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Is it legal to use tzaangor enlightened on foot (with greatbows) as they are the only model in 40k that uses bows (to my knowledge) so its pretty obvious what they are? Or does line of sight etc require them to actually be riding something?

Ozomoto wrote:
Is it legal to use tzaangor enlightened on foot (with greatbows) as they are the only model in 40k that uses bows (to my knowledge) so its pretty obvious what they are? Or does line of sight etc require them to actually be riding something?

The rules don't care what model you use to represent a datasheet, nor does it enforce WYSIWYG. You can use a Grot or a Warhound Titan to represent a Tzaangor Enlightented for all the rules care.

So, yes, it is legal to model them on foot. Anyone saying otherwise is, to put it in a word, wrong. You'll most likely have people get upset if you try and model for advantage however.

Datasheets for units are the rules for the models in the unit, as stated on page 174 of the rulebook. So, you are not allowed by the rules to use the wrong models for a unit.

There is a large degree of customization/substitution of models allowed by the majority of the community. Generally, you should avoid any such changes that will confuse the opponent as to the abilities of your model or that would advantage your model in game play over those of the official model.

With this in mind, I would object to Tzaangor Enlightened on Foot. Leaving them off the Disc of Tzeetch makes has the following problems:

1. The model becomes easier to hide in LOS due to being shorter
2. You can also put it on a smaller base since you don't need a 40mm base for an infantry model
3. A model on foot doesn't look like it has Fly nor a large Move like one on a disc
4. Without the disc, your opponent may not take into account the melee attacks the disc gives the model

Ultimately, what you can get away with is up to your opponent/event organizer, but there are the pitfalls of your proposal.

 alextroy wrote:
Datasheets for units are the rules for the models in the unit, as stated on page 174 of the rulebook. So, you are not allowed by the rules to use the wrong models for a unit.

Assuming you're referring to the sentence starting, "Each unit has a datasheet that lists the characteristics, wargear and abilitiesof the models in that unit," there's no suggestion you must use models that come in a box with a name matching the datasheet's 'Unit Name'.

 alextroy wrote:
Datasheets for units are the rules for the models in the unit, as stated on page 174 of the rulebook. So, you are not allowed by the rules to use the wrong models for a unit.

There is a large degree of customization/substitution of models allowed by the majority of the community. Generally, you should avoid any such changes that will confuse the opponent as to the abilities of your model or that would advantage your model in game play over those of the official model.

With this in mind, I would object to Tzaangor Enlightened on Foot. Leaving them off the Disc of Tzeetch makes has the following problems:

1. The model becomes easier to hide in LOS due to being shorter
2. You can also put it on a smaller base since you don't need a 40mm base for an infantry model
3. A model on foot doesn't look like it has Fly nor a large Move like one on a disc
4. Without the disc, your opponent may not take into account the melee attacks the disc gives the model

Ultimately, what you can get away with is up to your opponent/event organizer, but there are the pitfalls of your proposal.

Do the following modifications change any/all of your concerns:
For 3, add on wings
For 1 and 2, use the regular sized bases and have them perched on either rubble or terrain to lift them off their bases to the exact height they would be on disks.

Ozomoto wrote:
Do the following modifications change any/all of your concerns:
For 3, add on wings
For 1 and 2, use the regular sized bases and have them perched on either rubble or terrain to lift them off their bases to the exact height they would be on disks.

Same base with wings and some height certainly addresses those three issues. There is till the issue of the disc in melee, but that's much less with the LOS and Fly issues addressed. Still, check with your local scene since they are more important than some random guy on the internet.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Datasheets for units are the rules for the models in the unit, as stated on page 174 of the rulebook. So, you are not allowed by the rules to use the wrong models for a unit.

Assuming you're referring to the sentence starting, "Each unit has a datasheet that lists the characteristics, wargear and abilitiesof the models in that unit," there's no suggestion you must use models that come in a box with a name matching the datasheet's 'Unit Name'.

I'll have to disagree. There is nothing in the rules that implies you can use whatever model you want to depict whatever unit you want.

Nothing in the rules say you must use the right models for the unit, so it allows pro young and conversions etc but common sense says a grotmcant be use to represent a Titan. BCB doesn’t seem to have common sense so he used that type of example to prove his point. Tournaments and other players groups might have their own rules about it but 40k lets you do what you like.

Many tournaments have rules about what may or may not count as a conversion/proxy. Such as GW events require only GW parts where as non GW don't mind non GW parts

Rule of thumb you are ok so long as your model roughly depicts the model it is supposed to its weapons are wysiwyg and it is on the correct base/has similar dimentions. If in doubt ask the TO.

In a casual game it is between you and your opponent there is no official rule ive known playtesters use dice instead of models.

You get into trouble if weapons are not wysiwyg (i let the flamer walk up because it cant hit my tank wait its supposed to be a melta/it is confusing as to what it is/or its size gives you an advantage.

I've certainly used catachans modelled to be riding termagaunts as rough riders at events no problem so there is plenty of scope (but i checked with the TO first).

While the rules don't specify that models have to be THE models there is precednet for GW implying this like in the case of DP of Nurgle. The index t0o codex flowchart also implies this. I'm sure you wouldn't have fun turning up to warhammer world with a grot as anything other than a grot and trying to tell them that the rulebook doesn't specifically say you can't.

However its often tourney specific what is accepted

I have run a chaos cultist with chaos iconography removed as a ministorum priest with autogun at 1 event

I have run to catachan infantry + anvil industries mortar + large base as a HWT at 10 events

I have run catachan mounted on termagaunt for rough riders. 3 events (4 in two weeks)

I am currently working on AM crusaders useing skitarii heads and mantic basilea models.

It comes back to does it resemble what its supposed to is it the right size a grot struggles to look like anything but a grot and almost anything similar is biggger

I know this is YMDC, but recall the Rule of Cool.

It's not in the rulebook, but it's secondary only to Rule #1 in most environments/to most players.

As a collorary to Rule of Cool, when you do your conversion, try to represent every facet of the rules the models have. Minor rules don't need to be embellished as much, but this can be problematic.

When I built my Exodite Shining Spears, the underslung Shurkien Catapaults weren't a big deal (twin linked instead of two, and could fire that or the Laser Lance at the time). Now, if I want to use them, I really should remodel them with a more pronounced replacement for the twin Shuriken Catapaults - because it's much more important.

However, I have some Harlequin kitbashes that don't have a pistol at all. Doing a backflip while slashing out with a glaive or sword doesn't really lend itself to a pistol, and didn't think a holster really boosted their look. Nobody's ever had a problem with the missing pistol. It "obviously" has a Shuriken Pistol - because you can't take the model without one. However, trying to use that as having a Neuro or Fusion pistol would be a no. Missing an option everyone else in the squad has and is default is fine, especially when it's incidental. Missing an upgrade or a differentiator or a major part of the model (such as Fly) is not so much.

But it all comes down to Rule of Cool. If you have an amazing conversion, and the closest datasheet is a Tzaangor Enlightoned on foot, then use a Tzangor Enlightened on foot.

I like the idea of a scenic base and wings to show his heroic importance and movement speed. Without those, do I know at a glance that he rides higher and moves faster than the rest of the guys?