperium as holding the whole map, there is no space left for a serious rival. Yes, there are accounts of pocket-Empires of Orks, dynasties of Necrons and of course the realm within the Eye of Terror - but none of these remotely match the IoM in terms of scale. This disparity in scale only serves to magnify the sense of irrelevancy 'enemy' factions have in the overall setting and the impermanence their own victories have. There can be losses of whole sectors, ravages of Orks, the utter desolation wreaked by Tyranids - but the map never changes. It's always Imperium territory. Alternatively, if the Imperium were depicted as still vying for territory within the Galaxy, with other Xenos Empires having clearly defined territories on a scale that when combined could definitely rival the IoM, the fortunes and reverses depicted in the lore would have more meaning.
In some ways, this is why I welcome the concept of the 'Dark Imperium', however I feel that it should have been implemented in a much grander, and much more brutal, manner - with literally half the Imperium wiped out, and only small, besieged enclaves (To conveniently preserve of favourite Chapters/Forgeworlds/Regiments ) dotted about in an overwhelming tide of strong hostile nations. Furthermore, in that type of setting, the revival of Primarchs would make sense, because there would be a need for them - no longer does Humanity hold ultimate sway, so if it is to regain control, or merely survive, it will need it's greatest 'heroes'. In that setting, the challenge is of a similar magnitude to the power of a Primarch. However, the 'grimdark' nature can still be preserved, because no longer do the Primarchs have the guiding will of the Emperor to unite their strong individualistic wills or to provide them with the direction and vision in reconquering the IoM. It would be far more uncertain as to whether the Primarchs could even accomplish the feat without Him.
Regarding Primaris:
Spoiler:
As for Primaris, the main problem they have is just their size and tech. Sounds stupid, but as far as I see it (IMHO), GW should simply have said - 'Gene-seed upgrade, true-scaled models, business as usual'. However, in making Primaris bigger than standard SM in the lore, it introduced a raft of problems with players finding their tabletop armies obsolete in terms of the ongoing setting. Now, their favourite characters, armour marks, weapons and vehicles are rendered utterly useless in the 42nd Millenium, because, to be frank, the new guys don't fit. Love Mk III armour and want some guys in the 42nd Millenium? - no can do because your old marines are all dead now, and the new guys can't wear it. Want a newly founded Primaris Chapter riding around in the traditional Land Speeders - nope, because the footwell is too small, and the Primaris booty is just too big for the seats. Even the timeless bolter is now irrelevant - because it's inferior to the new bolt-rifle and the new guys won't use it.
It's not that Primaris are a bad concept, because they open up vast potential for story-telling on how they will interact with older SMs, it'd that their physical attributes combined with their superior genes and tech, have rendered the traditional SM as a thing of the past - forever locked to M41. Eventually, all those traditional SM will die, and if players wish to create forces that are situated in the new setting, then they cannot utilise the older models. Personally, I feel GW should simply have true-scaled the existing marine models. Instead of a release of Intercessors/Hell-Blasters, Reivers et al, we should have just had new Tactical, Devastator, Assaults - the traditional line-up, true-scaled. That way, even on the table-top, people could simply point to older models and say 'Same marines, older models' or newer models as 'Same marines, wearing new armour'. Over time, we could have then had upgrade packs for relic marks of armour, and possibly some new ones - but the new models could represent anySM character, because the size change was not clearly tied to a new, exclusive faction of marines in the lore.
Anyway, that's my two bob - feel free to rip it apart Oh and as an aside - it would be interesting if the Primarchs this time round were implemented as fulfilling the roles the Emp. intended for them. In the GC/HH, the Emps vision had not been realised - what would happen this time in each loyalist Primarch becomes the tools they were intended to be...
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Of course it was a story, just because the fictional clock didn't move on as much as it has now doesn't mean it wasn't a story.
You are confusing “This is a story” and “This is a setting with stories set in it”. Warmachine has a story. You get the main story of Warmachine in the rulebooks and faction books, and in Skull Island, which is the equivalent of Black Library, you get more stories, some of which are directly related to the main story of the settings, some which are stand-alone, unrelated stories in the same settings. Warhammer 40k didn't have a main story for 7 edition. All the lore was just defining the identity of a faction, not a plot advancing. You were never waiting for the next edition to discover what happened to whichever character or what the resolution of whatever conflict was!
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Its the exact same setting now, just that the rift has opened and the Primarchs are coming back.
It's the same except for the part where it's different and now you wait for next edition to discover what happened to Guiliman and his crusade and the alliance with the Ynari and all that jazz, and you get the small world effect where special characters all happen to be in the same place all the time, and it sucks$.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Of course it was a story, just because the fictional clock didn't move on as much as it has now doesn't mean it wasn't a story.
You are confusing “This is a story” and “This is a setting with stories set in it”. Warmachine has a story. You get the main story of Warmachine in the rulebooks and faction books, and in Skull Island, which is the equivalent of Black Library, you get more stories, some of which are directly related to the main story of the settings, some which are stand-alone, unrelated stories in the same settings. Warhammer 40k didn't have a main story for 7 edition. All the lore was just defining the identity of a faction, not a plot advancing. You were never waiting for the next edition to discover what happened to whichever character or what the resolution of whatever conflict was!
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Its the exact same setting now, just that the rift has opened and the Primarchs are coming back.
It's the same except for the part where it's different and now you wait for next edition to discover what happened to Guiliman and his crusade and the alliance with the Ynari and all that jazz, and you get the small world effect where special characters all happen to be in the same place all the time, and it sucks$.
This guy gets it.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Warpig1815 wrote: This is a little bit of a wall of text, but please give it a chance :
On the scale of the Imperium/Primarchs:
Spoiler:
To be honest, I think the greatest flaw 40k has as a setting and a story, is the concept that the Imperium owns all of the Galaxy. Obviously, the idea is that in fact the IoM only claims to own it all, with much of the territory coloured 'Imperium' on the map actually being held by various other factions, however by presenting the Imperium as holding the whole map, there is no space left for a serious rival. Yes, there are accounts of pocket-Empires of Orks, dynasties of Necrons and of course the realm within the Eye of Terror - but none of these remotely match the IoM in terms of scale. This disparity in scale only serves to magnify the sense of irrelevancy 'enemy' factions have in the overall setting and the impermanence their own victories have. There can be losses of whole sectors, ravages of Orks, the utter desolation wreaked by Tyranids - but the map never changes. It's always Imperium territory. Alternatively, if the Imperium were depicted as still vying for territory within the Galaxy, with other Xenos Empires having clearly defined territories on a scale that when combined could definitely rival the IoM, the fortunes and reverses depicted in the lore would have more meaning.
In some ways, this is why I welcome the concept of the 'Dark Imperium', however I feel that it should have been implemented in a much grander, and much more brutal, manner - with literally half the Imperium wiped out, and only small, besieged enclaves (To conveniently preserve of favourite Chapters/Forgeworlds/Regiments ) dotted about in an overwhelming tide of strong hostile nations. Furthermore, in that type of setting, the revival of Primarchs would make sense, because there would be a need for them - no longer does Humanity hold ultimate sway, so if it is to regain control, or merely survive, it will need it's greatest 'heroes'. In that setting, the challenge is of a similar magnitude to the power of a Primarch. However, the 'grimdark' nature can still be preserved, because no longer do the Primarchs have the guiding will of the Emperor to unite their strong individualistic wills or to provide them with the direction and vision in reconquering the IoM. It would be far more uncertain as to whether the Primarchs could even accomplish the feat without Him.
Regarding Primaris:
Spoiler:
As for Primaris, the main problem they have is just their size and tech. Sounds stupid, but as far as I see it (IMHO), GW should simply have said - 'Gene-seed upgrade, true-scaled models, business as usual'. However, in making Primaris bigger than standard SM in the lore, it introduced a raft of problems with players finding their tabletop armies obsolete in terms of the ongoing setting. Now, their favourite characters, armour marks, weapons and vehicles are rendered utterly useless in the 42nd Millenium, because, to be frank, the new guys don't fit. Love Mk III armour and want some guys in the 42nd Millenium? - no can do because your old marines are all dead now, and the new guys can't wear it. Want a newly founded Primaris Chapter riding around in the traditional Land Speeders - nope, because the footwell is too small, and the Primaris booty is just too big for the seats. Even the timeless bolter is now irrelevant - because it's inferior to the new bolt-rifle and the new guys won't use it.
It's not that Primaris are a bad concept, because they open up vast potential for story-telling on how they will interact with older SMs, it'd that their physical attributes combined with their superior genes and tech, have rendered the traditional SM as a thing of the past - forever locked to M41. Eventually, all those traditional SM will die, and if players wish to create forces that are situated in the new setting, then they cannot utilise the older models. Personally, I feel GW should simply have true-scaled the existing marine models. Instead of a release of Intercessors/Hell-Blasters, Reivers et al, we should have just had new Tactical, Devastator, Assaults - the traditional line-up, true-scaled. That way, even on the table-top, people could simply point to older models and say 'Same marines, older models' or newer models as 'Same marines, wearing new armour'. Over time, we could have then had upgrade packs for relic marks of armour, and possibly some new ones - but the new models could represent anySM character, because the size change was not clearly tied to a new, exclusive faction of marines in the lore.
Anyway, that's my two bob - feel free to rip it apart Oh and as an aside - it would be interesting if the Primarchs this time round were implemented as fulfilling the roles the Emp. intended for them. In the GC/HH, the Emps vision had not been realised - what would happen this time in each loyalist Primarch becomes the tools they were intended to be...
The Imperium does not own the galaxy, the orks do and pretty much always have. also the Primarchs always acted as the Emperor intended.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/07 18:51:15
It would be more apt to say the Orks occupy more of the galaxy and the humans control the largest empire in the galaxy, were the Orks to unite it would be them that had the larrgest empire.
Formosa wrote: It would be more apt to say the Orks occupy more of the galaxy and the humans control the largest empire in the galaxy, were the Orks to unite it would be them that had the larrgest empire.
Not really, the Imperium can't get rid of them, even when they win a battle or war against them they come back like cockroaches, just because they haven't had a mega-WAAAGH! for ages and just because they aren't united doesn't make them any less of a threat. They don't have a society and culture like the Imperium, not real infrastructural or space travel etc. but you have to take into the account that the Orks don't want to be like the Imperium, they lived to fight among all other things, we can't really judge them by human standards.
40k is suffering from its own size and from its most media sexy characters being too…too big, with the things they do having to be big and loud and "OMG! Can our heroes stop the Badguy before his mad schemes unfold!" People know these characters and so want to see them do things, but they are just, too big, too mass marketable, for their own good, to not affect the setting, which suffers because entropy and cyclicality of existense are some of its themes.
The slow decay of the Imperium can't really be depicted without a big investment on, say, a long sprawling Romance-of-the-Three-Kingdomsy epic about how Imperium slowly through multiple generations looses control on some area of space, giving readers chance to see the same locales across a long period of time. Like, at the beginning characters marvel the capitals shiny new basilicas, and at the end an alien garrison uses it as a dingy warehouse. And at the very end, when people have been invested in places and characters for years, it's all noted by an far away imperial clerk to be nothing but a few decimal dip in a sectors annual tax report. Or something, I dunno.
But why do such things when it's easier to make more easily marketable sensationalistic media like "Russ Returns" or "Clash of Angels". Those fit better on modern age, where media is produced and consumed at an ever increasing rate, with people binging entire season off of Netflix in one go. Which has, by the by, has already been noted to have affected quality of serialized media in a negative way, since feedback can no longer be take in to account midseason. And so the setting and its themes suffer. Pity.
And the "Empire of a Million Worlds" is nothing in a galaxy of 400 Billion stars. It may be able to be touted as the largest single empire through a vaguely similar shared faith, and some barely remembered sense of obligation to humanitys homeworld, but thats about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/07 19:21:18
Delvarus Centurion wrote:The Imperium does not own the galaxy, the orks do and pretty much always have. also the Primarchs always acted as the Emperor intended.
Which is exactly why I said, the Imperium 'claims' to own the Galaxy. The problem I'm trying to highlight, is that on a map, in the lore, in the stories, the Imperium is presented as owning everything, with these other factions being things that pop up and are dealt with, then the status quo returns, with the Imperium reigning supreme. The lack of a separate, sovereign state in a position to rival the Imperium on it's own scale is, in my own estimation, the factor that prevents the setting from truly capitalising on the potential of the other factions to have more relevance within the setting. In anycase, Orks no more 'own' the Galaxy, than bacteria 'own' the Earth. Numbers are not proof of a common unity or desire. For example, Great Britain doesn't own America, Australia or Canada - despite the majority of the population being of British descent.
As for Primarchs acting as the Emperor intended - that isn't entirely true. Each were created with a specific task in mind, aside from simply being generals. For example, Magnus was perhaps intended to be the warden of the Imperial Webway - a role he never fulfilled, and there are hints throughout the books that the other Primarch had similar defined tasks, hence their different traits and aptitudes. This is mimicked by their Legions. If it wasn't the case, then why would three Legions have been hidden away during their creations. Of course, for us, it's GW adding a touch of mystique, but in the spirit of the engaging with the setting, there must be an in-universe point. If the Emperor wanted bland, uniform generals, he would have made bland, uniform generals. But he gave each one a distinct personality or a distinct set of traits.
Formosa wrote: It would be more apt to say the Orks occupy more of the galaxy and the humans control the largest empire in the galaxy, were the Orks to unite it would be them that had the larrgest empire.
Not really, the Imperium can't get rid of them, even when they win a battle or war against them they come back like cockroaches, just because they haven't had a mega-WAAAGH! for ages and just because they aren't united doesn't make them any less of a threat. They don't have a society and culture like the Imperium, not real infrastructural or space travel etc. but you have to take into the account that the Orks don't want to be like the Imperium, they lived to fight among all other things, we can't really judge them by human standards.
Yep really, newer fluff shows what happens when you unite orks, they end up out teching the imperium by a large margin, new oddboyz turn up and as a race they become a lot more organised, build cities and actually have a culture (not Kulture) of their own, a united ork race stops being what we recognise as orky and starts to resemble a normal species in terms of empire building.
its looking like Ghazghul is heading in that direction, a new "beast" that if able to continue to its logical conclusion then the Orks will be the biggest threat to everyone, even the nids.
@Formosa - And if that becomes a reality, paired with some proper Chaos realms coming into existence outside of Warp Rifts (Such as Huron Blackheart establishing himself outside of the Maelstrom), Tau expansion and possibly the re-establishment of Eldar Maiden Worlds, then the lore would become somewhat more balanced. The trouble with 40k's focus on the Imperium, is that the Imperium lacks a counter-foil of sufficient magnitude.
Warpig1815 wrote: @Formosa - And if that becomes a reality, paired with some proper Chaos realms coming into existence outside of Warp Rifts (Such as Huron Blackheart establishing himself outside of the Maelstrom), Tau expansion and possibly the re-establishment of Eldar Maiden Worlds, then the lore would become somewhat more balanced. The trouble with 40k's focus on the Imperium, is that the Imperium lacks a counter-foil of sufficient magnitude.
Oh I couldn’t agree more, I actually get the feeling that the beast series was a set up for ghazghul to do something just like this, so it no longer just focuses on the imperium but now we have the main nid fleet coming in, the Orks uniting, eldar getting its gak together, chaos ripping the galaxy apart, tau doing tau stuff and the imperium stuck in the middle just preying for a miracle... the biggest wild card to me at least is the necrons
I don't care much for returning primarchs from the dead, but I do like seeing the daemon primarchs making a comeback. With the exception of Angron, all they've done is mope for 10 000 years.
I think it's time we saw Angron make another strike for Armageddon, that would be cool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/07 22:22:48
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I'm trying to avoid quote-dissecting your message too much, it's a bad default I have. I'm still a bit quoty here, even after edits, sorry about that.
No worries, what you're putting makes sense to me!
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Captain Genericus is part of that 2% of Chapters which refused Primaris, or maybe his Chapter hasn't been found and reinforced yet, or maybe his company/taskforce is composed of non-Primaris brethren.
But then Chapter Master Genericus is just someone who made a conscious decision to refuse to integrate Primaris Marine into his forces, rather than someone who is part of a universe where stagnation has taken hold, scientific progress has been replaced by scientific regression, and the current gear is just a worst version of older gear, made by following blindly instructions that are mistaken as religious rites and not at all understood.
That's formally similar but thematically very very different.
But it still allows someone to have a faction that still exists in a situation where to them, the "old ways" are the only way. He may still hold to the old beliefs and refuse to change - being one of the 2% who do.
Alternatively, there is also the option for Captain Genericus to be Captain Genericus in M36, or in M41 just before Cadia fell.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Because it felt a LOT like a story which had stagnated to the point of being a setting.
40k wasn't a story. There was no progression, there was a description of a galaxy.
Not quite true. It was a setting, with stories in it. However, those stories had slowed, stagnated, and remained in almost a state of suspended animation for IRL years to the point where they were almost indistinguishable from the setting.
The 13th Black Crusade and Armageddon are examples of this.
We were never following the progression of a few individuals.
Pedro Kantor's story as he rebuilt his Crimson Fists. Lysander and his story (from Malodrax to refusing to lead the Fists after Pugh was killed), Ghazghkull Thraka and Yarrick's growth together, the tale of Tycho.
We had the description of a world, with half-remembered legend that people believed about the history that brought them to this state, and with the history of a few famous historical figures of the time being described. That was worldbuilding. ASOIAF is a story. It focuses on specific characters and plots. Like pretty much all sci-fy and fantasy stories, ASOIAF take place in its own specific setting, but it is a story.
40k has excellent worldbuilding, but has stories within the setting built. It has plots, plot arcs, and players within those arcs. Armageddon, Damocles Gulf Crusade, the Black Crusades, the Badab War, etc etc - stories and arcs within the wider setting. It's not that different to ASOIAF in my eyes.
The two aspects I am unhappy about are ;
a) I don't like the transition of being a setting to being a story: the new material that is going to get released is going to focus on how the story is evolving and on a few specific characters instead of focusing on adding more depth and flavor and details to the world in general, and
Personally, to me, the setting had always had stories in it. 40k was a set of stories within a wider setting. That setting is still there.
b) I don't like the evolution of the fluff: All new published material will be in some universe where the theme I mentioned earlier, of scientific and intellectual decadence and decay, is gone, as pointed out above.
I wouldn't say it's gone. It's like 21st Century being set back to the Stone Age, and then a Renaissance coming along, then going BACK to the Stone Age, and reaching the Bronze Age. Despite reaching the Bronze Age, it's still a far cry away from the 21st Century.
Warpig1815 wrote: @Formosa - And if that becomes a reality, paired with some proper Chaos realms coming into existence outside of Warp Rifts (Such as Huron Blackheart establishing himself outside of the Maelstrom), Tau expansion and possibly the re-establishment of Eldar Maiden Worlds, then the lore would become somewhat more balanced. The trouble with 40k's focus on the Imperium, is that the Imperium lacks a counter-foil of sufficient magnitude.
Tau ca't expand, they can't travel faster than light, It would take us 4 years to get to the nearest star travelling at the speed of light. Even just going from system to system, it would take 100,000 years to get from one end to the other side of the galaxy traveling at the speed of light. Until they master warp travel they are no threat whatsoever.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/07 23:23:55
Warpig1815 wrote: @Formosa - And if that becomes a reality, paired with some proper Chaos realms coming into existence outside of Warp Rifts (Such as Huron Blackheart establishing himself outside of the Maelstrom), Tau expansion and possibly the re-establishment of Eldar Maiden Worlds, then the lore would become somewhat more balanced. The trouble with 40k's focus on the Imperium, is that the Imperium lacks a counter-foil of sufficient magnitude.
Tau ca't expand, they can't travel faster than light, It would take us 4 years to get to the nearest star travelling at the speed of light. Even just going from system to system, it would take 100,000 years to get from one end to the other side of the galaxy traveling at the speed of light. Until they master warp travel they are no threat whatsoever.
The Fourth Sphere of Expansion created a wormhole through the Warp "in the heart of Imperial space (pg22-23 of the Tau Codex)" which the Tau have begun to exploit. Considering that they managed that, I think it's completely possible that they've not master warp travel, but are harnessing it to a better degree than ever before.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/08 00:26:33
One problem is that GW simply put to much at the end of the calendar. It's roughly 10,000 years between the siege of Terra and the fall of Cadia, yet I feel like more and more was shoved into M41 to the point of it almost being comical. It's like every other day it's dooms day.
HoundsofDemos wrote: One problem is that GW simply put to much at the end of the calendar. It's roughly 10,000 years between the siege of Terra and the fall of Cadia, yet I feel like more and more was shoved into M41 to the point of it almost being comical. It's like every other day it's dooms day.
I tend to belive that a LOT happened over the past 10,000 years just GW's not fleshed it out, that said I'd LOOOVE to see a "historical" series. that covered past conflcits etc
the problem is so many of the adversaries didn't come around till m 41. prior to M41 you had Imperium, Orks, eldar, and chaos. the Tau, Tyranids and Necrons are all "not avaliable"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/08 01:00:39
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
HoundsofDemos wrote: One problem is that GW simply put to much at the end of the calendar. It's roughly 10,000 years between the siege of Terra and the fall of Cadia, yet I feel like more and more was shoved into M41 to the point of it almost being comical. It's like every other day it's dooms day.
I tend to belive that a LOT happened over the past 10,000 years just GW's not fleshed it out, that said I'd LOOOVE to see a "historical" series. that covered past conflcits etc
the problem is so many of the adversaries didn't come around till m 41. prior to M41 you had Imperium, Orks, eldar, and chaos. the Tau, Tyranids and Necrons are all "not avaliable"
Aha! And there comes another problem, the minis. The galaxy of, like, 400 billion stars sure has a lot of wiggleroom for more factions, but making minis for them is harder, and a big investment. And making media for something that has none of "'em toys" to sell is hardly money well spent in the eyes of bigwigs. So on with just the existing faction we go, with only passing mentions for all those interesting events too costly to invest further in. For example The Beast Rising had to, according to rumours, cut the Men of Iron that were supposed to feature because of their lack of miniatures to sell, and the ending was turned into Imperium defusing the whole situation with a Deus Ex Machina. Pity.
The codex was constantly updated as well as new foes were faced and new tactics emerged. The entire point was to be an organizational guide and the collected wisdom of Guilliman and later Imperial military thinkers.
It’s space Sun Tzu.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
I'd like them to stop the lore changes, but then again it doesn't really matter any more; the settings is already ruined. The only way they could even somewhat salvage it is to have Inquisitor Karamazov to put a bullet in Guilliman's shiny oversized noggin ASAP.
HoundsofDemos wrote: One problem is that GW simply put to much at the end of the calendar. It's roughly 10,000 years between the siege of Terra and the fall of Cadia, yet I feel like more and more was shoved into M41 to the point of it almost being comical. It's like every other day it's dooms day.
I tend to belive that a LOT happened over the past 10,000 years just GW's not fleshed it out, that said I'd LOOOVE to see a "historical" series. that covered past conflcits etc
the problem is so many of the adversaries didn't come around till m 41. prior to M41 you had Imperium, Orks, eldar, and chaos. the Tau, Tyranids and Necrons are all "not avaliable"
Aha! And there comes another problem, the minis. The galaxy of, like, 400 billion stars sure has a lot of wiggleroom for more factions, but making minis for them is harder, and a big investment. And making media for something that has none of "'em toys" to sell is hardly money well spent in the eyes of bigwigs. So on with just the existing faction we go, with only passing mentions for all those interesting events too costly to invest further in. For example The Beast Rising had to, according to rumours, cut the Men of Iron that were supposed to feature because of their lack of miniatures to sell, and the ending was turned into Imperium defusing the whole situation with a Deus Ex Machina. Pity.
I agree to a certain extent, however the introduction of new factions isn't really dependant upon a supporting miniatures range. Indeed, I'd kind of suggest that a successful miniatures range (At least within the 40k arena) can only come about if people are willing to invest in the lore presented first. If a concerted effort was made to create a new faction which was well-balanced with flaws and advantages, an interesting aesthetic or a unique culture, then I can't see why people wouldn't get on board. I think most SM players wouldn't kick up a fuss if a new faction got a little time in the limelight - SM already have a pretty much comprehensive range of minis for them to be going on with. The main problem is that GW's financial departments have equated a lack of enthusiasm to buy models from other ranges (Which, in the case of Eldar, CSM and Orks are slightly to severely outdated) to a general lack of enthusiasm in the faction. For example, I'd love to start off a Napoleonic Themed IG Force - but am I going to buy a bunch of 3rd Party bits, which are relatively more expensive by dint of being specialised, to customise the dumpy, aged sculpts of the Cadian range - am I what! It would ruin the effect altogether. However, if we got a new range of IG Guardsmen, with better proportions, possibly some female representation and a greater degree of customisation - then I'd jump at the chance.
HoundsofDemos wrote: One problem is that GW simply put to much at the end of the calendar. It's roughly 10,000 years between the siege of Terra and the fall of Cadia, yet I feel like more and more was shoved into M41 to the point of it almost being comical. It's like every other day it's dooms day.
I tend to belive that a LOT happened over the past 10,000 years just GW's not fleshed it out, that said I'd LOOOVE to see a "historical" series. that covered past conflcits etc
the problem is so many of the adversaries didn't come around till m 41. prior to M41 you had Imperium, Orks, eldar, and chaos. the Tau, Tyranids and Necrons are all "not avaliable"
Aha! And there comes another problem, the minis. The galaxy of, like, 400 billion stars sure has a lot of wiggleroom for more factions, but making minis for them is harder, and a big investment. And making media for something that has none of "'em toys" to sell is hardly money well spent in the eyes of bigwigs. So on with just the existing faction we go, with only passing mentions for all those interesting events too costly to invest further in. For example The Beast Rising had to, according to rumours, cut the Men of Iron that were supposed to feature because of their lack of miniatures to sell, and the ending was turned into Imperium defusing the whole situation with a Deus Ex Machina. Pity.
I agree to a certain extent, however the introduction of new factions isn't really dependant upon a supporting miniatures range. Indeed, I'd kind of suggest that a successful miniatures range (At least within the 40k arena) can only come about if people are willing to invest in the lore presented first. If a concerted effort was made to create a new faction which was well-balanced with flaws and advantages, an interesting aesthetic or a unique culture, then I can't see why people wouldn't get on board. I think most SM players wouldn't kick up a fuss if a new faction got a little time in the limelight - SM already have a pretty much comprehensive range of minis for them to be going on with. The main problem is that GW's financial departments have equated a lack of enthusiasm to buy models from other ranges (Which, in the case of Eldar, CSM and Orks are slightly to severely outdated) to a general lack of enthusiasm in the faction. For example, I'd love to start off a Napoleonic Themed IG Force - but am I going to buy a bunch of 3rd Party bits, which are relatively more expensive by dint of being specialised, to customise the dumpy, aged sculpts of the Cadian range - am I what! It would ruin the effect altogether. However, if we got a new range of IG Guardsmen, with better proportions, possibly some female representation and a greater degree of customisation - then I'd jump at the chance.
Indeed, whole things a chicken and egg situation, where, to get GW models we'd need the lore to invest in, but in order to get that lore from GW we would need models to buy.
GeeDub's been very hesitant to release anything truly new, choosing to dust off old pieces of lore and only to add into existing faction. I mean, last big new intependent faction was Tau.
I've been for a long time of firm belief that the best faction GW could release would be Mercenaries, giving us a faction that everybody, regardless of their minis, could buy, since in the current state any new release is going to interest only a portion of the player base. With Mercs they could also test the water on new stuff more safely, ideas that could later be expanded on.
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