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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 16:53:18
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Dakka Veteran
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Now that the NOVA lists have exposed and much discussion has taken place, do you think the CP mechanic can be balanced?
If yes, how would it be done?
If no, what should be done?
Thanks dakka!!!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 16:55:13
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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Define balanced?
We're talking about a game that is inherently impossible to be truly balanced. Even chess has a skew between white and black.
What scenario would justify voting 'yes' in this poll?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 17:05:55
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Sure, there are a lot of ways you could fix it but primarily you need to fix soup to do it. Much like the 7e psychic phase right now you have CP batteries being used to launch powerful stratagems negating what might be a high cost in a typical mono-faction list. I think the easiest way to fix this is to better keyword stratagems and make it such that you only get stratagems for which you have your entire army containing that keyword. This would require some work, and likely the creation of IMPERIUM and CHAOS keyword stratagems, but if your powerful stratagems are tied to a more specific keyword you won't be boosting your CP through allies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 17:06:53
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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See my post on how to balance CP - that is how you do it. Youll notice - the only ones who don't like it are guard players.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/761717.page
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 17:08:37
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 17:06:55
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
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Yes
Change it so that it's a strategic reserve that everyone starts with the same amount of and then uses for in-game stratagems, pre-game benefits, and list building freedom and alliances.
Everyone gets basic detachments (HQ, troops, and support) to fill for no CP cost.
Want something more specialized? An outrider or supreme command might cost a single CP. If they are allies they might cost you a second, and if it's just one unit without unit tax (i.e. a lone smash captain) that's a third CP gone.
But you start with a generous amount, the principle is that you are trading a proportion of your stratagems later for flexibility now, without putting the boot in on players of allied factions.
(edit - and of course rebalance the cost of stratagems to take into account that there would no longer be any CP rich and poor armies)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 17:07:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 17:47:36
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yes it can be balanced, but:
1) Every CP trait and relic can only generate one CP per round
2a) CPs are tied to the detachment that generates them
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2b) CPs are generated in small quantities each turn instead of having a set number from the start.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 17:49:26
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Norn Queen
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Can it be balanced? Of course it can.
Does GW have writers good enough to balance it? Not a snowballs chance in hell.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 17:50:39
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I’m thinking GW needs to put out a new detachment… An Allies detachment.
You can only take an allies detachment after taking another detachment. If your allies detachment you can have up to 6 HQ, Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, Heavy Support, LOW from another Faction, You Warlord cannot be in this allies faction. You receive no CP from an allies Detachment. Any units in the allies Detachment cannot use CP generators, or CP retainers. No Stratagems can be used from any units in a Allies Detachment. You can have 2 Allies detachment, after taking a first normal Detachment if you choose. Allies detachment is the only way to add soup to your faction.
I think this would fix CP, and soup.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 17:56:40
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Dakka Veteran
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I would start @ 20. I would also add a penalty for units not of your warlords faction (-1 or -2)?
I think this is the most elegant solution.
Would also need to work on the recycling of CP but that seems like an easy fix. Only 1 roll per STRAT. Only on your own strats (none of this farming enemy CPs). No rolling until turn 1 (no pre-game strats).
Solves most of the CP issues. Could go further and institute something like formations lite (Iron hands get cheap heavy detachments, white scars get cheap FA detachments...) but I'm not sure I trust GW to not feth that up but it would help promote "fluffy" armies.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 17:57:54
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Spoletta wrote:Yes it can be balanced, but:
1) Every CP trait and relic can only generate one CP per round
2a) CPs are tied to the detachment that generates them
or
2b) CPs are generated in small quantities each turn instead of having a set number from the start.
1) Still makes Grand Strategists and Kurov's and Veritas the golden standard of CP abuse
2a) Removes Allies from the game and helps mono Guard a lot as they are the only one with double CP regen in 1 codex
2b) don't allow for extra relics and deployment strategums etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 18:26:15
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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bananathug wrote:
I would start @ 20. I would also add a penalty for units not of your warlords faction (-1 or -2)?
I think this is the most elegant solution.
Would also need to work on the recycling of CP but that seems like an easy fix. Only 1 roll per STRAT. Only on your own strats (none of this farming enemy CPs). No rolling until turn 1 (no pre-game strats).
Solves most of the CP issues. Could go further and institute something like formations lite (Iron hands get cheap heavy detachments, white scars get cheap FA detachments...) but I'm not sure I trust GW to not feth that up but it would help promote "fluffy" armies.
20 is a lot but it also works. 15 feels more tactical which is why we have arrived at 15 as being the better of 15-20.
I'm not sure about special detachments - I think characters with special rules granting you access to special detachments seem like the best way to do that IMO.
I like your ideas about -1/-2 for detachments not of your warlords faction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 18:33:52
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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I think it should be a set amount per turn. possible with an added 1 for brigade and 2 for battalion per turn. eliminate all forms of restoring CP relics, warlord traits etc. Each player gets 4 cp per player turn, any spent pregame are applied to turn 1. no limit per turn for stratagems so if you want to reroll 4 saves in a shooting phase then go for it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 18:39:03
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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It can be. The problem right now is that Battalions give more CPs than being Battle-Forged. This allows the abuse that soup armies can take cheap Battalions of faction X to fuel strats for faction Y. Battle-Forged should be the primary generator of CPs. It's literally the only thing that all factions have equal access to. Battalions can still give more that other detachments, but only by 1-2CPs more at most. I could see BF giving CPs based on point level. 2CPs for every 500pts, or something like that. That means every 2000pt BF army starts with 8CPs. If Battalions are then only 2CPs, having 3 of them isn't such a big difference than an army with say, 3 Outriders at 1CP per. Battalions would still be the best way to bring ObSec Troops, so there really shouldn't be a need to make them so much MORE appealing the other detachments. After that you could limit CP usage to X detachment if you want, but it may not be needed once you fix the above. -
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 18:45:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 18:41:15
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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G00fySmiley wrote:I think it should be a set amount per turn. possible with an added 1 for brigade and 2 for battalion per turn. eliminate all forms of restoring CP relics, warlord traits etc. Each player gets 4 cp per player turn, any spent pregame are applied to turn 1. no limit per turn for stratagems so if you want to reroll 4 saves in a shooting phase then go for it.
Why is that better than my above suggested change? I know that is what sigmar does and I am learning that game right now too. Personally I think mine works better for 40k. Because we have stratagems with different costs and you are suggesting a CP limit per turn - this means using one 3 point stratagem can cost you the ability to use another 2 point one. I don't see this as solving any problems but just added a frustrating limitation. The game is also front loaded as heck anyways - nothing is going to change that. Command points on turn 3-4 don't mean crap compared to command points spent turn 1.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 18:41:40
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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You could:
1. Bring back primary/secondary detachments. Primary detachment must have warlord/relics. This could also be Primary/Secondary army.
2. Restrict relics to the army that your warlord is in.
3. Make your warlords army have more power level than any other detachment / army in your list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 18:53:58
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
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Xenomancers wrote:Why is that better than my above suggested change? I know that is what sigmar does and I am learning that game right now too. Personally I think mine works better for 40k. Because we have stratagems with different costs and you are suggesting a CP limit per turn - this means using one 3 point stratagem can cost you the ability to use another 2 point one.
Well to be fair it does both 1) limit stacking, 2) limit 'nova'ing, and 3) limit alpha strikes - particularly if the points you spend pre-game count against your first turn allocation.
So it has its up-sides.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 18:55:02
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Xenomancers wrote: G00fySmiley wrote:I think it should be a set amount per turn. possible with an added 1 for brigade and 2 for battalion per turn. eliminate all forms of restoring CP relics, warlord traits etc. Each player gets 4 cp per player turn, any spent pregame are applied to turn 1. no limit per turn for stratagems so if you want to reroll 4 saves in a shooting phase then go for it.
Why is that better than my above suggested change? I know that is what sigmar does and I am learning that game right now too. Personally I think mine works better for 40k. Because we have stratagems with different costs and you are suggesting a CP limit per turn - this means using one 3 point stratagem can cost you the ability to use another 2 point one. I don't see this as solving any problems but just added a frustrating limitation. The game is also front loaded as heck anyways - nothing is going to change that. Command points on turn 3-4 don't mean crap compared to command points spent turn 1.
I actually prefer the limited per turn precisely to make the cps more important towards the end of the game. I don't want somebody using a 3cp stratagem then immediately using a 2 point one. That is kind of the definition of front loading the game to me. I'd be willing to playtest both options, but I just see these 10cp dropped in one turns and see games that before CP might have been competitive and now suddenly the player going first has crippled thier opponent to neigh uselessness before they can do much in reply.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 19:07:29
Subject: Re:Can CP be balanced?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Easy, remove CP from army composition and instead have it tied to how many points/power level your using and remove all abilities from the game to regenerate CP. That gives all players equal tools. That said GW would need to re-balance certain factions that are overly reliant on using stratagems to function.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 19:26:24
Subject: Re:Can CP be balanced?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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HoundsofDemos wrote:Easy, remove CP from army composition and instead have it tied to how many points/power level your using and remove all abilities from the game to regenerate CP. That gives all players equal tools. That said GW would need to re-balance certain factions that are overly reliant on using stratagems to function.
I agree Strats would have to be re-worded for this to work. Some factions, like Eldar, have really good strats due to the fact that (in theory) they have less access to CPs. I like the idea of every faction having close to the same CPs, but you need to account for this. And it is actually OK for list building to have some impact on CPs. Just not DOUBLE or more impact. Having BF generate a faction's majority of CPs and then Battalions add a very small amount after that (like 2CPs only) should help this. Soup lists can still game the system, but not nearly as severe, probably only having 4-6 more CPs than an army with no Battalions. -
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/09/04 19:27:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 19:38:57
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Dakka Veteran
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Actually if you remove AM from the equation, armies with few CPs get regen traits and armies with many more CPs are very limited on this front.
I do not understand how GW could give AM the highest number of CPs + CPs Relic + CPs Warlord trait...everyone could see that as overkill and problematic in a Soup context (which is here to stay since the game is FACTION based) Automatically Appended Next Post: HoundsofDemos wrote:Easy, remove CP from army composition and instead have it tied to how many points/power level your using and remove all abilities from the game to regenerate CP. That gives all players equal tools. That said GW would need to re-balance certain factions that are overly reliant on using stratagems to function.
Nobody would use Battalions/Brigade expect for armies like Guard .
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 19:40:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 20:00:19
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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A.T. wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Why is that better than my above suggested change? I know that is what sigmar does and I am learning that game right now too. Personally I think mine works better for 40k. Because we have stratagems with different costs and you are suggesting a CP limit per turn - this means using one 3 point stratagem can cost you the ability to use another 2 point one.
Well to be fair it does both 1) limit stacking, 2) limit 'nova'ing, and 3) limit alpha strikes - particularly if the points you spend pre-game count against your first turn allocation.
So it has its up-sides.
Personally - I don't think CP have much to do with how important turn 1 is. That is game design - not trying to redesign the game - just make CP more fair for all armies. Automatically Appended Next Post: G00fySmiley wrote: Xenomancers wrote: G00fySmiley wrote:I think it should be a set amount per turn. possible with an added 1 for brigade and 2 for battalion per turn. eliminate all forms of restoring CP relics, warlord traits etc. Each player gets 4 cp per player turn, any spent pregame are applied to turn 1. no limit per turn for stratagems so if you want to reroll 4 saves in a shooting phase then go for it.
Why is that better than my above suggested change? I know that is what sigmar does and I am learning that game right now too. Personally I think mine works better for 40k. Because we have stratagems with different costs and you are suggesting a CP limit per turn - this means using one 3 point stratagem can cost you the ability to use another 2 point one. I don't see this as solving any problems but just added a frustrating limitation. The game is also front loaded as heck anyways - nothing is going to change that. Command points on turn 3-4 don't mean crap compared to command points spent turn 1.
I actually prefer the limited per turn precisely to make the cps more important towards the end of the game. I don't want somebody using a 3cp stratagem then immediately using a 2 point one. That is kind of the definition of front loading the game to me. I'd be willing to playtest both options, but I just see these 10cp dropped in one turns and see games that before CP might have been competitive and now suddenly the player going first has crippled thier opponent to neigh uselessness before they can do much in reply.
Fair enough - some of the most powerful stratagems are defensive though. I don't see it as exacerbating the turn 1 alpha issue.
Personally - that is one thing I love about Sigmar. Alternating combats prevent super alpha strikes. I wish we could do that in 40k.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 20:03:20
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 20:06:00
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ice_can wrote:Spoletta wrote:Yes it can be balanced, but:
1) Every CP trait and relic can only generate one CP per round
2a) CPs are tied to the detachment that generates them
or
2b) CPs are generated in small quantities each turn instead of having a set number from the start.
1) Still makes Grand Strategists and Kurov's and Veritas the golden standard of CP abuse
2a) Removes Allies from the game and helps mono Guard a lot as they are the only one with double CP regen in 1 codex
2b) don't allow for extra relics and deployment strategums etc.
1) They are meant to be because of 2a
2a) Guards are designed as a CP rich faction, reason why they don't have really good stratagems and they have really good CP generating traits/relics. They got a lot of CP that are worth less.
2b) If the CPs are scored once at the start of the game and then at the start of every turn then you can
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 20:21:52
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
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Xenomancers wrote:Personally - I don't think CP have much to do with how important turn 1 is. That is game design - not trying to redesign the game - just make CP more fair for all armies.
They just make turn 1 more deadly when you can throw a dozen points into various kinds of movement and attack boosters.
You could even go a little further and have your first turns points spend on your pre-game strats and then refreshing on your _opponents_ turn, so whoever goes second has some form of tangible advantage to offset getting shot up early on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 20:30:04
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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A.T. wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Personally - I don't think CP have much to do with how important turn 1 is. That is game design - not trying to redesign the game - just make CP more fair for all armies.
They just make turn 1 more deadly when you can throw a dozen points into various kinds of movement and attack boosters.
You could even go a little further and have your first turns points spend on your pre-game strats and then refreshing on your _opponents_ turn, so whoever goes second has some form of tangible advantage to offset getting shot up early on.
Not that I disagree with you here. Should we also not allow huge psychic combos turn 1? Like quicken protect spears? Or warptime with daemonic strength?
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 20:55:20
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Spoletta wrote:Ice_can wrote:Spoletta wrote:Yes it can be balanced, but:
1) Every CP trait and relic can only generate one CP per round
2a) CPs are tied to the detachment that generates them
or
2b) CPs are generated in small quantities each turn instead of having a set number from the start.
1) Still makes Grand Strategists and Kurov's and Veritas the golden standard of CP abuse
2a) Removes Allies from the game and helps mono Guard a lot as they are the only one with double CP regen in 1 codex
2b) don't allow for extra relics and deployment strategums etc.
1) They are meant to be because of 2a
2a) Guards are designed as a CP rich faction, reason why they don't have really good stratagems and they have really good CP generating traits/relics. They got a lot of CP that are worth less.
2b) If the CPs are scored once at the start of the game and then at the start of every turn then you can
2a) Guard player's keep stating this as a fact but can't explain who at GW said it? Also guard do have some supper broken internal strategums aswell like infinite jurry rigging etc.
2b) So exactlly how many CP's are armies allowed to spend pre game? A number of factions have want to spend 4-9 CP pregame and those are mono lists starting with 9-15 CP for the game currently(without access to regeneration). Automatically Appended Next Post: A.T. wrote: Xenomancers wrote:Personally - I don't think CP have much to do with how important turn 1 is. That is game design - not trying to redesign the game - just make CP more fair for all armies.
They just make turn 1 more deadly when you can throw a dozen points into various kinds of movement and attack boosters.
You could even go a little further and have your first turns points spend on your pre-game strats and then refreshing on your _opponents_ turn, so whoever goes second has some form of tangible advantage to offset getting shot up early on.
So what happens with things like chapter master strategum and stike from the shadows if a 3CP and 2CP combo is too much for turn 1 and pre game strategums come from Turn 1 the marine players can sfts 1 unit?
They are allowed a Chapter master or 2 additional relics but not both?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 21:00:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 21:07:11
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Fixture of Dakka
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In theory, you should be limited to how much you can take of that stuff. That limit is your CP available.
That change would make CMs and SftS and WWP and extra relics - among other things - effectively more expensive.
I'm not sure that that's a bad thing (but would rather CMs and relics go back to points).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 21:13:58
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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I don't see a problem with CP, my playgroup (me) seems to do well with the concept and it adds some nice flavour to the game. Just don't waste CP on Command Rerolls...
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Gets along better with animals... Go figure. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 21:35:46
Subject: Can CP be balanced?
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
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Xenomancers wrote:Not that I disagree with you here. Should we also not allow huge psychic combos turn 1? Like quicken protect spears? Or warptime with daemonic strength?
I wouldn't consider it a related problem. If you are casting multiple powers it's because you've purchased multiple or powerful psykers - no different from purchasing multiple or powerful guns or aura units (save that psychic protection is rather lopsided).
Though there is something to be said for the inability to use many defensive abilities, including psychic powers, prior to the game starting making things more lop-sided in favour of the first player.
Ice_can wrote:So what happens with things like chapter master strategum and stike from the shadows if a 3CP and 2CP combo is too much for turn 1 and pre game strategums come from Turn 1 the marine players can sfts 1 unit?
A new CP system would suggest new costing and/or a pool of floating CPs (for example 4CP to use freely and an additional 4CP refreshed each turn) that can be used to supplement your stock as required - adds a strategic element of choice between starting strong, having a mini-nova turn, an emergency defensive boost, or just making up the numbers over several turns to double-tap more expensive stratagems.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 21:36:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 23:05:28
Subject: Re:Can CP be balanced?
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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I've been out of the loop with regards to 40k for a while now (AoS), so I'm a little in the dark with CPs. What are the main issues with them again?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 23:05:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/09/04 23:16:24
Subject: Re:Can CP be balanced?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Future War Cultist wrote:I've been out of the loop with regards to 40k for a while now ( AoS), so I'm a little in the dark with CPs. What are the main issues with them again?
Stratagems are kinda like spells and CPs are kinda like mana. Some factions have the ability to generate significant amounts of CP throughout the course of a game. When competitive players soup these CP generating factions with CP-starved factions like Custodes or Knights, it's like playing a mana-hungry power build with infinite mana.
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