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Shotgun wrote:
I had two rather large armies I was holding onto in the hopes that my son might like to pick it up once he got older. They are now being sold off to pay for other hobbies and it was once statement that he made that made it pretty clear to me.

He was reading about gators and said "Not only do I have to know what this army does, but I have to know what every other army does if I am going to know how to play this one."

That was pretty powerful to me, and fairly true. WM seems to have an over abundance of information you need about your opposing force in order to play your army effectively, and that is a -huge- amount of information a new player must overcome. Add in the constantly updated and changing rules system and CID with this game and its almost a job in an of itself if you want to play a game.

So your son wants to be a tournament player? Other wise there aren’t many TT games out there where you can memorize every armies special rules. . If he needs instant gratification maybe by him a elder army and talk his buddies into buying orks or GK so he can get the instant win.

 Chute82 wrote:

Shotgun wrote:
I had two rather large armies I was holding onto in the hopes that my son might like to pick it up once he got older. They are now being sold off to pay for other hobbies and it was once statement that he made that made it pretty clear to me.

He was reading about gators and said "Not only do I have to know what this army does, but I have to know what every other army does if I am going to know how to play this one."

That was pretty powerful to me, and fairly true. WM seems to have an over abundance of information you need about your opposing force in order to play your army effectively, and that is a -huge- amount of information a new player must overcome. Add in the constantly updated and changing rules system and CID with this game and its almost a job in an of itself if you want to play a game.

So your son wants to be a tournament player? Other wise there aren’t many TT games out there where you can memorize every armies special rules. . If he needs instant gratification maybe by him a elder army and talk his buddies into buying orks or GK so he can get the instant win.

And folks.wonder why no one new wants to start Warmachine/Hordes?
It's not about the instant win. It's just about being able to play competently. And I don't blame the kid as WM/H is a bloated mess.

I'm a long time player and unless you play this game to the exclusion of all other games, you're never going to be able to play competently.

To say that the special rules require a change in lifestyle is an understatement.

It's comments like these that make people think the WM community is antagonistic and hostile to anyone new.
The guy was just sharing what his son thought of learning the game and he's not wrong. However, if you guys want to grow the community rather than shrink it, a little better attitude towards a guy who was about to bring in a new player would help.

I wasn't going to mention that aspect of the game, but thank you Chute82 for showing an example.

No idea if he wants to be a tournament player. He's 12. I figure he has a lot of time to decide how far he wants to take a game. He did find it rather ridiculous that you brought three different armies to an event and them picked one based on what you thought your opponent might play.

He also found it frustrating that there wasn't a book to read. He enjoyed reading the older books in bed at night but hadn't quite come to grips with the idea of everything "new" being on the internet. I think part of that comes with a 12yr olds grasp of money and hobby budgets.

But yeah, Chute82's response is another reason I am not sad in moving on from this game.

Shotgun,

You are going to find toxic individuals in every game system, there really isn't any getting away from it. But what did you mean there was nothing to read? The printed rulebook is still available, and it is too easy to print off the cards for EVERY model in a faction.

That is what I did, I have printed cards for every model in my army, and every model I plan to buy. It is far easier to update a few free cards than to be forced to buy a Codex and updates for your models (Chapter Approved).

Three different armies? No, you build two 75 point lists from your faction and bring those. It is far less ridiculous than in a 40k tournament where your "take all comers" list gets smashed to oblivion by a skew list that yours can't handle. It is like a side board in Magic, just because you have that second list you don't have to use it. But that is really just for tournament play. It would be awesome if he wants to get into tournament play for any game system, but it really isn't something a younger individual should be thinking of before they even start playing.

So, this sort of attitude is what makes it difficult to be an advocate for Warmachine. I genuinely like the game, and am fairly heavily invested in it. I think Mk.III is the best it has ever been, especially since big stompy robots are much more prevalent in this edition. And I don’t hate theme forces.

I feel like there is something for everyone in Warmachine. Tournament players, hobbyists, narrative gamers, etc. And PP does try to cater to all of these diverse groups. I mean, they literally have created a paint line to sell paint to people to paint their minis with.

However, listen to certain segments of the community, and it feels like WMH is a srs bsns tournament game to be played at 75 point steamroller only, and anyone who wants anything else out of the experience is just a scrub or filthy casual and should go play 40K instead.

There are a lot of different ways to enjoy Warmachine, but it feels like there are also a lot of people who are insistent that theirs is the one true way. As just one example, I once had people who I weren’t even playing against angrily demand that I change the terrain setup on my table because I lined up a bunch of trench templates to form one big long trench, which is something that makes narrative sense but isn’t something that you see a lot at tournaments.

While it may be a minority of the community that is causing problems, it’s very easy in games like this for a small number of people totally ruin your day, or to totally dominate the internet chatter.

Tl;dr, I love Warmachine and want the game to succeed, but it gets hard for me to really advocate it when I’ve been told to f*** off to GW games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Shotgun’s initial comments,

I think that the information overload presented to a new player is a weakness of Warmachine. However, I don’t think it is quite so insurmountable, or is a matter of rote memorizing a bunch of cards for a number of reasons.

First, I feel like once you get some experience under your belt, you can start to get a feel for what armies do very quickly. I like to put my opponent’s list in War Room for reference, and I feel like knowing how to read and understand a spell list and a feat, and knowing what questions to ask, can get you at least far enough to play somewhat competently. I’m not a good enough player to be an internet celebrity, but I do okay at local tournaments and game away with an even W-L record at my last big tournament without really having memorized any cards aside from my own.

Secondly, there are limited formats out there. Champions reduces the amount of stuff out there in the meta greatly by limiting each faction to about five casters and two theme forces. Or Journeyman leagues, where your opponents are limited to battlebox casters for the first half, and then can only switch once, so just knowing what everyone else in the league is playing and ramping up really helps make the learning curve a curve rather than a wall.

This goes around to how communities onboard new players. If the attitude is to push them to 75 point games right away, then drop power lists into them and not make efforts to help them understand what your list does and rely on complex “gotcha” moments that come seemingly out of the blue, then of course the game is going to feel like an overwhelming, bloated mess. But if you ramp them up in points values, take care to help them as they just start out, and maybe run things like journeyman leagues, it gets much less of an issue.

While not exactly on the original topic, I have thought a lot about getting into the game and it's percieved complexity.

When I started in Mk2, I'd say it took about 20 games before you understood how things worked and not every game felt like it ended with a 'gotcha' play. You weren't up to par exactly, but you could start building your real competence from there.

Jumping into a (literally) new group, I think that's changed in Mk3. It takes maybe 10-15 games to 'get' mist of the system aspects and rules interactions, but most importantly, you can learn what questtions to ask.

You don't need to memorize every army/caster, or keep up with the meta or anything. With the game being open information, we try to coach our newbies to think and ask stuff like:

1) What are my list critical bits?
- do i rely on tough, lots of boxes, and/or healing? Is my list dependant on getting the alpha, high arm, or high def? Infantry or warjacks/beasts to do work? do I need corpses or souls? Can i deal with terrain, stealth, or incorporeal? Do i want to shoot or engage in melee?

2) What is the enemy caster spells and feat?
- does any of that counter what's important to me? Do I have anything that counters their stuff? Does any part of a spell or feat 'time-walk' me? Does their spells or feat empower their jacks/beasts or infantry, or debuff mine?

3) What is the enemy army composition?
- Weaponmaster infantry? Support vs beater beasts/jacks? Fast, jamming units? Are there WA or CAs? If there is a CA, what are the tactics/granted/mini-feat? Any aura effects? Any support or combat solos?

That's not a definitive list, but it gets them thinking about their gameplan and (later on) how they and the other player are going to react to scenario play. Every caster and army has different tools, but the structure or how those tools are implemented are all kinda the same. If you get that and frame it like the above, you can play cold into any game and after a handful of questions, be as prepared or moreso than someone trying to memorize every card in the game.

crimsyn wrote:

However, listen to certain segments of the community, and it feels like WMH is a srs bsns tournament game to be played at 75 point steamroller only, and anyone who wants anything else out of the experience is just a scrub or filthy casual and should go play 40K instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

See heres the thing, i can personally vouch for comments like this single handily destroying my play community, and other people who are somewhat local to me as well. When the only events ran for over a year at a time were 75 point steamrollers, it got old to a lot of people really quick. And outside of a few of my close friends, i actually did have people flat out tell me that playing anything other than 75 point steamroller games were a waste of my time and refused to play with my crew. So we all dumped warmachine because of that.

As to answer the origin post, from what ive read from mk1 rules, that would be a disaster. I had only heard horror stories from other people, but then again that was the super hardcore " i only know how to net list tourney list" people and may not have been accurate.

I would love nothing more to get back into this game, but it was unfortunately completely ruined and nobody i know will even give it a glancing pass now.

I've heard some pretty dire rumors about PP's future, and reading these reviews on glassdoor unfortunately substantiate the drift of what I was being told. This is genuinely sad for me, I enjoyed my time with WMH and still consider its lore and factions some of my favorite across sci-fi / fantasy games, and I've played a LOT of sci-fantasy games, and I appreciated what WMH added to the mini-gaming mix, and still could today. While I'm hoping they can slim down and figure themselves out still, the dude I was talking to was hoping they could at least sell their IP to more capable parties, which honestly may be the real way forward.

- Salvage

Basing a company's outlook based on half a dozen anonymous reviews on Glassdoor is hardly what I would call sound forecasting. You can find anything on the internet if you look hard enough, but claiming doom and destruction over 3 negative reviews, the newest of which is over a year old is more than a bit of a stretch.

Shotgun wrote:
Basing a company's outlook based on half a dozen anonymous reviews on Glassdoor is hardly what I would call sound forecasting. You can find anything on the internet if you look hard enough, but claiming doom and destruction over 3 negative reviews, the newest of which is over a year old is more than a bit of a stretch.

I'd also point out that Glassdoor doesn't authenticate your work history. It wouldn't be the first time a butthurt fan pretended to be a former employee on a game company's glassdoor.

Ha. Fair enough gents. My point was that I'd heard some dire things and these butthurt sad bois added more voices to the growing sense of unease.

But you know what occurs to me? Tell me something good about PP today. All I'm hearing are horror stories of people who worked there, multiple anecdotes of pay freezes and talent leaving, store owners who can't restock the PP stuff that does sell locally, and then the well-documented detonation of the pressgangers and pretty obvious decay of the WMH playerbase following MK3. And then people defending WMH as a game system in the face of others talking about its difficulties and learning curve and whatever (I like WMH, I know its strengths, and I was also a newb once who got stomped repeatedly until I could learn other armies / warnouns enough to get ok, so I know both sides of that argument).

So I would genuinely like to hear something positive about the state of PP today. Unlike the vast majority of internet humans, I actually like anecdotes, so give me facts, give me personal observations, but please give me some sense that there's an upside here.

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Ha. Fair enough gents. My point was that I'd heard some dire things and these butthurt sad bois added more voices to the growing sense of unease.

But you know what occurs to me? Tell me something good about PP today. All I'm hearing are horror stories of people who worked there, multiple anecdotes of pay freezes and talent leaving, store owners who can't restock the PP stuff that does sell locally, and then the well-documented detonation of the pressgangers and pretty obvious decay of the WMH playerbase following MK3. And then people defending WMH as a game system in the face of others talking about its difficulties and learning curve and whatever (I like WMH, I know its strengths, and I was also a newb once who got stomped repeatedly until I could learn other armies / warnouns enough to get ok, so I know both sides of that argument).

So I would genuinely like to hear something positive about the state of PP today. Unlike the vast majority of internet humans, I actually like anecdotes, so give me facts, give me personal observations, but please give me some sense that there's an upside here.

- Salvage

Uh...they're paint is still awesome. But then they might be changing manufacturers. Which puts a big question mark over the future quality.

Oh wait! They're doing the L5R Minicrate with FFG.
And...yeah. I have nothing else to add.

The situation looks pretty grim.

I really like P3 paints and, ironically, started switching over all my paints to that line within the last year. But both local stores are dropping the line because it's proving very difficult to restock. Lulz

- Salvage

I love the L5R minicrate stuff, but having either a) unpainted minis with no discernable use in my hobby cue or b) painted minis with no discernable use taking space on my display shelf or in a box just doesn't seem like something to kick subscription money towards.

They are gorgeous, but ultimately useless.

 Boss Salvage wrote:


So I would genuinely like to hear something positive about the state of PP today. Unlike the vast majority of internet humans, I actually like anecdotes, so give me facts, give me personal observations, but please give me some sense that there's an upside here.

- Salvage

To me the positivise for PP/WM&H.

• IMO the tightest dice based rule set on the market for tabletop wargames
• Tight competition ruleset that actually works as a comp set.
• Entry level games (Company of Iron) making it easier to sell the game to new players
• All the new models and the resculpts of old models are of amazing quality and detail
• Hobby Range is great and increasing
• Increase dive to include hobby and painting within the scope of WM&H
• Direct access to the game developers via the official faction FB groups and CID forums.
• Good use of social media by the company to make announcements and engage. Weekly videos announcements etc

 Boss Salvage wrote:

So I would genuinely like to hear something positive about the state of PP today. Unlike the vast majority of internet humans, I actually like anecdotes, so give me facts, give me personal observations, but please give me some sense that there's an upside here.

- Salvage

At the moment, PP is my Star Wars of Wargaming. I like everything about it beyond the relentless negativity that infects every online interaction regarding them.

MK3 is the best the game has ever been, creating a system that has a good mix of army and jacks and with build constraints that create some coherent and fantastic looking armies. Model quality has drastically improved with the shift to resin creating some of the best models they've done in years. They have bar none the best official digital solution for rules and use it to keep the game updated pretty regularly. The new MonPoc is terrific and a great update to one of my all time favorite games.

Honestly? The current state of WM is as close to what I wanted when I first got into the game as its ever been. The main thing that kills my enthusiasm for it is the relentless misery that pervades every discussion about it online.

For a positive from me:

The mystery box sales. For a variety of reasons a lot of people stopped playing near the start of mk3. All that backward momentum eventually stopped and the reduced playerbase leveled out. But after the mystery boxes started coming in every WM/H page I've seen has exploded with people trading, asking how to expand, and rebuilding metas.

I moved not too long ago and the area I'm in now was pretty sparse when I got here. Now we've a group of 4 people locally with another 2-4 interested in getting started. That's a pretty good start.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
H

So I would genuinely like to hear something positive about the state of PP today. Unlike the vast majority of internet humans, I actually like anecdotes, so give me facts, give me personal observations, but please give me some sense that there's an upside here.

- Salvage

The Tharn CID, means I get to play with big scary men, (admittedly some of the fixes like Pathfinder show the undertest of Mk3)

And Loki being so very pretty as a model

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Boss Salvage wrote:
H

So I would genuinely like to hear something positive about the state of PP today. Unlike the vast majority of internet humans, I actually like anecdotes, so give me facts, give me personal observations, but please give me some sense that there's an upside here.

- Salvage

The Tharn CID, means I get to play with big scary men, (admittedly some of the fixes like Pathfinder show the undertest of Mk3)

And Loki being so very pretty as a model

He said 'PP' not Circle.

you/ve lost me there. as PP are behind those things ?

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
you/ve lost me there. as PP are behind those things ?

I assumed he meant PP in general and not a specific faction.
Though I have heard good things about MonPoc. So that's also a positive I guess. That would depend on sales numbers I don't have.

Fair do's,

I've long given up concerning Intertubes scuttlebutt about what gaming companies are doing or should be doing according to the fans, so my take is limited to 1 faction of one game and so long as I get decent rules and mini's the rest is noise

Admittedly thats a tad myopic but there's now such an embarrassment of choice if one company fumbles a product I can just pick up something else, for example my local nerdherd swapped 7th 40k for X-Wing, which in turn got superceded by Guildball which will most likely get replaced in time although contenders based on group preferences are currently next to non-existent (giving 8th 40k a go was mooted but the volume of stuff lugging and being very lazy gamers is the issue)

Yeah I'm just as myopic.
As long as they keep producing their paint, I'll keep buying it. I'm less interested in their games these days. Though that has more to do with my kid - highly complex systems are a bit much for an 8 yo.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Fair do's,

I've long given up concerning Intertubes scuttlebutt about what gaming companies are doing or should be doing according to the fans, so my take is limited to 1 faction of one game and so long as I get decent rules and mini's the rest is noise

Admittedly thats a tad myopic but there's now such an embarrassment of choice if one company fumbles a product I can just pick up something else, for example my local nerdherd swapped 7th 40k for X-Wing, which in turn got superceded by Guildball which will most likely get replaced in time although contenders based on group preferences are currently next to non-existent (giving 8th 40k a go was mooted but the volume of stuff lugging and being very lazy gamers is the issue)

Personally, my answer has been to just maintain a single faction for everything I play. I don't really quit one game for another, I just play different games each week.

Oh aye the single faction is a pretty good guideline, kind of tricky in X-Wing due to the card upgrades shenanigans, but mostly stuck mono-faction in Hordes, although GB caught me out with 'well its only (intially)6 per faction so two teams is fine', 4 teams and 50 odd models later...

I don't relate to the whole negative atmosphere I see online about WM/H right now, but then I think I'm looking for something else out of a game. MK1 is definitely not it.

I have friends I play games with. I have multiple armies for WM/H, so they don't have to bring one. For me, it has been mostly a "game in a box", that I can pull out and play just like monopoly. A couple of battleboxes alone can produce many enjoyable games with friends. I like to keep it simple.

MKIII fixes a lot of what I didn't like about MK2. I'm sure it's not perfect, but my hobby element to this game means I like to have something I'm painting, and when I have all of my models painted, I make terrain. I enjoy doing those things, and I'm content to continue doing those things. When/if the company fails, I continue to house rule the game to be enjoyable and include the models I like, no matter where they come from GW or PP or FFG or whatever. I've never been into tournaments, though at one time we tried to have some fun ones with our gaming group only to discover we just weren't wired that way.

Coming back to PP after a 5 year break, I am a little disheartened to feel like the rules for my models keep changing, and I might not even know if they have if I'm not glued to the announcements online. I'm also pissed that the models don't come with cards anymore (I don't have a colour printer and they print like crap in B/W). All this means the game feels less contained and accessible to me, but just reinforces for me that I own my gaming experience, not the company.

Jlav,

While I agree with you that the models not coming with cards waa a bit of an annoyance to me, the constant tweaks to the models does not bug me. I like that problem models can be instantly dealt with, since the game devs cannot foresee EVERY combination people might come up with.

I like it far more than the current way problem models and rules are fixed in 40k right now, which is a twice a year paid book which is mostly junk, with a few pages of actual "fixes". You also have a $45 Codex which has parts of it invalidated 2 weeks after it drops, and the further 8th edition chugs along, you Codex becomes more and more worthless from the myriad of FAQs and erratas as well. I don't know if you play 40k, but you are complaining about coming back to WM/H in 5 years and potentially not knowing what your models do... ANY game that has regular updates will be the same, look at how much the core rules and the models in 40k have changed in a year in 8th edition. And while you may not know what every model does after subtle changes to your WM/H in 5 years, unlike other games, your models will still be part of the game. They won't be "squatted" like the 40k Index options are likely to be, or just cease to exist like all the non-plastic Guard models.

I don't even own a printer, but getting my cards printed in color on cardstock was a trivial affair. Go to your local library or office supplies store can get that done for you for less than $5. Still cheaper than buying a Codex plus twice a year Chapter Approved...

Honestly, the pace of change for what your playing has slowed pretty considerably. My Trolls haven't really changed in like a year now and I'm not expecting Khador to change for a while now either.

Have to agree with NH about digital updates, its a bit of a faff to start with but most copyshops or online services can print cards at a reasonable cost at a way higher quality than my gakky home printer

I recently got prints of all the stat cards for 3 (and a bit) of my Guildball teams along with a copy of the lastest rulebook for a smidge under $10, and I suspect the updated Tharn/Circle cards will be even cheaper

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Oh aye the single faction is a pretty good guideline, kind of tricky in X-Wing due to the card upgrades shenanigans, but mostly stuck mono-faction in Hordes, although GB caught me out with 'well its only (intially)6 per faction so two teams is fine', 4 teams and 50 odd models later...

Oh, I HAVE a lot of games with multiple factions. This is a lesson learned. I've just picked one to focus on and stopped keeping up with the rest. For the ones with way too much stuff I've got them ranked and put the lowest faction up for sale to chip away. Even used 2.0 as an excuse to sell off my Scum.