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The rules for Endless Fury state "Each unmodified hit roll of 6 causes 2 hits instead of 1". Does this mean that even if I was suffering a -1 penalty, the 6's would count?

 Valkyrie wrote:
The rules for Endless Fury state "Each unmodified hit roll of 6 causes 2 hits instead of 1". Does this mean that even if I was suffering a -1 penalty, the 6's would count?

It says "unmodified hit roll of 6"

So why would you apply modifiers to an unmodified hit roll?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
The rules for Endless Fury state "Each unmodified hit roll of 6 causes 2 hits instead of 1". Does this mean that even if I was suffering a -1 penalty, the 6's would count?

It says "unmodified hit roll of 6"

So why would you apply modifiers to an unmodified hit roll?

I'm asking more out of curiosity, as pretty much anything else that has a bonus on a 6 such as Tesla is affected by modifiers. I was wondering if there was something I was missing.

 Valkyrie wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
The rules for Endless Fury state "Each unmodified hit roll of 6 causes 2 hits instead of 1". Does this mean that even if I was suffering a -1 penalty, the 6's would count?

It says "unmodified hit roll of 6"

So why would you apply modifiers to an unmodified hit roll?

I'm asking more out of curiosity, as pretty much anything else that has a bonus on a 6 such as Tesla is affected by modifiers. I was wondering if there was something I was missing.

You dont miss anything. Tesla says hit roll of 6+, which is after modifiers. An unmodified roll of 6 is a natural roll of 6, modifiers are ignored.

 p5freak wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
The rules for Endless Fury state "Each unmodified hit roll of 6 causes 2 hits instead of 1". Does this mean that even if I was suffering a -1 penalty, the 6's would count?

It says "unmodified hit roll of 6"

So why would you apply modifiers to an unmodified hit roll?

I'm asking more out of curiosity, as pretty much anything else that has a bonus on a 6 such as Tesla is affected by modifiers. I was wondering if there was something I was missing.

You dont miss anything. Tesla says hit roll of 6+, which is after modifiers. An unmodified roll of 6 is a natural roll of 6, modifiers are ignored.

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying.

The issue with the wording of this ability, which has debated in the past, is what happens if an unmodified roll is a miss?

Worth considering as on the lowest profile there only needs to be a -2 for a 6 to be a miss.

As it says 'instead of 1' does that mean it must have been a hit in the first place to cause 2 hits? It's not totally clear.

I think id still award 2 but it's completely unclear GW wording at its finist. ( I base my decision on correcting at the first point the rule doesn't work) and on causeing the most difficult for -1 stacking aeldari players

It should either be prefixed is successfull or say say scores an additional hit not 2 hits.

Stux wrote:
The issue with the wording of this ability, which has debated in the past, is what happens if an unmodified roll is a miss?

Worth considering as on the lowest profile there only needs to be a -2 for a 6 to be a miss.

As it says 'instead of 1' does that mean it must have been a hit in the first place to cause 2 hits? It's not totally clear.

I'll check the codex later but if it does says an unmodified roll of 6 causes 2 hits.
I would say yes endless furry always hits twice on natural 6's regardless of modifiers.
It it says 2 instead of 1 then you need the 1 to replace.


The additional hit situation is not clear either as can you have an additional hit if you didn't hit?

They just needed to stop the sentence at a 6 causes 2 hits and it would have worked fine.

Ice_can wrote:


They just needed to stop the sentence at a 6 causes 2 hits and it would have worked fine.

I think they did it to stop it interacting with Vulker's Strategem which does the same thing, otherwise each 6 would cause 4 hits.

 Valkyrie wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


They just needed to stop the sentence at a 6 causes 2 hits and it would have worked fine.

I think they did it to stop it interacting with Vulker's Strategem which does the same thing, otherwise each 6 would cause 4 hits.

Which could have been easily prevented by saying thr strategum can not be used on an airloom of the noble houses much like blessed by the sancrasticans(sp) works already.

Stux wrote:
The issue with the wording of this ability, which has debated in the past, is what happens if an unmodified roll is a miss?

Worth considering as on the lowest profile there only needs to be a -2 for a 6 to be a miss.

As it says 'instead of 1' does that mean it must have been a hit in the first place to cause 2 hits? It's not totally clear.

It still causes two hits. The Smoke Launchers FAQ proves you can still get B instead of A even if A didn't happen.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Stux wrote:
The issue with the wording of this ability, which has debated in the past, is what happens if an unmodified roll is a miss?

Worth considering as on the lowest profile there only needs to be a -2 for a 6 to be a miss.

As it says 'instead of 1' does that mean it must have been a hit in the first place to cause 2 hits? It's not totally clear.

It still causes two hits. The Smoke Launchers FAQ proves you can still get B instead of A even if A didn't happen.

Not really. The Smoke Launcher FAQ proves that you can take action B instead of action A even if action A can't happen. That's not the same at all as replacing result 1 with result 2 as the result of an attack. You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Stux wrote:
The issue with the wording of this ability, which has debated in the past, is what happens if an unmodified roll is a miss?

Worth considering as on the lowest profile there only needs to be a -2 for a 6 to be a miss.

As it says 'instead of 1' does that mean it must have been a hit in the first place to cause 2 hits? It's not totally clear.

It still causes two hits. The Smoke Launchers FAQ proves you can still get B instead of A even if A didn't happen.

Not really. The Smoke Launcher FAQ proves that you can take action B instead of action A even if action A can't happen. That's not the same at all as replacing result 1 with result 2 as the result of an attack. You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

Indeed, and agreed. Furthermore, when I’ve suggested using one FAQ as precedent for another situation dear BCB has scoffed at the concept, yet here we are.

Why is their any debate over this? This is how every on 6 to hit ability should be. Unmodified. Every single one of them. Endless fury is really OP though. lol.

Should be and is are two very different things.

Striking Scorpion Exarchs, for example, don't have the 'unmodified' term. Helps when assaulting units in cover. But hurts when they take the Scorpion's Claw (-1-to-hit).

Bharring wrote:
But hurts when they take the Scorpion's Claw (-1-to-hit).

*Psst* Scorpion's Claw doesn't have any negative hit modifier*

My first thought.

E - hmmm actually it's not as simple as that is it? It doesn't have the same text as Dakka Dakka Dakka that states; "Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 for an attack with a ranged weapon made by a model in this unit, that hit roll succeeds regardless of any modifiers." (Emphasis mine) Maybe not, I'm afraid.

There was a lengthy debate on Endless Fury combined with saturation bombardment on this board awhile ago.

This has a similar enough concept to it so I will provide the 2 interpretations that I could see:

1) The effect takes place the moment you roll the unmodified 6 and any modifiers are completely ignored(screw you Altioc).

2) Modifiers still get applied as normal and the effect does nothing if you miss because there is no 1 hit to "instead of" cause 2 hits.

1 functions with the idea that weapon abilities can always be activated(chainsword bonus attack without using the chainsword for normal attacks), so any unmodified 6 is a hit and 2 hits without the modifiers applying to the roll.

2 functions in pure RAW as we are not told to ignore modifiers to hit in order to determine the single hit that then is a requirement to be replaced with 2 hits. 0 hits= 0 hits.

But, if you subscribe to #2 in this case; then why were you even firing your 5+ to hit gun at a target that forces a -2 to hit penalty?

All this has happened before, all this will happen again: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/759576.page