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I think Centurions are absolutely overcosted. I actually like the idea of an SM army built around that piece of fluff where Iron Hands Assault Centurions drill through the side of an "impenetrable" fortress and crack it wide open. Say, two or three squads of them, possibly in LRs.

Sadly that's not to be. This is one of the few units where I think the rules are just fine, and the points cost is the real problem.

Xeno,
Fine, lets do it your way. Dev Cents vs BL/BL WW
GC/ML:
H:4 S5 D1/Dd3 + H:d3 S8 AP-2 Dd3
vs
H:2 S8 Dd6 + ... nothing

Or, more closely related:
LC/ML:
H:2 S9 AP-3 Dd6 + H:d3 S8 AP-2 Dd3
vs
H:2 S8 AP-4 Dd6

Either way, you're looking at *dramatically* more firepower on the DevCents than the WW. Certainly not worth the premium they pay today, but definitely too much to consider a price point below the WW.

As for 36" vs 48", try 36" on the QuadLas Pred sometime, to see the difference. Even LC-hugging Tacs will notice the difference in many games. CH and WW are not the only platforms that take Brightlances.

Bharring wrote:
Xeno,
Fine, lets do it your way. Dev Cents vs BL/BL WW
GC/ML:
H:8 S5 D1/Dd3 + H:d3 S8 AP-2 Dd3
vs
H:2 S8 Dd6 + ... nothing

Or, more closely related:
GC/ML:
H:2 S9 AP-3 Dd6 + H:d3 S8 AP-2 Dd3
vs
H:2 S8 AP-4 Dd6

Either way, you're looking at *dramatically* more firepower on the DevCents than the WW. Certainly not worth the premium they pay today, but definitely too much to consider a price point below the WW.

As for 36" vs 48", try 36" on the QuadLas Pred sometime, to see the difference. Even LC-hugging Tacs will notice the difference in many games. CH and WW are not the only platforms that take Brightlances.

Where are you getting H8 from a GC is Heavy 4?

Oh, wow, my bad. I was thinking it was a pair, like the other weapons.

That does bring it back into line a bit more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That firepower is still a ton better on the DevCent, even with the GC corrected.

Sorry for my mistake.

Bharring wrote:
Xeno,
Fine, lets do it your way. Dev Cents vs BL/BL WW
GC/ML:
H:8 S5 D1/Dd3 + H:d3 S8 AP-2 Dd3
vs
H:2 S8 Dd6 + ... nothing

Or, more closely related:
GC/ML:
H:2 S9 AP-3 Dd6 + H:d3 S8 AP-2 Dd3
vs
H:2 S8 AP-4 Dd6

Either way, you're looking at *dramatically* more firepower on the DevCents than the WW. Certainly not worth the premium they pay today, but definitely too much to consider a price point below the WW.

As for 36" vs 48", try 36" on the QuadLas Pred sometime, to see the difference. Even LC-hugging Tacs will notice the difference in many games. CH and WW are not the only platforms that take Brightlances.

The dev cent should have more firepower - he costs more. Plus he has half the wounds - no invo 1/3 the mobility.

Something you guys need to understand is. Space marines does not mean it needs to be worse at everything compared to xenos races.

Where do you take bright lances? The only other place you should take it is a siamhan vyper. No where else does it make sense.

Bharring wrote:
Oh, wow, my bad. I was thinking it was a pair, like the other weapons.

That does bring it back into line a bit more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That firepower is still a ton better on the DevCent, even with the GC corrected.

Sorry for my mistake.

Also why are we compairing to war walkers?
They have 2.5 times the movement and double the wounds of a single dev cent?

What else should I put on my Falcon? Oh, wait, I shouldn't take Falcons? Thanks for the tip!

What Heavy do you put on your Guardians when you use them for backfield camping?

Ever needed more AT and had a couple Wraithlord hardpoints open?

Ever been Uthwe with enough points left over for a Vyper?

Sometimes, I want two Serpents. But don't want to run them both Shuriken Cannon Spam.

You do realize Dev Cents aren't the only unit that can take Lascannons, right (that was sarcastic)?

Back to the topic at hand - yes, the Dev Cent does cost more. You're arguing that it should cost *less* than a WW. That is what I'm disagreeing with.

He does have half the wounds, but he's got half again the firepower. Remember all those times you would yell and shout that Reapers were better than Marines with ablaitive wounds because you get half again the firepower instead of *twice* the wounds? Well it's the same thing. Except, in this case, it's a 2+ vs a 4+/5++. So even with half the wounds, more survivable vs small arms. A 5++ woudn't even take effect on a Cent until AP-4 or better were in use - and that's *out* of cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WW do have double the movement. Although anything but Shuriken then fires at -1 to hit. Dev Cents don't suffer that penalty.

They have double the wounds, but a 4+/5++. So less survivable to small arms, moderately more survivable to the big stuff. A *ton* less dakka, typically.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Something you guys need to understand is. Space marines does not mean it needs to be worse at everything compared to xenos races.

I think you just meant to type Eldar/DE, not Xenos as a whole.

Bharring wrote:
What else should I put on my Falcon? Oh, wait, I shouldn't take Falcons? Thanks for the tip!

What Heavy do you put on your Guardians when you use them for backfield camping?

Ever needed more AT and had a couple Wraithlord hardpoints open?

Ever been Uthwe with enough points left over for a Vyper?

Sometimes, I want two Serpents. But don't want to run them both Shuriken Cannon Spam.

You do realize Dev Cents aren't the only unit that can take Lascannons, right (that was sarcastic)?

Back to the topic at hand - yes, the Dev Cent does cost more. You're arguing that it should cost *less* than a WW. That is what I'm disagreeing with.

He does have half the wounds, but he's got half again the firepower. Remember all those times you would yell and shout that Reapers were better than Marines with ablaitive wounds because you get half again the firepower instead of *twice* the wounds? Well it's the same thing. Except, in this case, it's a 2+ vs a 4+/5++. So even with half the wounds, more survivable vs small arms. A 5++ woudn't even take effect on a Cent until AP-4 or better were in use - and that's *out* of cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WW do have double the movement. Although anything but Shuriken then fires at -1 to hit. Dev Cents don't suffer that penalty.

They have double the wounds, but a 4+/5++. So less survivable to small arms, moderately more survivable to the big stuff. A *ton* less dakka, typically.

Also are warwalkers considered competitive or even comp casual viable?

I haven't really heard an counter to my custodes comparison yet?

On the other hand, Space Marines does not need to be stronger, either. So perhaps we should aim to be "as strong as"?

Bharring wrote:
On the other hand, Space Marines does not need to be stronger, either. So perhaps we should aim to be "as strong as"?

That is my aim.

I started by trying to give the cent a fair base cost. Do you have an issue with my base cost? If so - what is it?

You seem to take issue with my idea that LC should also be 5 points off. LC and BL are equivalent imo - we can agree to disagree on that. Do you have issue with the base price?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
What else should I put on my Falcon? Oh, wait, I shouldn't take Falcons? Thanks for the tip!

What Heavy do you put on your Guardians when you use them for backfield camping?

Ever needed more AT and had a couple Wraithlord hardpoints open?

Ever been Uthwe with enough points left over for a Vyper?

Sometimes, I want two Serpents. But don't want to run them both Shuriken Cannon Spam.

You do realize Dev Cents aren't the only unit that can take Lascannons, right (that was sarcastic)?

Back to the topic at hand - yes, the Dev Cent does cost more. You're arguing that it should cost *less* than a WW. That is what I'm disagreeing with.

He does have half the wounds, but he's got half again the firepower. Remember all those times you would yell and shout that Reapers were better than Marines with ablaitive wounds because you get half again the firepower instead of *twice* the wounds? Well it's the same thing. Except, in this case, it's a 2+ vs a 4+/5++. So even with half the wounds, more survivable vs small arms. A 5++ woudn't even take effect on a Cent until AP-4 or better were in use - and that's *out* of cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WW do have double the movement. Although anything but Shuriken then fires at -1 to hit. Dev Cents don't suffer that penalty.

They have double the wounds, but a 4+/5++. So less survivable to small arms, moderately more survivable to the big stuff. A *ton* less dakka, typically.

Also are warwalkers considered competitive or even comp casual viable?

I haven't really heard an counter to my custodes comparison yet?

They are casual but playable - Cimson hunters are better platforms for everything WW do well. Same as Falcons. A falcon with a bright lance is almost the same cost as a crimson hunter with 2 bright lances. Crimson with 2x BL is 5 more points than a flacon with 1 BL and a SC and add crystal targeting matrix is the exact same cost (CTM alows you to move and shoot the closest target with no penalty IMO it's mandatory on a falcon and is it's best build) Now the only difference is t7 vs t6-1 to hit and 1 is trading a BL for a SC. I think we know which one is better.

Crimson hunters hit on 2's naturally so they are 3+ to hit with heavy weapons.

The one thing WW do well is they are a unit so - they take advantage of guide really well. This makes them a good comparison for Cents. If i can give you an idea...If you take 6 WW with star cannons vs a space marine player - you with obliterate them.

Yes, I think the base cost should probably be about 50ppm, or somewhere around there. Even without discounted weapons. That's still 30ppm cheaper than it is today.

No argument that CH are amazing. But does one unit in another codex really decide the price of Lascannons across the entire Marine dex? Most of your arguments are rules specific to the CH, not the Brightlance itself.

Bharring wrote:
Yes, I think the base cost should probably be about 50ppm, or somewhere around there. Even without discounted weapons. That's still 30ppm cheaper than it is today.

No argument that CH are amazing. But does one unit in another codex really decide the price of Lascannons across the entire Marine dex? Most of your arguments are rules specific to the CH, not the Brightlance itself.

Yeah and if GW made a fix like that in CA I think people could start playing them casually. 115-120 range with 2 las and a missle launcher is still pretty bad though. A razor with 2 LC is 120 points and generally considered to be trash. It's even tougher than the dreadnaught in my comparison on the front page. 128 for a 2 LC HKM and storm bolter razor. 10 wounds instead of 3.

Offense is clearly more pricey than defense but if something is 3x harder to kill at 120 points but has 1 less heavy - about a 20 point drop seems reasonable thats an 18% drop in points to lose 2/3 the defense and gain 1/3 the firepower. Not to even mention the loss of movement stat - which does not mater for each of these units really.

OR we could just give them 6 wounds. Like a Broadside and leave them at about 120-130.

Since no one has pointed it out that I saw and several people discussing Deep Strike options, Cents do have access to Strike From the Shadows.

The Newman wrote:
Since no one has pointed it out that I saw and several people discussing Deep Strike options, Cents do have access to Strike From the Shadows.

That is infiltration...waste of CP if you don't go first really. Most of the units I compared cents to had natural deep strike ability except for wraithgaurd which have actauly deep strike stratagem or the good old trust wave serpent which is about 1/3 the cost of a landraider and doesn't suck.

The wraithgaurd example is really funny because it has 3W T6 3+ instead of 3W T5 2+ - better movement - better close combat ability - can fall back and shoot. Plus can be taken in 10 man squads to maximize buffs like protect / conceal / fortune.


Their base cost is currently 1/3 of a centurion. LOL. 4 wraithgaurd with wraithcannons currently costs about 1 centurian with 2xlas and rocket build. Getting approx. 4x the wounds and 1.5x the firepower. It is quite literally the most insane points discrepancy I have ever seen in gaming. The crazy thing is WG aren't even a very good unit lol.

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Oh, wow, my bad. I was thinking it was a pair, like the other weapons.

That does bring it back into line a bit more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That firepower is still a ton better on the DevCent, even with the GC corrected.

Sorry for my mistake.

Also why are we compairing to war walkers?
They have 2.5 times the movement and double the wounds of a single dev cent?

I have absolutely no idea why Bharring and Xeno have been arguing about this comparison throughout the thread, both units are rubbish at present.

I didnt read all 3 pages, but im sure the Wraithknight is one of the most over costed units in None FW 40k, well over 80pts overcosted.

I don't think you can expect every 'heavy but slow damage outputter' to be able to deepstrike, and I personally believe that is one of the design problems of 8e.
Although, with that being said the poor big boi does need to be looked at. Either make him durable for those points (A slow walking unit that can soak bullets) or reduce him by at least 20 points.

I'd rather them keep the points and instead get the following rules:
- Reduces AP of all weaponry by half (Minimum 0)
- All damage received is reduced by 1 (Minimum 1)

Lets them survive the hail of plasma fire and tank up against pretty much every weapon. One-shot-kill weapons are still effective.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I didnt read all 3 pages, but im sure the Wraithknight is one of the most over costed units in None FW 40k, well over 80pts overcosted.

Xenomancer is synonymous with Hyperbole, iirc the most overcosted unit of the game is either the Stompa or one of the many titans available.

As an aside I'm curious though, the apothecary can resurrect < INFANTRY > units right, how's he go with the Centurions? I'd imagine it'd be the best unit he can resurrect for points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Banville wrote:
GW have deliberately done this to Centurions so nobody will play or buy them and they can be removed from the collective gaming consciousness, thereby preventing eye-nausea and involuntary bouts of disbelieving laughter at their sheer ridiculousness.

I've never understood the hatred of their look. It's like 40k meets exo-squad. Giant suits with lots of guns...This is not something I would expect complaints from. Really I think it's butt hurtness mostly. Ether from space marine players that are sad terminators suck - or people who got ruined by cent stars in 7th.

I think it's more people who refuse to accept anything new past 3rd or 4th edition or so.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Banville wrote:
GW have deliberately done this to Centurions so nobody will play or buy them and they can be removed from the collective gaming consciousness, thereby preventing eye-nausea and involuntary bouts of disbelieving laughter at their sheer ridiculousness.

I've never understood the hatred of their look. It's like 40k meets exo-squad. Giant suits with lots of guns...This is not something I would expect complaints from. Really I think it's butt hurtness mostly. Ether from space marine players that are sad terminators suck - or people who got ruined by cent stars in 7th.

I think it's more people who refuse to accept anything new past 3rd or 4th edition or so.

They're some of the worst looking models in recent history from a dark time for GW, right up there with the mono pose plastic daemon prince. It's not surprising that people don't like them and I would be happy if they left them as an index unit in the future.

Yep. they must have really been sick of Grav Cents...

7th edition, my star unit was 3 Cents, a Pod, and a tech marine with hunters eye.

now its the same points, minus the Pod, minus the Techy...

Ice_can wrote:
I don't know how anyone can defend Dev cent points costs when a Custode trooper is 40ppm with +1WS effectively same BS, S, T, W, +1A and a 4++.
They highlight how rediculous Dev cents and Crisis suit points costs are.

Ice_can wrote:

I haven't really heard an counter to my custodes comparison yet?

Not arguing for or against your point. Just correcting your point cost. Custodes troopers have mandatory wargear that costs points, making them a minimum of 52ppm.

Always kinda wanted to stick 5 of them in a Crusader for the lulz. Or 6 in a Spartan.

Bizzarely costed unit. They'd be a prime choice for a shoot-twice Stratagem. What other unit can get 18 S8+ D6 Damage shots? Falchion I guess?

The ability to move and shoot heavy weapons isn’t all that great when you only move 4”. That movement is doing nothing for you. It was useful when that movement was used to get out of a Drop Pod. Now you are just better off heading them for long range and not moving them at all.

Arson Fire wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I don't know how anyone can defend Dev cent points costs when a Custode trooper is 40ppm with +1WS effectively same BS, S, T, W, +1A and a 4++.
They highlight how rediculous Dev cents and Crisis suit points costs are.

Ice_can wrote:

I haven't really heard an counter to my custodes comparison yet?

Not arguing for or against your point. Just correcting your point cost. Custodes troopers have mandatory wargear that costs points, making them a minimum of 52ppm.

And dev cents have a minimum weapon cost of 30 points which makes them 110 points each? Or almost twice the cost of a Custode. Whatever GW was smoking was strong that day.

Not saying that centurions are good, or that people are wrong here. But is it strange that I would like to run them in my army. 330pts for a unit of lascannons doesn't seem bad, for my faction.

Surely the most over costed unit in the game at the moment is the Stompa?

Karol wrote:
Not saying that centurions are good, or that people are wrong here. But is it strange that I would like to run them in my army. 330pts for a unit of lascannons doesn't seem bad, for my faction.

the 6 lascannons on 3 cents is 420 points sure you still want to run them?

Ice_can wrote:
And dev cents have a minimum weapon cost of 30 points which makes them 110 points each? Or almost twice the cost of a Custode. Whatever GW was smoking was strong that day.

Indeed!
My point was merely that listing stuff at their base model cost can be misleading. A more extreme example being dark reapers at 5ppm, before wargear.

Arson Fire wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
And dev cents have a minimum weapon cost of 30 points which makes them 110 points each? Or almost twice the cost of a Custode. Whatever GW was smoking was strong that day.

Indeed!
My point was merely that listing stuff at their base model cost can be misleading. A more extreme example being dark reapers at 5ppm, before wargear.

Reapers are wierdly costed. I thought they were more than that though, they should atleast cost more than a SOB with whome they share a decent chunk of their statline with.