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With the IoM weapons, a lot of it is just suffering from "Plasma Gun is better".

You could take a Melta Gun for heavy vehicles. Or you can take a Plasma Gun for heavy vehicles. And light vehicles. And heavy infantry. And light infantry. And anything else.

Why take a MultiMelta when you can take a Plasma Gun.

Why take the Flamer for light infantry, when you can take a Plasma Gun...

Now, sometimes you need range, which a Plasma Gun doesn't give you. For that, there's the Lascannon.

Relic blade is the most useless weapon in the game.

I get that the Relic Blade isn't a meta-changer, but how can you say it's more useless than the:
-Aeldari Blade
-Pulse Carbine
-Scout Shotgun

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, Gauss was only really good in 3rd and 4th ed, from when you can destroy vehicles with a single 6 on a glance. If you throw enough dice (and you will with necron warriors), you can kill a tank in a round of shooting.
Ever since they changed that gauss stopped being dangerous.

That's somewhat true, but I think there's another problem as well: Gauss is on too many different weapons.

Gauss has to be useful on a S4 AP5 weapon that's available on cheap(ish) infantry, but also on a S9 AP2 weapon that's only available on expensive single models. (I'm using the pre-8th stats for weapons, since Gauss modifies AP in 8th).

If Gauss is good en masse, then it becomes worthless on the heavy weapons. However, if it's good on those weapons then it'll almost certainly be too strong on the basic infantry weapons.

The saddest thing about the MultiMelta is that the easiest solution is in plain sight. Just look at the model. Notice how it has 2 barrels?
Make that sucker Heavy 2. Problem solved

Missile Launchers are also pretty useless. For roughly the same price, you could just get a Lascannon. It'd be different if the secondary fire mode was even slightly better than just d6 Bolter shots. Make it Ap-1 or S5 or a full 6 shots. Something better than what it is as no one will use that mode.
If your aren't using the versatility of the secondary mode, than just get a Lascannon.

-

 Xenomancers wrote:
Relic blade is the most useless weapon in the game.

I see your relic blade and raise you one condemnor boltgun.

It's effectively a stormbolter that only works against psykers.

IoM ML is one of the weird places where the CWE version is strictly better - the secondary fire has AP-1 (and had AP4 last couple editions). With it, it becomes a little more reasonable, but Missile Launchers have been overcosted for a long time.

Bharring wrote:
I get that the Relic Blade isn't a meta-changer, but how can you say it's more useless than the:
-Aeldari Blade
-Pulse Carbine
-Scout Shotgun

Those are free options - A relic blade is 21 points. Same cost as a thunder-hammer.

Bharring wrote:
With the IoM weapons, a lot of it is just suffering from "Plasma Gun is better".

You could take a Melta Gun for heavy vehicles. Or you can take a Plasma Gun for heavy vehicles. And light vehicles. And heavy infantry. And light infantry. And anything else.

Why take a MultiMelta when you can take a Plasma Gun.

Why take the Flamer for light infantry, when you can take a Plasma Gun...

Now, sometimes you need range, which a Plasma Gun doesn't give you. For that, there's the Lascannon.

I mean... This is all true! The funny thing is that Plasma Cannons are kind of trash.

I'd be reluctant to nerf Plasma though, beyond a slight points increase perhaps. I feel instead Melta and Flamer need bringing up

Melta should do 2d6 damage in half range and flamer should do 2d6 hits but max equal to number of models in the target unit.

A.T. wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Relic blade is the most useless weapon in the game.

I see your relic blade and raise you one condemnor boltgun.

It's effectively a stormbolter that only works against psykers.

Sounds like an index weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
IoM ML is one of the weird places where the CWE version is strictly better - the secondary fire has AP-1 (and had AP4 last couple editions). With it, it becomes a little more reasonable, but Missile Launchers have been overcosted for a long time.

Yep. The eldar ones aren't too bad and fill a weird niche in an eldar army 48" firepower if you really need it. Imperial ones is like what the heck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
With the IoM weapons, a lot of it is just suffering from "Plasma Gun is better".

You could take a Melta Gun for heavy vehicles. Or you can take a Plasma Gun for heavy vehicles. And light vehicles. And heavy infantry. And light infantry. And anything else.

Why take a MultiMelta when you can take a Plasma Gun.

Why take the Flamer for light infantry, when you can take a Plasma Gun...

Now, sometimes you need range, which a Plasma Gun doesn't give you. For that, there's the Lascannon.

That is true - the plasma gun is better - but it's not like the plasma gun is OP. That is nonsense to suggest. All imperial weapons need to be bumped to plasma level. Plus the plasma gun really just needs to have it's overheating feature removed. 1/6 chance to kill yourself when you fire it....that part seems to get ignored a lot.

Also - it's supposed to be a rare weapon that can't even be produced anymore but standard AM chaff can spam it. Uhhhh???

Those might be 0 points, but they aren't free:
Aeldari Blade? Costs you a Chainsword. So you give up a 2nd attack to have a 1/6 chance to reroll your one attack...

Relic Blade? Costs like a Thunder Hammer. But hits like a weapon that *doesn't get -1 to hit*. Because it doesn't. Now, you usually want one of the other weapons, but there are upsides to a Powersword with a bunch more oomph and no to-hit penalty.

One is a straight downgrade. The other has distinct upsides over your chosen comparision (although is usually worse). There's a big difference.

Bharring wrote:
I get that the Relic Blade isn't a meta-changer, but how can you say it's more useless than the:
-Aeldari Blade
-Pulse Carbine
-Scout Shotgun

I haven't looked at the first two, but Scout Shotguns are better than Bolters.
1. Assault means, after infiltrating, you can move, run, AND fire.
2. The bonus S5 makes sense since they can move after their deployment

With Scouts there isn't a point to Bolters (where even Tactical Marines are using those better, and the increased range doesn't matter with deployment) or Sniper Rifles (4 points? No thanks). There's a case to be made for CCW and Bolt Pistol, but Shotguns otherwise make sense for how they deploy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Those might be 0 points, but they aren't free:
Aeldari Blade? Costs you a Chainsword. So you give up a 2nd attack to have a 1/6 chance to reroll your one attack...

Relic Blade? Costs like a Thunder Hammer. But hits like a weapon that *doesn't get -1 to hit*. Because it doesn't. Now, you usually want one of the other weapons, but there are upsides to a Powersword with a bunch more oomph and no to-hit penalty.

One is a straight downgrade. The other has distinct upsides over your chosen comparision (although is usually worse). There's a big difference.

The Thunder Hammer has consistent D3 and will would more against things that matter, as otherwise you could've just gone with a regular Power Weapon.

There isn't a case to be made for the Relic Blade when it costs exactly the same as a much better weapon and can only be taken on the same exact platforms.

Bharring wrote:
Those might be 0 points, but they aren't free:
Aeldari Blade? Costs you a Chainsword. So you give up a 2nd attack to have a 1/6 chance to reroll your one attack...

Relic Blade? Costs like a Thunder Hammer. But hits like a weapon that *doesn't get -1 to hit*. Because it doesn't. Now, you usually want one of the other weapons, but there are upsides to a Powersword with a bunch more oomph and no to-hit penalty.

One is a straight downgrade. The other has distinct upsides over your chosen comparision (although is usually worse). There's a big difference.

It's going to do less damage per point in every situation - unless you are mopping up t3 infantry - which a power maul does 4x more efficiently.

Yeah aldari blades suck. Unless weapons hurt a little more when they cost 21 points though. The relic blade should be an 12 point weapon. It's actually identical to a PF in almost every situation.

 Galef wrote:
The saddest thing about the MultiMelta is that the easiest solution is in plain sight. Just look at the model. Notice how it has 2 barrels?
Make that sucker Heavy 2. Problem solved

Missile Launchers are also pretty useless. For roughly the same price, you could just get a Lascannon. It'd be different if the secondary fire mode was even slightly better than just d6 Bolter shots. Make it Ap-1 or S5 or a full 6 shots. Something better than what it is as no one will use that mode.
If your aren't using the versatility of the secondary mode, than just get a Lascannon.

-

I am a big fan of the versatility of the Missile Launcher. A devastator squad with 4 if them can lift a lot of weight. I tend to build my forces to be able to take on all comers, so if I opted for 4 Lascannons and ended up playing against a horde, I'd be kicking myself, same is true if I took Heavy Bolters against a mechanised force.

With the Missile Launcher I have the best of both worlds. Sure it is a jack of all trades, master of none.

Yeah, I think the Missile Launcher fits that role (even better since I have Eldar ones, that little AP -1 is a big deal) very well. As you say, not the best at anything, but versatile and that's what you pay for. I still hate paying 25 points for it...but it is what it is.

 stonehorse wrote:

 Galef wrote:
The saddest thing about the MultiMelta is that the easiest solution is in plain sight. Just look at the model. Notice how it has 2 barrels?
Make that sucker Heavy 2. Problem solved

Missile Launchers are also pretty useless. For roughly the same price, you could just get a Lascannon. It'd be different if the secondary fire mode was even slightly better than just d6 Bolter shots. Make it Ap-1 or S5 or a full 6 shots. Something better than what it is as no one will use that mode.
If your aren't using the versatility of the secondary mode, than just get a Lascannon.

-

I am a big fan of the versatility of the Missile Launcher. A devastator squad with 4 if them can lift a lot of weight. I tend to build my forces to be able to take on all comers, so if I opted for 4 Lascannons and ended up playing against a horde, I'd be kicking myself, same is true if I took Heavy Bolters against a mechanised force.

With the Missile Launcher I have the best of both worlds. Sure it is a jack of all trades, master of none.

Didn't someone do the math and say a squad of 2 Lascannons and 2 Heavy Bolters did more damage against all targets?

Well, not everyone can put half LCs/half HBs in a Tac squad or Guardian squad.

Heavy Bolters are also in a very weird place now that Storm Bolters have been improved.

In 2nd edition a storm bolter was 1 sustain fire die, so from a jam result to 3 shots. A Heavy Bolter was 2 sustained fire dice, and gave anywhere from double jam to 6 shots.

Now the Heavy Bolter is 3 shots, and a Storm Bolter can max 4 (rapid fire 2 at short range).

HB's are pretty good, S5 -1ap is really nice.

No one cares about 2nd edition tho, its a completely different game, its so different it cant even be compare to current 40k.

Bharring wrote:
Well, not everyone can put half LCs/half HBs in a Tac squad or Guardian squad.

We are talking about a Devastator squad, and, if that statistic is true, shows how poor off the Missile Launcher is.

The reaper auto-cannon is totally useless. It can be taken on Terminators, Hellbrute, and Defiler. For the terminators you can get a combi-plasma for the same price. With overcharge it has the same damage potential (4), the important St8, and a better modifier AP-3. Yes you have to be in rapid fire range, but terminators teleport so are almost always in rapid fire range. Also, since the plasma is rapid fire, there is no -1 to hit while moving or teleporting, which the reaper auto-cannon has.

As for the defiler and the hellbrute, both can take other various weapons that are better (LC etc.), but more importantly for this conversation, they both can take twin heavy bolters for two points more. The HB are 6 shots st5 -1 AP D1, while the reaper is 4 shots st7 -1AP D1. So the only advantage the reaper has is the st7, which only matters against T3, 5, 6 and 7. They wound the same on t4, probably the most common T in the game, the 2+ against T3 is not worth the loss of the extra two shots as anything T3 there is going to be a lot of them, T5 is pretty rare outside of Nurgle, and T6/7 are usually vehicles or monsters, which makes the Reaper not very effective because it only has D1. So there is no reason really to take the reaper over the twin HB on either of these vehicles. The Reaper cannon should really be 3 shot, but improved with D2. Then it would be just kind of a better auto-cannon.

A runner up for me would be the Hellbrute Plasma Cannon. R36D3 shots St8 AP-3, D2, but every one you roll is 1 mortal wound. It is only 20 points less than the twin LC, which is 1 better st (and the all important 9), same AP, better range, two shots always (so no bad roll to get one) and Dd6. The LC are soooooooo much better it is not even funny. Also, if you move you are taking mortal wounds on a 1 or2, or maybe even a 3 if the enemy has any modifiers on it. The HBPC could be free, and I don't think I would take it. If they are going to make this weapon that dangerous to use it really should be d6 shots, St8, AP-3 D3. Then I might take it.

I agree with Xeen on some of the Chaos weapons which rarely find use in my army.