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 grouchoben wrote:
Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I'd like to see heavy options for troops, grav-bikes, a cheap transport, an actual CC unit that can do anything except punch GEQs, etc. There's a lot of new ground for them to cover, and currently the big new reboot of 40k's central faction has been treading water for over a year.

(None of this is to comment on what is 'right' or 'fair' in comparison to the neglected factions - just a comment upon GW's reboot of the flagship faction of their flagship game.)

I agree. That's why I was wondering about sales figures. The whole thing smacks of one of three things: slow sales, it was 'someone else's baby' and that person is no longer driving things, or they went off half-cocked and have no idea where to go now.

I really hope we get some get some new units with the Space Wolf release. I really like the Primaris models and I've been building a full pure army of them (as old marines look stupid next to them,) but the line being so limited is a problem.

Banville wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I'd like to see heavy options for troops, grav-bikes, a cheap transport, an actual CC unit that can do anything except punch GEQs, etc. There's a lot of new ground for them to cover, and currently the big new reboot of 40k's central faction has been treading water for over a year.

(None of this is to comment on what is 'right' or 'fair' in comparison to the neglected factions - just a comment upon GW's reboot of the flagship faction of their flagship game.)

I agree. That's why I was wondering about sales figures. The whole thing smacks of one of three things: slow sales, it was 'someone else's baby' and that person is no longer driving things, or they went off half-cocked and have no idea where to go now.

How GW haven't understood what almost everyone who plays the game with any intention of winning knows.
If a model as sucky rules it's rarely going to get played, look at how quickly certain units have gone out of stock when the get good rules. But the new hitness with pants rules sits on the store shelf for months.
The problem with the above is the 40K design team don't seem to understand why units do or don't work. So thet can't even right the rules to boost sales.
Like seriously 20+ points for an intercessor without weapons?
They still arn't exactlly competitive at their CA discount of 18points the Kill team designers had to reduce them to 15 points.
Also currently they lack a numver of options that old marines have so to make a marine army work you need both sizes or pure old marines. Most marine players are going to have masses of old marines or plenty available second hand so why pay GW prices for new units that are lack luster on the table top?

Stormcast always seem to be in competitive settings for AoS hence why they are seeing sales growth as AoS expands.

 grouchoben wrote:
Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I

you're forgetting rievers and redemptor dreadnoughts,

not including what we got in DI, Primaris got Reivers, agressors, a redeptor dreadnought, and 6 independant characters (counting the dark angel and blood angels Lts here)

Deathguard meanwhile got death shroud terminators, Blightlord Terminators, Myphitic Blight Haulers, Plague Burst Crawlers, and 7 characters (one of whom was Mortarian, Primaris Marines where planned and ready when Gulliman dropped so we can proably include Gulliman as the "vanguard" of Primaris Marines)


So.... pretty much the same number of units. meanwhile other armies with considerable new army drops this year have been Custodes with a grand total of 4 new kits one of which was an indepenant character, Necrons who got a single new HQ, and Imperial Knights with 4 new units (which let's face it is effectively two units that GW just put the weapon options for the varients in a seperate box)

So yeah I'm sorry but the idea that GW has abandoned primaris marines is laughable. Primaris Marines have gotten more new unit boxes then NEW ARMIES

BrianDavion wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I

you're forgetting rievers and redemptor dreadnoughts,

not including what we got in DI, Primaris got Reivers, agressors, a redeptor dreadnought, and 6 independant characters (counting the dark angel and blood angels Lts here)

Deathguard meanwhile got death shroud terminators, Blightlord Terminators, Myphitic Blight Haulers, Plague Burst Crawlers, and 7 characters (one of whom was Mortarian, Primaris Marines where planned and ready when Gulliman dropped so we can proably include Gulliman as the "vanguard" of Primaris Marines)


So.... pretty much the same number of units. meanwhile other armies with considerable new army drops this year have been Custodes with a grand total of 4 new kits one of which was an indepenant character, Necrons who got a single new HQ, and Imperial Knights with 4 new units (which let's face it is effectively two units that GW just put the weapon options for the varients in a seperate box)

So yeah I'm sorry but the idea that GW has abandoned primaris marines is laughable. Primaris Marines have gotten more new unit boxes then NEW ARMIES

Agree generally. Primaris got a bunch of kits. They'll get more I'm sure, but they've had loads of support.

And yeah, 18pt Intercessors still aren't very good... But they're still better than Tacs, so...

Stux wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Anything at this point. The Primaris release has been a realllly odd one. The Aggressor and the Repulsor are literally the only new units they've had since they first dropped in Dark Imperium, unless you consider the reskins of Cap/Libby/Apothecary. They've been starved of new models & units compared to DG, who were released at the same time.

I

you're forgetting rievers and redemptor dreadnoughts,

not including what we got in DI, Primaris got Reivers, agressors, a redeptor dreadnought, and 6 independant characters (counting the dark angel and blood angels Lts here)

Deathguard meanwhile got death shroud terminators, Blightlord Terminators, Myphitic Blight Haulers, Plague Burst Crawlers, and 7 characters (one of whom was Mortarian, Primaris Marines where planned and ready when Gulliman dropped so we can proably include Gulliman as the "vanguard" of Primaris Marines)


So.... pretty much the same number of units. meanwhile other armies with considerable new army drops this year have been Custodes with a grand total of 4 new kits one of which was an indepenant character, Necrons who got a single new HQ, and Imperial Knights with 4 new units (which let's face it is effectively two units that GW just put the weapon options for the varients in a seperate box)

So yeah I'm sorry but the idea that GW has abandoned primaris marines is laughable. Primaris Marines have gotten more new unit boxes then NEW ARMIES

Agree generally. Primaris got a bunch of kits. They'll get more I'm sure, but they've had loads of support.

And yeah, 18pt Intercessors still aren't very good... But they're still better than Tags, so...

Yeah I don't get the idea that their deployment has been limited and "GW seems not to have much enthusism for it"

Looking at this year's 40k releases primaris marines basicly account for a full third of the model releases this year. if ANY other faction got that percentage of new models they'd be in cloud nine.

Things I would like:
A smaller APC that can fit a single 5-Man squad of Reavers, Intercessors, or Hellblasters. Have it be basically a Razorback equivalent. Perhaps with one of the Onslaught Cannons on the top.

Close Combat Inceptors.

ATV riding Intercessors with an Onslaught Cannon on their ATVs.

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

The Newman wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

Because they look hella stupid.

The Newman wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

Sarcasm?

Andykp wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t get the level of primaris hate fluffwise. I know it’s not the best but it’s hardly game breaking, people were happy marines kept getting new tanks and plains and guns but new marines is a massive no no. It’s not like it just happened, it was supposed to be going on for 10000 years. That’s a long time. I think they could’ve done more about some chapters refusing them or being unhappy but that wouldn’t have made sense marketing wise as they were supposed to sell to existing marine players and you would be pretty upset if your beloved chapter couldn’t get it’s hands in new stuff. Old marines were done. They had milked every idea out of them. No more money to be made there.

As for primaris not being a success I don’t see that at all. The financials show 8th being a great success and that was launched with primaris, also anecdotally I sell painted miniatures and the primaris ones still sel, faster than any others I’ve done.

I dislike it because it's lazy writing. I had actually enjoyed that they moved the story along a bit when they first did the End Times trilogy for 40k and was glad they handled it a lot better than Fantasy. My issue going forward is if anything the Imperium seems to suddenly be fundamentally written in a different manor. Primaris Marines are marines plus 1 who some how fix any flaw the various chapters had because Cawl does science better than the emperor could do. I'm a marine playing for over a decade and I just find this to the most boring and uninspired thing GW could have done.

Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour? I’m with the others. This isn’t as lazy as the whole “you’ve had it all along” stuff from before. Maybe the emperor would’ve come up with them or better but he got stuck in the throne so couldn’t.


I love the models. Had a lot a dark angels before and never had a problem with the scale of them but after seeing primaris I couldn’t Unser my big headed old marines so they had to go.

Your comparing poor fluff to poor fluff to justify GW doing something lazy and boring. Again, the models are cool but background wise I don't like anything about them, especially with GW suddenly having the IOM having tech moving forward again, things being hopeful despite the galaxy which should be worse than ever. I would rather GW double down on darkness, instead we seem headed towards hope.

 Crimson wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

Because they look hella stupid.

No need to be so dramatic, it's just an opinion. I happen to agree with The Newman that they look awesome, I would definitely run them if they weren't horribly costed this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I don’t get the level of primaris hate fluffwise. I know it’s not the best but it’s hardly game breaking, people were happy marines kept getting new tanks and plains and guns but new marines is a massive no no. It’s not like it just happened, it was supposed to be going on for 10000 years. That’s a long time. I think they could’ve done more about some chapters refusing them or being unhappy but that wouldn’t have made sense marketing wise as they were supposed to sell to existing marine players and you would be pretty upset if your beloved chapter couldn’t get it’s hands in new stuff. Old marines were done. They had milked every idea out of them. No more money to be made there.

As for primaris not being a success I don’t see that at all. The financials show 8th being a great success and that was launched with primaris, also anecdotally I sell painted miniatures and the primaris ones still sel, faster than any others I’ve done.

I dislike it because it's lazy writing. I had actually enjoyed that they moved the story along a bit when they first did the End Times trilogy for 40k and was glad they handled it a lot better than Fantasy. My issue going forward is if anything the Imperium seems to suddenly be fundamentally written in a different manor. Primaris Marines are marines plus 1 who some how fix any flaw the various chapters had because Cawl does science better than the emperor could do. I'm a marine playing for over a decade and I just find this to the most boring and uninspired thing GW could have done.

Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour? I’m with the others. This isn’t as lazy as the whole “you’ve had it all along” stuff from before. Maybe the emperor would’ve come up with them or better but he got stuck in the throne so couldn’t.


I love the models. Had a lot a dark angels before and never had a problem with the scale of them but after seeing primaris I couldn’t Unser my big headed old marines so they had to go.

Your comparing poor fluff to poor fluff to justify GW doing something lazy and boring. Again, the models are cool but background wise I don't like anything about them, especially with GW suddenly having the IOM having tech moving forward again, things being hopeful despite the galaxy which should be worse than ever. I would rather GW double down on darkness, instead we seem headed towards hope.

Lazy and boring again are your opinion. To me they are using it to do something much needed to shake things up and I'm loving the results. Primaris basically got me back into the game on their own.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your comparing poor fluff to poor fluff to justify GW doing something lazy and boring. Again, the models are cool but background wise I don't like anything about them, especially with GW suddenly having the IOM having tech moving forward again, things being hopeful despite the galaxy which should be worse than ever. I would rather GW double down on darkness, instead we seem headed towards hope.

I've been reading the recent fluff, where is this hope coming from? The fanatics are emboldened by the rise of the son of their god, who doesn't believe his father to be a god and found out his father doesn't consider him his son. It's a morass of contradiction and loathing moving forward despite this due to the son's sense of duty.

The son has taken actions that would get anyone else in the galaxy censured by the inquisition, the mechanicus and the administratum and is grinding the corruption of the feudal imperium under an even heavier martial boot than they've endured in his absence. He has achieved this martial strength and his own life by embracing xenos and a massive heretech who's flatly lying to him but he has few other options to act on as the galaxy splits in half in front of him. And this is all earning him the true love and respect of... more or less no one because the people who like him consider him a deity and those he's supposed to be working through are having their entitlements threatened by a powerful central figure in government.

90% of the 'winning' of the imperium right now is "oh we're not dead yet" just like it's been for the last twenty years of this setting's existence.

The primaris certainly feel like a bit of an asspull, but they bring a lot of fun stupidity with them, like totally not traitor geneseed and I can't believe it's not loyalist implications on more or less all sides of their creation. They're men pulled from arbitrary points in the imperium's history, shoved into the easy bake primaris oven and then shoved into tech of questionable provenance to save an imperium that's a wild perversion of their ideals. There's wild possibilities to play with here, you know, like back before every type of marine had a codex and a model and a niche.

If there had been some kind of lead in, it may not have been all that bad, as it is appearing from whole cloth is plenty stretched, but it's not a bright future here, it's the seeds of the imperium falling apart completely the moment someone has leverage to question Gulli. You know, like the next primarch to show up, any of which are entirely likely to kick him in the nuts for having the gall he's had. And that's without considering the possibility of a failed crusade on his part, which is entirely possible given the fact that he was being lead by the dangly bits by chaos for a while there.

 Crimson wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

Because they look hella stupid.

They seem like prototype Gravis armour in retrospect.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

They seem like prototype Gravis armour in retrospect.

Well, Aggressors are the worst looking* Primaris unit, but they're still a massive improvement over Centurions!

(*It's really not the armour, it's the oversized mittens. I want Gravis guys with better looking weapon options.)

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

They seem like prototype Gravis armour in retrospect.

Well, Aggressors are the worst looking* Primaris unit, but they're still a massive improvement over Centurions!

(*It's really not the armour, it's the oversized mittens. I want Gravis guys with better looking weapon options.)

I meant it being a kind of massive weapons platform that layers extra armour over the wearer.

I feel like Centurions would look better if their arm mounted guns were either eliminated, or shoulder mounted instead. As is they add a silly amount of bulk to the army and break up the lines on the arms too much.

The big mitts being power fists works for me. Powerfists have always looked a bit silly.

On a different note, the army's biggest issue is that there is no real melee option. Like you can throw some weight if you get dragged in, but basically the army is a kind of gunline (which works for my Imperial Fists but not so much for other armies), but if Space Wolves bring us melee oriented Primaris this could balance that out a bit.

I can definitely agree a lighter transport would be nice, especially if they finally pull the trigger on a Grav Rhino, but I disagree about just unlocking regular Marine options for transports (and vice versa). Primaris and old Marines are basically two different armies and the transport thing is a line in the sand that will further divide things and allow us to go forward with making the Primaris a full army on their own.

I wouldn't mind having cross-access to the vehicles, but I would definitely prefer more grav-based vehicles for Primaris. I think they should get grav-bikes too, to continue the theme.

Smaller, cheap grav transport which can carry six guys (or three gravis guys) would be ideal.

 Crimson wrote:
I wouldn't mind having cross-access to the vehicles, but I would definitely prefer more grav-based vehicles for Primaris. I think they should get grav-bikes too, to continue the theme.

Smaller, cheap grav transport which can carry six guys (or three gravis guys) would be ideal.

Grav bikes could come later, but they probably need a retool from being too much like Custodes or Space Marine bikes to fit some other niche on the table. Maybe as more of a hit and run melee unit ala the Eldar's style. That or we'll just get them when the marine bikes are given the squatting.

Actually instead of grav bikes, I'd argue they should get squads of Land Speeder style things that fill the same role as attack bikes but with heavier armour and weapons. It could even be a way to bring us a light transport to the army, ala Land Speeder Storm, but with a bit more bulk to it.

Like i said in 1st post, i want normal bikes so they force them to get better, they are completely garbage right now.

Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I don't think we're going to see Primaris Terminators to be honest. Gravis seems to be the Terminator replacement and unless GW pulls a surprise we're not going to see it.

That said, I feel like we still have room for a lot of stuff on the table and I look forward to seeing what comes next.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't think we're going to see Primaris Terminators to be honest. Gravis seems to be the Terminator replacement and unless GW pulls a surprise we're not going to see it.

That said, I feel like we still have room for a lot of stuff on the table and I look forward to seeing what comes next.

I disagree for two reasons.

Firstly I think the battlefield role of Terminators is actually very different to any Gravis we've seen. While they are both chunked up power armour, there's loads of design space still to have both.

Secondly, and I know this is a controversial point, I believe one day eventually Primaris will be the only type of Marine actively supported, and they'll want to preserve the iconic Terminator look in some way, just as Intercessors preserve the iconic Power Armour look in a modern form.

Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

The Newman wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Worse than marines in power armour, in more power armour?

I don't get why people don't like Centurions, they're my favorite model in the SM range. I think they're a little overpriced for the stats, but that's a whole different issue.

Because they look hella stupid.

No need to be so dramatic, it's just an opinion. I happen to agree with The Newman that they look awesome, I would definitely run them if they weren't horribly costed this edition.

They're Space Marine themed Hulk Busters. The other thing that fits that description is Dreadknights, those look hella stupid. I even prefer the arm cannons, I think they would look funny on the shoulders.

I've fielded them even with the point cost issues, they've done surprisingly good work for me. Auspex Scanner is kind of brutal on them, they're a lot of firepower in a small footprint.

The Newman wrote:

They're Space Marine themed Hulk Busters. The other thing that fits that description is Dreadknights, those look hella stupid. I even prefer the arm cannons, I think they would look funny on the shoulders.

That is why the look familiar, I think they look kinda cool, buy maybe not 40k enough, they feel more like something heresy era when people actually understood what tech was and it wasn't just blindly mistisized.

Primaris centurions with onslaught Cannons could be the anti horde weapon they need.
Though I really think the killer is they have no effective CC unit, and the Primaris Charictor options suck. You have these beat stick hero's with 0 appropriate wargear.

I think the current SM codex (with both regular and Primaris SM) offers a good selection of unique armour variants.

Compared to regular SM, Primaris get +1W and +1A.
Gravis armour gets Primaris +1T on top of that (with -1M).
Terminators get +1W, +1A, +1Ld and a 2+ save (with -1M).

Points values might still need further tweaking of course, but we have the CA mechanism for that.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Your comparing poor fluff to poor fluff to justify GW doing something lazy and boring. Again, the models are cool but background wise I don't like anything about them, especially with GW suddenly having the IOM having tech moving forward again, things being hopeful despite the galaxy which should be worse than ever. I would rather GW double down on darkness, instead we seem headed towards hope.

I've been reading the recent fluff, where is this hope coming from? The fanatics are emboldened by the rise of the son of their god, who doesn't believe his father to be a god and found out his father doesn't consider him his son. It's a morass of contradiction and loathing moving forward despite this due to the son's sense of duty.

The son has taken actions that would get anyone else in the galaxy censured by the inquisition, the mechanicus and the administratum and is grinding the corruption of the feudal imperium under an even heavier martial boot than they've endured in his absence. He has achieved this martial strength and his own life by embracing xenos and a massive heretech who's flatly lying to him but he has few other options to act on as the galaxy splits in half in front of him. And this is all earning him the true love and respect of... more or less no one because the people who like him consider him a deity and those he's supposed to be working through are having their entitlements threatened by a powerful central figure in government.

90% of the 'winning' of the imperium right now is "oh we're not dead yet" just like it's been for the last twenty years of this setting's existence.

The primaris certainly feel like a bit of an asspull, but they bring a lot of fun stupidity with them, like totally not traitor geneseed and I can't believe it's not loyalist implications on more or less all sides of their creation. They're men pulled from arbitrary points in the imperium's history, shoved into the easy bake primaris oven and then shoved into tech of questionable provenance to save an imperium that's a wild perversion of their ideals. There's wild possibilities to play with here, you know, like back before every type of marine had a codex and a model and a niche.

If there had been some kind of lead in, it may not have been all that bad, as it is appearing from whole cloth is plenty stretched, but it's not a bright future here, it's the seeds of the imperium falling apart completely the moment someone has leverage to question Gulli. You know, like the next primarch to show up, any of which are entirely likely to kick him in the nuts for having the gall he's had. And that's without considering the possibility of a failed crusade on his part, which is entirely possible given the fact that he was being lead by the dangly bits by chaos for a while there.

I've been re-reading gathering storm and there was a bit of a lead in, we just missed it. go re-read the GS books, paying close attention to the bits about Cawl with primaris marines in light, the hindsight makes it clear they where leading there from the rlease of GS1.

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

The Newman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

Yeah we desperately need a cheap transport and one that actually competes with other armies. I love the humble rhino, but it's always been trash in game terms.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Free exalts for posts mentioning Gatling Cannons!

A Razorback with a HOG Cannon on top? Yes, please!

Also I'd like to see a teleporting assault terminator type unit. Not in Gravis armour though, give us another armour type! Little Marines have four terminator kits! We want Primaris Terminators! With Gatling Cannons!

I suggested that as an alternate weapon for Hellblasters, and then I remembered what the profile on the Onslaught looks like. Not that it's bad in that context, but it would make adding an Aggressor to an Intercessor squad a much harder sell.

Yeah we desperately need a cheap transport and one that actually competes with other armies. I love the humble rhino, but it's always been trash in game terms.

Going to disagree, from 5th to 7th for 35 point's it was a solid transport. It did both well, it was cheap and it bought what ever was inside it a few rounds of fire while they got there. Didn't have much offense on it's own but with two fire points, what it was transporting could kill things.

Agreed. The Rhino was cheap enough to fit several in a list, and it was almost a requirement for armies that had them to take them.