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 =Angel= wrote:

bibotot wrote:
I am getting the feeling this particular faction is very unpopluar.

Tau broke the game from their inception by having stronger basic weapons than the Space Marines. In an edition where basic weapons had been toned down so that the bolter performed well against shuriken catapults and had advantages against shootas, the Tau walked in with a strength 5 rifle, previously the domain of heavy weapons which were immobile or mounted on vehicles.
Bolters were supposed to be a +1 gun, now Tau had a +2 gun, with extended range.

Having a racial immunity to chaos corruption in 40k is like having all the lights on in a horror movie- its just not the same atmosphere.The tau just don't fit in 40k for that reason, their struggles are purely military and don't involve any deeper consequences for them. For a human to recover an artifact of unknown provenenace- he risks chaos possession, opening warpgates to hell, simply going mad from some alien influence or revelation. The tau just sit there in their labcoats, smelling like day old sushi, treating it like a rock they're studying.

In other words, they are boring and stale compared to 'ancient alien skeleton robots trying to steal your flesh' or 'elf aliens with crystals and psychic powers trying to avoid being eaten by an elder god' . They belong in battletech, a game of robot fights between conevntional space empires.

I personally find the concept of chaos to be rather dumb, and so i like this aspect of the tau. The tau are a break from the atmosphere of "everyone is an ignorant idiot".

 Peregrine wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Bolters were supposed to be a +1 gun, now Tau had a +2 gun, with extended range.

Surprise, surprise, the dedicated shooting army with a focus on elite units has a better gun than the "do everything adequately" army. Why should space marines have a better gun and have better melee ability, aside from space marine fanboyism?

Because this isn't a game of symmetrical gameplay? Space Marines being more than double the cost of a Tau warrior is probably a good reason why to begin with. And I'm the first person to call out SM players b.s. when I see it.

You know, I don't even have a strong feeling on this matter, and it's possible he may even be wrong, but it's your condescending attitude in every post that immediately makes the opposing views to your own feel like they are coming from a much more rational place, and yours from one of an irrepressible need for conflict and to be a contrarian. I should know, I used to do the same when I was younger, and thankfully I grew out of it. When will you?

I have a huge tau army that I don't even play anymore. I do not enjoy it for some reason. I can't exactly put my finger on it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I have a huge tau army that I don't even play anymore. I do not enjoy it for some reason. I can't exactly put my finger on it.

Probably as pointed out the repitiveness of the army with over constant staples?

 SHUPPET wrote:
InControl summed it up well recently... The army has the least interaction of all races. This is one thing in itself, it also ATTRACTS the kind of person who doesn't want to play an interactive game, and just wants to roll dice and blow up your models. This also leads hand in hand with the type of people to get salty if you force them to interact and they can't keep up. Not all Tau players are like this, some are very competent and incredibly skilled players who wield Tau to then full extent of their playskill, and I've seen some of the best ones give out verbal backhands to nobodies online trying to do that stereotypical Tau thing of acting like their army is on struggle street, and it's quite a humorous sight. But these people leave a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth for Tau - it's the go-to low-skill army for beginners looking for easy wins, and I don't find it at all surprising that so many people dislike Tau's inclusion in 40k.

Eh. Tau at least have a whole lot of mobile units. If you want a truly uninteractive gunline army then look no further than pure Cadian IG lists. Most of the army will be sitting still all game to re-roll those 1s to hit, and maybe try to grab an objective or two with 'Movex3!' at the end of the game. That's not something you can do with Tau Commanders, Fire Warriors or stuff like the Y'vahra.

I like Tau... it's just that I like Imperium, Deldar, and Nids more. The only reason I haven't started collecting them is due to time and other projects I should be finishing.


I really don't understand the idea of hating a faction so much that people lash out at players of said faction. That doesn't seem healthy.

 Kelligula wrote:
I like Tau... it's just that I like Imperium, Deldar, and Nids more. The only reason I haven't started collecting them is due to time and other projects I should be finishing.


I really don't understand the idea of hating a faction so much that people lash out at players of said faction. That doesn't seem healthy.

I like Tau as well. I think you got your bottom sentence back to front. For a lot of people, it's the Tau players that make them the race.

 Peregrine wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Bolters were supposed to be a +1 gun, now Tau had a +2 gun, with extended range.

Surprise, surprise, the dedicated shooting army with a focus on elite units has a better gun than the "do everything adequately" army. Why should space marines have a better gun and have better melee ability, aside from space marine fanboyism?

Having a racial immunity to chaos corruption in 40k is like having all the lights on in a horror movie- its just not the same atmosphere.

So Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, GK, and probably something else I'm forgetting, those factions aren't ok either? Is 40k not 40k anymore when you're playing against those armies?

The tau just don't fit in 40k for that reason, their struggles are purely military and don't involve any deeper consequences for them.

Only because you narrowly define "struggles" in terms of what you do with an ancient artifact you find. Tau have a significant part in the story if you bother to see it.

Marines are jack of all trades. They aren't meant to be, by design. They were intended to be an elite army, whose line troops are the equal of other armies specialists. The idea of a 'better gun' is silly- the game hovers around toughness and strength 3, with 2 being weaker and 4 being tougher/stronger than normal. Values above this are reflective of monsters or more powerful weapons like plague marines, ogryns, daemon princes, heavy bolters and upwards.

The D6 system considers 4+ an average roll, 3+ an easy roll and 5+ a tough roll. 2+ is as certain as a dice roll gets without rerolls and its reserved for Terminator armour or humans getting hit with anti tank weaponry. Tau rolling 2+ to kill guard in the open (or behind cover with markerlights) is a travesty.

The eldar are the most advanced race and their line soldiers don't get strength 5.


As regards immunity to chaos, Tyranids don't have it, Orks don't have it. Necrons have it, because they are an eldritch horror to rival chaos. Humans don't have it, and the existence of a human faction which is warded against chaos doesn't change that, when they are specifically geared to fight chaos. Tau simply side step the issue with a get out of jail free card.

Tau were intended to be a living, character race like mankind, the Eldar, the Orks to an extent, as opposed to an ancient or unstoppable evil like the crons or nids. They could trade with the other races, had diplomats and leader class and were well placed to be interesting.

The removal of their vulnerability to chaos removes the most pressing concern of a race in the 41st millenium. 40k is an elf a human and an orc fighting in a locked room that is slowly filling with water and we are asked to give a damn about the fishman in the corner who throws rocks occasionally.

I think the nids are a more pressing concern.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
InControl summed it up well recently... The army has the least interaction of all races. This is one thing in itself, it also ATTRACTS the kind of person who doesn't want to play an interactive game, and just wants to roll dice and blow up your models. This also leads hand in hand with the type of people to get salty if you force them to interact and they can't keep up. Not all Tau players are like this, some are very competent and incredibly skilled players who wield Tau to then full extent of their playskill, and I've seen some of the best ones give out verbal backhands to nobodies online trying to do that stereotypical Tau thing of acting like their army is on struggle street, and it's quite a humorous sight. But these people leave a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth for Tau - it's the go-to low-skill army for beginners looking for easy wins, and I don't find it at all surprising that so many people dislike Tau's inclusion in 40k.

This sounds incredibly gatekeepy, but its because those people don't play them correctly. IG are your stand and shoot army. Tau are more scoot and shoot. It's been part of their tactics since day 1 with it even mentioned in the first 3rd ed codex (Mont'ka).

This was why I always loved playing my Farsight list- So many people were unprepared for playing a Tau army that got right up in your face as they were far too used to seeing someone sit at the back of the board with their mobile army that they didn't quite know how to handle it, but in a far more refreshing way as they were finally playing against a Tau army the way it was meant to be played, with them getting up into middle range of you for some hefty rapid firing then using Jetpacks to back off. Eventually either you wipe out whatever you're shooting at and/or in the process the game of cat and mouse catches up with you and they have finally caught those slippery bastards.

Loved playing that army, it was a challenge to play but satisfying to use.

Awesome. This is exactly how I was aiming to go. Happy to hear that it's feasible.

Reading all this thread, it's really making me want to get a shift on building up Tau. Finishing off some skellies tonight... then straight onto some fire warriors!

 SHUPPET wrote:
Because this isn't a game of symmetrical gameplay? Space Marines being more than double the cost of a Tau warrior is probably a good reason why to begin with. And I'm the first person to call out SM players b.s. when I see it.

Point costs are irrelevant here. The objection was to having a better-than-bolter gun, period, not that Tau troops were too cheap. It's blatant space marine fanboyism and expecting space marines to be the best at everything just because they're space marines.

You know, I don't even have a strong feeling on this matter, and it's possible he may even be wrong, but it's your condescending attitude in every post that immediately makes the opposing views to your own feel like they are coming from a much more rational place, and yours from one of an irrepressible need for conflict and to be a contrarian. I should know, I used to do the same when I was younger, and thankfully I grew out of it. When will you?

I'd give a proper response to this, but I don't want another forum vacation so I'll make it nice and polite: everything in this reflects very poorly upon you, and lowers my already-low opinion of you even further.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:
They were intended to be an elite army, whose line troops are the equal of other armies specialists.

Maybe way back in second edition, but that isn't true anymore.

And remember, tactical marines are more than just a bolter. Tau have STR 5 guns, but that's it. Space marines have the ability to take lascannons and melta guns to kill tanks with their troops, can split their squads or keep them together and have MSU or large units depending on which is better for the mission, and don't auto-die in melee. You're obsessively focusing on one part of the stat line and missing the bigger picture.

the game hovers around toughness and strength 3

It really doesn't. Marines being, by far, the most common army means that 4s are average, 3s are below average, and 2s are pathetic conscript hordes that are expected to do nothing.

And yes, Tau guns have STR 5, normally reserved for heavy weapons. That's the whole point, Tau have superior technology and a one-dimensional focus on shooting so their basic rifles are equal to human heavy weapons. The only argument against it is RAR SPACE MARINES ARE BESTEST and insisting that nothing can be better than a bolter. The reality is that bolters just aren't a very good weapon.

As regards immunity to chaos, Tyranids don't have it, Orks don't have it. Necrons have it, because they are an eldritch horror to rival chaos. Humans don't have it, and the existence of a human faction which is warded against chaos doesn't change that, when they are specifically geared to fight chaos. Tau simply side step the issue with a get out of jail free card.

Lolwut? Can you give some examples of chaos Tyranids or Orks? And how does Necrons being a "horror" make their immunity to chaos ok? You're just handwaving away the problem and insisting that the chaos immunity for the factions you like is ok, and somehow magically different from the chaos immunity for the faction you dislike.

The removal of their vulnerability to chaos removes the most pressing concern of a race in the 41st millenium.

Unless of course you're one of the races that has inherent immunity to chaos. In fact, given that the most common race (by an obscenely huge margin) is chaos-immune orks it's actually correct to say that the most pressing concern of a race in 40k is not chaos. On top of that this is a very narrow way of looking at things. Chaos is part of 40k, but it is not the entirety of 40k. There is plenty of interesting conflict to be had even when chaos is not a factor.

40k is an elf a human and an orc fighting in a locked room that is slowly filling with water and we are asked to give a damn about the fishman in the corner who throws rocks occasionally.

You are completely missing the point of the Tau, and TBH the setting in general. In very simple terms 40k is the story of the Imperium and how it dies. The various non-Imperium factions represent its possible ends:

Chaos is the enemy within, impossible to defeat and strengthened by every win the Imperium earns. No matter how successful the Imperium is, even if it magically defeats all other threats, it will still be corrupted and destroyed.

Tyrands and Orks are the numberless horde. No matter how many you kill there are always more of them. No victory can ever be permanent, at best the Imperium can temporarily hold off the advancing horde and trade planets to buy time for the rest of its citizens. Eventually the Imperium will run out of resources and be overwhelmed.

Eldar and Necrons are the ancient evil. Humanity is but a mere child on the galactic scale, and could be crushed at any time by powers they can barely comprehend.

Tau are the rising threat. As the Imperium remains stagnant the Tau continue to grow and advance, and eventually a single gun drone will be able to annihilate a whole chapter of space marines. The Imperium must crush the Tau now to prevent this inevitable fate, but to plan for the future would mean taking resources away from the immediate crisis and dying anyway. And even if they wipe out the Tau the Tau are symbolic of an uncountable number of minor threats, any of which could rise to deliver that fatal blow.

To insist that the Tau have no purpose in the 40k story is to miss a significant part of the setting.

lare2 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
InControl summed it up well recently... The army has the least interaction of all races. This is one thing in itself, it also ATTRACTS the kind of person who doesn't want to play an interactive game, and just wants to roll dice and blow up your models. This also leads hand in hand with the type of people to get salty if you force them to interact and they can't keep up. Not all Tau players are like this, some are very competent and incredibly skilled players who wield Tau to then full extent of their playskill, and I've seen some of the best ones give out verbal backhands to nobodies online trying to do that stereotypical Tau thing of acting like their army is on struggle street, and it's quite a humorous sight. But these people leave a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth for Tau - it's the go-to low-skill army for beginners looking for easy wins, and I don't find it at all surprising that so many people dislike Tau's inclusion in 40k.

This sounds incredibly gatekeepy, but its because those people don't play them correctly. IG are your stand and shoot army. Tau are more scoot and shoot. It's been part of their tactics since day 1 with it even mentioned in the first 3rd ed codex (Mont'ka).

This was why I always loved playing my Farsight list- So many people were unprepared for playing a Tau army that got right up in your face as they were far too used to seeing someone sit at the back of the board with their mobile army that they didn't quite know how to handle it, but in a far more refreshing way as they were finally playing against a Tau army the way it was meant to be played, with them getting up into middle range of you for some hefty rapid firing then using Jetpacks to back off. Eventually either you wipe out whatever you're shooting at and/or in the process the game of cat and mouse catches up with you and they have finally caught those slippery bastards.

Loved playing that army, it was a challenge to play but satisfying to use.

Awesome. This is exactly how I was aiming to go. Happy to hear that it's feasible.

Reading all this thread, it's really making me want to get a shift on building up Tau. Finishing off some skellies tonight... then straight onto some fire warriors!

Farsight is extremely viable and has had great tournament success. It's definitely a viable way to play the race, it takes a bit more finesse, but definitely don't let anything discourage you from doing it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
You know, I don't even have a strong feeling on this matter, and it's possible he may even be wrong, but it's your condescending attitude in every post that immediately makes the opposing views to your own feel like they are coming from a much more rational place, and yours from one of an irrepressible need for conflict and to be a contrarian. I should know, I used to do the same when I was younger, and thankfully I grew out of it. When will you?

I'd give a proper response to this, but I don't want another forum vacation so I'll make it nice and polite: everything in this reflects very poorly upon you, and lowers my already-low opinion of you even further.

Nothing about it reflects poorly on me. Being able to look back and recognise when I was behaving like a prat, is part of being a getting older, and being a human being. It's certainly even easier to recognise when someone else is doing the same thing. I just think for your own benefit, you might want to change your confrontational tone when discussing... well, everything you ever discuss really. It's just unnecessary and immediately turns people against you. You mention your personal opinion of me, are you at all self-aware concerning the opinion a very large percentage of this forum has concerning you? I've literally heard people... jest about you IRL when talking about dakkadakka as a community, and I live in Australia. I can understand the snark if you are deep in argument with someone who is being stubborn or irrational for pages deep, but you just kick open the door the second you see something you disagree with, shouting that everyone is a fanboy and dripping every post in hostile sarcasm before even trying to convince them of your perspective, it's like dude. If you have the stronger supporting logic you will actually be able to convince people of your perspective if you just framed it a little less hostile. I'm guilty of it myself at times, so I'm telling you right now as someone who knows - it'll be to your benefit (you will also get less of those vacations ).

 Peregrine wrote:
The objection was to having a better-than-bolter gun, period, not that Tau troops were too cheap. It's blatant space marine fanboyism and expecting space marines to be the best at everything just because they're space marines.

You are attempting to mind read. Its not fanboyism, its how a D6 system should work. 'Better than bolter' guns existed in plasmaguns and other special weapons, but they were not line weapons.

Small arms on infantry squads are differentiated by rate of fire and strength as well as range. Of these, strength 3 is the baseline because it wounds humans and eldar on a 4. It wounds Orks /Marines on a 5 because Orks and marines are +1 tough. This was the consistent logic that had eldar weapons be +1 for being advanced and bolt/work weapons be +1 for being especially brutal.

When I say 'it broke the game' I don't mean the game became unplayable. I mean that the internal consistency of being shot by bullets, lasbeams or something heavier (+1) was broken by a basic infantryman wounding baseline infantry on a 2+, as if they had been hit by a basilisk. There's no further to move on the D6 scale, 2+ is the very limit.

Maybe way back in second edition, but that isn't true anymore.

You're obsessively focusing on one part of the stat line and missing the bigger picture.

Explicitly stated in 3rd end, the edition where Tau were released. It isn't true anymore because the game design failed- when marined became the baseline, any claims of marines being elite were lost. Guard are supposed to be a competent force but this would not be felt until the introduction of orders- a patch on what had become a 'horde army'.

And I'm focusing on the most indicative issue with the Tau mechanically, for brevity. I'm ignoring jump shoot jump and markerlights to focus on the tell tale sign that something is wrong- it doesn't work within the system as created.

Tau as designed have cool guns in infantry teams with no special weapons, giving them a unique design philosophy in a game about squads with weapon upgrades. They get their support weapons elsewhere, and that's fine- Orks also rely on other units than the Boy mob to get things done.

Lolwut? Can you give some examples of chaos Tyranids or Orks? And how does Necrons being a "horror" make their immunity to chaos ok? You're just handwaving away the problem and insisting that the chaos immunity for the factions you like is ok, and somehow magically different from the chaos immunity for the faction you dislike.

Genestealer Cults could take chaos marks in past editions. Orks of Khorne. Codex Daemon hunters had artwork of Nurgle Orks and explained how that can occur in detail.

It isn't focussed on in models art or background because it is boring to explore. They are villains dujour- the villains fighting among themselves is not as interesting as free factions fighting those villains. The corruption of a human (or tau!)soul or damnation of an Eldar is an interesting threat. The murder robots or murder dinosaurs becoming marginally more evil is not a page turner.

Yes Tau exist as the rising threat. But as long as they have no spiritual struggles or threats other than physical, they will remain an NPC faction that exists only to threaten the Imperium, rather than a faction with spiritual goals and hopes like the Eldar.

 =Angel= wrote:

Lolwut? Can you give some examples of chaos Tyranids or Orks? And how does Necrons being a "horror" make their immunity to chaos ok? You're just handwaving away the problem and insisting that the chaos immunity for the factions you like is ok, and somehow magically different from the chaos immunity for the faction you dislike.

Genestealer Cults could take chaos marks in past editions. Orks of Khorne. Codex Daemon hunters had artwork of Nurgle Orks and explained how that can occur in detail.

just wanted to contribute image of this



there was an entire ruleset for it

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/09/genestealer-cult-chaos-awesome.html

 =Angel= wrote:
Of these, strength 3 is the baseline because it wounds humans and eldar on a 4.

Except it isn't, because STR 3 guns are rare and only found on cheap cannon fodder units. The most common strength is 4. Your arbitrary definitions about what the "standard" roll is supposed to be are purely your own invention.

When I say 'it broke the game' I don't mean the game became unplayable. I mean that the internal consistency of being shot by bullets, lasbeams or something heavier (+1) was broken by a basic infantryman wounding baseline infantry on a 2+, as if they had been hit by a basilisk. There's no further to move on the D6 scale, 2+ is the very limit.

What's your point? Being hit by a heavy bolter wounded a guardsman on a 2+ just like they'd been hit by that same Basilisk, so by your argument a heavy bolter should not have been STR 5. The more appropriate conclusion is that pulse rifles wounding on a 2+ represents the fact that once you're killed in one shot there's no point in distinguishing from a fatal (or at least incapacitating) bullet wound that is a bit nastier than the average bullet wound and being blown into bloody scraps. From a rules point of view in a single-battle game it makes no difference whether your casualties are temporarily incapacitated or obliterated, dead is dead.

Explicitly stated in 3rd end, the edition where Tau were released. It isn't true anymore because the game design failed- when marined became the baseline, any claims of marines being elite were lost. Guard are supposed to be a competent force but this would not be felt until the introduction of orders- a patch on what had become a 'horde army'.

Well, ok, I'm not really seeing the relevance of 3rd edition to the question of why Tau aren't popular today. Most current players weren't playing back then, so couldn't have been influenced by 3rd edition design rules that haven't been true for decades.

Tau as designed have cool guns in infantry teams with no special weapons, giving them a unique design philosophy in a game about squads with weapon upgrades. They get their support weapons elsewhere, and that's fine- Orks also rely on other units than the Boy mob to get things done.

You're so close to getting it. Tau have great basic rifles but no special weapons. If you take away the superior basic guns and keep the absence of special weapons then you end up with a unit in a shooting-focused army that is just plain bad at shooting.

Genestealer Cults could take chaos marks in past editions. Orks of Khorne. Codex Daemon hunters had artwork of Nurgle Orks and explained how that can occur in detail.

Do you have any examples from the modern game that aren't relics of decades-old fluff that no longer exists?

Yes Tau exist as the rising threat. But as long as they have no spiritual struggles or threats other than physical, they will remain an NPC faction that exists only to threaten the Imperium, rather than a faction with spiritual goals and hopes like the Eldar.

Your obsessive focus on "spiritual threats" is missing the point entirely. Orks don't have spiritual threats or goals either, Tyranids don't even have a concept of spirituality, etc. And yet somehow space marines vs. orks is still a traditional and popular fight.

As for the Tau not having spiritual goals, again, that's just your obsessively narrow definition. Tau have goals and hopes even if they don't involve space-Jesus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
there was an entire ruleset for it

There was also a half-eldar space marine and various other questionable ideas that no longer exist in the current fluff.

 Peregrine wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
there was an entire ruleset for it

There was also a half-eldar space marine and various other questionable ideas that no longer exist in the current fluff.

I'm not saying he's right about it being the case currently. I was just posting more information for anyone curious about what he refers to

I have elaborated why Tau were contentious from inception, in 3rd ed, mechanically and in lore.

You have noted that Marines are now mechanically the standard and explained why you think Tau guns should be superior to the standard. You also note that human guardsmen are fodder units for having st3 guns.

You are conceding every point I have made regarding how pushing rifles to S5 causes elite stats (4) to be less valuable relatively. Most recently, guardians were pushed to BS4 because of this need to meet the 'standard'.

The game is worse, not better for this kind of stat creep, to the point that there are honest to goodness custodians and primarchs in the game. Nu marines have an extra wound, rendering the pulse rifle half as effective and bolt rifles that approach the pulse rifle in lethality.

Lore wise, again, there is a difference between anti-chaos and ignoring chaos entirely, to play a different game. Tau aren't part of the universe proper, in the same way that an D&D player who refuses to interact with magic in any form isn't really playing with his fellows.

Going back to the original question, I absolutely loathe the Tau aesthetic.

Outside of their suits, they just seem like really boring, generic aliens.

As for their actual suits, the best way I can describe them is that they look like transformers toys that don't actually transform. You know how transformers toys often looked weird, because they needed to have parts that folded in/out or vehicle-parts that they couldn't quite hide? That's the vibe I get from tau suits.

I mean, look at the battlesuit in the Coalition Command and tell me it doesn't look like it's supposed to transform into some sort of weird jetfighter:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Tau-Empire-Coalition-Command


Anyway, I know that this is entirely subjective, but this sort of aesthetic just doesn't appeal to me. Probably doesn't help that I've never been a fan of mecha-type stuff.


In terms of gameplay, they can definitely be rather one-dimensional. However, I think their least fun thing was Jump-Shoot-Jump. Shooting stuff and then jumping behind LoS-blocking terrain to prevent most/all return fire did not make for a fun game. Thankfully, this has largely been removed in 8th, but I imagine many people still associate Tau with this.


Another possibility as to why people dislike Tau is that a young, naive race idolising Communism might hit a little too close to home for some.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Bolters were supposed to be a +1 gun, now Tau had a +2 gun, with extended range.

Surprise, surprise, the dedicated shooting army with a focus on elite units has a better gun than the "do everything adequately" army. Why should space marines have a better gun and have better melee ability, aside from space marine fanboyism?

Having a racial immunity to chaos corruption in 40k is like having all the lights on in a horror movie- its just not the same atmosphere.

So Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, GK, and probably something else I'm forgetting, those factions aren't ok either? Is 40k not 40k anymore when you're playing against those armies?

The tau just don't fit in 40k for that reason, their struggles are purely military and don't involve any deeper consequences for them.

Only because you narrowly define "struggles" in terms of what you do with an ancient artifact you find. Tau have a significant part in the story if you bother to see it.

Marines are jack of all trades. They aren't meant to be, by design. They were intended to be an elite army, whose line troops are the equal of other armies specialists. The idea of a 'better gun' is silly- the game hovers around toughness and strength 3, with 2 being weaker and 4 being tougher/stronger than normal. Values above this are reflective of monsters or more powerful weapons like plague marines, ogryns, daemon princes, heavy bolters and upwards.

The D6 system considers 4+ an average roll, 3+ an easy roll and 5+ a tough roll. 2+ is as certain as a dice roll gets without rerolls and its reserved for Terminator armour or humans getting hit with anti tank weaponry. Tau rolling 2+ to kill guard in the open (or behind cover with markerlights) is a travesty.

The eldar are the most advanced race and their line soldiers don't get strength 5.


As regards immunity to chaos, Tyranids don't have it, Orks don't have it. Necrons have it, because they are an eldritch horror to rival chaos. Humans don't have it, and the existence of a human faction which is warded against chaos doesn't change that, when they are specifically geared to fight chaos. Tau simply side step the issue with a get out of jail free card.

Tau were intended to be a living, character race like mankind, the Eldar, the Orks to an extent, as opposed to an ancient or unstoppable evil like the crons or nids. They could trade with the other races, had diplomats and leader class and were well placed to be interesting.

The removal of their vulnerability to chaos removes the most pressing concern of a race in the 41st millenium. 40k is an elf a human and an orc fighting in a locked room that is slowly filling with water and we are asked to give a damn about the fishman in the corner who throws rocks occasionally.

Have you any examples of a significant number of tyranid creatures (not a few random weapon-bioforms cut off from the hive fleet) getting corrupted by Chaos? They project the shadow in the warp.

Also, there are a number of stories of orks trapped on daemon worlds not becoming corrupted by Chaos. This is because Gork and Mork are known to be physically superior to any single chaos god.

Let's also not forget: Harlequins (protected by Cegorach), Dark Eldar/craftworld eldar (just get consumed by slaanesh instantly if they fall to chaos), Grey Knights - do you hate all these factions?

I was 15 when Tau were released and I hated them instantly. No one in my group liked them either thankfully so we never really had to acknowledge their existence. Their fluff and initial rules and design just seemed antithetical to what we liked about 40k.

My friends played marines and chaos; power armour is cool and playing an army of the elite guys fighting for humanity’s survival was interesting. I, and others, played Eldar because they had the most advanced technology and a bitter backstory. A friend liked Tyranids because they are a massive threat that no one understands that will eventually take over the galaxy.

Tau takes a big dump on this. All of a sudden our GW Overlords delivers a new race with grav tanks, better weaponry than Eldar/Marines, guns of multiple flavours to make everyone jealous, but a book and new kits, and, worst of all, a “good guy” to potentially inherit the universe (there wasn’t much dark stuff insinuated about the tau back then from what I can remember).

“They’re weak, they can’t handle melee” well most of my eldar couldn’t exactly handle melee back then either and I had a ton of guardian defenders lol.

We stopped playing in 4th and apparently Tau have only gotten more deserving of hate in the years since.

Bremon wrote:
I was 15 when Tau were released and I hated them instantly. No one in my group liked them either thankfully so we never really had to acknowledge their existence. Their fluff and initial rules and design just seemed antithetical to what we liked about 40k.

My friends played marines and chaos; power armour is cool and playing an army of the elite guys fighting for humanity’s survival was interesting. I, and others, played Eldar because they had the most advanced technology and a bitter backstory. A friend liked Tyranids because they are a massive threat that no one understands that will eventually take over the galaxy.

Tau takes a big dump on this. All of a sudden our GW Overlords delivers a new race with grav tanks, better weaponry than Eldar/Marines, guns of multiple flavours to make everyone jealous, but a book and new kits, and, worst of all, a “good guy” to potentially inherit the universe (there wasn’t much dark stuff insinuated about the tau back then from what I can remember).

“They’re weak, they can’t handle melee” well most of my eldar couldn’t exactly handle melee back then either and I had a ton of guardian defenders lol.

We stopped playing in 4th and apparently Tau have only gotten more deserving of hate in the years since.

Show us on the space marine where the bad fire warrior touched you.

The hatred towards Tau for not being grimdark edgelords has always been kind of stupid. You know the sonic weapons were originally guitars with bolters built in and the genestealer cults used to drive around in limos right? Yes the Tau aesthetic looks out of place compared to the other races, that's intentional. They're a younger race that evolved without much interference from the other races, it'd be much weirder if hammerheads looked like they were based on a rhino. Not liking the look is perfectly fine but saying the look is ruining 40k is insane.

Complaints about playstyle and rules are perfectly valid though.

 IronBrand wrote:
Complaints about playstyle and rules are perfectly valid though.

Not a whole lot of fun going to a PUG and chasing bouncy-robots around while mobs of dudes sit at the back end of the field and just shoot everything to pieces.

Don't get me wrong, it's also not fun dealing with an Imperial Knight in a PUG unless you're aware of it, but that's what it is.

I've never seen a friendly, casual, fun private group that uses Tau.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
Complaints about playstyle and rules are perfectly valid though.

Not a whole lot of fun going to a PUG and chasing bouncy-robots around while mobs of dudes sit at the back end of the field and just shoot everything to pieces.

Don't get me wrong, it's also not fun dealing with an Imperial Knight in a PUG unless you're aware of it, but that's what it is.

I've never seen a friendly, casual, fun private group that uses Tau.

Yeah that's basically the reason why I haven't got any Tau stuff myself. I'd want a mechanised army in battlesuits and I'm not big on firewarriors. If I wanted something along the lines of firewarrior spam I'd go dark eldar and spam warriors in raiders instead. There are a couple players locally that play tau. I've only played one of them so far and it was basically just a blob of firewarriors. I still enjoyed our games because the opponent was a nice guy and we were just having chill games while chatting. But it is the sort of thing that can get old fast when all the games are so similar. Especially if the game is the only entertainment and there's no real conversation or anything.

 IronBrand wrote:

Bremon wrote:
I was 15 when Tau were released and I hated them instantly. No one in my group liked them either thankfully so we never really had to acknowledge their existence. Their fluff and initial rules and design just seemed antithetical to what we liked about 40k.

My friends played marines and chaos; power armour is cool and playing an army of the elite guys fighting for humanity’s survival was interesting. I, and others, played Eldar because they had the most advanced technology and a bitter backstory. A friend liked Tyranids because they are a massive threat that no one understands that will eventually take over the galaxy.

Tau takes a big dump on this. All of a sudden our GW Overlords delivers a new race with grav tanks, better weaponry than Eldar/Marines, guns of multiple flavours to make everyone jealous, but a book and new kits, and, worst of all, a “good guy” to potentially inherit the universe (there wasn’t much dark stuff insinuated about the tau back then from what I can remember).

“They’re weak, they can’t handle melee” well most of my eldar couldn’t exactly handle melee back then either and I had a ton of guardian defenders lol.

We stopped playing in 4th and apparently Tau have only gotten more deserving of hate in the years since.

Show us on the space marine where the bad fire warrior touched you.

The hatred towards Tau for not being grimdark edgelords has always been kind of stupid. You know the sonic weapons were originally guitars with bolters built in and the genestealer cults used to drive around in limos right? Yes the Tau aesthetic looks out of place compared to the other races, that's intentional. They're a younger race that evolved without much interference from the other races, it'd be much weirder if hammerheads looked like they were based on a rhino. Not liking the look is perfectly fine but saying the look is ruining 40k is insane.

Complaints about playstyle and rules are perfectly valid though.

How should I respond? The Fire Warrior touched my penis? I’m well aware that my opinion comes from the world view of a 15 year old from 2003. If you’d like to get off your high horse, and drop the condescension and snark, we could discuss more. My opinion is my opinion regardless of what you feel is “valid” or not. 3rd edition when Tau were introduced were already leaving a lot of the cartooniness of 2nd behind, Tau reintroduced it, and GW continued down a road that lead to, in my opinion (yes, opinion, valid or otherwise) that 40k has too many codexes and too many playable factions. My opinion on Tau isn’t as harsh today but I’d still lean towards saying they’re less than ideal and I’m clearly not alone in that line of thinking.

Bremon wrote:
How should I respond? The Fire Warrior touched my penis? I’m well aware that my opinion comes from the world view of a 15 year old from 2003. If you’d like to get off your high horse, and drop the condescension and snark, we could discuss more. My opinion is my opinion regardless of what you feel is “valid” or not. 3rd edition when Tau were introduced were already leaving a lot of the cartooniness of 2nd behind, Tau reintroduced it, and GW continued down a road that lead to, in my opinion (yes, opinion, valid or otherwise) that 40k has too many codexes and too many playable factions. My opinion on Tau isn’t as harsh today but I’d still lean towards saying they’re less than ideal and I’m clearly not alone in that line of thinking.

I'm coming more from a place of bemusement than condescension. I'm always confused by people saying things aren't grimdark enough when you look where the game came from. Especially so when people complain the space wolves are too cartoony for the setting now and that the tau aren't evil enough.

 IronBrand wrote:

Bremon wrote:
How should I respond? The Fire Warrior touched my penis? I’m well aware that my opinion comes from the world view of a 15 year old from 2003. If you’d like to get off your high horse, and drop the condescension and snark, we could discuss more. My opinion is my opinion regardless of what you feel is “valid” or not. 3rd edition when Tau were introduced were already leaving a lot of the cartooniness of 2nd behind, Tau reintroduced it, and GW continued down a road that lead to, in my opinion (yes, opinion, valid or otherwise) that 40k has too many codexes and too many playable factions. My opinion on Tau isn’t as harsh today but I’d still lean towards saying they’re less than ideal and I’m clearly not alone in that line of thinking.

I'm coming more from a place of bemusement than condescension. I'm always confused by people saying things aren't grimdark enough when you look where the game came from. Especially so when people complain the space wolves are too cartoony for the setting now and that the tau aren't evil enough.

Or that Tau are too anime despite the Imperium having angelic pretty boy swordsmen, magical girls supported by more girls in combat heels/corsets, giant mechs that have to "bond" with their pilot, magical girl from another land coming to save the main guy, drunken master brawlers, and literal catgirls. They even have a badguy who grows more powerful with every plot and is always defeated, but somehow gets away and had another secret true plan all along. It is a bit silly that it even matters in the first place...

 DominayTrix wrote:
Or that Tau are too anime despite the Imperium having angelic pretty boy swordsmen, magical girls supported by more girls in combat heels/corsets, giant mechs that have to "bond" with their pilot, magical girl from another land coming to save the main guy, drunken master brawlers, and literal catgirls. They even have a badguy who grows more powerful with every plot and is always defeated, but somehow gets away and had another secret true plan all along. It is a bit silly that it even matters in the first place...

It's not like the emperor wanted the ruinous power's attention or anything b-baka!

Actually Tau can fall to chaos, there was that one diplomat possesed by a daemon of tzeentch for exemple.

It is just not as feasible and interesting for daemons to possess Tau since they are a young race and have not yet fully developped their psychic abilities.

I like T'au a lot. When people complain that they just 'sit in a corner and shoot', 'never move' etc, they aren't complaining about the faction, they are complaining about the people they are playing with.

I run a whole range of different lists, Breachers in Devilfish, Triple flamer XV8's jumping about. Coldstar's with their insane movement speed. Kroot and their hounds for combat.

REMOVED, RULE #1 - BrookM

BrianDavion wrote:
there are also the annoying Tau fanboys, you guys know the ones, the ones who GENUINELY belive that the Tau are "good" and insist there is no "sinister subtext" and insist that the Tau could take on the IoM in a straight up fight because "their tech is so much better"
and yeah I've had people try to claim that.

wow, that's pretty bad. The Tau in [CURRENT_YEAR] are ants compared to the Imperium at large. The Tau probably have the greatest potential to dominate the galaxy long term, like another 10k years. If the nids don't eat everyone and the Imperium doesn't recover from it's stagnation.


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 =Angel= wrote:

The eldar are the most advanced race and their line soldiers don't get strength 5.

The eldar are the most advanced race in a lot of areas but not in every area. Their anti grav tech is better than everyone else's for sure. Tau are experts at weapons technology. That's what they do best. The Eldar have the webway, very good anti grav tech, and wraithbone. That's really about it, that's what they're good at. Tau's navigation technology is way behind them, but their weapons systems are far better and their defensive tech is often better.

If you compare their weapons in similar riles it's not just their regular small arms that are better than Eldar

Pulse Carbines are better than Shuriken catapults
Burst Cannons and SMS are arguably better than Shuriken Cannons
Railguns are better than Brightlances
Tau Plasma rifles are smaller and easier to use than Eldar ones(rapid fire instead of heavy d3)
Rail rifles and Sniper Drones are better than ranger rifles

Eldar do have handheld melta weapons, Tau only have suit mounted fusions so there's that.

Then you can consider a lot of guns that Eldar don't really have something analogous too.
HYMPs and Ion Rifle/CIBs for medium strength fire.
The host of big tau guns on suits Ghostkeel and larger
Pulse rifles, a long range infantry rifle
Pulse blasters, a short range infantry gun that's also better than a shuriken catapult.

Also consider other technology. Like Drones. Eldar are a dying race where every death is a blow to them, and yet they don't have even simple AI controlled drones like the Tau use everywhere. Wouldn't something like that be a huge priority for a dwindling race?

I think it's safe to say that the Eldar as they exist in 40k are not the most technologically advanced race. They used to be, but the Imperium also used to be incredibly advanced in science but aren't anymore. They developed true sentient AIs, robust STCs, and all kinds of amazing tech but now don't even know how their guns work.