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Made in us
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought





SC, USA

So, as I understand it, every unit has a power rating and a points cost. What's your experience so far with power rating representing actual capability in game? Yes, there are many other factors that play in, but thats the question I am interested in at the moment. Also, do you find points costs to be directly related to power rating, or are there some units that are less efficient?
   
Made in us
Clousseau




My experience is that you get roughly the same gaming experience from either power level or points.

They can both be easily abused and busted wide open and both often are.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Pretty much same. Both are broken as hell but what is broken changes a bit. Some units are hurt a bit, some are helped.

This btw with WYSIWYG rule.

If you are looking for balanced game you don't use either method. If you are just looking for quick&easy game regardless of balance use the one you feel like.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Somerdale, NJ, USA

The only problem with Points vs. Power Level is add-on equipment for armies that lack it.

A 100 PL Necron army vs. almost any other 100 PL army will be severely outmatched due to wargear, equipment, sponsons, etc..

That same 100 PL Necron forces versus a 100 PL SM army converted to Points could be close to 500 Points weaker.

"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

- 8k /// - 5k /// - 5k /// - 6k /// - 6k /// - 4k /// - 4k /// Cust - 3k 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Power level is a less accurate alternative the Point costs.
The only reason you have to play Power level is because you cba to do the math and need to throw an army together quickly.
   
Made in se
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Sweden

 Lord Clinto wrote:
The only problem with Points vs. Power Level is add-on equipment for armies that lack it.

A 100 PL Necron army vs. almost any other 100 PL army will be severely outmatched due to wargear, equipment, sponsons, etc..

That same 100 PL Necron forces versus a 100 PL SM army converted to Points could be close to 500 Points weaker.


If they are not the same in performance/points this could actually be an improvement...

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





 grizgrin wrote:
So, as I understand it, every unit has a power rating and a points cost. What's your experience so far with power rating representing actual capability in game?
With power levels you effectively gimp your list by not taking all of the most expensive options. For instance a sister with a stormbolter vs multimelta, or acolyte with a chainsword vs thunderhammer - same points.

Power points have also (AFAIK) been excluded from all of the balance passes so far.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





A.T. wrote:
 grizgrin wrote:
So, as I understand it, every unit has a power rating and a points cost. What's your experience so far with power rating representing actual capability in game?
With power levels you effectively gimp your list by not taking all of the most expensive options. For instance a sister with a stormbolter vs multimelta, or acolyte with a chainsword vs thunderhammer - same points.

Power points have also (AFAIK) been excluded from all of the balance passes so far.


Presumably you mean "sale marketing passes" as GW doesn't aim for balance.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




They update power level with codexes, not the chapter approved books.

All I've used so far is power level, and we always use WYSIWYG to ensure no nonsense.

I use power level because every point spent on a weapon or upgrade that doesn't get into it's optimal range is wasted.

If you decide to load out all of your units with Las cannons and end up fighting a fast melee army you wasted points. With power level you take a little of everything because there is no reason not to.

   
Made in us
Clousseau




Points are by no means balanced or anywhere near balanced. When list building you are actively trying to destroy balance and the points values in 40k are a laughable joke when it comes to trying to enforce some semblance of balance.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
The only problem with Points vs. Power Level is add-on equipment for armies that lack it.

A 100 PL Necron army vs. almost any other 100 PL army will be severely outmatched due to wargear, equipment, sponsons, etc..

That same 100 PL Necron forces versus a 100 PL SM army converted to Points could be close to 500 Points weaker.


Yeah, I think the armies need to have similar available upgrades in order for Power Level to be balanced.

As an example:

10 Necrons with no upgrades - 120pts
10 Necrons with maxed upgrades - 120pts

10 Guardsmen with no upgrades - 40pts
10 Guardsmen with maxed upgrades - 81pts

10 Kabalite Warriors with no upgrades - 60pts
10 Kabalite Warriors with maxed upgrades - 114

In these cases, the Kabalites and Guardsmen are basically getting the base cost of their unit in upgrades for free, whilst the Necrons are getting no benefit whatsoever.

On the other hand, Dark Eldar vs IG would probably be okay using Power Levels.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Power level is a good rough measure of a units "medium" worth. Meaning what it costs somewhere in between barebones and fully loaded.

In smaller games (<1500pts or <30PL) Power levels between 2 armies are about as balanced as points are, assuming neither player is specifically "gaming" the system and loading out all potential wargear they can have.
But the larger the game, the more potential there is for 1 army to be able to have more options without even trying.

What I do like about PLs is that there is a formula to calculate it and it is accurate about 95% of the time.
The formula is this:
Minimum points cost + Maximum points cost (without adding additional models) divide by 2 (i.e. taking the average) then divide again by 20 and round. This will be a unit's starting PL in almost every situation.

I say ALMOST every situation, but really, I have yet to find a unit that DOESN"T adhere to this formula. Even units that have had their points adjusted via Chapter Approved still end up with the same PL.

 vipoid wrote:

Yeah, I think the armies need to have similar available upgrades in order for Power Level to be balanced.

As an example:

10 Necrons with no upgrades - 120pts
10 Necrons with maxed upgrades - 120pts

10 Guardsmen with no upgrades - 40pts
10 Guardsmen with maxed upgrades - 81pts

10 Kabalite Warriors with no upgrades - 60pts
10 Kabalite Warriors with maxed upgrades - 114

In these cases, the Kabalites and Guardsmen are basically getting the base cost of their unit in upgrades for free, whilst the Necrons are getting no benefit whatsoever.

On the other hand, Dark Eldar vs IG would probably be okay using Power Levels.

But keep in mind that the PL for Guardsman and Kabalites is NOT based on their un-upgraded cost, nor their fully upgraded cost, but the average of the 2.
Power levels are meant to by the average cost of a unit, so of course it breaks down when you TRY to break the system and go fully loaded
Don't do that and PLs work just fine for all armies

-

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 13:57:46


   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Both systems can be broken. Power Level can be broken more easily, but points can be restrictive, stifling, and just as broken.

I think the way to use them is depending on your mindset. If you're going in with the mindset of "chuck models on the table/fancy equipment you'd never normally consider/quick game/beerhammer", I think that Power Level is perfect.
It breaks if you go in with a "OPTIMIZE EVERYTHING/perfect balance" mindset (even though perfect balance is a myth in 40k due to the IGOUGO ruleset), which is far more suited for points play.

Both have strengths, and neither should be removed.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Galef wrote:

Power levels are meant to by the average cost of a unit, so of course it breaks down when you TRY to break the system and go fully loaded
Don't do that and PLs work just fine for all armies

-

The problem there is where is that imaginary line in the sand ?

look at a 5 man squad of Devastator Marines ... 4 bolters... 4 Heavy Bolters ... 4 Las cannons .. ??

a mortis quad las contemptor (modelled WYSIWYG) .. or should I counts as the assault cannon one

So , as a Necrons player I look at a marine list with all the juicy upgrades .. which units do I accept as 'average' for PL and which ones can i start flipping tables because it's showing that player an advantage that he didn't even know he had?

it's like looking at an expensive a la carte menu that has no prices on it, it only works if both people at the restaurant table have unmeasured wealth ...

but you only have 20 quid in your wallet ... so I'd rather go to burger king and see what I can get for my money compared to the next guy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 14:29:50


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Galef wrote:

But keep in mind that the PL for Guardsman and Kabalites is NOT based on their un-upgraded cost, nor their fully upgraded cost, but the average of the 2.


Is this actually written somewhere?

 Galef wrote:

Power levels are meant to by the average cost of a unit, so of course it breaks down when you TRY to break the system and go fully loaded
Don't do that and PLs work just fine for all armies-


Oh, wonderful. Yet another way of "balancing" armies that requires the players to do all the work themselves.

What is even the point of having this system if it is incapable of doing the one job it exists to do (balancing the armies against one another), unless the players also follow a set of unwritten rules known only to the game designers.

You are blaming players for doing what the system actively encourages them to do. I'm sorry but if you have a system that makes all upgrades free, you are encouraging players to take extra upgrades because there is literally no cost to their doing so. And it's not even about them trying to "break the system" (which, incidentally, is exactly what the playtesters should have done so that the rules could safeguard against it). If I'm offered the chance to take upgrades that I rarely bother with (because they're ineffective, overcosted or whatever), then I'm almost certainly going to take it. e.g. taking melee weapons on IG/Kabalite sergeants. Maybe Blast Pistols on Kabalite Sybarites, since I'd never actually pay for that kind of crap. Basically, I'd take the opportunity to try out gear that I rarely ever use, and see if anything surprises me. If that amounts to 'breaking the game', then I'd suggest that the issue lies not with me but with a game system that's apparently suffering from brittle bone disease.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

The problem there is where is that imaginary line in the sand ?
The line is where you and your opponent wish to draw it. And that's the point. PL should not be used for competitive play, but works perfectly for 2 players who just want to throw down what they have without micro managing unit upgrades. You just play with the wargear your units were built with.
Player communication is vital for Power Levels to not be abused to field an army with max upgrades.
Conversely, if both players can fully upgrade and just want to try out new things, that's fine too.

Points should be used if you intend to play competitively and/or do not have the luxury of discussing your list and your opponents lists AS THEY ARE BUILT.
Points end up being the default for this reason, but that does not mean Power levels do not have their purpose.

-

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Galef wrote:
Reanimation_Protocol wrote:

The problem there is where is that imaginary line in the sand ?
The line is where you and your opponent wish to draw it. And that's the point. PL should not be used for competitive play, but works perfectly for 2 players who just want to throw down what they have without micro managing unit upgrades. You just play with the wargear your units were built with.
Player communication is vital for Power Levels to not be abused to field an army with max upgrades.
Conversely, if both players can fully upgrade and just want to try out new things, that's fine too.

Points should be used if you intend to play competitively and/or do not have the luxury of discussing your list and your opponents lists AS THEY ARE BUILT.
Points end up being the default for this reason, but that does not mean Power levels do not have their purpose.

-

Sorry I agree with Vipoid, Power level is wonderful thought exercise

it's the original incarnation of the Matrix where it was a paradise but Humanity went insane because they couldn't conceive of it being real.

so the Matrix was reborn with points values instead and everyone grumbled and hated it ... but it worked soe we get along.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

That's a decent and funny analogy. I like it.
I still think PLs can be used, but only if you know your opponent already and neither of you are power gamers.
Since that apparently is a rarity these days, of course Points would be the default.

-

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




WYSIWYG stops most of the net based sky is falling worry about power level. Yes in theory there is some pretty silly stuff you can push out not having to pay for upgrades but I doubt most people actually build their models that way because it's usually not points efficient.
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

My friends and I played PL on Sunday, and it worked out pretty well. We also all used Index armies, because not everyone had updated books handy. It was fun all around. I know my army would have gotten a tad cheaper if I had my updated book, but who cares; we had a soda and pretzel game.

I think my tournament days are over, so I’m 100% satisfied using power levels as a Daemon player. Yes...I have minor amounts of upgrades and I’m okay with power levels in fun games with friends.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





St. Louis, Missouri USA

We actually have two of these threads going at once. Impressive.

This is a game designed for players to have fun.
Balanced army lists are equal and fair, resulting in more fun for both players.
[Power Level] is a points based system.
[Points] is a points based system.
[Power Level] is less granular points than [Points].
Less granularity leads to more imbalance.
More imbalance is less fun for both players.
Less fun is the opposite of the game's intentions.

[Power Level] filled a hole that didn't exist to accomplish a task worse than a system that already existed.

 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




If I need to move 6 feet to the left, does it matter that I moved 73"?

No, it doesn't because I'm standing in the same place.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





St. Louis, Missouri USA

 Crimson Devil wrote:
If I need to move 6 feet to the left, does it matter that I moved 73"?

No, it doesn't because I'm standing in the same place.
Would you rather play darts on a current dartboard or a board that had 2 spots: 1 point and bullseye?

 
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




I haven't found anyone who prefers power, so I have no idea how it actually plays.

I like the idea of it, though, because stuff like power fist sergeants are fun.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




 deviantduck wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
If I need to move 6 feet to the left, does it matter that I moved 73"?

No, it doesn't because I'm standing in the same place.
Would you rather play darts on a current dartboard or a board that had 2 spots: 1 point and bullseye?


That's the thing. Points give you the illusion of playing on a regular dart board, but in reality you're throwing javelins.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Galef wrote:
That's a decent and funny analogy. I like it.
I still think PLs can be used, but only if you know your opponent already and neither of you are power gamers.
Since that apparently is a rarity these days, of course Points would be the default.

-


What does that even mean. I wish my army would have great rules. So I guess am a power gamer, my opponent likes to play a w40k army based on w40k books. So somehow am the evil one, and he is the good one. only my army is GK and it sucks, and his is eldar and his casual list kick the living hell out of people even lists that were not a hard counter.


That's the thing. Points give you the illusion of playing on a regular dart board, but in reality you're throwing javelins.

Points are you get 11 peeps and they have 11 peeps playing football, only they are from a sports school at 2 of them are last class weight 90kg and are two heads taller then you.

Power levels are you get 11 peeps, because that is how many of you are, but they have 40 people and they use all of them.

One of those things is a game, maybe an unfair one, the other is just a brawl.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

I've found that Power Levels make list building for narrative games much easier. No need to worry about the fiddly points, it's too granular sometimes, being 5 points over in a 2000 point game isn't cool, but being under, sure, even though that 5 points is 0.25% of the max.

I've always run with points having a +- 1 % margin.

Powerleves nix that issue. And if there's a mis balance in PL, due to narrative list building, the book actually tells you how to address that by give CP.

I've seen many posts where people say that 40k should point things on a per unit, rather than per model basis. It's a good idea. PL is basically that, but if you bring that up, the folks advocating per unit pricing backtrack.


213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Blndmage wrote:
I've found that Power Levels make list building for narrative games much easier. No need to worry about the fiddly points, it's too granular sometimes, being 5 points over in a 2000 point game isn't cool, but being under, sure, even though that 5 points is 0.25% of the max.

I've always run with points having a +- 1 % margin.

Powerleves nix that issue. And if there's a mis balance in PL, due to narrative list building, the book actually tells you how to address that by give CP.

I've seen many posts where people say that 40k should point things on a per unit, rather than per model basis. It's a good idea. PL is basically that, but if you bring that up, the folks advocating per unit pricing backtrack.



Yeah, I am not suprised that someone who thinks cheating by having 5 pts more is no big deal, thinks that having an army 400-600pts more then their opponents is not a big deal either.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Karol wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
I've found that Power Levels make list building for narrative games much easier. No need to worry about the fiddly points, it's too granular sometimes, being 5 points over in a 2000 point game isn't cool, but being under, sure, even though that 5 points is 0.25% of the max.

I've always run with points having a +- 1 % margin.

Powerleves nix that issue. And if there's a mis balance in PL, due to narrative list building, the book actually tells you how to address that by give CP.

I've seen many posts where people say that 40k should point things on a per unit, rather than per model basis. It's a good idea. PL is basically that, but if you bring that up, the folks advocating per unit pricing backtrack.



Yeah, I am not suprised that someone who thinks cheating by having 5 pts more is no big deal, thinks that having an army 400-600pts more then their opponents is not a big deal either.



But it's ok, if you can't get to the exact points total with one army, while others can? Say due to a lack of wargear to fill out points.

You might have missed that I'm talking about narrative style games. Where the unit choices are purely thematic the to situation, not based on efficiency.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





Some units are open for abuse with Power Levels, but generally speaking if both players aim for 100 power for example, points wise they would be within 50-100 points of each other.






This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 23:35:29


"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
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