Useless weapons?

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**vipoid**

Grenade Launcher - absolute garbage.

Autocannon - I've actually been using these a bit more since they got a price cut. Somewhat niche but could help a lot against DE vehicles.

Multi-laser - Inferior to the Heavy Bolter but costs more points.

Heavy Flamer - It can be nasty if it hits but also damn expensive.

Plasma Cannon - Use with caution. It's not significantly better than a regular plasmagun, except that an overheat will cost you a whole vehicle.

**grouchoben**

The Russ' Battlecannon is an insanely good gun. I can't believe you've got the cahoonas to offer it up on this thread, Kommisar!

I run it on co-axial Conquerers with an Old Grudges warlord to delete heavies. Each Russ run that way does 5.25 damage to a 5++ knight, for example.

Or shoot it at MEQ, because it has decent RoF. A standard Russ with no buffs (how often do you see one of those?) kills 2 hellblasters a turn.

Each Battlecannon costs 25pts. I mean, just how good do you want a 25pt gun to be?

**Stux**

grouchoben wrote:
The Russ' Battlecannon is an insanely good gun. I can't believe you've got the cahoonas to offer it up on this thread, Kommisar!

I run it on co-axial Conquerers with an Old Grudges warlord to delete heavies. Each Russ run that way does 5.25 damage to a 5++ knight, for example.

Or shoot it at MEQ, because it has decent RoF. A standard Russ with no buffs (how often do you see one of those?) kills 2 hellblasters a turn.

Each Battlecannon costs 25pts. I mean, just how good do you want a 25pt gun to be?

You can't look at a gun in a vacuum and decide if it's good basically. The Battlecannon is amazing because it's on a Russ. Cheap T8 platform, no negative to hit when moving, and shooting twice. That's incredible!

The rapid fire Battlecannon though, despite a better statline, is rather lackluster. Because it's on a Knight so doesn't get grinding advance, and takes the space of a better gun.

**SemperMortis**

Kommisar wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Kommisar wrote:
Battlecannons are terrible. They're in a bad spot of only wounding most of what you want to be shooting them at 50% of the time, only have ap2 and swingy damage. Catachan plasma commander tanks put out way more firepower and now give up less itc points if you care about that. I'll take a guaranteed D2 over even D6 damage any day.

That is rather silly. A D6 has a 1/6th chance to do less then 2 damange, a 1/6th chance to do 2 damage and a 2/3rd chance to do more...up to 3 times as much. I'll take D6 over D2 any day of the week

It's guaranteed damage. I know the math but random damage will always fail you when you need it.

I'll make you a deal, you take my Killkannon for 15pts which is S7 AP-2 Range 24 D6 shots and that all important Flat 2 damage but it hits on 5s and 6s and I'll take your 22pt Battlecannon with 3 times the range, S8 and D3 damage and it hits on 4s and finally can fire twice a turn. Sound good?

I didn't think so.

**vipoid**

Battle Cannons are fine. I'd actually say they're one of the better Leman Russ weapons.

**Stux**

vipoid wrote:
Battle Cannons are fine. I'd actually say they're one of the better Leman Russ weapons.

Mathematically they are significantly better than most Russ weapons. Only really the Punisher and a couple of the Forgeworld ones compete to be honest.

But again, it's really more down to the efficiency of the Russ platform than anything.

**roflmajog**

If you want to talk about useless weapons try the aeldari blade. It is only available on a useless unit (storm guardians) and it is worse than the other weapon they have available in every scenario while costing the same points.
They have a single attack each and they can either get rerolls to hit from aeldari blade or an extra attack from the chainsword.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Storm Guardians honestly just need to be deleted as a unit entry.

**Elbows**

Guardians need to revert to one unit entry is what needs to happen. Equip as needed.

Bad Eldar weapons:

-Scatter Laser (Shuriken Cannon is better 95% of the time)

-Psychic weapons with no AP at all...despite being able to penetrate Leman Russ tanks in the past...

-Starcannons. I'm not convinced they're terrible, but their stat line never encourages me to take them for some reason.

-All of their artillery pieces are garbage and incredibly expensive compared to other armies (compare a Vibro Cannon at twice the cost of a Conversion Beamer....zero contest)

-Deathspinners on Warp Spiders are super lazy designed and don't offer anything good enough to justify taking the unit. They also have no connection to the original weapon as it was designed/described.

Very few genuine turds, but just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. The Scatter Laser should have been changed to revert to its old style, make it Heavy 6, Strength 5, no AP or something similar. Give it a reason to exist rather than being a slightly worse Shuriken Cannon.

The psychic weapons suck, but they're also strapped to Psykers who originally were competent combatants and now are sacks of jelly waiting to be squashed by anyone who can muster the strength to form a fist. So, it's probably expected.

**Biasn**

Tesla Cannon and Annihilator are useless crap.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Thematically, though, Storm Guardians probably make the least amount of sense for fluff and crunch.

**Elbows**

Yep, but then I'm also all for guardians not being as good as they are now (that doesn't work fluff and crunch either). I just dont' see any need for the unit to have been split into two datasheets.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Elbows wrote:
Yep, but then I'm also all for guardians not being as good as they are now (that doesn't work fluff and crunch either). I just dont' see any need for the unit to have been split into two datasheets.

A quick militia for defense and their lesser equipment because of it makes sense.

Giving them melee weapons is beyond silly for that kinda reason though.

**vipoid**

Bad Dark Eldar weapons:

- Any ranged weapon with Poison (outside of a few Artefacts). These were decent back in 5th but have gotten steadily worse in every edition since. I don't mind them as basic weapons. The issue is that the assault versions, the heavy versions, the vehicle versions etc. all basically use the same profile.

- Blast Pistols. They cost more than Inferno Pistols in spite of being outright worse.

- Power Swords. Always amazing on S3 armies...

- Hexrifle. A Heavy sniper rifle that's only available on melee units. It's not even a good sniper rifle.

- Liquifier Gun. Still S3, still costs more than the Ossefactor (a much better weapon).

- Heat Lance. This is one of those weapons that didn't convert well into 8th. S6 was already poor on an anti-vehicle weapon, but the change in melta rule means it no longer gets any help actually wounding vehicles with it.

- Archite Glaive. Same penalty to hit as a Power Fist or Thunder Hammer, but only gives +2 Strength and does 1 damage.

- Flesh Gauntlet. A 6+ to wound inflicts a Mortal Wound (except against vehicles). Great! Except that it's a S+0 AP0 weapon on a S3 model.

- Mindphase Gauntlet. Same as the Flesh Gauntlet except that, instead of inflicting a mortal wound on a 6+, it just has Damage 2.

Biasn wrote:
Tesla Cannon and Annihilator are useless crap.

Yeah, it's disappointing that the codex did nothing to address this.

**Elbows**

I'd disagree a bit, only because it's entirely possible that Guardians carrying a pistol/sword, etc. may well have been close-combat Aspect Warriors in the past (hell, perhaps a thousand years ago). Perhaps that's something they're comfortable with?

My guardian squads are built to a 2nd edition style, so they feature shuriken catapults, officers with close combat weapon and pistol, and two special weapons (not use in 8th), and then a platform supporting.

**vipoid**

Elbows wrote:
I'd disagree a bit, only because it's entirely possible that Guardians carrying a pistol/sword, etc. may well have been close-combat Aspect Warriors in the past (hell, perhaps a thousand years ago). Perhaps that's something they're comfortable with?

It still seems strange to equip your citizens with melee weapons instead of rifles.

I mean, I could easily see the Imperium doing that sort of thing with Conscripts, simply because they're expendable and openly treated as such.

However, I'd expect a dwindling race like Eldar to try and keep their Guardians out of harm's way. Leave melee for the eldar units that are better trained and better equipped for it.

**Crimson**

vipoid wrote:

It still seems strange to equip your citizens with melee weapons instead of rifles.

It is also strange to equip your citizen militia with rifles that have about the same range whether you shoot with them or throw them at the enemy.

**vipoid**

Crimson wrote:
It is also strange to equip your citizen militia with rifles that have about the same range whether you shoot with them or throw them at the enemy.

Yeah, that's also puzzling.

If anything, I'd expect Guardians to be wielding long-range (albeit relatively weak) rifles, and manning the heavy weapon platforms.

**Elbows**

vipoid wrote:
Elbows wrote:
I'd disagree a bit, only because it's entirely possible that Guardians carrying a pistol/sword, etc. may well have been close-combat Aspect Warriors in the past (hell, perhaps a thousand years ago). Perhaps that's something they're comfortable with?

It still seems strange to equip your citizens with melee weapons instead of rifles.

I mean, I could easily see the Imperium doing that sort of thing with Conscripts, simply because they're expendable and openly treated as such.

However, I'd expect a dwindling race like Eldar to try and keep their Guardians out of harm's way. Leave melee for the eldar units that are better trained and better equipped for it.

Sure, but remember the original model line of "Space Elves" were detached from what would eventually become the Eldar background and fluff. 2nd edition and all of the close-combat armed Guardian models were really intended as Space Elf pirates...and thus pistols and laser-sabres and gak were cool. I also understand close combat guardians back when Black Guardians were a thing. I get "that". I agree that more or less Storm Guardians don't need to exist. I can just think of ways to justify them on the table if I needed to.

**vipoid**

Elbows wrote:

Sure, but remember the original model line of "Space Elves" were detached from what would eventually become the Eldar background and fluff. 2nd edition and all of the close-combat armed Guardian models were really intended as Space Elf pirates...and thus pistols and laser-sabres and gak were cool. I also understand close combat guardians back when Black Guardians were a thing. I get "that". I agree that more or less Storm Guardians don't need to exist. I can just think of ways to justify them on the table if I needed to.

Ah, I actually wasn't aware of that.

That's very interesting.

**Lord Perversor**

vipoid wrote:
Elbows wrote:

Sure, but remember the original model line of "Space Elves" were detached from what would eventually become the Eldar background and fluff. 2nd edition and all of the close-combat armed Guardian models were really intended as Space Elf pirates...and thus pistols and laser-sabres and gak were cool. I also understand close combat guardians back when Black Guardians were a thing. I get "that". I agree that more or less Storm Guardians don't need to exist. I can just think of ways to justify them on the table if I needed to.

Ah, I actually wasn't aware of that.

That's very interesting.

It was somewhere between 2nd and 3rd when GW choose to reduce the Guardians weapons to Shuriken catapults only (thay had Las rifles choices too in the past)

In fact in 2nd edition Shuriken catapults was the most expensive choice as they were the equivalent to Storm bolters with an extra -1 to armor saves

**Crimson**

I am still bitter that they nerfed the shuriken catapult from an awesome weapon to useless trash.

**Arachnofiend**

Pour one out for gauss flayers. Gone from a swiss army knife that can do effective damage against pretty much any target to a glorified bolter in an edition where bolters are really bad.

**the_scotsman**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
All Multi-Meltas are 100% useless.

Yeah I gotta agree with this one. I don't think there's a single platform where I would willingly take one.

I take 'em on my Devil Dog (or bane wolf, I forget which one is the melta tank) but only because it's basically identical to the main gun, so it synergizes nicely. It tends to work out pretty well.

**stonehorse**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
All Multi-Meltas are 100% useless.

Yeah I gotta agree with this one. I don't think there's a single platform where I would willingly take one.

This. Multimeltas have converted very poorly from their stats back in 2nd edition. Back then it was a small blast, I honestly think part of the solution to fix it would be to make it heavy 2, or give it 'if the firing model didn't move it gains heavy 2'.

My Contemptor Dreadnought almost killed a Trygon with it's Multimelta once... other than that the weapon looks good.

**Sgt. Cortez**

Melter and Multimelter are just too expensive, their stats are okay imo. You could easily bring down the melter to its former 10points and it would still not be overpowered due to 1shot/12".

**vipoid**

Regarding meltas, they're a little expensive, but I don't think that's the main issue. IMO, the main problems are:

1) Lack of ways to reliably get into melta range. With deep strike having to start outside melta range and transports having to be stationary for passengers to disembark, there are few reliable ways to get meltas into optimum range of vehicles.

2) When you're not in melta range, there's really no benefit of even having meltas, compared with just using Lascannons - which have better strength, slightly worse AP, do the same damage and have 4x the range.

Regarding multi-meltas, I think the problem is one of range. A 24" range Heavy weapon is dicey enough (with vehicles now getting -1 to hit), but in this case it needs to get within 12" to be better than just using a Lascannon.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Pour one out for gauss flayers. Gone from a swiss army knife that can do effective damage against pretty much any target to a glorified bolter in an edition where bolters are really bad.

Anyone that thinks Gauss was really that good never played Necrons.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Yeah, Gauss was only really good in 3rd and 4th ed, from when you can destroy vehicles with a single 6 on a glance. If you throw enough dice (and you will with necron warriors), you can kill a tank in a round of shooting.
Ever since they changed that gauss stopped being dangerous.

The problem though is that GW doesn't seem to realize that; the reason why traditionally necrons didn't have as much access to heavy weapons like the other factions was because gauss could potentially one shot vehicles. Now gauss can't one shot vehicles and necrons still don't have common access to heavy weapons.

**Kap'n Krump**

Billagio wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Well for Orkz, we have a couple of guns that aren't worth taking in 8th. Here let me list them.

Big Shoota, Rokkit, Deff Gun, Deff Kannon, Lobba, Zzap Gun, Kustom Mega Blasta, Kustom Mega Slugga, Burna, Kill Kannon, Smasha Gun, Traktor Kannon, Bubblechukka, Snazzgunz, Grotzooka, Rack of Rokkitz, Deffstorm mega shoota, Liftadroppa, Supa Kannon, Shokk Attack Gun, Kombi Rokkit, Kombi Skorcha, Tellyporta Blasta, Supa-Gatler and Dakka Gunz....to name a few

This hurts me on a personal level

That's because the truth hurts. :(

Though, I disagree with Kombi Skorchas, i take those frequently. Other than that I have no objections.

And he should have added deff kannons.