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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Nebulas1 wrote:
Honestly I'm a bit disappointed in the codex. I didn't want space marines with a lemon twist.

I wanted codex: Vlka Fenryka, I wanted a Jarl and his huscarls leading a hunting/raiding party into the stars, I would have preferred they do reivers as troops and intercessors as elites or maybe even not at all.

Instead I can take a Space Wolves, wolf lord with wolf claws and wolf guard riding a thunder wolf. Who cares about how powerful the codex is if it has no heart?

How does it have no heart, its got everything it used to just with extra units. Plus Primaris are new, they have just joined the Rout, in the future they'll be more wolfy. It makes sense, plus they can't just bring out every new Primaris unit for every chapter release. Be patient.

Yeah I'm a bit puzzled too unless he means he's annoyed that the new unit space wovles got was a wulfen dreadnought. thing is we ALSO get a buncha other stuff too. and ther wulfen and wolf stuff well.. the space wolves like the blood angels are defined in part by the flaws of their geneseed.

There are no wolves on Fenris.

Compared to the other codex's I'm really glad about what we got.

I typed that in a hurry, let me put it differently. If space wolves didn't have the primaris stuff, I wouldn't feel like we were missing anything. Wolf lords, rune priests, wolf priests, long fangs, grey hunters etc these are all units that have a parallel in marines dexs but they have their own flavor to them, something that makes the codex feel special. The primaris stuff just feels like a bolt on designed to appease that actually cheapens the rest of the book. I would have liked them to find a way to give space wolves primaris their own flavor, Ideally they would have taken it a step further and renamed existing things to be a little more mature like they did in HH:inferno.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:



I'm not suggesting an army of dreads. There is such a thing as tactics, teleport terminator squads right in your opponents face or our stormfang which is a beast now, to limit the firing against your CC units, doing stuff like that. Its easy. SW's have so many fast units, Fenrisian wolves, Wulfen, Wulfen dreads, TWC, Grimnar. So what if the strongest units in the game have fly.

Dude I may not be a great player, but termintors no matter what kind are bad this edition. I don't know how you can see wulfen or dreads as fast, maybe if the normal speed is the speed of a footslogging marine, but we all know that this is not the case. The units that move in 8th ed all have fly, or teleport around, have redeploys etc A BAs jump pack dude is fast, a TWC HQ or a dread is not. I am not saying that SW are the worse codex in the game, or that they don't have interesting and cheap stratagems for example. They do, they just don't seem to be an improvment over what a the BA codex gives imperial players.

And as others said the fact that your good units get nerfed by use of terrain or placment of units or objective on the 2ed floor of a building does, IMO, hint at the fact that the army has some serious problems.

Honestly i dont know why your’re even worried about this at all. First of all the other person has to pick headhunter as a secondary, which they probably wont do unless you have 4-5 characters to start, if they pick it and you only have three characters to start then just don’t use the strat to deny a point. But this strategem actually has some potential. Let’s say the enemy is trying too shoot you off of an objective in your backfield, they get your scout squad down to one guy and you pop this strat, now they cant shoot him. In any mission this would be great to save yourself loosing an objective to long range shooting.

The whole SW codex is build around auras given out by multiple characters. So two things happen. Either you have a SW army without the stuff that makes it good, or your opponent took headhunter and is benefiting from it.

Don't you dare point out that all balance discussions on Dakka are worthless because everyone speaks like the game is only played at the top tables of international level tournaments, while that represents less than 0,1% of the player base!

Keep logic and facts out of Dakka, we don't need them!

Strange, I was told that mass use of terrain happens in non tournament games too. Or is it normal for people in the US to have terrain house ruled to be free game for cavalery and beast models?

Or they'll be played by people who don't wanna go to tournies and spam the most broken units they can find with the Imperium Keyword

Are you one of those people that expect to see no plasma in games, no CP batteries, no eldar armies, no psychic powers and just waves primaris armed in bolters walking in a phalanx formation across the board and slaming in to each other in to the middle, making the game a 4 turn melee of units that shouldn;t ever be in melee?

Karol wrote:
SW seem a weaker version of BAs. Ton of buffs, nice and cheap stratagems, and almost nothing to use them on. If there is anything that is going to be used out of the codex it is probablly some sort of SW version of slamguinius.

GH/BC aren't suddenly making meq worth being run in 8th ed. TWC are less efficient point per point then custodes. There is a ton of melee, even good melee, but no real way to actually reach the melee or keep stuff locked in it. If SW had a good way to ignore Fly or had very good fly unit themselfs, then it would be a totally different thing.

If people are going to play SW it is probablly going to be some sort of Hero spam, with some cheap wolfs, with custodes and IG CP battery allied in. Maybe some people will trade in the custodes for a knight.

If you are talking about a pure army, then I actually think SW come out better than BA. It seems pretty clear to me that they still suffer from all the same issues Marines do, but their special units seem pretty solid, they have generally better strategems, and even their basic units are better than tacs and assault Marines etc. So if you are going to play space Marines, I do think SW is the way to do it right now.

When it comes to the hyper competitive ally fest system, I think they might see some play but probably only as an ally to IG or IG+BA. SW rune priests supporting Wulfen and TWC might be good enough to bring into some lists. Wulfen are very difficult to kill with 3++ and FNP, and will be really good at killing things like knights with their S10 hammers, and TWC seem like a solid unit, especially if BA captains and custide jikes get nerfed in the future.

I have a lot of hope that as GW continues to fix the game in the FAQs and CA that SW will slowly rise to the top.

Karol wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:



I'm not suggesting an army of dreads. There is such a thing as tactics, teleport terminator squads right in your opponents face or our stormfang which is a beast now, to limit the firing against your CC units, doing stuff like that. Its easy. SW's have so many fast units, Fenrisian wolves, Wulfen, Wulfen dreads, TWC, Grimnar. So what if the strongest units in the game have fly.

Dude I may not be a great player, but termintors no matter what kind are bad this edition. I don't know how you can see wulfen or dreads as fast, maybe if the normal speed is the speed of a footslogging marine, but we all know that this is not the case. The units that move in 8th ed all have fly, or teleport around, have redeploys etc A BAs jump pack dude is fast, a TWC HQ or a dread is not. I am not saying that SW are the worse codex in the game, or that they don't have interesting and cheap stratagems for example. They do, they just don't seem to be an improvment over what a the BA codex gives imperial players.

And as others said the fact that your good units get nerfed by use of terrain or placment of units or objective on the 2ed floor of a building does, IMO, hint at the fact that the army has some serious problems.

Honestly i dont know why your’re even worried about this at all. First of all the other person has to pick headhunter as a secondary, which they probably wont do unless you have 4-5 characters to start, if they pick it and you only have three characters to start then just don’t use the strat to deny a point. But this strategem actually has some potential. Let’s say the enemy is trying too shoot you off of an objective in your backfield, they get your scout squad down to one guy and you pop this strat, now they cant shoot him. In any mission this would be great to save yourself loosing an objective to long range shooting.

The whole SW codex is build around auras given out by multiple characters. So two things happen. Either you have a SW army without the stuff that makes it good, or your opponent took headhunter and is benefiting from it.

Don't you dare point out that all balance discussions on Dakka are worthless because everyone speaks like the game is only played at the top tables of international level tournaments, while that represents less than 0,1% of the player base!

Keep logic and facts out of Dakka, we don't need them!

Strange, I was told that mass use of terrain happens in non tournament games too. Or is it normal for people in the US to have terrain house ruled to be free game for cavalery and beast models?

Or they'll be played by people who don't wanna go to tournies and spam the most broken units they can find with the Imperium Keyword

Are you one of those people that expect to see no plasma in games, no CP batteries, no eldar armies, no psychic powers and just waves primaris armed in bolters walking in a phalanx formation across the board and slaming in to each other in to the middle, making the game a 4 turn melee of units that shouldn;t ever be in melee?

Since 5" is average they are fast and they can run and charge, yeah that's very fast. I like terminators, they are 2 wound which is very important in this edition. combi bolters are actually good now.

jcd386 wrote:

Karol wrote:
SW seem a weaker version of BAs. Ton of buffs, nice and cheap stratagems, and almost nothing to use them on. If there is anything that is going to be used out of the codex it is probablly some sort of SW version of slamguinius.

GH/BC aren't suddenly making meq worth being run in 8th ed. TWC are less efficient point per point then custodes. There is a ton of melee, even good melee, but no real way to actually reach the melee or keep stuff locked in it. If SW had a good way to ignore Fly or had very good fly unit themselfs, then it would be a totally different thing.

If people are going to play SW it is probablly going to be some sort of Hero spam, with some cheap wolfs, with custodes and IG CP battery allied in. Maybe some people will trade in the custodes for a knight.

If you are talking about a pure army, then I actually think SW come out better than BA. It seems pretty clear to me that they still suffer from all the same issues Marines do, but their special units seem pretty solid, they have generally better strategems, and even their basic units are better than tacs and assault Marines etc. So if you are going to play space Marines, I do think SW is the way to do it right now.

When it comes to the hyper competitive ally fest system, I think they might see some play but probably only as an ally to IG or IG+BA. SW rune priests supporting Wulfen and TWC might be good enough to bring into some lists. Wulfen are very difficult to kill with 3++ and FNP, and will be really good at killing things like knights with their S10 hammers, and TWC seem like a solid unit, especially if BA captains and custide jikes get nerfed in the future.

I have a lot of hope that as GW continues to fix the game in the FAQs and CA that SW will slowly rise to the top.

But the SW buffs are weaker then the BA ones. Yes they get a huge buff to hit, but hiting stuff was never a problem for marines. Wounding is or at least can be, so a +1 to wound is much better rule then +1 to hit. The relocation thing for characters is nice, and it can be used as an extra move if you have an opponent withing 6" of your unengaged dude at the start of your turn.

Space marines don't play with that many marines in their armies, the work is done by characters, custodes or knights. Most armies run scouts over tacticals, and if we do see actual marines it is very specific stuff like hellblasters or plasma bikers in DA armies. The problem with the TWC package is that it does not out perform custodes while costing more points, because of the buff characters needed and unlike jetbikes, it get stoped by terrain. It is a horrible thing to lose a game because your opponent put his objectives on top floor of a building and you can't reach it. Look at BAs DC, they have simiular the stuff TWC have, speed through packs, options to take extra weapons, more resilient then normal marines and just like TWC they require buff characters to be run. The DC stoped being run post the deep strike nerf, because they are no longer worth it. And unlike TWC DC aren't limited by terrain, have the very nice fly rule etc.

The SW codex has some nice stuff, but often it either lacks proper synergy, or it is the case of outflanking longfangs/hellblasters with the stratagem killing maybe a unit and then being dead. Now if SW GH or BC cost 8-9 pts, then we could be talking about some sort of swarm build for them. But this way, they are not much better then BAs, and worse in a few places then even normal marine codex. In fact after getting to read all the marine books lately I am coming to the conclusion that all 4 of them were being writen at the same time, maybe even by the same person, a ton of copy past was being done.

Yet again not everyone wants to run some "super soup toruny list" which basicly consists of "I'll cherry pick the most broken stuff from codex A B and C" Some people build mono-codex and are happy if their army is simply solid over all. So rather then look at each unit and ask "HOW CAN WE SPAM THIS WITH CUSTODES GUARD AND KNIGHTS" some look at the codex over all and say "this looks like fun"

Honestly if your measure of good is Custodes Jetbikes and Slamguinus you're going to be continuously disappointed.

It's looking to be miles better than any of the other Marine codices barring Deathwatch.

The dumbest thing is they droped the cost of their flyer 50 points lol. 50 points! It was already better than a storm raven for it's cost and they dropped it 50 points. Hilarious.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


It's looking to be miles better than any of the other Marine codices barring Deathwatch.

If that's your standard of quality I'd imagine any release would make you happy at this point.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


It's looking to be miles better than any of the other Marine codices barring Deathwatch.

If that's your standard of quality I'd imagine any release would make you happy at this point.

Well as someone with a bunch of Marines and ones waiting to be built...kinda yeah.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


It's looking to be miles better than any of the other Marine codices barring Deathwatch.

If that's your standard of quality I'd imagine any release would make you happy at this point.

they're a space marine army, I mean you can only do so much with that

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


It's looking to be miles better than any of the other Marine codices barring Deathwatch.

If that's your standard of quality I'd imagine any release would make you happy at this point.

Well as someone with a bunch of Marines and ones waiting to be built...kinda yeah.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


It's looking to be miles better than any of the other Marine codices barring Deathwatch.

If that's your standard of quality I'd imagine any release would make you happy at this point.

they're a space marine army, I mean you can only do so much with that

As guy who primarily plays Primaris armies I am right there with you.

Well Primaris still get access to Deathwatch. Should MAYBE take advantage of that.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The dumbest thing is they droped the cost of their flyer 50 points lol. 50 points! It was already better than a storm raven for it's cost and they dropped it 50 points. Hilarious.

SR is overcosted sadly, but just b.c SW is getter a bit cheaper doesnt mean the SR wont soon either. Especially with the rule of 3 now, they really need to rebalance some points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Primaris still get access to Deathwatch. Should MAYBE take advantage of that.

Oh yeah I do already. I use Deathwatch rules for my Primaris boys and it's far better than every other option available. I still miss the banner ancient though...

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Primaris still get access to Deathwatch. Should MAYBE take advantage of that.

Oh yeah I do already. I use Deathwatch rules for my Primaris boys and it's far better than every other option available. I still miss the banner ancient though...

Yeah I miss the Ancient but i think the better offense without needing to die is better for us in the long run. Had Deathwatch access to Ancients I'd take them in a heartbeat.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


It's looking to be miles better than any of the other Marine codices barring Deathwatch.

If that's your standard of quality I'd imagine any release would make you happy at this point.

Well as someone with a bunch of Marines and ones waiting to be built...kinda yeah.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


It's looking to be miles better than any of the other Marine codices barring Deathwatch.

If that's your standard of quality I'd imagine any release would make you happy at this point.

they're a space marine army, I mean you can only do so much with that

As guy who primarily plays Primaris armies I am right there with you.

well what I mean by that is that GW wants to keep space marine armies roughly on par, to void a case of "X is just better at everything" etc, space wolves are already in a great place by comparison, but I mean ultimately they are a space marine army

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The dumbest thing is they droped the cost of their flyer 50 points lol. 50 points! It was already better than a storm raven for it's cost and they dropped it 50 points. Hilarious.

SR is overcosted sadly, but just b.c SW is getter a bit cheaper doesnt mean the SR wont soon either. Especially with the rule of 3 now, they really need to rebalance some points.

Well they nerfed it pretty recently. So it seems odd to buff the storm wolf - which is just a storm raven but better (SW can't carry a dread...but that is worthless).

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The dumbest thing is they droped the cost of their flyer 50 points lol. 50 points! It was already better than a storm raven for it's cost and they dropped it 50 points. Hilarious.

SR is overcosted sadly, but just b.c SW is getter a bit cheaper doesnt mean the SR wont soon either. Especially with the rule of 3 now, they really need to rebalance some points.

Well they nerfed it pretty recently. So it seems odd to buff the storm wolf - which is just a storm raven but better (SW can't carry a dread...but that is worthless).

Honestly I'm just hoping someone decides to come in this thread and argue that's a good ability.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The dumbest thing is they droped the cost of their flyer 50 points lol. 50 points! It was already better than a storm raven for it's cost and they dropped it 50 points. Hilarious.

SR is overcosted sadly, but just b.c SW is getter a bit cheaper doesnt mean the SR wont soon either. Especially with the rule of 3 now, they really need to rebalance some points.

Well they nerfed it pretty recently. So it seems odd to buff the storm wolf - which is just a storm raven but better (SW can't carry a dread...but that is worthless).

Its been almost a year from the nerf.... how fast they been doing changes thats not long.

We also have a CA coming out soon (we think)

Karol wrote:

Don't you dare point out that all balance discussions on Dakka are worthless because everyone speaks like the game is only played at the top tables of international level tournaments, while that represents less than 0,1% of the player base!

Keep logic and facts out of Dakka, we don't need them!

Strange, I was told that mass use of terrain happens in non tournament games too. Or is it normal for people in the US to have terrain house ruled to be free game for cavalery and beast models?

My comment was more regarding the fact that everyone here believes that the game is only played with top lists in mind.

BA, DA and now SW are solid factions, perfectly competitive as mono codex until you want to put together a list that can compete in big national events. But that is not an issue, because almost everyone in here and almost every player of 40K will never do something like that.
This is why discussing balance in this forum is useless, it is like a car forum where the most common answer is "Yeah, that car is fine, but doesn't get the same times as a Ferrari, so it's useless"..

We discuss balance here because it is fun and as a mental exercise, but i hope that no one thinks that what we say here has any value, and i'm sure that GW is well aware of this.

as for TWC not being able to climb buildings well.. don't spam JUST WTC, take some infantry to do infantry's job. root the enemy out. Space Wolves have some pretty good infantry for that task too. Outside of specialized melee units Grey Hunters are a pretty good unit for combat combat work

Spoletta wrote:

Karol wrote:

Don't you dare point out that all balance discussions on Dakka are worthless because everyone speaks like the game is only played at the top tables of international level tournaments, while that represents less than 0,1% of the player base!

Keep logic and facts out of Dakka, we don't need them!

Strange, I was told that mass use of terrain happens in non tournament games too. Or is it normal for people in the US to have terrain house ruled to be free game for cavalery and beast models?

My comment was more regarding the fact that everyone here believes that the game is only played with top lists in mind.

BA, DA and now SW are solid factions, perfectly competitive as mono codex until you want to put together a list that can compete in big national events. But that is not an issue, because almost everyone in here and almost every player of 40K will never do something like that.
This is why discussing balance in this forum is useless, it is like a car forum where the most common answer is "Yeah, that car is fine, but doesn't get the same times as a Ferrari, so it's useless"..

We discuss balance here because it is fun and as a mental exercise, but i hope that no one thinks that what we say here has any value, and i'm sure that GW is well aware of this.

Well maybe that is how the game is played in the US. In places where the cost of the game is really high,almost no one buys the "bad" stuff, which means the tournament lists you say no one plays are play at the store level. It is not a question of a ferrari vs an old Volvo. It is having a race car that is unmoded, and you don't get unmoded race cares outside of few events that are build that way. May as well say that SW are fine, because narrative play exists and with SW being the good guys you will never end up fighting custodes, or something like that.

I'm glad to see some Space Wolves players happy. There's always gnashing of teeth whenever a Codex drops, because let's face it- for some people, their Army got 'nerfed' or 'pooped on' if they don't get a 1CP Strategem called "Insta-Murder all enemy units and throw his models in the toilet and pee on them with the door open".

As far as the heads go, you could probably use some of the older ones to give them a bit of personal flair. I know it's not ideal, but there's also some cool third party companies like Spellcrow that make some interesting long-haired beardymen. Take advantage of those guys, and support third-party bits-makers!

I can personally vouch for Spellcrow, as I've ordered in the past and he packed the bag with some extra freebies that I REALLY thought were cool.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm glad to see some Space Wolves players happy. There's always gnashing of teeth whenever a Codex drops, because let's face it- for some people, their Army got 'nerfed' or 'pooped on' if they don't get a 1CP Strategem called "Insta-Murder all enemy units and throw his models in the toilet and pee on them with the door open".

As far as the heads go, you could probably use some of the older ones to give them a bit of personal flair. I know it's not ideal, but there's also some cool third party companies like Spellcrow that make some interesting long-haired beardymen. Take advantage of those guys, and support third-party bits-makers!

I can personally vouch for Spellcrow, as I've ordered in the past and he packed the bag with some extra freebies that I REALLY thought were cool.

problem is a LOT of the space wolf heads that come in the space wolf pack box are a bit awkward with the high collar, it's not just the beards eaither but some of the long swinging braids are also a hassle. but a nuber work quite well.

that said just looked at spellcrow and there are definatly some good heads there, suitably space wolfish without getting in the way of the collar

BrianDavion wrote:
problem is a LOT of the space wolf heads that come in the space wolf pack box are a bit awkward with the high collar, it's not just the beards eaither but some of the long swinging braids are also a hassle. but a nuber work quite well.

Ah, I didn't think of that. Well, I hope you find some that work for you, man. Let me make a recommendation: http://www.spellcrow.com/space-knights-heads-with-long-hair-p-281.html

Those kinda look like viking dudes, right?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
problem is a LOT of the space wolf heads that come in the space wolf pack box are a bit awkward with the high collar, it's not just the beards eaither but some of the long swinging braids are also a hassle. but a nuber work quite well.

Ah, I didn't think of that. Well, I hope you find some that work for you, man. Let me make a recommendation: http://www.spellcrow.com/space-knights-heads-with-long-hair-p-281.html

Those kinda look like viking dudes, right?

funny you should link those, I was just eyeing them literally as you posted. definatly a good pick.

BrianDavion wrote:
funny you should link those, I was just eyeing them literally as you posted. definatly a good pick.

Spellcrow is certainly one of the better companies I've purchased from, I strongly recommend taking some of their stuff. Browse around, they have space viking knight stuff out the butt and it's pretty awesome!

And I don't play them, I just buy interesting things here and there.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
funny you should link those, I was just eyeing them literally as you posted. definatly a good pick.

Spellcrow is certainly one of the better companies I've purchased from, I strongly recommend taking some of their stuff. Browse around, they have space viking knight stuff out the butt and it's pretty awesome!

And I don't play them, I just buy interesting things here and there.

Yeah, ity's getting book marked. I mean I've not had too big a deal with my space wolves and I don't mind plenty of helmets. but always good to have a source for more heads, especially as a large varity of heads is good, otherwise all your marines start to look alike

BrianDavion wrote:
Yeah, ity's getting book marked. I mean I've not had too big a deal with my space wolves and I don't mind plenty of helmets. but always good to have a source for more heads, especially as a large varity of heads is good, otherwise all your marines start to look alike

Yep! And if you play Kill-Team, you CERTAINLY want your dudes to have some personality and flair. They're Action Movie Heroes' then, not 'another Space Marine in a squad'.