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I would first get rid of the "Cheer Leader" effect, and stop sharing CP between factions. And adjust from there. To me it seems strange that SM and other factions only seem to bring out their best moves when accompanied by their adoring cheerleaders (IG).

It looks like most people argee the CP system is a mess and needs some fixing.

There are some really great suggestions in this thread!

Keep ‘em coming.

Let’s hope CP can get straightened out eventually!

The above so much. How CP generated by a given detachment only effect that detachment . I've seen this suggested several times and had people complain it's to complicated to take a piece of paper, make a few columns and keep track of each detachments CP.

I would tie CP to army and Warlord choice, and a new keyword (Support). So a IG army naturally geneates 2 CP. Take a Commissar and they generate 2 additional. A support character like a priest generates 1 as well. Whereas a Space Marine army has 4 base. A captain could generate 3 and a chapter master 4. A famous leader like Calgar could be 5 setting him above other Lords and so on. This way you could incentive elite elite armies like grey knights and have them naturally generate 6 or 7 to represent superior training/equipment/supplies well armies like IG use the number approach over quality.


And within a faction you could "Theme" lists where x% of points must be spent to gain advantages like additional CP or special army traits/strategems. So a Veteran IG list must have 65% of it's points spent on Veterans or Scions. But gives +1 CP or something. A Farsight list must be 75% suits, but would let any crisis suit deep strike. These are all rough ideas but I see that as a way to encourage fluff lists while penalizing CP battery lists.

I also think modifying to every detachment after your Warlord cost 1 CP or some change like that would help.

Another way is to simply can the CP spent per round.

At 2000 points you cannot spend more than 6 CP per game round. This makes having loads of CPs less important and forces some hard decisions.

barboggo wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I've been out of the loop with regards to 40k for a while now (AoS), so I'm a little in the dark with CPs. What are the main issues with them again?

Stratagems are kinda like spells and CPs are kinda like mana. Some factions have the ability to generate significant amounts of CP throughout the course of a game. When competitive players soup these CP generating factions with CP-starved factions like Custodes or Knights, it's like playing a mana-hungry power build with infinite mana.

Ah I see. Yep, understood.

I’m in favouring of limiting CPs to the detachment that generates them, to help avoid all that ‘cheerleading’ nonsense. I’m sure it’s possible to do this.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above so much. How CP generated by a given detachment only effect that detachment . I've seen this suggested several times and had people complain it's to complicated to take a piece of paper, make a few columns and keep track of each detachments CP.

How to render useless all Detachments expect for Battalion and Brigade
LOL

Better to just make a new matched play rule "Only detachments from your warlords faction generate CP. This faction cannot be cannot be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids. You only unlock stratragems the detachment your warlord is in would unlock."

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Better to just make a new matched play rule "Only detachments from your warlords faction generate CP. This faction cannot be cannot be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids. You only unlock stratragems the detachment your warlord is in would unlock."

The issue is that destroyed any reason to take allies in 8th edition matched play.
Fix Astra Millicheese by banning Grand Strategists and Kurov's from matched play.
If your detachments don't share the sub faction keyword you loose the 3CP for battle forged.

But if you nerf the IG CP farm, people will just move to what ever is lowest point in imperium that can fit in to a normal army. So instead of 32 IG dudes we will start seeing 15 scouts and some cheapo meq hero, or something ad mecha that is cheap. Won't be as efficient as the IG stuff, and I guess it will make the eldar of all kinds happy, but the problem will stay the same.

Ally should not be the needed thing to play. It should be an option, but first most you should be able to make a working army with just your faction. GW should focus on that. Changes like bumping IG dudes by 1 point etc will just make people buy more models, but won't make the game better. And I guess most of us here ain't shop owners, so the quality of the gaming expiriance should be an important thing to look for.

CP is like Formations. It can be balanced but it won't be.

I think the real question is how far can they realistically nerf CP, and how much will it actually affect.

GW has for most of 8th shown they want to be a bit light with the nerf hand, and they move fairly slow.

These ideas about you get X Cp and Y CP per turn, and you device by the square root... Yeah not going to happen.

If they do a nerf, I suspect it would be a Proposed rule, and be something like.. after your force is chosen, choose one of your factions's Stratagems to use, and you can use those and the BRB's Stratsagems only, or something very light in that area. And I doubt you see much of any kind of relic/soup commander/cheer squad nerfs.

Reemule wrote:
I think the real question is how far can they realistically nerf CP, and how much will it actually affect.

GW has for most of 8th shown they want to be a bit light with the nerf hand, and they move fairly slow.

These ideas about you get X Cp and Y CP per turn, and you device by the square root... Yeah not going to happen.

If they do a nerf, I suspect it would be a Proposed rule, and be something like.. after your force is chosen, choose one of your factions's Stratagems to use, and you can use those and the BRB's Stratsagems only, or something very light in that area. And I doubt you see much of any kind of relic/soup commander/cheer squad nerfs.

Not happening man, that would fundamentally change how the game plays and how lists are built without actually nerfing the AM + Ally portion of the game (Brings AM, get gak tons of CPs and use other army's stratagems)

Karol wrote:
But if you nerf the IG CP farm, people will just move to what ever is lowest point in imperium that can fit in to a normal army. So instead of 32 IG dudes we will start seeing 15 scouts and some cheapo meq hero, or something ad mecha that is cheap. Won't be as efficient as the IG stuff, and I guess it will make the eldar of all kinds happy, but the problem will stay the same.

Of course it will not stay the same! Being able to get some CP slightly cheaper via allies is not a problem. If you're allying space marines for CP there definitely is no problem! Being able to buy infinite CP via a cheap guard detachment is a problem though.

Custodes and Knights are the expensive elite armies that would probably bring allies even if infinite CP trick would not exist and that is absolutely fine. Both are thematically and mechanically designed to work with allies anyway.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Reemule wrote:
I think the real question is how far can they realistically nerf CP, and how much will it actually affect.

GW has for most of 8th shown they want to be a bit light with the nerf hand, and they move fairly slow.

These ideas about you get X Cp and Y CP per turn, and you device by the square root... Yeah not going to happen.

If they do a nerf, I suspect it would be a Proposed rule, and be something like.. after your force is chosen, choose one of your factions's Stratagems to use, and you can use those and the BRB's Stratsagems only, or something very light in that area. And I doubt you see much of any kind of relic/soup commander/cheer squad nerfs.

Not happening man, that would fundamentally change how the game plays and how lists are built without actually nerfing the AM + Ally portion of the game (Brings AM, get gak tons of CPs and use other army's stratagems)

Remember, its the light hand on nerf. And the Nova top lists fall apart some when you nerft what Stratagems they get to use. In particular the Raven/Smashcaptain/Rotate Ion shields breaks down.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Better to just make a new matched play rule "Only detachments from your warlords faction generate CP. This faction cannot be cannot be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids. You only unlock stratragems the detachment your warlord is in would unlock."

This isn't a bad change, but I think it also reinforces the need to make Battle Forged be the primary generator of CPs.

If, for example, BF gave 2-3CPs per 500pts and Battalions when back to 3CPs, it would mean your proposed rule could still generate a health amount of CPs even with allied factions.
It's just that those allies would not generate further CPs or be able to use their faction specific strats or relics.

Those allied factions should still be able to pull from the CP pool to use the BRB stratagems, however.

-

BCB - Why can't it be Ynnari?

KurtAngle2 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
The above so much. How CP generated by a given detachment only effect that detachment . I've seen this suggested several times and had people complain it's to complicated to take a piece of paper, make a few columns and keep track of each detachments CP.

How to render useless all Detachments expect for Battalion and Brigade
LOL

Or maybe you take units or detachments because (shocker) they are useful units or maybe you took allies because it makes an interesting narrative list, not to break the game wide open.

 Xenomancers wrote:
See my post on how to balance CP - that is how you do it. Youll notice - the only ones who don't like it are guard players.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/761717.page

I'm a Guard player and I heartily endorse this idea. It's not like we have any shortage of ways to get more CP in-game anyways.

Pancakey wrote:
Now that the NOVA lists have exposed and much discussion has taken place, do you think the CP mechanic can be balanced?

If yes, how would it be done?

If no, what should be done?

Thanks dakka!!!

Anakin: “Can CP be balanced?”

Palpatine: “Not by GW”

Yeah, I think setting a CP max and/or a CP per turn would be the way to go. Perhaps give the various detachment a special rule or stratagem themselves to make picking one or the other worth it. Or just go back to Patrol detachments (old FOC) and screw the rest.

Honest opinion? No. There's just simply no way to do it. IMHO, GW would have to completely rewrite 8th or throw out CP and Strategems completely to balance it. I believe it'll be 9th at the earliest.

They already put some restrictions on armies to try to keep them from being overpowered (and I believe limit CP somewhat as well). But, if you look at Battalion detachments of Guard or Drukhari Kabalites, they will continue to trump all other lists in regards to CP. Are they competitive? Not sure. Do they throw CP completely out of balance? Absolutely! Is there any way to balance CP while these kinds of lists are able to be created? Nope.

If they completely got rid of CP and Strategems in 40K, it would definitely balance CP. But, it would also cause a massive backlash in many players (competitive and non-competitive) who built their current army around CP and Strategems.

SG

What if CP are relegated to Open and Narrative games only. You know, those bad bad terrible naughty words to Tournament players. Have fun with your cheese tactics in a game system where nothing really matters.

Way too drastic I know to be considered... but it would fix things up real quick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A lot of the Stratagems are fluffy, cinematic, and game changing, much more suited for the Open and Narrative playstyles anyway.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
What if CP are relegated to Open and Narrative games only. You know, those bad bad terrible naughty words to Tournament players. Have fun with your cheese tactics in a game system where nothing really matters.

Way too drastic I know to be considered... but it would fix things up real quick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A lot of the Stratagems are fluffy, cinematic, and game changing, much more suited for the Open and Narrative playstyles anyway.

I would agree with this... but they "fixed" IK's not being able to hit into buildings with a Stratagem. I'd like some kind of fix to that if CP/Strats went away from Match.

pm713 wrote:
CP is like Formations. It can be balanced but it won't be.

Given that all the flavor of 8th edition lies in CP-ness, what will the future hold for 8th ed?

Pancakey wrote:

pm713 wrote:
CP is like Formations. It can be balanced but it won't be.

Given that all the flavor of 8th edition lies in CP-ness, what will the future hold for 8th ed?

Removal is my guess. Formations had the flavour of 7th and look at them now.

Strategems are hardly balanced between Codexes. Its a great idea but terrible implementation. Each codex needs to utilize the CP it generates and no others. On top of that the whole set of Strategems needs a new pass through to see if they are balanced for the number of CP they cost vs how many the Codex can generate. I suspect this is too much to expect.

While I see GW doing something. I suspect it will be hamfisted and break something else.