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The rules you are claiming 'as written' do not appear to actually be written anywhere at all.

Meanwhile you are studiously ignoring the rule of three as it is written.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Odd that you won't give me a reference. Again, I searched it and what you are claiming doesn't appear to exist and is directly contrary to the Codex rules.

Oh, so you're also inventing a requirement that you have pick all six datasheets at the same time? Do you have a non-existent BRB reference for that, too?

Look, I found the rule you referenced (which you wouldn't provide either), and it appears to prove you wrong:

Codex:Craftworld wrote:
If an Asuryani datasheet does not specify which craftworld is from, it will have the <CRAFTWORLD> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which craftworld that unit is from. You simply replace the <CRAFTWORLD> keyword in every instance on that unit's datasheet with the name of your chosen craftworld.

Wow, would you look at that. I guess datasheets don't multiply magically when choosing keywords.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Oh, so you're also inventing a requirement that you have pick all six datasheets at the same time?

No one is "inventing" anything. You have to select the datasheet in order to know if it has a <keyword> you can even replace in the first place.
So after you have selected 3 Fire Prism datasheets, you are done regardless of what <keywords> you decided to replace AFTER selecting them.

-

 Excommunicatus wrote:
The same datasheets that have different words on them now you've replaced <CRAFTWORLD>?

It quite openly and explicitly says 'replace'. When you replace it with something else, you make it different.

You make it no longer the same.

Unless you're writing in your codex the datasheet doesn't have different words in it, and in that case they would all still be the same datasheet with the words you scribbled in.

 Jidmah wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Which is exactly what I said. You bring six fire prisms, you include the datasheet six times.

And by that logic I can't include 3 units of Blood Angel Aggressors and 3 units of Ultramarine Aggressors. In fact I can't use the Ultramarine or Blood Angel Aggressors at all, I have to use the Space Wolf ones.

No because, those are three datasheets from three different codices. You can physically lay them next to each other.

Please stop your false analogies to derail actual RAW discussion.

So if the requirement is to "physically lay them next to each other" then Calgar never buffs anything except other Ultramarines Special Characters.

You can't have it both ways.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I simply adore that you're importing all of these convoluted methods instead of just using the actual definitions of the actual words.

The rules says you replace it on the Datasheet, not in the list, but nice try.

That you have to work this hard to try and make it workable says everything anyone needs to know about the rule of three.

Keywords are replaced after selecting a datasheet, this is clearly written in the BRB.

Therefore, in order to have 3 Iyanden fire prisms and 3 allaitoc fire prisms, you would have to select the same datasheet six times and then replace the keywords.

If you are playing by the rule of 3, you are forbidden from selecting the same datasheet six times.

It's as simple as following the rules.

This.

To complete the final nail on the coffin of this useless discussion:

Exact quote of the rule of three:

"NUMBER OF TIMES EACH
DATASHEET CAN BE INCLUDED*"

According to the rule from the eldar codex, you cannot choose keywords for a datasheet unless you include it in your army. You have no permission to include it more than thrice (at 2000 points).

And as has been explained, they are different datasheets because they have different keywords.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Which is exactly what I said. You bring six fire prisms, you include the datasheet six times.

And by that logic I can't include 3 units of Blood Angel Aggressors and 3 units of Ultramarine Aggressors. In fact I can't use the Ultramarine or Blood Angel Aggressors at all, I have to use the Space Wolf ones.

No because, those are three datasheets from three different codices. You can physically lay them next to each other.

Please stop your false analogies to derail actual RAW discussion.

So if the requirement is to "physically lay them next to each other" then Calgar never buffs anything except other Ultramarines Special Characters.

You can't have it both ways.

What exactly was your argument? Please keep on topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And as has been explained, they are different datasheets because they have different keywords.

This has been proven wrong by RAW.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And as has been explained, they are different datasheets because they have different keywords.

Not when you're selecting them, they all have <KEYWORD> before the replacement.

Lest you still not see plain logic, this from the Rulebook FAQ:

Q1) Some units, like Carnifexes and Leman Russ Battle Tanks, can contain up to 3 models each, but after they are set up on the battlefield, they each become individual units. How many of these models can I include in my army if I’m using the Organised Events guidelines for, say, a 2,000 point game? A1) You can include up to 3 units in a 2,000 point game, meaning you could include up to 9 of these models.

Given Russes have <REGIMENT> that is functionally identical to <CRAFTWORLD> we have clear guidance, and proof Exvommunucatis and Baconcatbug are wrong. RAW.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Odd that you won't give me a reference. Again, I searched it and what you are claiming doesn't appear to exist and is directly contrary to the Codex rules.

Oh, so you're also inventing a requirement that you have pick all six datasheets at the same time? Do you have a non-existent BRB reference for that, too?

Look, I found the rule you referenced (which you wouldn't provide either), and it appears to prove you wrong:

Codex:Craftworld wrote:
If an Asuryani datasheet does not specify which craftworld is from, it will have the <CRAFTWORLD> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which craftworld that unit is from. You simply replace the <CRAFTWORLD> keyword in every instance on that unit's datasheet with the name of your chosen craftworld.

Wow, would you look at that. I guess datasheets don't multiply magically when choosing keywords.

So, your quote says that you when you include such A unit (singular) in your army, you select its keyword. That's not what you said before. You said you had to select all six before you selected your keyword and claimed it was clearly written in the BRB, which it isn't.

Now you have a Codex quote that says exactly the same thing as I said, that you select the Keyword when you include the unit. So I include a Fire Prism. I select Alaitoc. I include another. I select Iyanden. I have two datasheets that are different, not the same, not identical.

There is no rule that says you have to take all the datasheets and then select your keywords, that appears to be yet another invention. An invention that is in direct contravention to what the rule actually does say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Lest you still not see plain logic, this from the Rulebook FAQ:

Q1) Some units, like Carnifexes and Leman Russ Battle Tanks, can contain up to 3 models each, but after they are set up on the battlefield, they each become individual units. How many of these models can I include in my army if I’m using the Organised Events guidelines for, say, a 2,000 point game? A1) You can include up to 3 units in a 2,000 point game, meaning you could include up to 9 of these models.

Given Russes have <REGIMENT> that is functionally identical to <CRAFTWORLD> we have clear guidance, and proof Exvommunucatis and Baconcatbug are wrong. RAW.

You are going to hurt yourself stretching like that without a proper warmup.

That question and answer does not speak to this situation. Keywords are not mentioned or considered.

They very much are. Also, stop the insults.

- How many Russes does your incorrect interpretation allow? (Answer: infinite, as you just invent new Regiments)
- How many do GW tell us we’re allowed? (Answer: Three squadrons, ergo the same Datasheet chosen three times)

See?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
They very much are. Also, stop the insults.

How many Russes does your incorrect interpretation allow?
How many do GW tell us we’re allowed?
See?

They are not considering keywords. Where does it say keywords in the question?

See my edit for your answer. It does pertain to this discussion neatly.

How many Regiments are there? Multiply that by three.

There's no rule giving you permission to invent your own Regiment <KEYWORD>, just like there's no mention of Keywords in your quote, which you claim is a definitive answer on Keywords.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
They very much are. Also, stop the insults.

How many Russes does your incorrect interpretation allow?
How many do GW tell us we’re allowed?
See?

They are not considering keywords. Where does it say keywords in the question?

Of course GW is not considering Keywords. THAT'S THE POINT. You do not consider keywords when selecting datasheets to include in your list.
You change <keywords> AFTER the datasheet is selected and prior to that, the rule of 3 only allows you to SELECT a datasheet 3 times

-

 Excommunicatus wrote:
How many Regiments are there? Multiply that by three.

There's no rule giving you permission to invent your own Regiment <KEYWORD>, just like there's no mention of Keywords in your quote, which you claim is a definitive answer on Keywords.

Go and read your Codexes, then show me where it limits you in what you name your Regiment/Craftworld. It doesn’t, so you won’t be able to. There are infinite Regiments possible because you are not limited to just the ones named in the book; indeed, the book gives provision for custom ones and how to handle them.

Also I claimed that FAQ gives us the answer to this conversation, not all Keyword discussions. Cute misrepresentation. Cut that out too eh? Try and argue politely and without being disingenuous and you’ll get along a lot better.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

So, your quote says that you when you include such A unit (singular) in your army, you select its keyword. That's not what you said before. You said you had to select all six before you selected your keyword and claimed it was clearly written in the BRB, which it isn't.

Nope, that was just you twisting my argument.

I said you have to select datasheets before picking their keywords. Rule of 3 prevents you from selecting datasheets in the first place.

Now you have a Codex quote that says exactly the same thing as I said, that you select the Keyword when you include the unit. So I include a Fire Prism. I select Alaitoc. I include another. I select Iyanden. I have two datasheets that are different, not the same, not identical.

As soon as you pick the fourth datasheet and replace its keywords you have broken the rules and created an invalid list for organized play.

There is no rule that says you have to take all the datasheets and then select your keywords, that appears to be yet another invention. An invention that is in direct contravention to what the rule actually does say.

The only thing that's invented here is you claiming that datasheets magically become something new after adding them to your army.
You cannot select keywords without including a datasheet in your army. You have no permission to include more than three of a datasheet in your army.

Process of including a datasheet in your army.
1. Pick a datasheet
2. Include that datasheet in your army
3. When you include the datasheet, chose a keyword

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
How many Regiments are there? Multiply that by three.

There's no rule giving you permission to invent your own Regiment <KEYWORD>, just like there's no mention of Keywords in your quote, which you claim is a definitive answer on Keywords.

Go and read your Codexes, then show me where it limits you in what you name your Regiment/Craftworld. It doesn’t, so you won’t be able to. There are infinite Regiments possible because you are not limited to just the ones named in the book; indeed, the book gives provision for custom ones and how to handle them.

Also I claimed that FAQ gives us the answer to this conversation, not all Keyword discussions. Cute misrepresentation. Cut that out too eh? Try and argue politely and without being disingenuous and you’ll get along a lot better.

And to add to this, GW even had an FAQ that used regiment <Ultramarines> as a example, which clearly isn't in the Guard codex, but can be used to replace <Regiment>
While you only get benefits for specific words used to replace <keywords> all codicies allow to you use whatever word you want, so near infinite options

-

That is yet another utter fabrication. You are not given permission to invent Keywords anywhere in C:AM.

A definitive answer. Not THE definitive answer.

‘Utter fabrication’? Oh dear. You really don’t want to be wrong, do you?

You can name your Regiment whatever you like, and choose one of the Regimebtal Doctrines to reflect its fighting style. Same with a Chapter, Craftworld, Hive Fleet etc. You are not limited to the few ‘named’ ones. You can pick anything (short of trying to make two different Coxedes have synergy by picking the same... but that’s another topic). The Codexes explain how to go about this.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
That is yet another utter fabrication. You are not given permission to invent Keywords anywhere in C:AM.

A definitive answer. Not THE definitive answer.

Codex:Craftworld wrote:
If an Asuryani datasheet does not specify which craftworld is from, it will have the <CRAFTWORLD> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which craftworld that unit is from. You simply replace the <CRAFTWORLD> keyword in every instance on that unit's datasheet with the name of your chosen craftworld.

If the name of my chosen craftworld is LDKFNOSD, then I am perfectly given permission to use that in all instances per my Codex. I am NOT limited to the 5 craftworlds that grant other bonuses.

-

Indeed, the Astra Militarum Codex even gives you an example of how to do this with the Ventrillian Nobles, which is not one of the ‘named Regiments’. So ‘utter fabrication’? I think not, given it’s spelt out in the Codex.

C:AM tells you that if your regiment doesn't have a Doctrine to use one as printed. It does not give you permission to invent a Keyword.

There are no Asyurani datasheets in C:AM, nor Regiments in C:Eldar. Also, that underline doesn't give you permission to invent a Craftworld.

All of this instead of just accepting the ordinary meaning of the ordinary words in the rule, eh?

 Excommunicatus wrote:
C:AM tells you that if your regiment doesn't have a Doctrine to use one as printed. It does not give you permission to invent a Keyword.

There are no Asyurani datasheets in C:AM, nor Regiments in C:Eldar. Had I been asked if you could name infinite Craftworlds I'd have said yes.

The fact that you can have infinite Craftworlds does not in any way invalidate my main point, which is that the rule of three is a badly-written and ill-conceived rule. That it allows infinites is evidence OF this, not against it.

Shtappppp.

Seriously, you can name your Regiment or Craftworld whatever you like. That is not even in question. Not remotely, given they issued an FAQ to curb abuse of the system. So no need to address anymore claims you can’t name your dudes what you like.

Of course there are no Eldar in the Guard book, don’t be silly. <CRAFTWORLD> and <REGIMENT> are functionally identical Keywords but for different armies... tell me they’re not. You can’t. They are. So stop with attempting to nitpick something when I didn’t make an error.

Anyway, diversions aside, go back to addressing my point above... GW have said you can include the Leman Russ Datasheet three times in an army. So that is all we need to prove your view that you can count different <CRAFTWORLD> Prisms as being different Datasheets to be incorrect. If you were right, GW couldn’t say the Guard can take 3 x 3 Russes max. As they did, you’re wrong. Different example of the same rule. If you can’t see how it applies spend a bit of time working through my logic and step away from the keyboard for a bit.

You're adding parts to the questions answer that are not there.

Let's use a better example: Space Marines.
There are about 1,000 SM chapters per the fluff. 3 have their own Codex and the "vanilla" Codex have 7 others.
The other 990 can still be played, but subbing out <Chapter Tactic> with the appropriate Chapter name. This is allowed in the Marine Codex

Are you actually reading the rule of 3 as saying that Marines can have 3,000 of the "same" datasheet just by replacing the <Chapter Tactic>?
Because that's ridiculous. The RIGHT answer is that datasheets are selected FIRST, then <keywords> can be swapped.
Rule of 3 prevents SELECTING the same datasheet more than 3 times.

-

 Galef wrote:
Let's use a better example: Space Marines.
There are about 1,000 SM chapters per the fluff. 3 have their own Codex and the "vanilla" Codex have 7 others.
The other 990 can still be played, but subbing out <Chapter Tactic> with the appropriate Chapter name. This is allowed in the Marine Codex

Are you actually reading the rule of 3 as saying that Marines can have 3,000 of the "same" datasheet just by replacing the <Chapter Tactic>?
Because that's ridiculous. The RIGHT answer is that datasheets are selected FIRST, then <keywords> can be swapped.
Rule of 3 prevents SELECTING the same datasheet more than 3 times.

-

White Scars Terminators are not the same as Ultramarines Terminators, both in keywords and rules. They have different datasheets. By arguing they don't, that means I can use an Ultramarines Captain to buff White Scars.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
That is yet another utter fabrication. You are not given permission to invent Keywords anywhere in C:AM.

A definitive answer. Not THE definitive answer.

Designer's Commentary:
Q: If I create an Astra Militarum
Regiment of my own and name them,
for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, and
I then also create an Adeptus Astartes
Chapter of my own choosing, and also
call them the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, do the
abilities that work on the <Regiment>
and/or <Chapter> keywords now work
on both the Astra Militarum and Adeptus
Astartes units?
A: No.

Sure sounds you can have the <Regiment> of <Excomunnicatus's Snarky McSnarksters> fighting the battle...

But only 3 of each datasheet.