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Edit: Wasteful post.

Addendum: people say dakka is a cesspool and all that. But none of the regular posters would have been surprised by flyrant spam last March. It's flabbergasting that GW guys never conceived of it until they were blindsided.

Martel732 wrote:
Rule of 3 is better than no rule of 3, but fixing miscosted units would be better. Keep raising price of Flyrant until you only see 2 or 3 used per list. Done.

And in that specific case, raise the price of the wings upgrade. Is anyone spamming foot tyrants? GW often underprices mobility options to the point they become effectively mandatory.

Except on space marines. Jump marines are shockingly ineffective. Even specialist jump marines.

Answer: marines aren't lobbing 24 shots off a T7 12W 4++ platform.

Martel732 wrote:
Except on space marines. Jump marines are shockingly ineffective. Even specialist jump marines.

But I was thinking about characters. Do you often run your Blood Angel captains without a jump pack?

Oh, yeah. It's always a jump capt or sometimes biker capt. While I still can on the biker. I've been using smash capt as more of a sheriff for half the game now. You have to thin out the screens before you can go smash now.

Martel732 wrote:
Addendum: people say dakka is a cesspool and all that. But none of the regular posters would have been surprised by flyrant spam last March. It's flabbergasting that GW guys never conceived of it until they were blindsided.

Not convinced by this. Plenty of people (including our friends at FLG) went "yeah its pretty good - but its not as if you'd want more than 2."

Admittedly I think this is because people underestimated the extent of the buff the Hive Tyrant received in the codex - and it took some time for the abstract theory to become practice.

The Capt pays too little for a Jumppack, but ASM pay too much.

The Capt pays too little for a Bike, but SM BIkers pay too much.

But at least you're not DE. Do you know how much their HQs have to pay for a mobility option?

I saw at least two pentaflyrant lists on here in the weeks before whatever tournament that was. Wasn't surprising to me in the least at the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
The Capt pays too little for a Jumppack, but ASM pay too much.

The Capt pays too little for a Bike, but SM BIkers pay too much.

But at least you're not DE. Do you know how much their HQs have to pay for a mobility option?

I've never seen it fielded. So I'm guessing a lot?

Amusingly, 13 pt ASM are still pretty bad. So free jump packs do little for them.

I've never seen a DE list that didn't field all of them.

Here are all the mobility options DE HQs have:

Still a way better codex than BA, though. Options don't equal victory. Undercosted units and options do.

Oh, certainly. That particular complaint isn't about DE being bad - they're clearly not right now. But even OP armies can have complaints.

I can't get over how when the indices die, BA lose jump priests. The buff guys that are supposed to be buffed the jump units? There are definitely inexplicable mobility holes.

DE characters should be able to get those little hoverboards.

Even Autarchs - they're supposed to be the only people who can take Aspect gear after leaving their Aspect Shrine - yet they can only take a couple aspects' gear.

This 'no models no rules' thing sucks. And, mixed with the "Why do you want a kit to build your model, when we can sell you a clampack to make our model" it's even worse.

I still can't believe they discontinued the SM Force Commander. I wish they made that kit for every faction.

Tyel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Addendum: people say dakka is a cesspool and all that. But none of the regular posters would have been surprised by flyrant spam last March. It's flabbergasting that GW guys never conceived of it until they were blindsided.

Not convinced by this. Plenty of people (including our friends at FLG) went "yeah its pretty good - but its not as if you'd want more than 2."

Admittedly I think this is because people underestimated the extent of the buff the Hive Tyrant received in the codex - and it took some time for the abstract theory to become practice.

You weren't convinced after they made it and its weapons cheaper, gave it a 4++, and the Hive Fleet rules were added?

A lot of the people here didn't miss this as they didn't do any underestimation. GW hasn't a clue sometimes.

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Rule of 3 is better than no rule of 3, but fixing miscosted units would be better. Keep raising price of Flyrant until you only see 2 or 3 used per list. Done.

And in that specific case, raise the price of the wings upgrade. Is anyone spamming foot tyrants? GW often underprices mobility options to the point they become effectively mandatory.

People say that like it's an easy thing. There's a break point where the model goes from totally spammable to where it ceases to be useful.

At what point level do you think Tyranid players would take only 3 or at most 4 flyrants?

I don't know. It will take empirical determination. It's not easy. Starcraft uses huge amounts of metadata to determine this. And even they had to redesign the swarm host like 4 times.

Ice_can wrote:
[Again your complaining about orders, order coverage doesn't prevent you running a full scion list at 2K your equating efficiency with unplayable which given how often guard players conplain that orders arn't automatic complaining you can use orders on your troops is hypocrisy. Either your troops are OK because you pay for orders with your HQ's or if order coverage for everyone is "how guard should work" the orders have to be baked into the points cost of these units in which case you can add 2ppm to all guard infantry straight off.

You aren't getting it. I am not complaining it's impossible, I'm complaining that I now have to jump through hoops I didn't used to have to jump through and have my army choices much more restricted because of overpowered units in some other codex.

A broad generalized rule across all factions to fix very specific issues are going to have unintended consequences. My problem with the rule of three is not that it doesn't work, (it does for the most part) but that it is LAZY and hamfisted.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

People say that like it's an easy thing. There's a break point where the model goes from totally spammable to where it ceases to be useful.

At what point level do you think Tyranid players would take only 3 or at most 4 flyrants?

I don't know as I know very little about tyranids. But such point cost will exist. There also exists a point cost for for wings where they aren't an autoupgrade, but something you have to consider. If you're cramming as many of one thing in the lists as the rules allow, then they're obviously too cheap.

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Rule of 3 is better than no rule of 3, but fixing miscosted units would be better. Keep raising price of Flyrant until you only see 2 or 3 used per list. Done.

And in that specific case, raise the price of the wings upgrade. Is anyone spamming foot tyrants? GW often underprices mobility options to the point they become effectively mandatory.

What if they had different rules. lets say nids got a footslogging buffbot with heavier bio weapons, and a more melee or shortrange centered flyerant. Balance both with points and slight differences. make the buffbot more tanky, higher T, higher W and better save. the fly dude gets much lower save and less T. GW could even give them different psychic powers, or different number of psychic powers. I don't get why GW often ends up with a single HQ slot armies. I get that they don't want to give rules to units that don't exist, but they could easily give separate rule sets for the same model sprue.

I don't know as I know very little about tyranids. But such point cost will exist. There also exists a point cost for for wings where they aren't an autoupgrade, but something you have to consider. If you're cramming as many of one thing in the lists as the rules allow, then they're obviously too cheap.

Or other HQs just suck. Take the GK codex, there is Draigo and there is the NDK GM. Everything else is mind blowing worse for almost no point difference. When the foot tyrant has nothing for it, and the fly tyrant for a few points more is much better. No one is going to take the foot tyrants. How many people take chaplains over librarians or cpts ?

Karol wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Rule of 3 is better than no rule of 3, but fixing miscosted units would be better. Keep raising price of Flyrant until you only see 2 or 3 used per list. Done.

And in that specific case, raise the price of the wings upgrade. Is anyone spamming foot tyrants? GW often underprices mobility options to the point they become effectively mandatory.

What if they had different rules. lets say nids got a footslogging buffbot with heavier bio weapons, and a more melee or shortrange centered flyerant. Balance both with points and slight differences. make the buffbot more tanky, higher T, higher W and better save. the fly dude gets much lower save and less T. GW could even give them different psychic powers, or different number of psychic powers. I don't get why GW often ends up with a single HQ slot armies. I get that they don't want to give rules to units that don't exist, but they could easily give separate rule sets for the same model sprue.

I don't know as I know very little about tyranids. But such point cost will exist. There also exists a point cost for for wings where they aren't an autoupgrade, but something you have to consider. If you're cramming as many of one thing in the lists as the rules allow, then they're obviously too cheap.

Or other HQs just suck. Take the GK codex, there is Draigo and there is the NDK GM. Everything else is mind blowing worse for almost no point difference. When the foot tyrant has nothing for it, and the fly tyrant for a few points more is much better. No one is going to take the foot tyrants. How many people take chaplains over librarians or cpts ?

Chaplains will only ever get taken if they're a Special Character. Otherwise, if you had a reason to take large squads to give the LD bonus or decent melee to give the rerolls they MIGHT be used.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Addendum: people say dakka is a cesspool and all that. But none of the regular posters would have been surprised by flyrant spam last March. It's flabbergasting that GW guys never conceived of it until they were blindsided.

Not convinced by this. Plenty of people (including our friends at FLG) went "yeah its pretty good - but its not as if you'd want more than 2."

Admittedly I think this is because people underestimated the extent of the buff the Hive Tyrant received in the codex - and it took some time for the abstract theory to become practice.

You weren't convinced after they made it and its weapons cheaper, gave it a 4++, and the Hive Fleet rules were added?

A lot of the people here didn't miss this as they didn't do any underestimation. GW hasn't a clue sometimes.

You sure about that?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/746010.page#9731184

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Addendum: people say dakka is a cesspool and all that. But none of the regular posters would have been surprised by flyrant spam last March. It's flabbergasting that GW guys never conceived of it until they were blindsided.

Not convinced by this. Plenty of people (including our friends at FLG) went "yeah its pretty good - but its not as if you'd want more than 2."

Admittedly I think this is because people underestimated the extent of the buff the Hive Tyrant received in the codex - and it took some time for the abstract theory to become practice.

You weren't convinced after they made it and its weapons cheaper, gave it a 4++, and the Hive Fleet rules were added?

A lot of the people here didn't miss this as they didn't do any underestimation. GW hasn't a clue sometimes.

You sure about that?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/746010.page#9731184

I'm not sure what that link proves.

"A lot of the people here didn't miss this as they didn't do any underestimation."
Link shows that most people here did miss this.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Addendum: people say dakka is a cesspool and all that. But none of the regular posters would have been surprised by flyrant spam last March. It's flabbergasting that GW guys never conceived of it until they were blindsided.

Not convinced by this. Plenty of people (including our friends at FLG) went "yeah its pretty good - but its not as if you'd want more than 2."

Admittedly I think this is because people underestimated the extent of the buff the Hive Tyrant received in the codex - and it took some time for the abstract theory to become practice.

You weren't convinced after they made it and its weapons cheaper, gave it a 4++, and the Hive Fleet rules were added?

A lot of the people here didn't miss this as they didn't do any underestimation. GW hasn't a clue sometimes.

You sure about that?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/746010.page#9731184

I'm not sure what that link proves.

It proves that people are oblivious. RG won that poll with 0 players voting for shinning spears. More people voted for tactical marines than flying hive tyrants. LOL.

Bharring wrote:
"A lot of the people here didn't miss this as they didn't do any underestimation."
Link shows that most people here did miss this.

I'll admit the Lictors part feels strange, but if I recall correctly that poll only offered the choice to click one option.

So obviously you WOULD choose Roboute (who did need the price increase) and the Malefic Lord (though that's an issue with Smite itself).

Bharring wrote:
"A lot of the people here didn't miss this as they didn't do any underestimation."
Link shows that most people here did miss this.

The poll shows that people are dumb. Shinning spears got 0 votes on that poll. Tactical marines got 9 votes.

bananathug wrote:
If you didn't answer the alphabet bird himself you have given the wrong answer.

And no he isn't balanced now (they priced him off the table) but you can't really balance a model that can fight/kill an entire army.

Aetaos'Rau'Keres
Mal lords
pre-nerf lictors (I'm not so smart either...)
malenthropes
DakkaFlexes (180ish points for 24 s6 shots in a t7 12 wound 4++ package that doesn't BS degrade until 3 wounds with smite and deepstrike is crazy, a guy at my shop ran 8 of them last tournament...)
Eversor assassins
Reapers
Celestine
Magnus
girlyman
primaris psychers (cheap smite but any sniper unit kills them dead)


And those of you saying guilliman, yep he's so overpowered that you see him at all of the top tournament final tables now that other armies have their codexes.

And tac marines. Yep, Dakka Dakka gunna Dakka Dakka I guess.

That most posters on Dakka play in beer+pretzels metas and don't realize how the game is played/broken at "WAAC" levels vs people with cash to burn/massive collections.

Without the rule of 3 8th would be spam fest 9000. Remember how fun those assassin armies were to play against?

As bad as the rules are they have gotten better. The main reason I'm holding out hope for 9th edition. Hopefully GW takes its lumps with Beta 40k and releases real 40k for 9th.

Those Assassin lists were fixed once the Character targeting fix happened. The only issue is the whole LoS thing but that's a relatively easy fix.

bananathug wrote:

bananathug wrote:
If you didn't answer the alphabet bird himself you have given the wrong answer.

And no he isn't balanced now (they priced him off the table) but you can't really balance a model that can fight/kill an entire army.

Aetaos'Rau'Keres
Mal lords
pre-nerf lictors (I'm not so smart either...)
malenthropes
DakkaFlexes (180ish points for 24 s6 shots in a t7 12 wound 4++ package that doesn't BS degrade until 3 wounds with smite and deepstrike is crazy, a guy at my shop ran 8 of them last tournament...)
Eversor assassins
Reapers
Celestine
Magnus
girlyman
primaris psychers (cheap smite but any sniper unit kills them dead)


And those of you saying guilliman, yep he's so overpowered that you see him at all of the top tournament final tables now that other armies have their codexes.

And tac marines. Yep, Dakka Dakka gunna Dakka Dakka I guess.

That most posters on Dakka play in beer+pretzels metas and don't realize how the game is played/broken at "WAAC" levels vs people with cash to burn/massive collections.

Without the rule of 3 8th would be spam fest 9000. Remember how fun those assassin armies were to play against?

As bad as the rules are they have gotten better. The main reason I'm holding out hope for 9th edition. Hopefully GW takes its lumps with Beta 40k and releases real 40k for 9th.

You mean how it was spammfest 9000?

You mean, remember 6 Stormravens with all re-rolls?
Remember 200 Razorwing Flocks with 6+++?
Remember the 1st character change rules before Ro3 with 30+ DE characters?
Remember Commander/Drone Spam?
Flyrant Spam and Mawloc Spam?
Biovore Spam (36 of them lol)

Over all it is getting better, i just hope this CA removes many of the faqs and we have less books/papers to work with