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During the Rogue Trader era, we had a good number of multi-part plastic troop kits - most famously the classic beakie marines.
Then, around the time of 2nd ed 40k, this stopped. Instead we get very simple monopose plastic models. Normally the characters body, with backpack + weapons to stick on.

We went from this:


...to this, eurgh:


And of course, during third edition (was it just prior? I think it may have started with a WHFB regiment) we got RTB01 style sets back with the Tactical Marines box and the new Dark Eldar warriors.

Now, the cynic in me says that this were a ploy to sell more of the metal, more interesting posed varients of plastic squads (still monopose).

But I'm wondering if there was any other reason behind this period of miniature design?

They didn't have much experience with plastic moulding, so it was easier and cheaper to do static poses.

They didn't.

They went from mediocre multi-part plastics to metal+plastic squad boxes. The squad you posted is the easy-to-build starter box squad which came in the 2nd edition starter box. Intended for ease of use, and cheap production.





All races had one easy-to-build basic troop box of monopose plastics. Everything else was more or less metal bodies w/ plastic arm/weapon/backpack sprues.

Their plastic sprue tech was mediocre at best - while nostalgic, the RTB01s are not good models...they're super pale in detail, etc. Metal was far easier to produce, cheaper, and held better detail at the time. It also allowed them to produce different squads for all the main chapters. Remember, plastic moulds are crazy expensive and GW wasn't a huge company in 2nd edition. It was still business-poor, but producing a large line of miniatures. Far easier/smarter to do it in metal w/ plastic arm sprues. RTB01 was basically one box of space marines supported by metal characters.

The metal squads allowed GW to have unique boxes for: Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Death Company, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Assault Squads, etc. This was financially not feasible at the time for high quality plastic production.

I thought this thread was about GWs recent shift towards monopose plastics, but it's about old models! I think that GW has always done snapfit models for starter boxes with two armies and rightly so. A few monopose dudes in the army does no harm! I'm not a fan of the new Plague Marine kits though, or the Primaris dudes. They just seem too static.

That continues to intrigue me though. Everyone makes a big deal about multi-part plastics, but we're generally talking about Space Marines. While I enjoy the kit-bash nature of marines, for basic marines, I see little to no benefit in multi-part minis. A marine holding a bolter is still a marine holding a bolter, normally at one of three angles...and a head which goes in a couple directions, hardly dynamic. I'd understand if marine kits came with far more arms options, running legs, etc. I just don't see the variety people seem to think comes from multi-part kits. I appreciate that I can build some characters from a variety of parts, but you could do more or less just as much with the old metal squads + plastic sprues (admittedly the plastic sprues were really limited back then though).

I find the Primaris intercessors in the DI boxt to be just as "dynamic" as any of the multi-part kits. They're still guys holding bolters.

 Elbows wrote:
That continues to intrigue me though. Everyone makes a big deal about multi-part plastics, but we're generally talking about Space Marines. While I enjoy the kit-bash nature of marines, for basic marines, I see little to no benefit in multi-part minis. A marine holding a bolter is still a marine holding a bolter, normally at one of three angles...and a head which goes in a couple directions, hardly dynamic. I'd understand if marine kits came with far more arms options, running legs, etc. I just don't see the variety people seem to think comes from multi-part kits. I appreciate that I can build some characters from a variety of parts, but you could do more or less just as much with the old metal squads + plastic sprues (admittedly the plastic sprues were really limited back then though).

I find the Primaris intercessors in the DI boxt to be just as "dynamic" as any of the multi-part kits. They're still guys holding bolters.

The thing is for people who have acquired an extensive bits collection.

The basic marine body is compatible with the parts found in every other plastic marine kit. The old plastic Space Marine commander box had compatible parts that you could use on a basic tactical marine box.

Once you had enough extra bits you could do tons of stuff with a new box of Tactical marines far beyond just what was in the box.

Kitbashing lets you make cool/funny poses like this.



Thats a sergeant's extended right arm, a devastator missile launcher left hand, and a plasma gun. And because the kit is flexible in its posing, you can adjust the body positioning to get the perfect pose.

I made a Librarian pointing with a Power Fist at some unseen target in a commanding fashion(back when Libbys could take Power Fists). I made a Sergeant also with a pointing powerfist who was kneeling behind a barricade. I recreated the above Plasma gun marine. I made a marine who was reloading his bolter with an open hand holding a magazine and the other holding his bolter up ready to put in the new magazine. Cool stuff like that would never be possible with mono-pose miniatures unless you were good at cutting and resculpting. Multi-part pose-able kits make conversions less intimidating and more accessable.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
They didn't have much experience with plastic moulding, so it was easier and cheaper to do static poses.

Additionally, volumes then were much lower which meant small sprues reused many times in order to be economical. If you look at the first and second edition plastics (and the plastic parts of the hybrid kits) you would get a box with multiple copies of a small sprue. Even the rhino was built from two identical sprues.

By the time 3rd rolled around volumes were up, they invested in people and equipment and the first of the modern plastic kits came out.

What's more interesting is that we are seeing that design philosophy of reusing sprues to reduce fixed cost on low volume models creeping back in. The two dominus knights both include a pair of identical sprues for legs, etc. It would have been easier to design them with two different sprues for those parts (see the questoris knights) but that would have increased the startup cost of the models.

Hm, yeah people always say that multipart kits aren't dynamic, and that there are only so many ways to glue a Marine together but I disagree. I used to have great fun ordering bits online and making custom dudes. Blood Angels have amazing torso sets, Berzerkers have slightly taller legs, Space Wolves have amazing weapons. It's not hard to see the possibilities. I once kitbashed a full squad of Honour Guard in 6th in this way and holy feth did they look good. I did Sternguard out of CSM and beakie helmets, also very very cool.

Just try kitbashing a Primaris Marine using only Primaris sprues. Yay, you can glue different arms and heads onto a monopose torso and leg assembly. Did we suddenly lose all our modelling skill GW has to dumb down the new kits? I haven't got any Primaris kits outside of the snapfit ones for just this reason. If I'm paying $70 for a box of 10 guys, they better not be monopose. And what happens if I do decide to run 2 squads of Intercessors? Now unless I break out the knife and putty all my dudes will look exactly the same, maybe a little arm waving or head turning, but other than that? No variety.

My point is primarily that you could do the exact same with metal bodies, only limitation being heads (which some dedicated folks still found ways to chop off). Bolter guys will still be bolter guys, but you could do the same with plastic arms/backpacks etc. to a metal torso you could with a plastic kit (unless you want your torso spun around haphazardly).

I understand the plastic for heroes and champions, and the occasional cool pose..but even GW is limiting on those poses. I'd be more dedicated to plastic if you had more genuinely dynamic (read: not just waving arms) bits to use. I'd like to see more slung-bolt guns, more arms holding helmets, more legs actually running (not tripping like bezerkers), and more kneeling sets - not just the bizarrely sculpted devastator legs, etc.

You also don't get as fluid a pose as you do on many of the monopose metal characters, because the nature of a modular plastic kit prevents it (something you see in monopose plastics as well - poses and details you can't do in the multi-part models unless you're using a ton of green stuff etc.)

I've just never understood the heavy disdain for metals as if they were some impossible gaming material to use.

I think metal minis are fine and I accept that sort of monopose sculpt but again with the metal minis, and especially older metals they were fluid and dynamic. Mind you some were horrible and looked goofy, but GW made plenty of different sculpts so that a rank of Beastmen could look somewhat unique. I realize the only difference between metal and plastic monopose models is the material used, but I feel like plastic is such an easier medium to convert that it's a shame to lose out on that for the sake of what? Production efficiency?

Yes multipart kits have their limits in the actual diversity of poses, but it's so much easier to do say a truescale marine from a multipart kit rather than a monopose. There is also the fact that a lot of newer character models are covered in details that are hard to duplicate after having a go at them with a saw!

Now if GW had a better line of easy build stuff, I'd be all for that. I would buy my factions easy build kits, and multiples of them, especially for factions that need lots of models. I can accept that because it's a reduced price point. Sure my dudes will look like your dudes, but at least we saved money on Warhammer and that's always good. But $45 for a character and I can't fiddle with it a bit to make it mine without having advanced hobby skills? $70 for dudes with Bolters? It wasn't long ago that we got a new SM Tac box and it got priced higher because it was straight up better. BA and DA got em too, new Dev kits all around. We are paying for customization on one hand, and on the other... I'm not sure? 2 wounds and less bitz in the box after?

Oh, I concur. I don't understand the current pricing policies of GW. It also kills me that while I don't dislike monopose figures at all...I hate seeing "one" option in plastic for $30 a pop. That's a damn crime in wargaming.

I think that is genuinely going backwards to where they've been in the past. In the 90's, even though they were metal, when they released the Space Marine Chaplains...they released four unique sculpts, and that doesn't include the special ones for certain Chapters...just basic Marine Chaplains you had four sculpts, and then a fifth in Terminator armour. And one arm was always plastic so you could do whatever you wanted with them.

Now...you get one model. That fething sucks. That's genuinely a huge loss. I know you can model your own out of bits, etc...but I really hate the direction its going.

It's a darn shame and the main reason I'm keeping my Primaris army very small. It might even be done once I get a Repulsor.

Yo, thanks for answers! So to summarize; GW didn't quite have the tech + knowledge/experience for high quality, multipart plastic minis at the time, compounded by not being at the scale where plastic manufacturing was economical.

Pretty much. There are some great old White Dwarf articles where they show how they produce Citadel Miniatures. It was very economical to do metal miniatures vs. investing in plastic kit machining. Plastic tech has come a long way.

That's both good and bad in my opinion.

 Elbows wrote:
They didn't.

They went from mediocre multi-part plastics to metal+plastic squad boxes.

And then followed that up with muliti-part plastics... They weren't quite on the same level as the 3rd ed version (heads were attached to the torso), but were still nice to work with at the time.

 Elbows wrote:
Oh, I concur. I don't understand the current pricing policies of GW. It also kills me that while I don't dislike monopose figures at all...I hate seeing "one" option in plastic for $30 a pop. That's a damn crime in wargaming.

I think that is genuinely going backwards to where they've been in the past. In the 90's, even though they were metal, when they released the Space Marine Chaplains...they released four unique sculpts, and that doesn't include the special ones for certain Chapters...just basic Marine Chaplains you had four sculpts, and then a fifth in Terminator armour. And one arm was always plastic so you could do whatever you wanted with them.

Now...you get one model. That fething sucks. That's genuinely a huge loss. I know you can model your own out of bits, etc...but I really hate the direction its going.

Alas GW insists on the stupid plastic for everything policy :(

I think that decision coupled with the "no kit, no rules" is a HUGE misstep. They could have tackled it in a much better way, and they chose not too. Really sad to see.

tneva82 wrote:

Alas GW insists on the stupid plastic for everything policy :(

That in itself isn't a stupid policy, not when they're turning out plastic kits that are as good as they have been lately. If they were still offering either multiple model options, or at least more customisable options, having everything in plastic would be fantastic. Certainly better than continuing with 'Fine'cast.

 insaniak wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Alas GW insists on the stupid plastic for everything policy :(

That in itself isn't a stupid policy, not when they're turning out plastic kits that are as good as they have been lately. If they were still offering either multiple model options, or at least more customisable options, having everything in plastic would be fantastic. Certainly better than continuing with 'Fine'cast.

Problem is with plastic you can't really do multiple options viably. Especially as just because you make 2 different chaplains doesn't mean you double your sales as not everybody needs 2 chaplains. GW could do multiple metal chaplains _because metal allowed them to do that financially_.

Now for that to be viable they would need to sell say box of 4 different chaplains. You think that would go well? People would have to buy 4 chaplains even if they want just 1.

Plastic for everything led to less options and higher character prices. That's the inevitable result you get due to way plastic/metal/resin mould systems works. You get good sides of plastics but then you are stuck with weaknesses as well. Plastic is NOT suited for everything.

tneva82 wrote:

Problem is with plastic you can't really do multiple options viably. Especially as just because you make 2 different chaplains doesn't mean you double your sales as not everybody needs 2 chaplains. GW could do multiple metal chaplains _because metal allowed them to do that financially_.

Now for that to be viable they would need to sell say box of 4 different chaplains. You think that would go well? People would have to buy 4 chaplains even if they want just 1..

They don't need to sell 4 different chaplains - one chaplain with a couple of different chestplate and arm options would get it back to more or less where things were when we had multiple metal models that were largely just different details on the same stock model.

I fully believe GW "could" do really good command squads/character packages...and in that sense you could provide a lot of versatility and some weapon options, but that wouldn't make as much money as single $30 clampacks.

If they make full customizable command squads like IG but better, then they can get away with charging more than $35. On top of that, they'd get recurring purchases. Who is buying monopose characters more than once anyway?
Of course, I don't know the relative difference in cost, but it would certainly be profitable in absolute terms.

Indeed it's almost like GW hates bitz boxes. Any one character kit could come with a sprue of weapon and armour options, I mean, they used to! And it's not like we don't buy new kits anyways. If they redid the Chaos Termie lord kit and it was the same multipart kit format I'd buy more than one. A new Termie Lord in monopose? Only one, and only if it's cool.

I got one of those limited edition SM Captain models they did a few years ago. Great model, gakky gear. Hardly ever used him because Storm Bolter + Powerfist was a bad build at that time. I liked the model but really it was just a shelf warrior. If he had been multipart maybe I could have popped a melta on him or something? I dunno. Like I said, cheap kits are one thing, but when it comes to building an army I want to be able to customize my dudes. I mean, that's half the hobby right there.

 Elbows wrote:
I think that decision coupled with the "no kit, no rules" is a HUGE misstep. They could have tackled it in a much better way, and they chose not too. Really sad to see.

Makes me sad to think my Rough Riders will eventually be useless when a new edition comes around and they're not even in an index. Totally agree with you.

 sphynx wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I think that decision coupled with the "no kit, no rules" is a HUGE misstep. They could have tackled it in a much better way, and they chose not too. Really sad to see.

Makes me sad to think my Rough Riders will eventually be useless when a new edition comes around and they're not even in an index. Totally agree with you.

Remeber the days when Imperial Guard had bikes...

I'd much rather pay SM Commander prices for the SM Commander kit than pay SM clampack prices for current SM commanders.

I want an Eldar version of that kit. It was beautiful.

Bharring wrote:
I'd much rather pay SM Commander prices for the SM Commander kit than pay SM clampack prices for current SM commanders.

I want an Eldar version of that kit. It was beautiful.

The old Warhammer ork warboss, foot & mounted kit was perfect, something like that for other factions as well in 40k, a bike and a foot character, with options to adapt them to be heros, medics, mechanics, librarians etc - pulling double duty as a general 'upgrade' pack for line squads with additional command and weapon options

Bharring wrote:
I'd much rather pay SM Commander prices for the SM Commander kit than pay SM clampack prices for current SM commanders.

I want an Eldar version of that kit. It was beautiful.

This 100 percent especially since the clam packs figures are usually cut in a way that makes conversions harder and have ganky/ static wargear choices.

Look at what they did to my Autarch this edition! :(

Looks like they gave DE some of those weapon-conversion options (but still no bikes/boards).

The direction I wish GW would go is pretty simple, and can be done in plastic.

I'd like to see 3-4 figure "Command boxes" as we've discussed. An Eldar one for instance could be three or four figures with bits in the kit to make Farseers, Warlocks, and Spiritseers. Have a couple different bodies, several different heads, arms, etc. Could be basically two sprue halves, and GW could price it at $45-50. That'd still be pricey, but better than buying single pose plastic characters. It'd bring the old Warlocks and Spiritseers out of Finecast, etc. It would also make one SKU for GW to worry about, and they'd sell plenty. No Eldar player really needs "one" psyker and I don't think most would baulk at buying them in threes.

eBay and the trade market could cover the need for single models. I don't know how modular the Thousand Sons sorcerer box is, but that for Eldar would be great. Likewise a Primaris kit for the techmarine, apothecary, chaplain all in one kit with a variety of arms, heads, etc. would be great - charge $60 for the three of them. Again it reduces the SKU, the number of units, etc.

When Finecast finally disappears, I don't see any of the smaller Chapters getting plastic heroes (Lysander, Pedro Kantor, etc.) unless GW finds a more cost effective way to do it. However, I could see "Heroes of the Crimson Fists" box with 3-4 heroes including Pedro Kantor, a special standard bearer and maybe one or two other characters all in one box on one sprue. That might be worth GW doing if they think they could justify the price. I just think you'll see loads of named characters disappear from the game as Finecast is put to bed and GW struggles to justify making a $30-35 plastic sprue for a random Imperial Fists character, etc. I think we saw the approach with the Triumvirate boxes...so I hope they'll consider doing something like that for the smaller armies/chapters, etc.