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Martel732 wrote:
Almost every weapon that works well vs Drukhari slaughters primaris. Almost every weapon that works well vs quantum shielding slaughters primaris. The kinds of weapons you want vs Tau in general also slaughter primaris, not to mention the missile systems of said Tau. The battle cannon is super nasty vs primaris.

Most of those weapons are good against a lot of targets. Not really a point of them being specifically out to kill Primaris when they're solid TAC choices.

Martel732 wrote:
Xenos are forcing a move away from low RoF good AP weapons to high volume, poorer AP, D3 or 2 damage weapons. Unless you think your pair of BA capts can punch all that stuff to death. Highly unlikely.

My yellow Marines can beat up your Red ones.

Seriously though, not all of us run Blood Angels. I'm building 4th company Imperial Fists. I reach out and slap Xenos out of cover instead of trying to Smashcaptain my way to victory.

And as a counterpoint to your Xenos claim: Imperial Knights are going to force it right back the other way, which make horde Xenos better as people are forced to bring tools to kill LoW models again. A good list will have tools for both, but having both they'll dilute how effective either is.

Martel732 wrote:
Couple this with the lack of range of primaris units and its just a slaughter. Hellblasters are easily countered by any kind of to hit penalty, and are at half firepower outside of 15". By the time primaris are in optimal firing range 66% or more are dead.

Maybe it's because I'm a Sisters player as well, but 30" average is excellent range and I can't figure out where you're thinking it's poor. 36" threat range on most weapons, and if you want to bend the Primaris definition to include Dreadnoughts of multiple flavors it's not hard to fit in some dedicated anti-tank that has better range.

And Hellblasters are only "countered" if you're constantly overcharging. Which to be honest, only seems necessary if you're throwing them at heavy vehicles or big monsters. Hell I've seen some people talk about running the Assault plasma successfully and they basically spend the entire game running about and hitting targets of opportunity with them. Overcharging is pretty rare for them because of that.

And I'm not even going to start challenging your math because arguments should be made for LOS blocking terrain mitigating the power of most gunlines (and those "dreaded" autocannons) and using things like the Repulsor to shield one group of units while you transport another. Yes the Repulsor will die, but you've already gotten first turn to everything but a Knight army due to your smaller number of drops (you can easily turn 6 drops into 1 with a Repulsor (5 man Hellblaster unit+Capt+2 LTs+Ancient for example and the vehicle is 6 seperate drops you can make into 1) and got a chance to do some unloading on your opponent and get your army into a more secure mid-field position where you're more dangerous.

Basically, the math can be tweaked for any situation but every table should be equipped with terrain that properly blocks line of sight at least part way across the table and players shouldn't just be standing in the open asking to be shot. Tactics are important to mitigate your weaknesses while leveraging your strengths.

You seem to forget this though as you seem to think that every weakness an army has are impossible to mitigated and the only thing a person should do in a bad match up is concede and go start a new army instead of trying to out play their opponent on the mission.

Martel732 wrote:
The guy isn't bringing ACs and hydras to kill primaris. Primaris just get murdered along the way.

Are you trying to make me give you a "get gud" here or something? I mean if this is the same guy who was illegally using his Catachan to reroll his mortar teams then you probably have bigger issues than just being steamrolled by a bad match up.

For the record, since you don't like to look up your opponent's rules, they only get those rerolls on vehicles:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, these weapons stink vs IKs. But so do most shooting weapons. The ones with really nice AP and low RoF are countered by the ion shielding just as they are countered by all the cheap invulns littering Xeno lists. I don't see a reason to bring a lascannon anymore.

You can't seem to imagine a lot of things based on your arguements. You seem to think that the only thing in the game worth taking note of is the Xenos threat while Knight Soup Lists are starting to become a massive contender in tournament metas. Basically it's not the Xenos alone you need tools for and if you're ignoring the Knights prepare to end up hard countered because of it.

On a different note, when we do get a new codex, I want a better balance on Chapter Tactics (Marine vehicles shouldn't be the only ones left without the ability to benefit. I mean frikkin Cultists gain Heretic Astartes benefits, it's basically pointless to say the tanks piloted by actual Chapter Astartes can't benefit too), something to replace the anti-Fortification bonus for IF (maybe give us Bolter Drill standard and give the Fortification bonus the Stratagem treatment), and a complete rework on stratagems. Most of them are pretty weak for most armies, and there is a strange lack of support for Primaris among most of the options despite being the new poster boys of the game.

And more specifically to just Space Wolves, I want to know more about the Wolfspear. A primaris SW successor could be really cool if done well and I'm hoping they look as good as the idea sounds.

I last longer vs IKs than I do Xeno gunlines. AT least with IKs I can play objectives and I have models left alive around turn 3. I have to build for triple ravager, because it will end my game much faster than some IK.

I've got a couple BA captains and I have to hope those slow down the IKs enough.

30" just sucks to me in a world with so many 36" mobile guns and 48"+ guns.

Martel732 wrote:
I last longer vs IKs than I do Xeno gunlines. AT least with IKs I can play objectives and I have models left alive around turn 3.

I've got a couple BA captains and I have to hope those slow down the IKs enough.

30" just sucks to me in a world with so many 36" mobile guns and 48"+ guns.

The point is back that way because you clearly just missed it.

It's not how well your army does against Knights, it was about how well other armies handle knights and how they can't be tailoring to just kill Xenos because they also need to balance that with Knights. This makes it less likely to face the kind of lists you described that don't have high damage anti-tank weapons because you want to kill the Knight as fast as possible instead of allowing it to run around the board stomping mudholes into things.

As for the range, I did address that to some extent already: namely you want claim the center field (which should have some good terrain on it) to give yourself the range to reach out and touch things without just throwing yourself into their lines to be ground down to mulch.

High damage at doesn't even work well vs iks. Why would i rely on it against anyone other than ig?

Martel732 wrote:
High damage at doesn't even work well vs iks. Why would i rely on it against anyone other than ig?

High damage works against large multi-wound models in general. Why would you waste the entire game trying to strip off 24 wounds with S5, D2 weapons?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
High damage at doesn't even work well vs iks. Why would i rely on it against anyone other than ig?

High damage works against large multi-wound models in general. Why would you waste the entire game trying to strip off 24 wounds with S5, D2 weapons?

You clearly haven't seen the math behind Disintegrators.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
High damage at doesn't even work well vs iks. Why would i rely on it against anyone other than ig?

High damage works against large multi-wound models in general. Why would you waste the entire game trying to strip off 24 wounds with S5, D2 weapons?

They don't work well vs iks and completely fail vs xenos. Seems like a risky weapon type to me. I can ignore iks better than ravagers when push comes to shove.

Martel732 wrote:
I last longer vs IKs than I do Xeno gunlines. AT least with IKs I can play objectives and I have models left alive around turn 3. I have to build for triple ravager, because it will end my game much faster than some IK.

I've got a couple BA captains and I have to hope those slow down the IKs enough.

30" just sucks to me in a world with so many 36" mobile guns and 48"+ guns.

30 inch range for basic troops guns suck? ...... are you high?Or are you just running your Marines without support? I don't mean running soup eaither, I mean just what I said SUPPORT, transports, tanks, air cover, artillery etc.

If you keep trying to run your basic infantry up the board everytime supported by maybe a single star unit, then it's proably not a suprise you die.

Let's look at Intercessors vs EVERY other armies CORE troops shall we?

Necrons: 24 inch basic troops.
Eldar: ok eldar rangers have a 36 inch base weapons range but this are your scout equivilant, more commonly you have guardians with a range of 24.
Dark Eldar: 24 inch
Orks: 18 inch
Tau: 30 inch
Tyranids: 18 inch

So yeah I call bs on your range complaint. Primaris Marines OUT RANGE most troop options out there. so if you can't play the range game with em as is? yeah you might wanna adjust your tactics

Unfortunately, my xeno opponents aren't relying on their troops for anything. 18 destroyers makes quick work of your primaris trying to hold midfield, for example. Comparing marine troops to other troops is pointless because there's no guarantee that that will be the matchup.

Also, i was talking about hellblasters specifically having gakky range.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
High damage at doesn't even work well vs iks. Why would i rely on it against anyone other than ig?

High damage works against large multi-wound models in general. Why would you waste the entire game trying to strip off 24 wounds with S5, D2 weapons?

You clearly haven't seen the math behind Disintegrators.

My point was there are tools specifically designed to put high numbers of wounds on Knights at the same time, why would anyone (who isn't Dark Eldar at least) only load up for anti-horde when there is a better tool for the job?

It's bad target priority to use weapons this way.,

I'm not going anti-horde. I'm going anti-xeno. Very different.

Martel732 wrote:
Unfortunately, my xeno opponents aren't relying on their troops for anything. 18 destroyers makes quick work of your primaris trying to hold midfield, for example. Comparing marine troops to other troops is pointless because there's no guarantee that that will be the matchup.

Also, i was talking about hellblasters specifically having gakky range.

If you're talking about a specific unit and not the general range band of an army maybe you should clarify that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not going anti-horde. I'm going anti-xeno. Very different.

Are you going anti-reading comprehension too? Because I keep talking about how YOUR OPPONENT will need different tools than JUST weapons that hard counter Primaris (excluding Dark Eldar...apparently) and how that softens any hard counter list (that isn't being tailored against you) and you keep talking about how you load up your list.

I thought i called out hellblasters. My apologies.

33 ppm is a lot to lose to a 2 damage shot. I really don't like hellblasters at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Unfortunately, my xeno opponents aren't relying on their troops for anything. 18 destroyers makes quick work of your primaris trying to hold midfield, for example. Comparing marine troops to other troops is pointless because there's no guarantee that that will be the matchup.

Also, i was talking about hellblasters specifically having gakky range.

If you're talking about a specific unit and not the general range band of an army maybe you should clarify that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not going anti-horde. I'm going anti-xeno. Very different.

Are you going anti-reading comprehension too? Because I keep talking about how YOUR OPPONENT will need different tools than JUST weapons that hard counter Primaris (excluding Dark Eldar...apparently) and how that softens any hard counter list (that isn't being tailored against you) and you keep talking about how you load up your list.

I'm not confident that's going to happen. Again, why would anyone load up on weapons that only work vs a narrow range of lists? What do you think people should bring other than 2 damage spam?

Martel732 wrote:
I thought i called out hellblasters. My apologies.

33 ppm is a lot to lose to a 2 damage shot. I really don't like hellblasters at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Unfortunately, my xeno opponents aren't relying on their troops for anything. 18 destroyers makes quick work of your primaris trying to hold midfield, for example. Comparing marine troops to other troops is pointless because there's no guarantee that that will be the matchup.

Also, i was talking about hellblasters specifically having gakky range.

If you're talking about a specific unit and not the general range band of an army maybe you should clarify that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not going anti-horde. I'm going anti-xeno. Very different.

Are you going anti-reading comprehension too? Because I keep talking about how YOUR OPPONENT will need different tools than JUST weapons that hard counter Primaris (excluding Dark Eldar...apparently) and how that softens any hard counter list (that isn't being tailored against you) and you keep talking about how you load up your list.

I'm not confident that's going to happen. Again, why would anyone load up on weapons that only work vs a narrow range of lists? What do you think people should bring other than 2 damage spam?

Then don;'t take hellblasters. Hellblasters are a solid pick for certain situations (they're great if you want to delete terminators for example) they are NOT however nesscarily the best unit for some thing, Honestly? if you're fighting a lot of xenos, hellblasters are proably unnesscary .

Yeah, that's my point.

Martel732 wrote:
I thought i called out hellblasters. My apologies.

33 ppm is a lot to lose to a 2 damage shot. I really don't like hellblasters at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Unfortunately, my xeno opponents aren't relying on their troops for anything. 18 destroyers makes quick work of your primaris trying to hold midfield, for example. Comparing marine troops to other troops is pointless because there's no guarantee that that will be the matchup.

Also, i was talking about hellblasters specifically having gakky range.

If you're talking about a specific unit and not the general range band of an army maybe you should clarify that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not going anti-horde. I'm going anti-xeno. Very different.

Are you going anti-reading comprehension too? Because I keep talking about how YOUR OPPONENT will need different tools than JUST weapons that hard counter Primaris (excluding Dark Eldar...apparently) and how that softens any hard counter list (that isn't being tailored against you) and you keep talking about how you load up your list.

I'm not confident that's going to happen. Again, why would anyone load up on weapons that only work vs a narrow range of lists? What do you think people should bring other than 2 damage spam?

Probably because knight spam isn't turning into a "narrow range of lists" but a "common target you need tools for".

Are any of those tools ranged weapons? Maybe volcano cannons? I've looked at the lascannon math vs ik. Its soul-crushing.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
High damage at doesn't even work well vs iks. Why would i rely on it against anyone other than ig?

High damage works against large multi-wound models in general. Why would you waste the entire game trying to strip off 24 wounds with S5, D2 weapons?

You clearly haven't seen the math behind Disintegrators.

My point was there are tools specifically designed to put high numbers of wounds on Knights at the same time, why would anyone (who isn't Dark Eldar at least) only load up for anti-horde when there is a better tool for the job?

It's bad target priority to use weapons this way.,

Well you'd think. Take the math behind a Assault Cannon Razorback or Autocannon Pred for example. Neither do a lot of wounds in terms of damage stat, yet they're a better choice a lot of the time. Why is that?

How about instead of claiming I'm wrong, show me evidence I'm wrong so I can change my mind or we can keep going in circles about how anti-tank weapons aren't good against tanks.

Okay. Let's say its about 40 pts to field a marine lascannon via a devastator or predator.

We can say knights are rocking 4++, since they can have anywhere from 5++ to 3++.

Each lascannon shot inflicts about 0.78 damage to an IK.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 1.03 damage to a ravager.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 1.29 damage to a leman russ.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 0.78 damage to a venom.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 1.62 damage to a primaris marine, which means it one shots them more often than not.

Even the lascannon is better vs primaris than these other targets.

That's a lot of points being spent to do relatively little vs both IKs and Xenos.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. Let's say its about 40 pts to field a marine lascannon via a devastator or predator.

We can say knights are rocking 4++, since they can have anywhere from 5++ to 3++.

Each lascannon shot inflicts about 0.78 damage to an IK.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 1.03 damage to a ravager.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 1.29 damage to a leman russ.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 0.78 damage to a venom.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 1.62 damage to a primaris marine, which means it one shots them more often than not.

Even the lascannon is better vs primaris than these other targets.

That's a lot of points being spent to do relatively little vs both IKs and Xenos.

How many points are each of those wounds worth? That is the correct metric.

0.78 damage on a 400 pt IK is worth 13 pts.

1.03 damage on a ravager is about 12.5 pts.

1.28 on leman russ is 15.4 pts.

0.78 on a venom is about 14.3 pts.

1.62 on a hellblaster is 26 pts.

1.62 on a DW intercessor is 16.2 pts.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. Let's say its about 40 pts to field a marine lascannon via a devastator or predator.

We can say knights are rocking 4++, since they can have anywhere from 5++ to 3++.

Each lascannon shot inflicts about 0.78 damage to an IK.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 1.03 damage to a ravager.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 1.29 damage to a leman russ.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 0.78 damage to a venom.

Each lascannon shot inflicts 1.62 damage to a primaris marine, which means it one shots them more often than not.

Even the lascannon is better vs primaris than these other targets.

That's a lot of points being spent to do relatively little vs both IKs and Xenos.

How many points are each of those wounds worth? That is the correct metric.

This.

Additionally, I'm not seeing comparisons with the low damage weapons that are being touted (Autocannons for example). In a vaccum this is definitely a list of numbers, but where' the comparison to one of the weapons (save Dissies, we all know they're good and are the exception but not the rule)?

I'm sure the other weapons are inferior vs IK, but my point is that people shouldn't be trying to shoot IKs to begin with. At least, that's my take away. Take advantage of their mediocre shooting.

Marines suck at fielding autocannons, so I'm not sure how to cost that, honestly. Tomorrow I'll dig out my IG codex and use a HWT or something.

If anything your points show how 'Single Shot High Damage' guns are a bit too effective against middle ground infantry when compared against knights (Which they should be great against) and to an extent, vehicles.

It's a similar problem how a high volume of AP -1 fire is better than a few high AP shots against knights.

remove 3++ pls.

I computed the knight with 4++, not 3++. I don't even want to know the 3++ case.

Martel732 wrote:
0.78 damage on a 400 pt IK is worth 13 pts.

1.03 damage on a ravager is about 12.5 pts.

1.28 on leman russ is 15.4 pts.

0.78 on a venom is about 14.3 pts.

1.62 on a hellblaster is 26 pts.

1.62 on a DW intercessor is 16.2 pts.

I feel like your padding the number a bit by using a hell blaster their it would be like getting lascannon devastators with no bullet catchers and pointing out how expensive it is when they die.

Hellblasters have no bullet catchers. It's a legit number. They give up points REALLY fast.

Martel732 wrote:
Hellblasters have no bullet catchers. It's a legit number. They give up points REALLY fast.

Only if they're being focused down, which is something important about them, a Hellblaster CANNOT be the scariest thing on the map. if iut's your hardest hitting weapon then yeah you screwed. IMHO if you're using it as your primary heavy guns you've messed up your list and hellblasters are best used to crush a few ranks of elite enemy infantry, termies etc.

BrianDavion wrote:
30 inch range for basic troops guns suck? ...... are you high?Or are you just running your Marines without support? I don't mean running soup eaither, I mean just what I said SUPPORT, transports, tanks, air cover, artillery etc.

Well unless he has changed playing style is golden standard is "can tac squad with missile launcher and flamer do the job?" That's how it generally went with arguments. "But tacticals with missile launchers suck vs it. It's broken!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
If anything your points show how 'Single Shot High Damage' guns are a bit too effective against middle ground infantry when compared against knights (Which they should be great against) and to an extent, vehicles.

It's a similar problem how a high volume of AP -1 fire is better than a few high AP shots against knights.

remove 3++ pls.

That 3++ is pretty darn rare. 4 games and I have yet to get it. Albeit not helped that I have the warlord trait on castellan and that's mouth watering CP price but then again even 4++ is rare for me. Generally what happens is somebody shoots questoris, I pop the strategem. Some damage. Then rest of guns go elsewhere and I'm left with 5++.