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Now that wolfs was all but leaked how do the space marine factions hold up against each other? Reading a bit of space wolfs I'm not blow away and think deathwatch is probably the most viable army as a stand alone.

Personally I'd rate it something like:
1. Deathwatch
2. Blood Angels (maybe Space Wolves, though the wolves might tie with Dark Angels instead)
3. Dark Angels
4. Vanilla (RG first, IF and UM likely tied after that, everything else on the bottom)
Last. Grey Knights

Ultramarines are still pretty impressive by virtue of having access to RG. Though he's obviously more effective when you can soup in some non-astartes shooting units for him to buff. However, I seem to be seeing more BA at tournaments than UM.

So probably...
BA
UM
SW
DA
Vanilla
Grey Knights

Not sure about Death Watch. They have some really nice tricks, but as a standalone force, they're basically a really expensive power armor army without much in the way of long-ranged fire and iffy delivery systems.

in fairness all I ever hear about BA wise is 3 squads of scouts, slamguinius and then soup.

As a Dark angels player, I wouldn't rate DA very high. Most of our unique stuff replaces units that are comparable. Deathwing have the same problem as all terminators. Ravenwing only have black Knights which are not the most points efficient plasma. The Dark talon is no longer the obvious bargain that it was. The Dark shroud doesn't do enough to really warrant its cost combined with the opportunity cost of not playing Raven guard or ultras.
The one thing we have going for us is not having to babysit devastators with captains.

Edit
Did I mention jink isn't worth 2 points per model and our psychic powers are all hard to cast? Don't get me started on the tactical objectives.

BA are never pure.

Zustiur wrote:
As a Dark angels player, I wouldn't rate DA very high. Most of our unique stuff replaces units that are comparable. Deathwing have the same problem as all terminators. Ravenwing only have black Knights which are not the most points efficient plasma. The Dark talon is no longer the obvious bargain that it was. The Dark shroud doesn't do enough to really warrant its cost combined with the opportunity cost of not playing Raven guard or ultras.
The one thing we have going for us is not having to babysit devastators with captains.

Weapons of the dark age hellblasters or plasma inceptors are beastly, but yeah bar making one of the best primaris units better your still paying the Space marine points tax of 20% overcosted.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are never pure.

Well they are tainted by their geneseed, so of course their not really pure.

Point that some of us were trying to say though is that among the Space Marine options they are among the stronger choices, even run solo. Sure, not many mono builds in the competitive world, but they do exist, even if they don't get to the top tables.

Zustiur wrote:
As a Dark angels player, I wouldn't rate DA very high. Most of our unique stuff replaces units that are comparable. Deathwing have the same problem as all terminators. Ravenwing only have black Knights which are not the most points efficient plasma. The Dark talon is no longer the obvious bargain that it was. The Dark shroud doesn't do enough to really warrant its cost combined with the opportunity cost of not playing Raven guard or ultras.
The one thing we have going for us is not having to babysit devastators with captains.

Dark Shroud comboed with Azrael makes for a very scary gunline, but you have to go all in on that to make it worthwhile. I think that's the main thing DAs have going for us though, and it's not as good as Guilliman parking lot most of the time.

Comparisons to Raven Guard are difficult because their strat is insane if they get first turn and generally not worth the CP if they don't. I'd say on balance it's close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
As a Dark angels player, I wouldn't rate DA very high. Most of our unique stuff replaces units that are comparable. Deathwing have the same problem as all terminators. Ravenwing only have black Knights which are not the most points efficient plasma. The Dark talon is no longer the obvious bargain that it was. The Dark shroud doesn't do enough to really warrant its cost combined with the opportunity cost of not playing Raven guard or ultras.
The one thing we have going for us is not having to babysit devastators with captains.

Weapons of the dark age hellblasters or plasma inceptors are beastly, but yeah bar making one of the best primaris units better your still paying the Space marine points tax of 20% overcosted.

Agree there, I always take Plasma Inceptors in DA, and I'm never disappointed in their performance. It doesn't make them top tier overall, but dropping that amount of plasma damage from the sky is in itself really strong. They statistically kill a Daemon Prince worth about the same or even more points than them in one turn with the strat, which is amazing.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Personally I'd rate it something like:
1. Deathwatch
2. Blood Angels (maybe Space Wolves, though the wolves might tie with Dark Angels instead)
3. Dark Angels
4. Vanilla (RG first, IF and UM likely tied after that, everything else on the bottom)
Last. Grey Knights

Seems pretty spot on. I'd rate Wolves as equal to Dark Angels, strong but more fluffy than comeptetive.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Personally I'd rate it something like:
1. Deathwatch
2. Blood Angels (maybe Space Wolves, though the wolves might tie with Dark Angels instead)
3. Dark Angels
4. Vanilla (RG first, IF and UM likely tied after that, everything else on the bottom)
Last. Grey Knights

Seems pretty spot on. I'd rate Wolves as equal to Dark Angels, strong but more fluffy than comeptetive.

Yeah, since hearing about the rules in more detail post posting I'd probably put them at DA levels. Strong, but not at the top of the pile.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Personally I'd rate it something like:
1. Deathwatch
2. Blood Angels (maybe Space Wolves, though the wolves might tie with Dark Angels instead)
3. Dark Angels
4. Vanilla (RG first, IF and UM likely tied after that, everything else on the bottom)
Last. Grey Knights

I specifically like that you list GKs as "last" rather than "5th", because even when just comparing mono-build Marines, saying GKs are 5th out of 5 choices doesn't quite express just how bad they are.

-

Maybe primaris will fix GK.

We have a guy who runs a lot of hellblasters, RW knights, dual big speeders and a ton of flyers in his DA army, and it seems to work for him. no idea if it would work in advance meta too.

 Galef wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Personally I'd rate it something like:
1. Deathwatch
2. Blood Angels (maybe Space Wolves, though the wolves might tie with Dark Angels instead)
3. Dark Angels
4. Vanilla (RG first, IF and UM likely tied after that, everything else on the bottom)
Last. Grey Knights

I specifically like that you list GKs as "last" rather than "5th", because even when just comparing mono-build Marines, saying GKs are 5th out of 5 choices doesn't quite express just how bad they are.

-

Glad you caught that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Maybe primaris will fix GK.

We have a guy who runs a lot of hellblasters, RW knights, dual big speeders and a ton of flyers in his DA army, and it seems to work for him. no idea if it would work in advance meta too.

I'd like to see what Primaris GK would look like, but I feel like it'd be basically GK with extra wounds and attacks (which might be enough to help balance them out a bit more honestly).

I've actually never seen a competitive mono-Deathwatch list perform, I honestly don't know what units it will have

I would place DA and SM above BA on being able to perform consistently actually, DA has Azrael and his plasma death ball and SM has Guilliman gunline, since they are shooting focused, both lists can will be able to do damage and play the game regardless of opponent, with DA being a bit more susceptible to -1 penalties and SM more fragile. BA's issue is that they get screwed over by chaffs super hard because their range options are weak and they have poor resilience, so a mono-BA list relies on pure burst damage, blowing a bunch of command points to slam as many jump packs into combat early game as possible and then hope to not die to the return fire, which is rough if you're just clearing chaff the whole time.

Hard to compare SW and BA at the moment, theoretically I think SW is stronger against general opponents because they have better shooting capabilities (Stormhawk flyer with keen eye stratagem), better close combat delivery system (stormwolf), and better chaff clearing (outflanking aggressors). But in a straight up fight I think BA will beat the crap out of SW

BA only have Slamguinus going for them. Space Wolves look like they can counter that and have a host of other options.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BA only have Slamguinus going for them. Space Wolves look like they can counter that and have a host of other options.

and even if Slamguinius is slightly better then a space wolves hero, well.. TBH... an army thats pure one trick pony is a bad army one nerf away from sucktitude.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BA only have Slamguinus going for them. Space Wolves look like they can counter that and have a host of other options.

and even if Slamguinius is slightly better then a space wolves hero, well.. TBH... an army thats pure one trick pony is a bad army one nerf away from sucktitude.

They'll be better against different targets on the charge. Against each other, Slamguinus having the extra bonus to wound is less savory than hitting on 2 rerolls to hit. After all their dude will already wound on a 2+ so...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BA only have Slamguinus going for them. Space Wolves look like they can counter that and have a host of other options.

and even if Slamguinius is slightly better then a space wolves hero, well.. TBH... an army thats pure one trick pony is a bad army one nerf away from sucktitude.

They'll be better against different targets on the charge. Against each other, Slamguinus having the extra bonus to wound is less savory than hitting on 2 rerolls to hit. After all their dude will already wound on a 2+ so...

Yeah but the meta does not consists of meq characters duking it out with thunder hammers. What they do have to kill is custodes, knights or eldar tanks, and versus those having a bonus to wound is huge. BA also have better speed, better relics and utility. No one is going to be taking 3 units of Bloodclaws to run, two TWC lords.
Also am no math genius, but hiting on +3 is enough to kill a marine hero anyway, most of the time the +2 hit is going to be marginaly important. .

Karol wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BA only have Slamguinus going for them. Space Wolves look like they can counter that and have a host of other options.

and even if Slamguinius is slightly better then a space wolves hero, well.. TBH... an army thats pure one trick pony is a bad army one nerf away from sucktitude.

They'll be better against different targets on the charge. Against each other, Slamguinus having the extra bonus to wound is less savory than hitting on 2 rerolls to hit. After all their dude will already wound on a 2+ so...

Yeah but the meta does not consists of meq characters duking it out with thunder hammers. What they do have to kill is custodes, knights or eldar tanks, and versus those having a bonus to wound is huge. BA also have better speed, better relics and utility. No one is going to be taking 3 units of Bloodclaws to run, two TWC lords.
Also am no math genius, but hiting on +3 is enough to kill a marine hero anyway, most of the time the +2 hit is going to be marginaly important. .

If the only thing worth taking in codex blood angels is the captains I'd say you just admitted that codex space wolves is better. A codex that has a SINGLE good choice is a bad codex, because a single nerf could destroy the codex.

But SW don't even have the cpt. Their TWC dudes are strickt worse then slamguiniuses. They even have weaker options like BA have, in form of mefiston or scouts.
And lets not forget that without jumppacks and the extre speed BA have, there is no way for SW armies to deal with the top stuff that is being seen on tables nowadays.
They deal with flyers worse then BA, they deal with knights worse then BA. They are slower, all the cool stuff they have is the longfangs with their stratagem and the cheap doggos. But doggos don't shot like IG dudes do, and longfangs are a fire and forget unit, they can do ok alfa strike , but on opponents turn they die.

Karol wrote:
But SW don't even have the cpt. Their TWC dudes are strickt worse then slamguiniuses. They even have weaker options like BA have, in form of mefiston or scouts
And lets not forget that without jumppacks and the extre speed BA have, there is no way for SW armies to deal with the top stuff that is being seen on tables nowadays.
They deal with flyers worse then BA, they deal with knights worse then BA. They are slower, all the cool stuff they have is the longfangs with their stratagem and the cheap doggos. But doggos don't shot like IG dudes do, and longfangs are a fire and forget unit, they can do ok alfa strike , but on opponents turn they die.

Have you read the SW codex? They can ignore hit modifiers so they definitely have a way to deal with flyers, they have the best psychic nuke in the game, they can make a very durable gunline thanks to cloaked by the storm and stormcaller, tons of great assault options and I think you are definitely underselling how good longfangs are.

If we're looking at mono-codex then SW is miles ahead of BA. Mono BA isn't even a thing.

I'd have thought mono SW is the way to go.

But then my experience of Deathwatch is incredibly limited.

DW crutches on FW for its AT. If that's okay in your metric, then I'd say DW are the most competitive pure marine army.

 grouchoben wrote:
DW crutches on FW for its AT. If that's okay in your metric, then I'd say DW are the most competitive pure marine army.

I mean Marines crutch on FW anyway so...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
DW crutches on FW for its AT. If that's okay in your metric, then I'd say DW are the most competitive pure marine army.

I mean Marines crutch on FW anyway so...

Well, FW or Guilliman or both.