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 SHUPPET wrote:

 Draco wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.

And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?

Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"

That's not trolling. "NEVER" is a valid answer.

Could you give some examples? As non American I have troubles to see which minis are offensive as feth. I know they steal for different cultures and twist those things (The Council of Nicaea, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vostroyans).

What's the real life cultural reference for Dark Angels, out of curiosity? I thought they were just kinda based off generic medievil culture pre-Imperium, and afterwards, god knows. Cult culture? lol

The Deathwing used to have Native American influences. I think they dropped that a long time ago though. Now they are just Dark Angels in white armor, iirc. Dark Angels themselves take heavy influence from European medieval military monastic orders, even more so than the other chapters which are supposed to be warrior monks as well.

By “crosses” I think you specifically mean rosaries, which (unlike crosses) are generally not worn on one’s person unless on the belt of a Dominican friar.

Speaking of the rosary, 40k is in very large part based on the Black Legend - i.e., a mass of Anglophonic Protestant propaganda demonising Catholicism generally and in particular the Spanish. In its foundational elements, 40k is very explicitly carrying on a particularly British anti-Catholic prejudice that far from being a dead letter is in fact still troublesome even to this day, and even here across the Atlantic in the USA.

And yet this is not really cause for concern (IMO, speaking as a practicing Catholic) because, after all, 40k is an intentionally ridiculous setting with nothing whatsoever to offer as far as insight into the real world. I’m not so much concerned that 40k has any serious chance of meaningfully being offensive so much as the setting itself is actually at risk of importing images, symbols, tones, moods, etc., that “don’t fit” (e.g., the notion of 40k YA novels), thereby losing its distinctive gothic absurdity.

Put it another way, 40k has much more to fear from IRL than IRL has to fear from 40k.

I don't know how we have reached a point where "cultural influences"=racist portrayal of a culture.

Like... we can't make something without cultural influences because we , humans, are culture. We need to take inspiration from something and that "something" is always gonna be real world inspirations.

You can't look at a race, nation, faction, group, etc... in fantasy, sci-fi, or whatever fantasy world, and not see some inspirations on real world cultures, political ideologies, religions, etc...

But you can take that inspiration and create a good product, or you can take it and make a mockery of it. And in most cases, taking just the aesthetic because you happen to like it, is totally fine.
You have Warcraft for a clear example of a universe that normally just takes the aesthetic of certain cultures and not that much of the real world culture , like caribbean trols, or Inca Trolls, Viking Giants, Egiptian lion-centaurs, native american minotaurs. I suppose some people will find the use of an specific aesthetic offensive. But I believe as long as it is not use to mock that culture, is just the external recognition of how cool that thing looks.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Draco wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.

And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?

Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"

That's not trolling. "NEVER" is a valid answer.

Could you give some examples? As non American I have troubles to see which minis are offensive as feth. I know they steal for different cultures and twist those things (The Council of Nicaea, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vostroyans).

What's the real life cultural reference for Dark Angels, out of curiosity? I thought they were just kinda based off generic medievil culture pre-Imperium, and afterwards, god knows. Cult culture? lol

The Deathwing used to have Native American influences. I think they dropped that a long time ago though. Now they are just Dark Angels in white armor, iirc. Dark Angels themselves take heavy influence from European medieval military monastic orders, even more so than the other chapters which are supposed to be warrior monks as well.

Way back in the day the home world of the recruits for Space Marines played a larger role in their background. The general DA background is European medieval monastic order based but the DA's background always had Caliban being destroyed so they had to recruit from other worlds. The original background for the Deathwing were that a group of terminators returned to their home planet to recruit some new space marines and found it overrun with genestealers. It is hinted at that the planets culture was basically a Native American one and the terminators went on a mad purging spree eventually wiping out the genestealer infestation but basically all or almost all died by the end. The other Deathwing painted their armor white in their honor and started wearing the feathers that the Deathwing terminators all have.

I am fairly sure this has all been retconned since but some of the old fluff is weird.

Nah, that fluff isn't weird.
Weird would be Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clouseau.

Yeah, also old Deathwing terminators had names like "Clouded sky" and things like that.

They just need to revamp, update plus release some OP new units for Sisters of Battle and you will see lots of female representation on the board.

 Galas wrote:

But you can take that inspiration and create a good product, or you can take it and make a mockery of it. And in most cases, taking just the aesthetic because you happen to like it, is totally fine.
You have Warcraft for a clear example of a universe that normally just takes the aesthetic of certain cultures and not that much of the real world culture , like caribbean trols, or Inca Trolls, Viking Giants, Egiptian lion-centaurs, native american minotaurs. I suppose some people will find the use of an specific aesthetic offensive. But I believe as long as it is not use to mock that culture, is just the external recognition of how cool that thing looks.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

Whilst I agree with your overall point. Warcraft is a bad example. Their humans are very European, you cannot even give them properly black skin colour. Same with elves. However, more 'monstrous' races pilfer from non-european cultures, Caribbean trolls, native american minotaurs etc. And of course (like GW!) they had pygmies. They had a diminutive primitive gobliny species that spoke with mock African/Arabian sounding language named after real group from real world. And this was quite recently, unlike GW's pygmies that were decades ago.

Taking inspiration from real cultures is absolutely fine, but perhaps don't then transplant those cultures in to weird mosnster people while humans and very human-looking elves are pale Europeans. That is very othering.

But yeah, Black Panther is great example how to do this sort of thing correctly, and I really don't see any issue with African themed Space Marine chapter done in similar manner.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Draco wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.

And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?

Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"

That's not trolling. "NEVER" is a valid answer.

Could you give some examples? As non American I have troubles to see which minis are offensive as feth. I know they steal for different cultures and twist those things (The Council of Nicaea, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vostroyans).

What's the real life cultural reference for Dark Angels, out of curiosity? I thought they were just kinda based off generic medievil culture pre-Imperium, and afterwards, god knows. Cult culture? lol

The Deathwing used to have Native American influences. I think they dropped that a long time ago though. Now they are just Dark Angels in white armor, iirc. Dark Angels themselves take heavy influence from European medieval military monastic orders, even more so than the other chapters which are supposed to be warrior monks as well.

Way back in the day the home world of the recruits for Space Marines played a larger role in their background. The general DA background is European medieval monastic order based but the DA's background always had Caliban being destroyed so they had to recruit from other worlds. The original background for the Deathwing were that a group of terminators returned to their home planet to recruit some new space marines and found it overrun with genestealers. It is hinted at that the planets culture was basically a Native American one and the terminators went on a mad purging spree eventually wiping out the genestealer infestation but basically all or almost all died by the end. The other Deathwing painted their armor white in their honor and started wearing the feathers that the Deathwing terminators all have.

I am fairly sure this has all been retconned since but some of the old fluff is weird.

Way back in 1989, when Space Hulk and the first metal Terminators as we would recognise them were released, Dark Angels still wore black armour, and the entirety of their background was one panel at the bottom of a page in the Rogue Trader rulebook talking about the Feast of the Emperor's Ascension, which was vaguely Catholic-tinged, but no moreso than anyone else. Then came the Deathwing expansion for Space Hulk in 1990, and Bill King wrote the short story that runs through the rulebook for that. That's what introduced the Native American plains tribes theme to the Chapter; at that point, there was no such thing as Caliban, and this world was the recruiting world for the Dark Angels (the genestealer infestation is explicitly described as threatening the future of the Chapter if it takes over completely). The white armour - originally white, not bone - is ritual warpaint that tribes warriors would wear when undertaking a suicidal mission. It was only three or four years later when the 2nd edition Codex Angels of Death was released that the whole story of Lion el'Johnson, Luther and Caliban was introduced, and the Deathwing terminator models with the feathers had to be retconned (those miniatures were actually released at the tail end of 1st edition, a year or so before the Codex; the Deathwing banner represents the sacrifice of the Librarian Lucian / Two heads Talking who killed the genestealer Patriarch in single combat at the cost of his own life).

By now, with the redesign of the miniatures, the entirety of that old story has been excised. It still remains as a vestigial tale about how the Deathwing saved one of the Dark Angels recruiting worlds, but if it had been dropped, there's no longer any odd feathers that need explaining away, IIRC.

But there are still feathers on the current Deathwing models...

 Crimson wrote:

 Galas wrote:

But you can take that inspiration and create a good product, or you can take it and make a mockery of it. And in most cases, taking just the aesthetic because you happen to like it, is totally fine.
You have Warcraft for a clear example of a universe that normally just takes the aesthetic of certain cultures and not that much of the real world culture , like caribbean trols, or Inca Trolls, Viking Giants, Egiptian lion-centaurs, native american minotaurs. I suppose some people will find the use of an specific aesthetic offensive. But I believe as long as it is not use to mock that culture, is just the external recognition of how cool that thing looks.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

Whilst I agree with your overall point. Warcraft is a bad example. Their humans are very European, you cannot even give them properly black skin colour. Same with elves. However, more 'monstrous' races pilfer from non-european cultures, Caribbean trolls, native american minotaurs etc. And of course (like GW!) they had pygmies. They had a diminutive primitive gobliny species that spoke with mock African/Arabian sounding language named after real group from real world. And this was quite recently, unlike GW's pygmies that were decades ago.

Taking inspiration from real cultures is absolutely fine, but perhaps don't then transplant those cultures in to weird mosnster people while humans and very human-looking elves are pale Europeans. That is very othering.

But yeah, Black Panther is great example how to do this sort of thing correctly, and I really don't see any issue with African themed Space Marine chapter done in similar manner.

I can see your point, specially about Pigmeys... but I don't know, maybe is because I prefer the monsters to the boring humans, that I find those much more interesting. Is not like those races are protrayed as monsters devoid of any virtue. Taurens (The native american minotaurs for the profane) for example, are probably the best portrayed race of the setting, the most noble and virtuous of all of the races. Strong, honor-bound, but that prefer peace over war.
And about the elfs... well. You have the Blood Elves, that are basically arabs and that normally have a brownish-tanned skin (You can compare then with the more pale High Elves, that lack their arabic influences in clothes and architecture), or the Night Elves with their japanese aesthetic.

I agree that humans are all of european cultures, but you can gave them asiatic faces and black skin. Not jet-black african skin but black skin. I remember than in the movie, the two captains of Lothar where a black man and an asiatic man.

EDIT: I'll add that of course we can't ignore the... subyacent racist theme of european humans vs monsters of other cultures. But at the end of the day the world is built around Warcraft 1. I really miss a fantasy setting centered around an arabic world with european based monsters, specifically based around the crusader states. THAT would be original and cool.

Blood elves having some Arab influences makes it worse. You can't give them dark skin, they often have blonde hair. These euro elves stealing bits of non-european culture to add some 'exotic' flavour is pretty much the definition of cultural appropriation.

And the dark skin on humans is not dark at all.

trying to get back on topic

Well at least minis can be painted pretty much every colour we have plus more exotic ones.

Just do like with faction specific gear: release add-on sprues.
Would be cost effective and get what people want.
Release in those small blister packs and have as general or unit specific upgrades.
Anything like kilts and stuff could be a little harder.
Other companies have been selling add-on/upgrade bits for years, GW could do quite well making a few if they wished.
Eldar already has a bit of a mix, they could use more.
The Cadian AM/IG sprue is really old and could easily include some female parts or alternate gear.
It would still be handled better with a separate sprue dropped in with the rest.

 Mr Morden wrote:
trying to get back on topic

Well at least minis can be painted pretty much every colour we have plus more exotic ones.

yeah, this is definitely one reason why minis themed around various current-world cultures are less necessary. Just to make it an interesting exercise, I painted all my kairic acolytes with slightly different skin tones, and they look pretty cool on the table.

I think the easiest rule of thumb for making sure you don't get offensive with the cultural reference miniatures is "give them 2 shticks". Kairic Acolytes have a cool egyptian scheme, but they're also "magic cultist" themed. If they had the squiggly daggers and egyptian outfits and instead of the cultist masks they had turbans and beards...yeah I think you'd get some complaints there.

In Abrahamic tradition, Azrael and Samael are angels and Belial is a demon, sometimes the devil. Asmodeus is a demon, too.

Ezekiel is a prophet.

 Draco wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
John, it dosen't matter if you have a legitimate point to make or not. Your past behavior colors the perception of anything you post.

And your's doesn't? BCB's doesn't? SHUPPET's doesn't? Peregrine's doesn't?

Fact is, I would prefer GW not touch "cultural themed minis", ever. They do a gak job of it, and it's offensive as feth. So, no. In fact, put me in the camp that says "feth NO!"

That's not trolling. "NEVER" is a valid answer.

Could you give some examples? As non American I have troubles to see which minis are offensive as feth.

I know they steal for different cultures and twist those things (The Council of Nicaea, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Vostroyans).

If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.

It's one thing to reference history, another to stereotype and caricature. If GW wants to stereotype Vikings or Monks, fine, I get the fantasy reference and tropes. I'm not entirely sure how Scandanavians or actual monks look at it. But as a non-white person, no, I'm not going to support what is certain to be yet another an offensively racist caricature that's supposed to be "funny".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I can see your point, specially about Pigmeys... but I don't know, maybe is because I prefer the monsters to the boring humans, that I find those much more interesting. Is not like those races are protrayed as monsters devoid of any virtue. Taurens (The native american minotaurs for the profane) for example, are probably the best portrayed race of the setting, the most noble and virtuous of all of the races. Strong, honor-bound, but that prefer peace over war.

The "Noble Savage" is a racist trope that is not infrequently applied to Native Americans in particular.

I know the "Noble Savage" trope but how exactly it is racist, or at least, more racist than all other tropes related to the culture of the individual? You can have "noble savages" represented as barbaric gauls, or vikings, etc... just as common as to amerindian tribes.

Unles you understand racist as anything related to the ethnicity of the individual. For me, for something to be racist it needs to be derogatory and paint something or someone in a bad light just for his origin (Being this origin related to the ethnical background of the objetct in question)

 Galas wrote:
I know the "Noble Savage" trope but how exactly it is racist, or at least, more racist than all other tropes related to the culture of the individual? You can have "noble savages" represented as barbaric gauls, or vikings, etc... just as common as to amerindian tribes.

It stereotypes the race in a way that is false and lacks depth and dimension. I am not aware of the trope applied to Gauls or Vikings as such, but it is very common with Native Americans, from the very beginning.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I know the "Noble Savage" trope but how exactly it is racist, or at least, more racist than all other tropes related to the culture of the individual? You can have "noble savages" represented as barbaric gauls, or vikings, etc... just as common as to amerindian tribes.

It stereotypes the race in a way that is false and lacks depth and dimension. I am not aware of the trope applied to Gauls or Vikings as such, but it is very common with Native Americans, from the very beginning.

While not common in modern society given the distance from events, the noble savage was heavily applied to the Gauls in eras past. The statue of the Dying Gaul is a spectacular example.

But specifically the "Noble Savage" trope is more related to the culture than to the race, because it can apply to your typical fantasy or real world barbaric culture, without relation to his ethnic background.

Of course I know stereotypes are bad, and are a cheap and lazy way to write anything (Sadly, lazy writting is rampant in most mainstream products and Warhammer is no exception). But I believe theres stereotypes and stereotypes, not all of them are equally bad.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I know the "Noble Savage" trope but how exactly it is racist, or at least, more racist than all other tropes related to the culture of the individual? You can have "noble savages" represented as barbaric gauls, or vikings, etc... just as common as to amerindian tribes.

It stereotypes the race in a way that is false and lacks depth and dimension. I am not aware of the trope applied to Gauls or Vikings as such, but it is very common with Native Americans, from the very beginning.

While not common in modern society given the distance from events, the noble savage was heavily applied to the Gauls in eras past. The statue of the Dying Gaul is a spectacular example.

Afaik, Tacitus' Germania works in a similar way - probably in order to criticize in a lateral way his own citizen for their decadence (true or perceived).

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Grot-Spear-Chukka

I don't think those are racist, even they name is grot spear chukka.

Pygmies are unknown to me but Found this
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Pygmies_(Warhammer_Fantasy)

 Draco wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Grot-Spear-Chukka

I don't think those are racist, even they name is grot spear chukka.

Pygmies are unknown to me but Found this
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Pygmies_(Warhammer_Fantasy)

If you don't think "spear chucker" is racist, just ask a black stranger if what he thinks, and let us know how it goes.

The Pygmy article is on point. The Perry version was done around the time of the Bill King "Deathwatch" noble savages story.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Draco wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Grot-Spear-Chukka

I don't think those are racist, even they name is grot spear chukka.

Pygmies are unknown to me but Found this
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Pygmies_(Warhammer_Fantasy)

If you don't think "spear chucker" is racist, just ask a black stranger if what he thinks, and let us know how it goes.

The Pygmy article is on point. The Perry version was done around the time of the Bill King "Deathwatch" noble savages story.

Ok, I just did. He said "Dat gak hilarious".

Whilst GWs Pygmies indeed were embarassing racist caricature, that was decades ago. I am sure they're ashamed of ever making them.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Draco wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Grot-Spear-Chukka

I don't think those are racist, even they name is grot spear chukka.

Pygmies are unknown to me but Found this
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Pygmies_(Warhammer_Fantasy)

If you don't think "spear chucker" is racist, just ask a black stranger if what he thinks, and let us know how it goes.

The Pygmy article is on point. The Perry version was done around the time of the Bill King "Deathwatch" noble savages story.

Grots are not black. If you show grot spear chukka to someone black and say their name what they say? If other black is from USA and other is from Europe is there difference?

Those pygmy models were of their time.

While I don't believe in moral relativism, it's unrealistic to expect past times to retrospectively conform to modern ideas about race and so on.

That's why there are warnings at the beginning of episodes of Endeavour (young Inspector Morse) set in the 1960s.

What actually is this thread about? Haven't we got rather off the topic in discussing 30 year old designs? A lot of forum members weren't yet born when the pygmies were released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those pygmy models were of their time.

While I don't believe in moral relativism, it's unrealistic to expect past times to retrospectively conform to modern ideas about race and so on.

That's why there are warnings at the beginning of episodes of Endeavour (young Inspector Morse) set in the 1960s.

What actually is this thread about? Haven't we got rather off the topic in discussing 30 year old designs? A lot of forum members weren't yet born when the pygmies were released.

Agreed

JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Draco wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


If you scroll up a page or two, I linked to the Pygmy caricatures that the Perrys sculpted for GW, racist names and all. This also carries over to naming things, like the "Spear Chukka" (spear chucker is derogatory against blacks). Things that they've had in CJ with racist pejoratives painted on them. And so on. It's not an isolated incident in the past, it's a pattern that spans decades when they should have known better.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/Grot-Spear-Chukka

I don't think those are racist, even they name is grot spear chukka.

Pygmies are unknown to me but Found this
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Pygmies_(Warhammer_Fantasy)

If you don't think "spear chucker" is racist, just ask a black stranger if what he thinks, and let us know how it goes.

Hmmm I don't have another black stranger on hand at 7 am, but I instead asked my black wife if naming a unit "goblin spear chucka" is racist, she just laughed. For your sake I asked if she would find it offensive to name it just "spear chucka" and she said, well if it made any allusions to her race then maybe. Does it? Or are we being ridiculous?