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 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
So much rubbish in this thread.

Almost the entirety of fluff for Incubi covers them being highly skilled, vicious killers. Basically Striking Scorpions that have gone off the deep end. There is virtually no fluff to determine whether it's a gender specific role or not but given the nature of the Incubi Shrines I doubt it.

What there is is a short story from Gav Thorpe tying in with his Path of the Eldar books describing how the Incubus-come-Striking Scorpion character got there and it involves a fight between a Female Klaivex and a challenger for her position.

Also, since 5th ed the fluff for Wyches has had them mostly female because that gender can achieve a higher degree of agility than males but it's not universal and some males can keep up with them. However, theyre still not a match for the best female Wyches and tend to be kept around as much for "breeding stock" as anything else.


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 Galas wrote:
Yeah I wouldn't take the fact that they use male pronous as gospel.

If they where only male they would have say that, because when some unit is only male/female, GW makes it clear, because is part of his character.

The fact that old Sucubi had female models (And Sucubi where one of the models that changed little in the remake of the range) also support the interpretation that theres female Incubi.

And male Succubus. Because as others have said, the names are not really the Eldar names, just like all the Tyranid names are the Imperial terms they have to describe those lifeforms.

If you want to be specifc, the term Succubus wasn't actually used until 5th ed, in 3rd you had Dark Eldar Lord (Archon and Dracon) and Dark Eldar Wych Lord (Wych Archite, Wych Dracite).

Then you didnt read much of the fluff, ALL incubi lore always talks about "Him, his, he" and never once says "them, their her, she" etc...

Edit: Remember DE 3rd and 5th are 2 different from each other, if GW Recon some of the lore then its changed, if you want female models so be it, but dont go saying its part of the fluff b.c it isnt.

And as has already been said, at no point does the lore specifically state that all Incubi are male. It's the same way that Howlign Banshees are refered to as "she", but we know their are some male Howling Banshees.

The change between 3rd and 5th doesn't matter, we had boobs on 3rd ed models and stories with female Incubi in 5th, so maybe you should be the one paying mroe attention.


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 simonr1978 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

If you want to be specifc, the term Succubus wasn't actually used until 5th ed, in 3rd you had Dark Eldar Lord (Archon and Dracon) and Dark Eldar Wych Lord (Wych Archite, Wych Dracite).

I'm pretty sure the Succubus was the leader of Wych squads in the 3rd edition codex.

I just double checked, I'd forgotten about that.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah I wouldn't take the fact that they use male pronous as gospel.

If they where only male they would have say that, because when some unit is only male/female, GW makes it clear, because is part of his character.

The fact that old Sucubi had female models (And Sucubi where one of the models that changed little in the remake of the range) also support the interpretation that theres female Incubi.

And male Succubus. Because as others have said, the names are not really the Eldar names, just like all the Tyranid names are the Imperial terms they have to describe those lifeforms.

but if thats tbhe case would the IoM develop names specificly with male and female connotations if they where mixed gender? (just to play devil's advocate)

How is this garbage still going after it was answered on the first page? Incubus is the male version of succubus. Succubus is the female version of incubus. Glad we got that cleared up. Until next time, when somebody asks “but why aren’t there any female feculent gnarlmaws?!”

GW using male pronouns doesn't imply anything. Take a look at the 8th edition Astra Militarum codex. It uses male pronouns exclusively, yet there is artwork of female guardsmen in there (and then the Astra Militarum section in the Kill Team rulebook explicitly refers to them as "men and women"). GW is just very inconsistent with pronoun use. You can't read anything into it.

And as has already been said, at no point does the lore specifically state that all Incubi are male. It's the same way that Howlign Banshees are refered to as "she", but we know their are some male Howling Banshees.

how do male eldar or male eldar aspect warriors react to those male howling banshees?

 timetowaste85 wrote:
How is this garbage still going after it was answered on the first page? Incubus is the male version of succubus. Succubus is the female version of incubus. Glad we got that cleared up. Until next time, when somebody asks “but why aren’t there any female feculent gnarlmaws?!”

Or you could try and understand that we're not talking about demons and instead units within the Drukhari.


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Karol wrote:

And as has already been said, at no point does the lore specifically state that all Incubi are male. It's the same way that Howlign Banshees are refered to as "she", but we know their are some male Howling Banshees.

how do male eldar or male eldar aspect warriors react to those male howling banshees?

With the same respect as you give anyone capable of disembowling you in an instant.

Given that them being mono-gendered isn't actually at all important to their identity within the universe and faction, I would assume that Incubi can be male and female.

The idea that "in myths incubi are male!" simply doesn't hold up. Rhinos are mammals, not tanks. Crones aren't old ugly women. A Rhino Primaris isn't a mammal that's been given over to Cawl, nor is it even a tank that Primaris Marines can ride in.
It's a concept name, and nothing from that concept seems to have defined it's gender roles.

As mentioned earlier, male pronouns are used often in factions which we KNOW are multi-gender (Astra Militarum), so I wouldn't lean too strongly on this.

Frankly, the only three factions (or groups of factions) which I can 100% say are mono-gendered are Sisters of Battle, Space Marines (all types) and Sisters of Silence. Even Custodes I personally feel *could* have female aspirants, but that might just be my personal headcanon.

 Imateria wrote:


With the same respect as you give anyone capable of disembowling you in an instant.

yeah, but the aspect houses don't like each other. Some even dislike each other a lot. Is there some interaction between male banshees and other aspect warriors in the gav thorpe books?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Given that them being mono-gendered isn't actually at all important to their identity within the universe and faction, I would assume that Incubi can be male and female.

The idea that "in myths incubi are male!" simply doesn't hold up. Rhinos are mammals, not tanks. Crones aren't old ugly women. A Rhino Primaris isn't a mammal that's been given over to Cawl, nor is it even a tank that Primaris Marines can ride in.
It's a concept name, and nothing from that concept seems to have defined it's gender roles.

As mentioned earlier, male pronouns are used often in factions which we KNOW are multi-gender (Astra Militarum), so I wouldn't lean too strongly on this.

Frankly, the only three factions (or groups of factions) which I can 100% say are mono-gendered are Sisters of Battle, Space Marines (all types) and Sisters of Silence. Even Custodes I personally feel *could* have female aspirants, but that might just be my personal headcanon.

This might blow your mind, but maybe the Dark Eldar don't get women to do that job, or do care about keeping the title gender accurate.

 SHUPPET wrote:
This might blow your mind, but maybe the Dark Eldar don't get women to do that job

Dark Eldars don't get anyone to do that job, really. Noone except the future Incubi wants them to become an incubi. And really, other Dark Eldars would rather the aspirant got tortured in very very cruel and painful way. They are usually saddened about the whole "aspirant not dying" thingy. But pretty happy about the whole "previous incubi being killed" thingy.

 SHUPPET wrote:
or do care about keeping the title gender accurate.

Well, I'm sure Dark Eldars are very keen on respecting christian mythology, they seem like the type...

Alternatively, the role is showcased as male. There could be female Incubi, but perhaps so few that the armour is always made male. Despite Aeldari armour typically being obviously male or female (boob armour), the frame of an Aeldari body can be fairly ambiguous.
A female can easily wear a male's armour and vice-versa.
I believe I read fluff once that Howling Banshees do have males, but as the ROLE of Banshees is of a female wailing spirit, even males where the boob armour.

Also remember that many of the Aeldari rituals and cultural traditions are deeply rooted in their ancient mythic past. Even their language uses metaphors from myths of long ago.
So it would hardly be unusual for a female Incubus to wear male armour or for a male Banshee to have boob armour.
Because those roles are traditionally that in the Aeldari myths.

Succubi, however, I think are indeed actually all female. But I think this has more to do with male Wyches typically being lower ranked and/or often becoming Beast Masters or Reavers. It would be extremely unusual for a male Wych to gain enough favor and power to become a leader of other Wyches.
It'd basically be suicide for the male Wych as other Wyches would be aiming to stab him in the back and "put him in his place"
Female Aeldari, it seems, are more acrobatic, which is another reason why Wyches and Banshees are predominantly female.

-

Karol wrote:

 Imateria wrote:


With the same respect as you give anyone capable of disembowling you in an instant.

yeah, but the aspect houses don't like each other. Some even dislike each other a lot. Is there some interaction between male banshees and other aspect warriors in the gav thorpe books?

No, the only aspects with any character interactions in the books are Striking Scorpions (the main character of the first book) and Dark Reapers (a couple of his friends are in a DR Shrine), all other Aspects are mentioned as taking part in battles but there's no real interactions with any of them.

I would imagine any conflict between Aspect Shrines is on a purely indavidual level and nothing to do with the Aspects as a whole. Given how different the Craftworlds are from each other to begin with and how this can affect the Shrines it makes no sense whole Aspects to be against each other, especially when each indavidual shrine tends to be rather solitary to begin with.

Considering the kind of surgeries and stuff Drukhari are willing to go through, like getting wings and whatnot, I suspect specific sex may be elective as well.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Considering the kind of surgeries and stuff Drukhari are willing to go through, like getting wings and whatnot, I suspect specific sex may be elective as well.

LOL, never thought of this,.. yeah most likely, given they live insanely long lives as well (as the 40k universe goes) they could flip back and forth

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Given that them being mono-gendered isn't actually at all important to their identity within the universe and faction, I would assume that Incubi can be male and female.

The idea that "in myths incubi are male!" simply doesn't hold up. Rhinos are mammals, not tanks. Crones aren't old ugly women. A Rhino Primaris isn't a mammal that's been given over to Cawl, nor is it even a tank that Primaris Marines can ride in.
It's a concept name, and nothing from that concept seems to have defined it's gender roles.

As mentioned earlier, male pronouns are used often in factions which we KNOW are multi-gender (Astra Militarum), so I wouldn't lean too strongly on this.

Frankly, the only three factions (or groups of factions) which I can 100% say are mono-gendered are Sisters of Battle, Space Marines (all types) and Sisters of Silence. Even Custodes I personally feel *could* have female aspirants, but that might just be my personal headcanon.

This might blow your mind, but maybe the Dark Eldar don't get women to do that job, or do care about keeping the title gender accurate.

This might blow your mind, but they really don't. Drukhari join the Incubi because all they ever want to do is rend others limb from limb, and all that matters when joining is that you can survive the training and trials. As for the title, do you remotely believe that "Incubi", a male sex demon from Christian demonology (and specifically not Daemonology) is what they are called in their own language?

 Imateria wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Given that them being mono-gendered isn't actually at all important to their identity within the universe and faction, I would assume that Incubi can be male and female.

The idea that "in myths incubi are male!" simply doesn't hold up. Rhinos are mammals, not tanks. Crones aren't old ugly women. A Rhino Primaris isn't a mammal that's been given over to Cawl, nor is it even a tank that Primaris Marines can ride in.
It's a concept name, and nothing from that concept seems to have defined it's gender roles.

As mentioned earlier, male pronouns are used often in factions which we KNOW are multi-gender (Astra Militarum), so I wouldn't lean too strongly on this.

Frankly, the only three factions (or groups of factions) which I can 100% say are mono-gendered are Sisters of Battle, Space Marines (all types) and Sisters of Silence. Even Custodes I personally feel *could* have female aspirants, but that might just be my personal headcanon.

This might blow your mind, but maybe the Dark Eldar don't get women to do that job, or do care about keeping the title gender accurate.

This might blow your mind, but they really don't. Dark Eldar join the Incubi because all they ever want to do is rend others limb from limb, and all that matters when joining is that you can survive the training and trials. As for the title, do you remotely believe that "Incubi", a male sex demon from Christian demonology (and specifically not Daemonology) is what they are called in their own language?

Their real name is probably long and dramatic....

 Imateria wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Given that them being mono-gendered isn't actually at all important to their identity within the universe and faction, I would assume that Incubi can be male and female.

The idea that "in myths incubi are male!" simply doesn't hold up. Rhinos are mammals, not tanks. Crones aren't old ugly women. A Rhino Primaris isn't a mammal that's been given over to Cawl, nor is it even a tank that Primaris Marines can ride in.
It's a concept name, and nothing from that concept seems to have defined it's gender roles.

As mentioned earlier, male pronouns are used often in factions which we KNOW are multi-gender (Astra Militarum), so I wouldn't lean too strongly on this.

Frankly, the only three factions (or groups of factions) which I can 100% say are mono-gendered are Sisters of Battle, Space Marines (all types) and Sisters of Silence. Even Custodes I personally feel *could* have female aspirants, but that might just be my personal headcanon.

This might blow your mind, but maybe the Dark Eldar don't get women to do that job, or do care about keeping the title gender accurate.

This might blow your mind, but they really don't. Drukhari join the Incubi because all they ever want to do is rend others limb from limb, and all that matters when joining is that you can survive the training and trials. As for the title, do you remotely believe that "Incubi", a male sex demon from Christian demonology (and specifically not Daemonology) is what they are called in their own language?

Isn't this entire thread because they DO though? If they don't, then what are you complaining about?

Do you have any quotes where they do reference what we call Incubi as "Incubi"?

I'm not familiar with any audio recordings of the Eldar language. It's possible there are some forms of written, but showing that the pronunciation of the written form actually sounds out 'Incubi' would be weird.

Do Germans call themselves German? Not even close. Tyranid Crones call themselves Crones, specifically as a reference to the English language? I highly doubt it.

Did ancient proto-Japanese raiding parties call their individual members 'raiders'? I would be incredibly surprised.

What makes you think DE call the murder aspect 'Incubi'? Even if the sounds matched somehow, why would it mean the same thing? And assuming that it meant the same thing, why would they be so attached to Christian folklore as to tell some girl who just murdered a former Incubi "Nope, back to the arena with you, you're not allowed to become a murderer?" I just don't see that being true.

Look at witch/warlock. Witch is a term used to describe a psyker. It's used to describe Warlocks or Farseers - male or female - regularly. In human folklore, Witch is purely female, but there are many instances of male Eldar psykers being called witches. Warlock is a term used to describe a type of Eldar witch who takes part in combat. Specifically, it's the type of Eldar on the Path of the Seer (and not lost on it) who's previously walked a Path of Khaine. There have been female Eldar warlocks, clearly.

Do you belive the Eldar call their psykers 'witches', and some of their seers 'warlocks', in the literal sense? As in, that's the actual sound they emit when it is rendered audiably? Even if so, why would Incubi be so bound by a much more obscure folklore but not their Craftworlder counterparts?

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Given that them being mono-gendered isn't actually at all important to their identity within the universe and faction, I would assume that Incubi can be male and female.

The idea that "in myths incubi are male!" simply doesn't hold up. Rhinos are mammals, not tanks. Crones aren't old ugly women. A Rhino Primaris isn't a mammal that's been given over to Cawl, nor is it even a tank that Primaris Marines can ride in.
It's a concept name, and nothing from that concept seems to have defined it's gender roles.

As mentioned earlier, male pronouns are used often in factions which we KNOW are multi-gender (Astra Militarum), so I wouldn't lean too strongly on this.

Frankly, the only three factions (or groups of factions) which I can 100% say are mono-gendered are Sisters of Battle, Space Marines (all types) and Sisters of Silence. Even Custodes I personally feel *could* have female aspirants, but that might just be my personal headcanon.

This might blow your mind, but maybe the Dark Eldar don't get women to do that job, or do care about keeping the title gender accurate.

This might blow your mind, but they really don't. Drukhari join the Incubi because all they ever want to do is rend others limb from limb, and all that matters when joining is that you can survive the training and trials. As for the title, do you remotely believe that "Incubi", a male sex demon from Christian demonology (and specifically not Daemonology) is what they are called in their own language?

Isn't this entire thread because they DO though? If they don't, then what are you complaining about?

This entire thread is because a lot of people don't know much about DE fluff and are making assumptions because of it.

SHUPPET wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Given that them being mono-gendered isn't actually at all important to their identity within the universe and faction, I would assume that Incubi can be male and female.

The idea that "in myths incubi are male!" simply doesn't hold up. Rhinos are mammals, not tanks. Crones aren't old ugly women. A Rhino Primaris isn't a mammal that's been given over to Cawl, nor is it even a tank that Primaris Marines can ride in.
It's a concept name, and nothing from that concept seems to have defined it's gender roles.

As mentioned earlier, male pronouns are used often in factions which we KNOW are multi-gender (Astra Militarum), so I wouldn't lean too strongly on this.

Frankly, the only three factions (or groups of factions) which I can 100% say are mono-gendered are Sisters of Battle, Space Marines (all types) and Sisters of Silence. Even Custodes I personally feel *could* have female aspirants, but that might just be my personal headcanon.

This might blow your mind, but maybe the Dark Eldar don't get women to do that job,

Do Dark Eldar seem like the kind of race and society to limit things based on gender? Are there any reasons why they would have that limitation?

At least with the Imperial examples, it's a political/legal reason, or a "scientific" one, but this one makes no sense. The only argument you seem to be standing on is "Incubi is a male term". As I've said, it's also a human Christian one, which the Dark Eldar most certainly are not, and furthermore, other names of things in 40k are not the same as their mythological counterparts. A Manticore is not very similar at all to the mythological Manticore. Nor is the Basilisk, or the Crone, or the Chimera.

Why would the Incubi be different?

or do care about keeping the title gender accurate.

The title which, as said earlier, is a human Christian mythical creature, which the Dark Eldar have no link to, other than the name sounding cool, and is most likely the human term for an otherwise extremely long and/or complicated Eldar name?

To throw a wrinkle into this conversation: do we actually know Incubi is a human term? Could it be an Eldar term that was introduced to mankind long ago?

That'd be more interaction than is currently evidenced elsewhere, but it's certainly possible.

If that *were* the case, it's still not definitive that Incubi meant the same thing for Eldar as it did for mankind (modern languages are full of words pulled from other languages but with other definitions). Further, Incubi at the time it would have been pulled into human mythology would not have meant the Incubi that exist 'today'. DE didn't exist yet. The modern DE 'Incubi' were nowhere close to existing yet. So we'd have two terms with related parantage. That makes it very likely that the specifics would be very different.

Essentially, we can at least assume that, according to probability, our definition and use of the term "Incubi" or "Incubus" is not the same as the Dark Eldar's.

 Overread wrote:
Meanwhile Daughters of Khaine only keep their males as weak servants and for menial duties in their society; only the very few become gifted enough to rise to the ranks of a Doomfire Warlock (the only male in their current army line up) and even they have to drink a potion that lets Morathi kill them with a whim if she thinks they are a threat (then again she does that with the females too - anything that's at threat dies)

DoK aren't 40k but it's worth noting that unlike other examples cited in this thread the DoK don't choose to exclude men from an abundance of capable candidates. Morathi literally sorts their souls and keeps the males in minority and physically hobbled. The reason the Doomfire Warlocks get marked with a self-destruct rune is they've augmented themselves past the weaknesses she's imposed on them and are therefore, by existing, have betrayed her to some degree.

Never have I thought that this would be a hill people choose to die on...

Here's the two outcomes:

Incubi are strictly male, everyone gets on with their lives and maybe there's a new plastic kit.

Incubi have females in the "aspect", everyone gets on with their lives and maybe there's a new plastic kit with some bewb plate

Part of the reason I stop posting on here is because most everything (other than general rules questions, lore and fun threads) has zero affect on the actual game. Layout precise math on why a unit sucks because other units in the same codex do the same job better and cheaper? Doesn't matter. Layout a hypothetical reason something doesn't make sense in the fluff? Doesn't matter.

Would pointing out that it has zero *effect*on the actual game, not affect be:
A) Completely missing the point
B) A demonstration of how some people (myself included) feel overly compelled to correct what they see as technical inaccuracies
C) A low-skill trolling attempt,
or
D) Funny.

I'm fairly sure it's B.

I agree that it doesn't matter. I'd go further and say that we're talking about a hobby where we make little plastic army men and have them blow eachother up in our MINDS. No thread here should be super important. Some of us still enjoy it.

Perhaps the Dark Eldar are selectivity sexist, or shape the armour to the biology of males, or any number of things.


This is not the hill to die on guys loool

Do Dark Eldar seem like the kind of race and society to limit things based on gender? Are there any reasons why they would have that limitation?

Are you asking if a sociaty where the survival of your own soul depends on the suffering of others would stop a whole half of its population from aquiring some sort of a position, of which the knowladge would surely generate suffering in that part of the half of the population that maybe interesting in holding that position?
Those people go as far as making their children think they are are trueborn, only to at some moment in their life inform them that they are in fact vat grown, and all the memories of their achivments are implants.

The only thing that is in favor of males/females as X in the dark eldar sociaty is efficiency, and the assumption that both sexs can do the job. Against it we have suffering,own and of others, as the core of the dark eldar sociaty.

Witch is purely female,

not in slavic folklor.

would imagine any conflict between Aspect Shrines is on a purely indavidual level and nothing to do with the Aspects as a whole.

In Warrior Coven the green Farseer, sells the last shining spear exarch to the dark eldar, and she does it because she is an ex dark reaper and hates the light. She even goes as far as sacrificing here deatwatch ally, I know a minor thing for an eldar, and some farseers, which is in fact a huge deal.

Karol wrote:
not in slavic folklor.

It's an English word in an English game made by English people working in England and writing their game in English.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Karol wrote:
not in slavic folklor.

It's an English word in an English game made by English people working in England and writing their game in English.

Well, it wasn't purely female in English origin either.

"The word witch derives from the Old English nouns wicca Old English pronunciation: [ˈwɪttʃɑ] ('sorcerer, male witch') and wicce Old English pronunciation: [ˈwɪttʃe] ('sorceress, female witch'). The word's further origins in Proto-Germanic and Proto-Indo-European are unclear."

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Karol wrote:
not in slavic folklor.

It's an English word in an English game made by English people working in England and writing their game in English.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus

No horse in this race but this is an interesting read, given that the word is Latin it’s entirely possible our version comes from the German version as opposed to the classic one... don’t know though.