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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I think the reason they'll kill off Cap is that Chris Evans reportedly doesnt want to act anymore.

I'm not sure that Marvel has a ton of faith in Chris Evans' ability to carry a film anyway. "Captain America" Civil War was an Avengers 2.5 film, and Tony Stark had the big character arc. Winter Soldier is still my fave Marvel film, and is truly a Cap movie, but also features more of an ensemble cast than most of Marvel's 'solo' films.

Basically, Evans is *definitely* no RDJ, and isn't even a Hemsworth either. When it comes time to reboot Steve Rogers, there won't be any great shadow cast by Evans' performance in the role.

Stan as Bucky Cap would probably lead to something more interesting than anything Marvel did with the character or Evans did with the role.

 gorgon wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I think the reason they'll kill off Cap is that Chris Evans reportedly doesnt want to act anymore.

I'm not sure that Marvel has a ton of faith in Chris Evans' ability to carry a film anyway. "Captain America" Civil War was an Avengers 2.5 film, and Tony Stark had the big character arc. Winter Soldier is still my fave Marvel film, and is truly a Cap movie, but also features more of an ensemble cast than most of Marvel's 'solo' films.

Basically, Evans is *definitely* no RDJ, and isn't even a Hemsworth either. When it comes time to reboot Steve Rogers, there won't be any great shadow cast by Evans' performance in the role.

Stan as Bucky Cap would probably lead to something more interesting than anything Marvel did with the character or Evans did with the role.

I don't think it's Chris Evans that Marvel doesn't have faith in, but Steve Rogers they don't have faith in. Rogers is too good/perfect/virtuous for today's audiences. Me, I like having some perfect heroes to look up to (Reeves is best Superman!), but that's not so popular today.

You mentioned Hemsworth, and I think it'll be interesting to see if he can carry a full Thor movie without Loki to bounce off of.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I don't think it's Chris Evans that Marvel doesn't have faith in, but Steve Rogers they don't have faith in.

You mentioned Hemsworth, and I think it'll be interesting to see if he can carry a full Thor movie without Loki to bounce off of.

Pretty much. Captain America, like Hulk, is best when it's not just him in the limelight, but rather as a contrast. Although, to be fair, almost all of the more recent Marvel movies tend to be more ensemble pieces than single star pieces.

Also, Thor did fine with Hulk by his side. Also Rocket.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

I don't think it's Chris Evans that Marvel doesn't have faith in, but Steve Rogers they don't have faith in. Rogers is too good/perfect/virtuous for today's audiences. Me, I like having some perfect heroes to look up to (Reeves is best Superman!), but that's not so popular today.

Then they've only got themselves to blame. Rogers can remain inherently good while still exploring flaws. He can doubt, his own unwavering pursuit of "the right thing" can work as a negative (as it sort of did in Civil War,) he can struggle to adapt to modern thinking. The fact that these things were generally used for comic relief if they were touched on at all, has robbed screen Rogers of a lot of his depth.

There's a long list of things they could do/have done to add depth to Rogers without compromising his inherent Cap-ness.

I don't like perfect heroes, never have, but unlike Superman whose inherent Mary-Sueness is baked in to the character, Cap is fundamentally still just a man and can be subject to the same struggles as anyone else.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

I don't think it's Chris Evans that Marvel doesn't have faith in, but Steve Rogers they don't have faith in. Rogers is too good/perfect/virtuous for today's audiences. Me, I like having some perfect heroes to look up to (Reeves is best Superman!), but that's not so popular today.

Then they've only got themselves to blame. Rogers can remain inherently good while still exploring flaws. He can doubt, his own unwavering pursuit of "the right thing" can work as a negative (as it sort of did in Civil War,) he can struggle to adapt to modern thinking. The fact that these things were generally used for comic relief if they were touched on at all, has robbed screen Rogers of a lot of his depth.

There's a long list of things they could do/have done to add depth to Rogers without compromising his inherent Cap-ness.

I don't like perfect heroes, never have, but unlike Superman whose inherent Mary-Sueness is baked in to the character, Cap is fundamentally still just a man and can be subject to the same struggles as anyone else.

Absolutely correct. The kneejerk representation of Steve Rogers is that he's Dudley Do-Right and a soldier that does everything he's told to do. Lawful good, in D&D terms. But his history in comics shows a character who follows his own moral code -- even when that puts him at odds with the law. He's quit the role of Captain America multiple times during these fallouts.

And for a Dudley Do-Right, he's sure had a lot of friends with...flexible(?)...moral codes. He has a long running association with SHIELD and Nick Fury, and his most famous girlfriend is an agent who went into deep cover for years, during which it was suggested she did ALL KINDS of gak. Another former girlfriend was a (mostly) reformed villain. It was revealed that Bucky did all the dirty gak during WWII that the government didn't want directly connected to Cap.

To be fair to Marvel Studios, they tried to incorporate a little of this into the films, as we saw in Winter Soldier and Civil War. But it was superficial. For whatever reason, they didn't want to explore the character very deeply. Again, Stark had the big character arc in Cap 3, not Rogers. And really, if you're making a movie, who are you asking to carry the film -- RDJ or Evans? If Evans have been a *revelation* in the role of Steve Rogers, maybe it would been different. Or maybe he couldn't make chicken salad out of chicken gak. I dunno.

I love Captain America. Evans was a perfect cast for him. I would watch a dozen more Cap America movies if they made them. But as far as carrying a movie, I don't think that is his point. Cap is a leader to me and is best when leading some group. But I also think there is only too much you can do with a guy and a shield. You need more elements in today's action films.

I wouldn't mind seeing Bucky carry the shield for awhile, but man that guy needs some changing. Not sure Bucky in his current form is all that interesting to me. Nor do I see him as any kind of leader either. I would have been down with Roger's being down for awhile and telling Bucky to carry on as Cap for a bit, but Cap always going back to Rogers.

He might be a hero out of time, but I love him.

 KTG17 wrote:
I love Captain America. Evans was a perfect cast for him. I would watch a dozen more Cap America movies if they made them. But as far as carrying a movie, I don't think that is his point. Cap is a leader to me and is best when leading some group. But I also think there is only too much you can do with a guy and a shield. You need more elements in today's action films.

He might be a hero out of time, but I love him.

Totally agree. The Movies with Cap are my favorite and I will watch any Cap film.

Evans has done a great job as cap; he just hasn't had is own story in quite a while, particularly after Cap 3 got replaced with Avengers 2.8 (still loved it, but it's as much of a Cap movie as Infinity War is an Iron Man one).

Civil War was still a Cap movie. It's single strongest thread was a direct continuation of the story that started in Winter Soldier - that being the Cap/Bucky plot.

Calling it Avengers 2.5 just cheapens the film. You might as well call it Black Panther #0 or Spider-Man #0.

That's what I'm getting at though. It is a Cap movie, but its also a pretty direct continuation of Avengers and Winter Soldier's stories and an introduction to Black Panther and Spiderman and even in a lot of ways an Iron Man story. It's not a slight against the film itself; the film is great. It's just not the strongest showcase of what they can do with Cap himself given all the other plot threads.

 LunarSol wrote:
That's what I'm getting at though. It is a Cap movie, but its also a pretty direct continuation of Avengers and Winter Soldier's stories and an introduction to Black Panther and Spiderman and even in a lot of ways an Iron Man story. It's not a slight against the film itself; the film is great. It's just not the strongest showcase of what they can do with Cap himself given all the other plot threads.

One of the (many) great things about the Marvel films is that they often introduce new characters - eg Black Widow in Iron Man 2 (who is still waiting for her own film) or the the new much improved Banner/Hulk in Avengers.

For me one of the weakest marvel films was Cap A 1 - although thats not a problem with Evans but a terrible villian and bad handling of Hydra.

 Mr Morden wrote:


One of the (many) great things about the Marvel films is that they often introduce new characters - eg Black Widow in Iron Man 2 (who is still waiting for her own film) or the the new much improved Banner/Hulk in Avengers.

For me one of the weakest marvel films was Cap A 1 - although thats not a problem with Evans but a terrible villian and bad handling of Hydra.

Yeah, I feel the same way about Captain America TFA as I do about Batman Begins. It's a really good origin story and does an excellent job of establishing how the character becomes the hero, but the actual film itself is just not that interesting. I think a lot of that comes down to the fact that Cap himself has no development in his own movie. He ends the film the same person as he was at the beginning, save for the physical transformation from the serum. It would have been interesting to challenge his tendency to take things in his own hands and his belief that his moral code is beyond reproach, but this never happens in the movie or either of the sequels. Cap is always doing the right thing, nothing ever happens that makes him question his own moral compass, and his actions never seem to have any averse consequences. Yes, he gets a few of his fellow heroes imprisoned on the Raft in Civil War, but he busts them right out at the end of that film.

I love Evans as Cap, don't get me wrong. I think he absolutely nailed the character, he gets the nobility of Steve Rogers down pat. It just feels like the writers could have done a lot more with him, especially when you compare his debut movie to the other phase 1 films. Tony is challenged to open his eyes to how his company really works and what the weapons that gave him his fortune are being used for. Thor is challenged to recognize what an arrogant douche he is and how unprepared he is for the throne. Cap never really gets that moment to question himself.

OTOH, in the comics, Cap turned out to be a Nazi, so there's that...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OTOH, in the comics, Cap turned out to be a Nazi, so there's that...

For those who don’t know the story, this is 100% untrue. Red Skull used the Tesseract to re-write history and turned Cap into a Nazi sleeper. Cap’s life was re-written by his biggest enemy. That’s hardly him “turning out to be a Nazi”.

Or it was a clone. I saw both. But it’s not actually the Cap we grew up with.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OTOH, in the comics, Cap turned out to be a Nazi, so there's that...

For those who don’t know the story, this is 100% untrue. Red Skull used the Tesseract to re-write history and turned Cap into a Nazi sleeper. Cap’s life was re-written by his biggest enemy. That’s hardly him “turning out to be a Nazi”.

Or it was a clone. I saw both. But it’s not actually the Cap we grew up with.

More or less true but more complicated then that.

Cosmic cubes are sentient creatures in a dormant state that when they wake up have memories and personality imprints from those who used the cube. The cube used over and over again over the years by red skull and cap and all kinds of other people has been awake and sentient for a while. Cap was old because the serum wore off and gak was going wrong and in the moment the cube made cap young again but because of the imprint from Red Skull also tried to make cap the "perfect" cap and rewrote history to make him a hydra agent and best friends with Baron Zemo. *

Red Skull was still a lunatic that cap saw as a corruption of hydra ideals that needed to be put down but he was hydra none the less.

Then original flavor cap got brought back by the same cube to oppose hydra cap who had total control of the countries defenses handed to him kind of like how iron man was given full control of shield and such and turned the country into a hydra fascist state.

Real cap beat the gak out of hydra cap and there was a pretty cool conversation between the 2 of them in prison.

Real Cap was all "Thanks. Ive been telling them all along not to trust any one individual. Even me. And you provided the evidence for why it's always a bad idea to put too much power in one place."

And hydra cap was all "You think you set the time line straight, but to me THIS is the corrupted time line. And now all those hydra agents feel the same way. Every time someone messed with the time line in the past how hard did you fight to set it right? Well now all those hydra agents will be fighting that much harder to set the world back to the way they know it should have always been before you and yours corrupted it."


End result. There is A cap that has always been a hydra agent. There is also a cap that never was and never would be.

*(Comics are dumb)

I didn't follow that storyline all that closely, so thanks for the synopsis - it actually sounds better than I thought it was!

Is it available in a TPB? (At least the overarching story issues)

And - what is Hydra Cap called now?

(Or is he a new Baron Zemo or...someone else?)

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


One of the (many) great things about the Marvel films is that they often introduce new characters - eg Black Widow in Iron Man 2 (who is still waiting for her own film) or the the new much improved Banner/Hulk in Avengers.

For me one of the weakest marvel films was Cap A 1 - although thats not a problem with Evans but a terrible villian and bad handling of Hydra.

Yeah, I feel the same way about Captain America TFA as I do about Batman Begins. It's a really good origin story and does an excellent job of establishing how the character becomes the hero, but the actual film itself is just not that interesting. I think a lot of that comes down to the fact that Cap himself has no development in his own movie. He ends the film the same person as he was at the beginning, save for the physical transformation from the serum. It would have been interesting to challenge his tendency to take things in his own hands and his belief that his moral code is beyond reproach, but this never happens in the movie or either of the sequels. Cap is always doing the right thing, nothing ever happens that makes him question his own moral compass, and his actions never seem to have any averse consequences. Yes, he gets a few of his fellow heroes imprisoned on the Raft in Civil War, but he busts them right out at the end of that film.

I love Evans as Cap, don't get me wrong. I think he absolutely nailed the character, he gets the nobility of Steve Rogers down pat. It just feels like the writers could have done a lot more with him, especially when you compare his debut movie to the other phase 1 films. Tony is challenged to open his eyes to how his company really works and what the weapons that gave him his fortune are being used for. Thor is challenged to recognize what an arrogant douche he is and how unprepared he is for the throne. Cap never really gets that moment to question himself.

I agree with most of this.

Regarding TFA, I agree with many that the film seems to lose its way after Steve formally becomes Cap. The hard part with writing that film is that they needed to wrap Cap's origin and entire WWII career into one movie, so that they could get to the ending they needed. As a result, the ending was on point but the montaged campaign against the Red Skull and Hydra was highly unsatisfying. The RS himself ended up unsatisfying, which is very disappointing.

One thing that hurt the movie version of the character IMO is that Steve was never really given a life outside of the superheroics. In the comics, he's held a variety of jobs, including fireman, law enforcement, etc. He's also a talented artist, and that's what he was doing before he got involved with Project Rebirth.

The comics eventually dispensed with the secret identity. So if the films didn't want to go there, fine, but the comics still wrote him as a serial monogamist, and it's been through these relationships that some interesting character stuff has come. In the films after TFA, he only gets some flirting with the BW that was never going to go anywhere, and some super-rushed stuff with Sharon that doesn't feel real or organic.

Perhaps there wasn't much room to explore Steve's relationships and life within the MCU, but I think that simply underlines how the character was done a disservice by the cinematic universe setup. His solo films were 'Avengers X.5' vehicles setting up other films. So maybe I've been too hard on Evans. Maybe it's not even Marvel's fault, exactly. Maybe it's just a character that would have been more interesting in a old-style solo franchise, with more room to breathe, villains at the appropriate power level, etc.

I think Cap 1 is a gorgeous movie. The sets, costumes, cast, etc is all really well done. Its a more complex movie than most of the other early films. It does seem to lack that umph to get it over the top tho. I think part of the reason is that we don't really care about many of the other characters lol. We know they don't last beyond the film (at least didn't expect to see Red Skull again), so you don't get too attached to them.

But I would say not until Guardians do you see a better shot movie.

Of course, it's better that he wasn't a policeman or fireman - both occupations are unsuitable for pre-Cap Steve, due to his lack of physicality.

Those jobs were modern era, post-serum. He had a secret identity and a life as Steve Rogers, that was the point. He doesn’t need the SI, but the movie wasn’t grounded in ways that the comics version has been.

 KTG17 wrote:
I think Cap 1 is a gorgeous movie. The sets, costumes, cast, etc is all really well done. Its a more complex movie than most of the other early films. It does seem to lack that umph to get it over the top tho. I think part of the reason is that we don't really care about many of the other characters lol. We know they don't last beyond the film (at least didn't expect to see Red Skull again), so you don't get too attached to them.

But I would say not until Guardians do you see a better shot movie.

I still think the big issue is the villan - not only is the Red skull just not very impressive but it tries (and fails totally) to convince us that he and Hydra is more evil than the Nazis - which is never going to work. Especially when they are shown to be so ineffective against pretty much everyone they encounter.

Its interesting to compare to Wonder Woman which I think works much better.

I agree with the OP on the Stark / Dr. Strange interaction, that was awesome

I was disappointed by the movie overall, but I think I just had sky-high expectations from the reviews. I am looking forward to seeing what was the reason Dr. Strange chose this future out of all the others, though - that was definitely the most intriguing part of the movie

 RiTides wrote:
I agree with the OP on the Stark / Dr. Strange interaction, that was awesome

I was disappointed by the movie overall, but I think I just had sky-high expectations from the reviews. I am looking forward to seeing what was the reason Dr. Strange chose this future out of all the others, though - that was definitely the most intriguing part of the movie

On my first viewing, I liked it in a 'for-what-it-was' way...in other words, something more like episodic TV than a traditional movie format. I like it a little less with repeat viewing.

So is Proxima Midnight the sister of Steppenwolf? The CGI had that same bad unfinished look. It's odd they even went CGI with the character.

 Mysterio wrote:
I didn't follow that storyline all that closely, so thanks for the synopsis - it actually sounds better than I thought it was!

Is it available in a TPB? (At least the overarching story issues)

And - what is Hydra Cap called now?

(Or is he a new Baron Zemo or...someone else?)

If its not in trade yet it should be soon. I think its call secret empire or some gak? At least the revealed hydra cap controlled country chapter of it is.

Dont know if hydra cap has an alias. I believe he has a hydra skull/tenticles tatooed on his chest.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mysterio wrote:
I didn't follow that storyline all that closely, so thanks for the synopsis - it actually sounds better than I thought it was!

Is it available in a TPB? (At least the overarching story issues)

And - what is Hydra Cap called now?

(Or is he a new Baron Zemo or...someone else?)

If its not in trade yet it should be soon. I think its call secret empire or some gak? At least the revealed hydra cap controlled country chapter of it is.

Dont know if hydra cap has an alias. I believe he has a hydra skull/tenticles tatooed on his chest.

Interesting that he's still (Hydra) Captain "America" Steve!

And yes, the TPB is available right now!

 Mr Morden wrote:
For me one of the weakest marvel films was Cap A 1 - although thats not a problem with Evans but a terrible villian and bad handling of Hydra.

Completely agree. Whilst Iron Man 3 is the only MCU film I actively dislike, The First Avenger is probably the one I like the least. Watchable, sure, but once he becomes Cap and we get past the very clever war bonds montage it just falls off.

Huge Weaving is just taking great big bites out of the scenery, and totally ruins it for me, his plan makes no sense and the ending is lame.

It's not awful, it's just not good.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mysterio wrote:
I didn't follow that storyline all that closely, so thanks for the synopsis - it actually sounds better than I thought it was!

Is it available in a TPB? (At least the overarching story issues)

And - what is Hydra Cap called now?

(Or is he a new Baron Zemo or...someone else?)

If its not in trade yet it should be soon. I think its call secret empire or some gak? At least the revealed hydra cap controlled country chapter of it is.

Dont know if hydra cap has an alias. I believe he has a hydra skull/tenticles tatooed on his chest.

Don’t think it’s actually a tattoo, but just something he painted on occasionally.

Something really interesting about the Hydra Cap storyline was that it ran concurrent with the Civil War II storyline, but in the CW he wasn’t depicted as evil. He was his traditional good guy self. Then when you read Cap you’d get some internal monologues and see stuff he was doing behind his back during those same scenes and was protrayed as manipulating the others into fighting. I enjoyed that aspect of it all.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
For me one of the weakest marvel films was Cap A 1 - although thats not a problem with Evans but a terrible villian and bad handling of Hydra.

Completely agree. Whilst Iron Man 3 is the only MCU film I actively dislike, The First Avenger is probably the one I like the least. Watchable, sure, but once he becomes Cap and we get past the very clever war bonds montage it just falls off.

Huge Weaving is just taking great big bites out of the scenery, and totally ruins it for me, his plan makes no sense and the ending is lame.

It's not awful, it's just not good.

Actually on that now as part of my ‘all the films’ binge.

I see where people are coming from, but I enjoy those things. And in terms of scenery chewing glory, I also seriously enjoyed Fish Mooney in Gotham!

My only real complaint was Cap 1 is the ending. Nothing about it feels like it follows the film before it and really feels like a bunch of stuff that needs to happen for the sequels to happen. The actual setup is great, but as soon as Cap gets on the plane, it feels like the movie doesn't know how to get to where it needs to go.

 LunarSol wrote:
My only real complaint was Cap 1 is the ending. Nothing about it feels like it follows the film before it and really feels like a bunch of stuff that needs to happen for the sequels to happen. The actual setup is great, but as soon as Cap gets on the plane, it feels like the movie doesn't know how to get to where it needs to go.

Like I said, the writers had a thankless job. They had to cover pre-serum Steve and the origin, cover his WWII exploits, get him into the ice, and introduce him to the modern era. There's *far* too much ground to cover in the back half of the film. Thanks studio-driven cinematic universe!

It breaks down and breathes better as two films:

1 - Lighter of the two films. Pre-serum Cap (smidge more time there). Origin. Face off against RS or Zemo in first big adventure as CA. Good guys win, but the war continues.

2 - Darker film. Deep into WWII now. Cap and Howling Commandos kicking butt (the HC get more screen time here) and victory seems certain. Big villain #2 (Zemo or RS) has big scheme to pull out the war in favor of the Axis. Then gets Bucky killed. Sinks in that good guys might lose. Cap brought low. Cap digs deep, fights back against villain and wins, but ends up in the ice saving the day. Wakes up decades later.

This gives more room for more and better action sequences. Also gives more time to develop things with Peggy Carter.