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If we're talking point changes still, dropping Warriors a point or two would help.

I feel like Flayed Ones can take a drop too, 17 per is too much, 15 maybe.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Agreed....Doom Scythes should get strafing run.

Tesla Destructors should be 2dmg, str7, ap-1 now.

Maybe instead of mortal wounds, Gauss weaponry does double damage, double ap on 6s to wound vs vehicles?

Gauss weapons have bonus AP - they don't need more bonuses. What they need is a proper point cost.

Heres my solutions I play against Necrons a lot and I know exactly what they are missing.
Warriors get 3+ save and go down 1 point.
Immortals go down 2 points.
Stratagem that costs 3 points that allows you to use reanimation protcols (unbuffed) on a completely destroyed unit.
A solid drop of 10-15% point cost for for non quantum shielding vehcails.

Not sure about all the infantry but
Lychgaurd need to go down 5-10 points
Not sure about bikes but they seem kind of okay

A few weapons need adjustments to be more powerful - mainly the heatray - needs to be better.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Biasn wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hmm, would people be against - not - reducing the points of the monolith, but instead see a whole slew of new tactical stratagems for it?

Here's my wishlist:
- All Gauss weaponry increase AP and Damage by 1 when targeting vehicles
- Reanimation Protocols can now be done after a unit is wiped out. Units resurrected this way are instead placed in the "Tomb World" for future deployment.
- Tesla Weaponry now instead generates 1 extra hit to all other units within 6" of the target
-- Heavy Tesla now procs on a 5+
- Deathmark rifles now have AP -1
- Flayed ones not reduced in points, but can now deepstrike from the "Tomb World", basically making them a constant threat.
- Szeras and his upgrades can now stack on the same unit

My thoughts are to make Night Scythes, Monoliths and Telsa more useful while also diversifying the decision of Gauss vs Tesla immortals.

Thats some cool ideas!
I would like to see the DDA ignore 1 or 2 points of Invuln...it's one of the strongest weapons in the game god damnit

Those reanimation ideas are absolutely insane.

Here is a hint - when an opponent can bring back units you've killed at will with no counter other that (kill the 3 spiders first). The game is already lost. There is no point in playing that game. Might as well play narrative play and summon daemons for free - bust out unlimited termigants on a tervigon - or heck - why even pay points for units anymore if they all come back at full life when you kill them.

Seriously. Just make RP end of each phase. It would really help in the long run.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seriously. Just make RP end of each phase. It would really help in the long run.

^ This 100%!

WBB should always be at the end of phase!

 Blndmage wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seriously. Just make RP end of each phase. It would really help in the long run.

^ This 100%!

WBB should always be at the end of phase!

So, 20 unbuffed Warriors (240 points) versus 30 heavily buffed Plaguebearers (210 points plus buffers).

Let's assume that the Plaguebearers somehow manage to get the charge off without losing a single body. They then attack the Warriors, somehow getting 30/31 hits and 30/30 wounds. The Warriors fail an average number of saves, leaving them with 15.

There are 20 Warriors at the start of the combat phase.
There are 10 at the end (5 returned).
There are 13.33 at the end of Morale. (3.33 back.)
There are 15.55 at the end of Movement (2.22 back).
There are 17.03 at the end of Psychic (1.48 back).
There are 18.02 at the end of Shooting (.99 back).
There are 18.68 at the end of Charging (.66 back).
Only now can my Plaguebearers fight again, having inflicted, after RP, not quite 1.5 casualties.

210 points of close combat Troops, buffed sufficiently to have an about 50% chance (slightly less, actually) of doing 15 casualties in a phase, should not do that little damage.

For reference, to buff them sufficiently, you need 325 points of buffs, one of which is a Psychic power. (The units are a Prince, a Poxbringer, and a Scrivener.)

If RP is to happen at each phase, it needs to be SERIOUSLY adjusted.

Edit: Oh, and just for fun, here's what happens when the Warriors swing.

Each Warrior has 1 attack, 1/2 hits (Plaguebearers inflict a -1 to be hit in 20+ man squads), 1/4 wounds, 1/6 unsaved, and 1/9 past the FNP.

So that's 5/9 dead turn one, but if they swing first turn two, that's up to 2.63 dead, meaning they take one less casualty this time.

I'm not gonna do the math, but it's, at the very least, an INCREDIBLY CLOSE fight. Which would be fine, if it was 210 points of close combat troops versus 240 points of shooty troops. But it's 535 points, with buffs.

Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?

So a 210 point unit who's ONLY METHOD OF ATTACK is close combat, should lose to 240 points of shooting troops, when buffed by 325 points of characters, including a psychic power?

Edit: I'm not saying that they should one-round the Warriors-but over the course of two turns, they should have a pretty decisive victory.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?

So a 210 point unit who's ONLY METHOD OF ATTACK is close combat, should lose to 240 points of shooting troops, when buffed by 325 points of characters, including a psychic power?

Edit: I'm not saying that they should one-round the Warriors-but over the course of two turns, they should have a pretty decisive victory.

Except that's never been the point of Plaguebearers to be offensive.

RP as is doesn't work. Period. My proposal makes it work as the units are priced.

I could get onboard with rolling RP at the start of every player turn.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?

So a 210 point unit who's ONLY METHOD OF ATTACK is close combat, should lose to 240 points of shooting troops, when buffed by 325 points of characters, including a psychic power?

Edit: I'm not saying that they should one-round the Warriors-but over the course of two turns, they should have a pretty decisive victory.

Except that's never been the point of Plaguebearers to be offensive.

RP as is doesn't work. Period. My proposal makes it work as the units are priced.

Oh, I agree that RP right now sucks. But your proposal takes it to overpowered as hell.

And Plaguebearers, I agree, are less offensively potent than, say, Bloodletters. Because they're slower and more durable. But again-535 points worth of units and buffs who only work in CC should beat less than half their points in close combat. It might take a few turns, but it should happen.

Because right now...

Each Bearer attack, hitting on a 3+ and generating an extra attack on a 6, rerolling 1s, wounding on a 2 rerolling (due to all those buffs) do .47 wounds per attack.
Warriors do .11 per attack, but get 91.2% of their models back between each fight.

Turn One
Plagues get turn one, kill 14.57.
Warriors swing back, kill .60.
Warriors get up to 18.72.

Turn Two
Warriors swing, killing 2.08.
The remaining 27.32 Plaguebearers kill 13.31.
Warriors get 13.31 back, for a total of 18.72 again.

Turn Three
Plagues swing, killing 13.31 again.
Warriors swing, killing .60.
Warriors get 13.31 back AGAIN, for a total of 18.72.

Turn Four
Warriors swing, killing 2.08.
The remaining 24.64 Plagues swing, killing 11.58.
Warriors get 11.73 back, leaving them at 18.87.

I'll stop here. Why? Because the Warriors are winning. They're taking basically no losses, and whittling down the RIDICULOUSLY BUFFED Plaguebearers.

If I take this to its conclusion, they will win. In close combat. Against a close combat unit.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I could get onboard with rolling RP at the start of every player turn.

I'd go with at the END of the movement phase. That way, you can move your Crypteks and whatnot into range of their auras.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can literally SEE the models being transported in this case.

So what ? Its just a model, and its not the actual size. Pretty much all vehicles in 40k are way to small.

Xenomancers wrote:
Those reanimation ideas are absolutely insane.

Not if its a stratagem that costs 3 CP and can be only used once per game.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I could get onboard with rolling RP at the start of every player turn.

Yeah, that would make it see more play. Its way too easy to deny it right now, if you're opponent knows what he's doing.

Necrons don't need points adjustments, except in the case of flayed ones and warriors.
What they need are rules adjustments. Some rules have to buffed and other rules need to be tweaked to feel more natural. QS atm is pretty clunky. Nice and unique mechanic, but clunky.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?

When you sat at the end of the phase do you mean you get to roll for shot models at the end of the shooting phase and then they are either back or gone. Combat phase casualties back or gone at rhe end of the combat phase.

Or do you mean rolling for all casualties every phase?

One is stronger but probably inline with the points crons are paying.

The other is creating the next Alitoc Eldar OP BS.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Necrons don't need points adjustments, except in the case of flayed ones and warriors.
What they need are rules adjustments. Some rules have to buffed and other rules need to be tweaked to feel more natural. QS atm is pretty clunky. Nice and unique mechanic, but clunky.

Rule adjustments wont happen, only point reductions.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means, surprise surprise, you still need to focus on the squad.

Difference is that now they're priced appropriately. Don't act like Plaguebearers should be killing at a such a high rate anyway. Isn't their schtick durability anyway?

So a 210 point unit who's ONLY METHOD OF ATTACK is close combat, should lose to 240 points of shooting troops, when buffed by 325 points of characters, including a psychic power?

Edit: I'm not saying that they should one-round the Warriors-but over the course of two turns, they should have a pretty decisive victory.

Except that's never been the point of Plaguebearers to be offensive.

RP as is doesn't work. Period. My proposal makes it work as the units are priced.

Oh, I agree that RP right now sucks. But your proposal takes it to overpowered as hell.

And Plaguebearers, I agree, are less offensively potent than, say, Bloodletters. Because they're slower and more durable. But again-535 points worth of units and buffs who only work in CC should beat less than half their points in close combat. It might take a few turns, but it should happen.

Because right now...

Each Bearer attack, hitting on a 3+ and generating an extra attack on a 6, rerolling 1s, wounding on a 2 rerolling (due to all those buffs) do .47 wounds per attack.
Warriors do .11 per attack, but get 91.2% of their models back between each fight.

Turn One
Plagues get turn one, kill 14.57.
Warriors swing back, kill .60.
Warriors get up to 18.72.

Turn Two
Warriors swing, killing 2.08.
The remaining 27.32 Plaguebearers kill 13.31.
Warriors get 13.31 back, for a total of 18.72 again.

Turn Three
Plagues swing, killing 13.31 again.
Warriors swing, killing .60.
Warriors get 13.31 back AGAIN, for a total of 18.72.

Turn Four
Warriors swing, killing 2.08.
The remaining 24.64 Plagues swing, killing 11.58.
Warriors get 11.73 back, leaving them at 18.87.

I'll stop here. Why? Because the Warriors are winning. They're taking basically no losses, and whittling down the RIDICULOUSLY BUFFED Plaguebearers.

If I take this to its conclusion, they will win. In close combat. Against a close combat unit.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I could get onboard with rolling RP at the start of every player turn.

I'd go with at the END of the movement phase. That way, you can move your Crypteks and whatnot into range of their auras.

So what you're saying is that the designated tarpit unit of the Daemon codex isn't killing things fast? Shocker.

No.

He's saying the designated tarpit unit of the Daemon codex is doing 0 damage to the Warriors. Even when buffed by a lot more points.

Lets rerun that with Spears. That's about 6 spears.
Lets say Spears charged every turn, just to simplify the math.
Lets say Warriors miss every attack, just to simplify the math.
Back of the napkin math shows that it takes 6 Spears absurdly long to wipe out 20 Warriors.

Spears can, in theory, kill 12 in CC, with another 8 dying in morale. It's *technically* possible. But at a 4/9 chance to kill per attack, that's 6e-5 right there. Then you need a 6 on LD - bringing us to 1 chance in every 10,000 fight phases.

Why am I concerned with "wiping it in one round"? Because each model has a 90% chance of standing back up. Lets do the averages per turn:

Each combat phase, if Spears charge, Spears will average 5.33 kills.
Each turn, 90% of the dead stand up.

On any turn in which one or more Necrons are dead going into the combat phase, Necrons are coming back, on average, faster than they're being killed.

So one of the hardest hitting chargers getting their "i charged" bonus every turn, and never taking any casualties, will only beat your proposed Necron warriors in CC once every, roughly, 700 games.

That's not a tarpit. That's certainly not winning.

And what if you shot the unit of warriors first? Sure, some warriors will get back up, but it won't be all of them. Its still only a 33% chance of getting a warrior back.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Biasn wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hmm, would people be against - not - reducing the points of the monolith, but instead see a whole slew of new tactical stratagems for it?

Here's my wishlist:
- All Gauss weaponry increase AP and Damage by 1 when targeting vehicles
- Reanimation Protocols can now be done after a unit is wiped out. Units resurrected this way are instead placed in the "Tomb World" for future deployment.
- Tesla Weaponry now instead generates 1 extra hit to all other units within 6" of the target
-- Heavy Tesla now procs on a 5+
- Deathmark rifles now have AP -1
- Flayed ones not reduced in points, but can now deepstrike from the "Tomb World", basically making them a constant threat.
- Szeras and his upgrades can now stack on the same unit

My thoughts are to make Night Scythes, Monoliths and Telsa more useful while also diversifying the decision of Gauss vs Tesla immortals.

Thats some cool ideas!
I would like to see the DDA ignore 1 or 2 points of Invuln...it's one of the strongest weapons in the game god damnit

Those reanimation ideas are absolutely insane.

Here is a hint - when an opponent can bring back units you've killed at will with no counter other that (kill the 3 spiders first). The game is already lost. There is no point in playing that game. Might as well play narrative play and summon daemons for free - bust out unlimited termigants on a tervigon - or heck - why even pay points for units anymore if they all come back at full life when you kill them.

I should've probably mentioned it, but the way "Tomb World" deployment works right now is you need either a Monolith or a Doom Scythe to 'transport' units down.
So the counter play is to kill them, not to mention all units that would be spewing forth from those portals will be weakened, near MSU squads (Unless they are held back for later...)

What if the Warriors hit or shoot as well?

No, RP every phase is insane, if that’s the only change.

 JNAProductions wrote:
What if the Warriors hit or shoot as well?

No, RP every phase is insane, if that’s the only change.

Then congrats, you were shot by AP-1 Bolters?
Gimme a break.

Actually a 5/9 chance - 33% at the end of Shooting, 33% at the end of Assualt.

At any rate:
Shooting:
6 Spears:
6x1x(2/3)(2/3)(1) = 8/3 LL wounds
6x4x(2/3)[(1/6)(1) + (1/3)(1/2)] = 16/3 Shuriken wounds
8 die from shooting
1/3 stand up at end of shooting, 1/3 at the end of assault - only 3.6 stay dead
In CC:
6x2x(2/3)(2/3) = 16/3 wounds - 5.33 more die.
Roughly 9 are dead. 3 of those stand up.
There are now 14 Warriors alive.
Next phase - movement - 16 warriors are now alive
Next phase - psykic - 17.44 warriors are now alive
Next phase - shooting - 18.33 warriors are now alive
Next phase - Assault - 18.91
And now we fight again! Except without shooting first. So spears are much worse off. *AND* they didn't charge:
6x(1/3)(2/3) = 4/3 killed
And after RP, at the end of CC, we're back to 18.45 Warriors alive, out of the original 20.

That's without Overwatch. Without Necron Warriors fighting back at all.

That's crazy..

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What if the Warriors hit or shoot as well?

No, RP every phase is insane, if that’s the only change.

Then congrats, you were shot by AP-1 Bolters?
Gimme a break.

Shining Spears, charging every round, take a ridiculously long time to kill unbuffed Warriors.

That is assuming the Warriors never hit them. Ever.

If they can fight back, the Spears lose.

In addition, what about the Plaguebearers? They have an ability to reroll wounds. That’s a direct, offensive, non-tarpit ability. In addition, they are CC only. As opposed to Warriors, who are better at shooting than CC.

Yet, with barely any more points, almost totally buffed Plaguebearers fail to kill the Warriors. Not just in a reasonable amount of time-but fail to kill them at all. Add a cryptek or overlord and it gets worse.

Oh noes! Not AP-1 Bolters! They does nothings!

Shooting Shining Spears - not their favorite target:
20x2x(2/3)(1/2)(1/2) = that 20-man Necron Warrior blob does 20/3 wounds to Shining Spears in one shooting phase. Kills more than 3 Spears - over half their cost - of a unit that can't kill Necron Warriors even if they *don't* fight back.

Bharring wrote:
Actually a 5/9 chance - 33% at the end of Shooting, 33% at the end of Assualt.

At any rate:
Shooting:
6 Spears:
6x1x(2/3)(2/3)(1) = 8/3 LL wounds
6x4x(2/3)[(1/6)(1) + (1/3)(1/2)] = 16/3 Shuriken wounds
8 die from shooting
1/3 stand up at end of shooting, 1/3 at the end of assault - only 3.6 stay dead
In CC:
6x2x(2/3)(2/3) = 16/3 wounds - 5.33 more die.
Roughly 9 are dead. 3 of those stand up.
There are now 14 Warriors alive.
Next phase - movement - 16 warriors are now alive
Next phase - psykic - 17.44 warriors are now alive
Next phase - shooting - 18.33 warriors are now alive
Next phase - Assault - 18.91
And now we fight again! Except without shooting first. So spears are much worse off. *AND* they didn't charge:
6x(1/3)(2/3) = 4/3 killed
And after RP, at the end of CC, we're back to 18.45 Warriors alive, out of the original 20.

That's without Overwatch. Without Necron Warriors fighting back at all.

That's crazy..

Which means you shoot the 1.55 left over with something else, and now you don't have to worry after your charge! Crazy stuff, huh?

What if RP was changed to a base 6+, rather than 5+, but is made at the beginning of each players turn, and at the end of a phase where models are lost?

Slayer - you can't shoot the 1.55 at that point - as they're dead. It's the living 18.45 Warriors that you're fighting.

But then, each of those 1.55 Warriors are 90% likely to be up and moving after another full battle round.

How is it OK to have ~18 of your 20 Warriors still in the game after 7 turns of being attacked by one of the harder-hitting units in the game?

RP is fine as it is, I just dislike the massive cost per model for something that 99% of opponents have now figured out is easily bypassed by concentrated fire.

I know DG have stolen our FNP-a-like reanimate .. so I'm not going to be bitter and demand we get it back...

a stratagem to roll RP for a destroyed squad for 2CP would be pretty awesome (same as the character one)

Gauss should have the same rule as scarab swarms either always wound vehicles on 5 ... or +1 to wound rolls vs. vehicles. or even 2D vs vehicles.

heavy Tesla (Annhi barges, and croissants) should be S8 and 2 damage 0AP ... but it's never gonna happen ... anyoneone seen a single 'Codex' with revised weapon stats in errata since they started dropping ? nope.

Get it back? The FNP like never belonged to Necrons to begin with.
Necrons copied FNP from the Death Guard in 7th, not the other way around.

Which was a toned down version of what they had before that - a 5+ to stand back up at the end of the phase in which they died - fail that, and the model is out of the game.

FnP was an upgrade to that, in the vast majority of cases. New-RP seems to be an upgrade on even that - but not as much of an upgrade as other factions tended to get in the version transition.

Lets face it GW will never price necrons half decently cause they always think that their playerbase is to dumb to focus fire.

7th edition LOS rules (you can only damage models you can see) would at least help a bit.