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 Jidmah wrote:
I would just not put any characters with them. If someone decides to start shooting grots, let them. If they kill 5 gretchin and nother 5 explode to moral, you still have very good chances that he didn't make his points back. Then just shove the 10 gretchin you bought instead of the runther in their place

It's not the grots I'm worried about. It's the 15 lootas/tank bustas behind them. Runtherd/warboss there ensures the lootas/tank bustas live longer.

Thanks Jidmah

I like you analysis and basically agree about everything. I just wouldn't rate the warboss that low. It's still a 70-78 HQ that is as killy as they biker one in melee. And since our transports have a good rating I think he deserves better, of course the biker boss is the auto include but he can't have the same rating of killa kanz and mini meks.

Ghaz however is highly overrated. He costs like 3 warbosses, I play mostly goffs and never tempted to use him, not even once, as a couple of warbosses and a weirdboy are certainly more effective for the same points and also unlock CPs.

I'd rate the trukk quite high, same as a battlewagon. It does nothing in combat but's quite cheap for its cost and matches very well with shooty units.

Manz and deff dreads are excatly on the same level IMHO. I'm also not a fan of the banner nob for its price, which is definitely too high, but I've never been, even if it's basically mandatory with goffs

Overall 1st page is a very good work

Current list I'm planning for competive tournament in ~2.5 weeks. Maybe I'll get some more stuff painted(smasha guns in particular) but AT is taking away hobby time so maybe not. Index banned.

bad moon battallion:

big mek w/mega armour, KFF, kustom mega blasta
weirdboy(da jump)
30xgrots
11xgrots
10xgrots
runtherd w/squig hound
15xloota
10xtank busta

deathskull battallion:

mek w/SAG, warlord: kunning but brutal will be default go to unless somehow I figure deathskull one is better. This would be mostly on rarely open battlefield without much LOS blocking terrain to utilize
weirdboy(da jump)
3x10 gretchin

evil sun battallion:
trike(5+++)
weirdboy(not sure on spell. Fist of gork most likely candinate)
30xboyz(big choppa)
2x10 gretchin
3xdeff dread(2xklaw, saw, skorcha each) (skorcha due to WYSIWYG)
3xKMK(one drop or all separate? 20 drops means already hard to get that +1 so maybe freedom to deploy far away and more or less empty drops to draw opponents more important drops before dropping real stuff would be good)

Lootas/tank bustas will be main damage dealers. Boyz and deff dreads coming later to provide some h2h punch. Especially boyz I might even keep to turn 3 seeing boyz are softer target than ever. Trike used to either clear screen for deff dreads or counter charger once enemy comes close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
I'd rate the trukk quite high, same as a battlewagon. It does nothing in combat but's quite cheap for its cost and matches very well with shooty units.

What trukks gives to units except 1/6 lost easily and then have to have gretchin nearby anyway or all are dead? And prevent strategems. Ork shooty infantry gets their power from strategems. Without those they are seriously overpriced.

tneva82 wrote:


What trukks gives to units except 1/6 lost easily and then have to have gretchin nearby anyway or all are dead? And prevent strategems. Ork shooty infantry gets their power from strategems. Without those they are seriously overpriced.

Not really. Flash gitz need a trukk since badrukk's aura doesn't add that much and they usually need to get in range anyway; furthemore if they're freebooters they get the +1 to hit even if they are embarked.

In my experience also bustas benefit from a trukk, due to short range of their guns and also because you may have more than a unit. I usually take two, and only one can fire twice. In a brigade that isn't bad moons or even deathskullz they don't really want to disembark unless they need to throw all the bombs by using the stratagem. More dakka and wreckers are definitely good but don't make tankbustas amazing, they already are. 10 dudes plus 2 bomb squigs in a trukk that shoot against a vehicle worth their points even without the stratagems.

If index is allowed, and in the majority of metas it is, the MSU deathskull style with 4 S8 weapons (3 of them re-rollable) in the same trukk can be very powerful. 10-12 skarboyz in a trukk may work as well, but also a full unit of nobz if you have 3 Bonebreakas/BWs with rollas and two other trukks full of bustas, which is the core of my current list.

31.5"(you threaten up to 43.5" from your table edge...If enemy puts further than that...Well da jump is even faster than trukk) is not what I would call short range and then being in trukk halves the firepower...Or puts under half.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I would just not put any characters with them. If someone decides to start shooting grots, let them. If they kill 5 gretchin and nother 5 explode to moral, you still have very good chances that he didn't make his points back. Then just shove the 10 gretchin you bought instead of the runther in their place

It's not the grots I'm worried about. It's the 15 lootas/tank bustas behind them. Runtherd/warboss there ensures the lootas/tank bustas live longer.

Yeah, but aren't 2x 10 gretchin harder to kill than 10 gretchin and a runtherd? Additionally, why would anyone shoot the gretchin instead of the lootas?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing I find odd is the hate for Mad Dok Grotsnik. Have you people played him?
Before the codex hit, he was basically an auto-include in all my lists since he basically is a warboss (S5, T5, WS2+, A4) who trades two wounds for 5+++, painboy aura and the ability to heal stuff. His "drawback" is very easily controlled and and turned out to be "can charge after falling back or advancing" for me most of the time. I'm not sure about the wording in the index, but according to the codex he can operate on himself (of course he can! ) so he regenerates d3 wounds every turn as long as he is alive. Deff Skulls kulture providing re-rolls for his PK, a 6++ and objective secured makes him just as viable as a warboss in my book.

One thing I have been musing about is a Council of da Waaagh! supreme command detachment - Thrakka, Zagstrukk and a weirdboy/Badrukk for plug-in goffs or Grotsnik, SAG mek with sniper trait and weirdboy/Badrukk for plug-in Deff Skulls.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I would just not put any characters with them. If someone decides to start shooting grots, let them. If they kill 5 gretchin and nother 5 explode to moral, you still have very good chances that he didn't make his points back. Then just shove the 10 gretchin you bought instead of the runther in their place

It's not the grots I'm worried about. It's the 15 lootas/tank bustas behind them. Runtherd/warboss there ensures the lootas/tank bustas live longer.

Yeah, but aren't 2x 10 gretchin harder to kill than 10 gretchin and a runtherd? Additionally, why would anyone shoot the gretchin instead of the lootas?

Obviously if 20 grots is all you have runtherd is less of an issue. Whatabout 50? Lootas eat lots of fire so they take tons of shots. Tournament i lost the 39 i had in no time and this vs h2h armies or short range fire. Against good gunline 20 grots would not protect lootas. Also kept wishing i had something to keep morale up as enemies often cripled 2-3 squads and let morale finish off. 6 wounds and it's dead unit. And 30 strong mob suffers huge casualties

And as to why range and t4 from orks.

 Jidmah wrote:
Additionally, why would anyone shoot the gretchin instead of the lootas?

Because wounding a T2 gretchin is way easier than a T4 Ork? If I had like a bunch of Lasguns (or equivalent) I'd probably whittle down the Gretchin first and unleash some bigger guns on the now unshielded Lootas.

This is just an aesthetic issue, but the blue headings are completely unreadable on dakka's default theme (charcoal gray).

redder armour

The really nice thing about this, is that it forces your opponent to make decisions, and most likely enables the BW to always get the charge for the extra D6 attacks. Make sure you drift the battle wagon when you charge for maximum hilarity.

Note: Though you have to be within 12 inches to charge something, you can still use ramming speed to move more then 12 inches (drift the battlewagon behind the enemy force, then charge the boyz into the front.

Also if you want your opponent to cry a little, kill the banner bearer with a double KMB big mek on a bike (deathskulls with deathskulls warlord trait).

We are bouncing around on arguments here. Lootas tend to be in the backfield, and we are playing orks. The enemy running at you to get into your backfield with lasguns and bolters is going to be highly unlikely.

So most of the time, you need to protect your lootas from guns that have 24" range or more, or from units deep striking/flying into your backfield. Most of those will be able to reach both your lootas and your gretchin, considering that they need to be within 6" of each other.

If I wanted to kill lootas, I would start with shooting the lootas themselves with something like a heavy stubber to trigger the stratagem and then just shoot the gretchin which were the target of that stratagem until they are dead - unless I'm wounding lootas on 3+, then shooting them is just as efficient as shooting gretchin, with a 1 killing one loota instead of a grot. Once the target unit is gone, there is zero reason to shoot those other gretchin units hanging about instead of the now unprotected lootas.
So, either I wipe out those gretchin, or I'm simply not shooting lootas this turn.
Assuming I can kill 39 gretchin like tneva's opponent, I could also kill 30 gretchin and 5-6 lootas.

If your opponent shoots those 30 gretchin and tries to make them implode via moral, he needs to shoot at least 14 of them. He also is not killing those lootas this turn, because moral is after the fight phase. If you need those gretchin to stay in place no matter what, spend 2CP to have them stay there. If you don't... it's highly unlikely that the guns used to kill those 14 gretchin costs less than 90 points. If your opponent spends most of his anti-infantry shooting on dwindling down 3 units of gretchin, he is doing exactly what you want.

Last, there is the possibility that something will come to melee the lootas and wants the gretchin gone beforehand - once again, melee is after fighting, so even if the gretchin implode to moral, it's mission accomplished: lootas are safe.
If the gretchin don't survive shooting, which one would you rather have standing in front of your lootas - a runtherd or 10 more gretchin?

A runtherd can also be killed by snipers, blown up by psychic powers or assassinated by a unit with fly.

In the end - especially in the context of killing lootas - your opponent needs to go through all 30 gretchin anyways, the runtherd does nothing to prevent that from happening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
This is just an aesthetic issue, but the blue headings are completely unreadable on dakka's default theme (charcoal gray).

Replaced with Deff Skullz blue

Technically (correct me if I'm wrong), you don't have to take all the gretchin from one unit (if you have multiple units of gretchin around the lootas. Thus allowing you to distribute the dead gretchin to prevent excessive morale losses.

The errata'ed rules text says

‘Use this Stratagem after a <Clan> Infantry unit
from your army (excluding units comprised entirely of
Gretchin models) has been hit by a ranged weapon.
Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time
an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds that unit
if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <Clan>
Gretchin Infantry models within 6" of it, and the
Gretchin unit is closer to the attacking model than the
target unit. On a 2+ one model of your choice in that
Gretchin unit is slain and the attack sequence ends.’

I guess you can read it both ways... but in that case you shouldn't bring units of 30 gretchin at all.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To play devils advocate, the Squigbuggy, it seems to me, is a gap filler.
As it is versatile against different target types, it would seem that its meant to be used to cover any problem you are facing during a game.

Find yourself against heavy infantry you can't reach in time? Throw a biter. Against vehicles? Throw a bomb. Against light infantry? Throw a bile.

I think a lot of people are overlooking its range. It has 36" range, in an army that tends to be 18-24 range on average. You can threaten pretty much anything on the table on a mobile platform.
You also hit on a 4+ with its primary weapon, which can still proc DDD. It also has a smaller, less accurate version, which can either target another enemy type, or add damage against the first one.

And then you have the mine. Will you kill something with it? Probably not. Will you zone an area, stopping the enemy from going there? Probably yes.

So it does have some tactical function.
The main problem is its price. Most of the other buggies aren't in the triple digits.


Boyz are still good. They are the meat of the army, your bread and butter. A good army should have both gretchin and boyz.

Analyze any squigbuggy profile against any target versus the Rivet Cannon from the Kbb.

Tell me when you've found any target the squigbuggy works better against.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
Thanks for all the praise, but most of the ranking I have taken from the_scotsman's analysis, except for those where I heavily disagreed or felt like it didn't reflect what other people were reporting for those units.

I will improve it with the critiques in here so far, just making the stupid rainbow structure and shortening all the texts took me hours.

What I want to have in the first post is an analysis for each klan, taking into account the klan's relic, warlord trait and stratagem, not just the kulture. Below that should be the units which benefit most from running that klan (TOP 5 or something) and klan-specific unit constallations like the redder armour mek or the deffskulls rokkit trukk boyz.
I feel this has more value to players new to orks than "take Evil Sund or Deff Skulls, everything else sucks".

I agree with the can analysis. And I definitely understand that my analysis is too long for a non-spoilered post and also is only my own opinion. I agree with most of the adjustments so far.


I think almost any clan is workable with the right setup, it's awesome.

I guess you can read it both ways... but in that case you shouldn't bring units of 30 gretchin at all.

Aye, if we can distribute the grot shield to any gretchin unit within 6, then 3 units of 10 would work as well as 1 unit of 30, and get you more battallion taxes. (actually better, depending on the amount of incoming fire, plus if they wanted to kill the grots, they'd have to kill three separate units)

the_scotsman wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To play devils advocate, the Squigbuggy, it seems to me, is a gap filler.
As it is versatile against different target types, it would seem that its meant to be used to cover any problem you are facing during a game.

Find yourself against heavy infantry you can't reach in time? Throw a biter. Against vehicles? Throw a bomb. Against light infantry? Throw a bile.

I think a lot of people are overlooking its range. It has 36" range, in an army that tends to be 18-24 range on average. You can threaten pretty much anything on the table on a mobile platform.
You also hit on a 4+ with its primary weapon, which can still proc DDD. It also has a smaller, less accurate version, which can either target another enemy type, or add damage against the first one.

And then you have the mine. Will you kill something with it? Probably not. Will you zone an area, stopping the enemy from going there? Probably yes.

So it does have some tactical function.
The main problem is its price. Most of the other buggies aren't in the triple digits.


Boyz are still good. They are the meat of the army, your bread and butter. A good army should have both gretchin and boyz.

Analyze any squigbuggy profile against any target versus the Rivet Cannon from the Kbb.

Tell me when you've found any target the squigbuggy works better against.

Well, yes against a single target the rivet kannon does perform better.
But can it engage 2 targets at once, that are different types at 36" range?
Can it do better in melee? The KBB does get mortal wounds, but that's only on the charge and only if you roll a 4+.
Does it have an extra wound?
Can you buy a KBB without having to buy the Speed Freaks set, or hope that its available on ebay?

On paper, the buggy doesn't look great, but in a practical situation it might be useful. Its something that has to be tested.

One thing confuses me about the new buggy rules - for the KBB, Squigbuggy, and snazzwagon it says "each crew is armed with..."
Well, how many crew does each buggy have? Or by crew, do they mean collectively? As in, the entire crew is armed with a squig launcher, and I get to use that in addition to the heavy squiglauncher?
Does that mean I can't use the shotgun and the squiglauncher at the same time, as the crew are using both?

The language is odd, but I think they mean the entire crew not each crewmember

Edit: They all have the riding shotgun rule though, so they can fire all of its weapons at once.

PiñaColada wrote:
The language is odd, but I think they mean the entire crew not each crewmember

Edit: They all have the riding shotgun rule though, so they can fire all of its weapons at once.

Don't vehicles already shoot all of their weapons at once though?
I'm not sure it can use the squig launcher (which is a different weapon to the heavy squiglauncher) and the shotgun at once, as the crew have both of those, and the shotgun isn't a pistol.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
To play devils advocate, the Squigbuggy, it seems to me, is a gap filler.
As it is versatile against different target types, it would seem that its meant to be used to cover any problem you are facing during a game.

Find yourself against heavy infantry you can't reach in time? Throw a biter. Against vehicles? Throw a bomb. Against light infantry? Throw a bile.

I think a lot of people are overlooking its range. It has 36" range, in an army that tends to be 18-24 range on average. You can threaten pretty much anything on the table on a mobile platform.
You also hit on a 4+ with its primary weapon, which can still proc DDD. It also has a smaller, less accurate version, which can either target another enemy type, or add damage against the first one.

And then you have the mine. Will you kill something with it? Probably not. Will you zone an area, stopping the enemy from going there? Probably yes.

So it does have some tactical function.
The main problem is its price. Most of the other buggies aren't in the triple digits.


Boyz are still good. They are the meat of the army, your bread and butter. A good army should have both gretchin and boyz.

Analyze any squigbuggy profile against any target versus the Rivet Cannon from the Kbb.

Tell me when you've found any target the squigbuggy works better against.

Well, yes against a single target the rivet kannon does perform better.
But can it engage 2 targets at once, that are different types at 36" range?
Can it do better in melee? The KBB does get mortal wounds, but that's only on the charge and only if you roll a 4+.
Does it have an extra wound?
Can you buy a KBB without having to buy the Speed Freaks set, or hope that its available on ebay?

On paper, the buggy doesn't look great, but in a practical situation it might be useful. Its something that has to be tested.

One thing confuses me about the new buggy rules - for the KBB, Squigbuggy, and snazzwagon it says "each crew is armed with..."
Well, how many crew does each buggy have? Or by crew, do they mean collectively? As in, the entire crew is armed with a squig launcher, and I get to use that in addition to the heavy squiglauncher?
Does that mean I can't use the shotgun and the squiglauncher at the same time, as the crew are using both?

It says "the crew" in my book, indicating collectively.

The range or the squigbuggy is negligible when the weapons they are armed with are all assault and they have 10-12" movement. And yes, between the 8 flamer auto hits and the mortals the Kbb is solidly better at close range/melee.

And look, even if you can find some tiny instance where the squigbuggy has an edge...it costs what 35% more?

You're down to "you need to buy a box set to get this one until gw releases it as a kit" as an argument for the squigbuggy... I really do want it to be good. If it were 100 pts I would use it regardless. But its ridiculous price tag coupled with its lackluster weapons compared to almost any other buggy makes it solidly trash.

I'm just using it as a second Kbb. Nobody cares where I play.

Also, all the buggies cost more than 100pts?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
The language is odd, but I think they mean the entire crew not each crewmember

Edit: They all have the riding shotgun rule though, so they can fire all of its weapons at once.

Don't vehicles already shoot all of their weapons at once though?
I'm not sure it can use the squig launcher (which is a different weapon to the heavy squiglauncher) and the shotgun at once, as the crew have both of those, and the shotgun isn't a pistol.

It's just pistols that are special, where you'd either shoot pistols or everything else. This rule circumvents that and you can shoot everything (with normal restrictions in regards to advancing etc)

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
The language is odd, but I think they mean the entire crew not each crewmember

Edit: They all have the riding shotgun rule though, so they can fire all of its weapons at once.

Don't vehicles already shoot all of their weapons at once though?
I'm not sure it can use the squig launcher (which is a different weapon to the heavy squiglauncher) and the shotgun at once, as the crew have both of those, and the shotgun isn't a pistol.

A model may fire all weapons it's armed with or all pistols.

You know what I find really disappointing about the squigbuggy? There's nothing about it being a food wagon. Like, that was something GW mentioned when they revealed it, right? That it provided food?
You'd think that would be an actual rule. Like, it gives +1 to their leadership stat because Orks really like eating squigs or something.

Anyway, Devil's advocate for the Snazzwagon -

Well, for starters it is certainly inferior in close combat to the Squigbuggy and the KBB. That's a given.
Its main gun is actually better though against single wound T4 models, as both that and the river cannon are wounding on a 3+ anyway, it has the same armor mod but you get more shots.
There is a difference in range, but if the range is negligible due to their fast speed, then logically that wouldn't be that much of a factor.
It also has a big shoota, which adds a little more more anti-infantry firepower.
Really, if it weren't for the 4 burna exhausts then the snazzwagon would actually be better at killing infantry than the KBB. Keep in mind though that you do have to get close with the burna exhausts, and that could open the KBB up to a hard counter attack if you wiff your rolls.

Now, where the snazzwagon really shines is the -1 to hit mod against it, which can be combined with Billowing Exhaust Clouds to increase it to -2 to hit. The snazzwagon is eligible as the only requirement is that the unit must be SPEED FREAKS.

It seems to me that the distinction between the two is that you are meant to get stuck in with the KBB, whereas for the snazzwagon you are supposed to kite with it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know what I find really disappointing about the squigbuggy? There's nothing about it being a food wagon. Like, that was something GW mentioned when they revealed it, right? That it provided food?
You'd think that would be an actual rule. Like, it gives +1 to their leadership stat because Orks really like eating squigs or something.

Yes, that sucks.. For a while I thought it would have like an explosion rule, but way worse. "Blows" up on a 4+ and what really happens is all the squigs on it break out of their cages and run rampant.

tneva82 wrote:
Current list I'm planning for competive tournament in ~2.5 weeks. Maybe I'll get some more stuff painted(smasha guns in particular) but AT is taking away hobby time so maybe not. Index banned.

bad moon battallion:

big mek w/mega armour, KFF, kustom mega blasta
weirdboy(da jump)
30xgrots
11xgrots
10xgrots
runtherd w/squig hound
15xloota
10xtank busta

deathskull battallion:

mek w/SAG, warlord: kunning but brutal will be default go to unless somehow I figure deathskull one is better. This would be mostly on rarely open battlefield without much LOS blocking terrain to utilize
weirdboy(da jump)
3x10 gretchin

evil sun battallion:
trike(5+++)
weirdboy(not sure on spell. Fist of gork most likely candinate)
30xboyz(big choppa)
2x10 gretchin
3xdeff dread(2xklaw, saw, skorcha each) (skorcha due to WYSIWYG)
3xKMK(one drop or all separate? 20 drops means already hard to get that +1 so maybe freedom to deploy far away and more or less empty drops to draw opponents more important drops before dropping real stuff would be good)

Lootas/tank bustas will be main damage dealers. Boyz and deff dreads coming later to provide some h2h punch. Especially boyz I might even keep to turn 3 seeing boyz are softer target than ever. Trike used to either clear screen for deff dreads or counter charger once enemy comes close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
I'd rate the trukk quite high, same as a battlewagon. It does nothing in combat but's quite cheap for its cost and matches very well with shooty units.

What trukks gives to units except 1/6 lost easily and then have to have gretchin nearby anyway or all are dead? And prevent strategems. Ork shooty infantry gets their power from strategems. Without those they are seriously overpriced.

Bear in mind you can't use deffskulls grots to grot shield badmoons lootas.

 Jidmah wrote:

An Actual Englishman239272 17b89bd54c1da3ae84e8a3ebdb776c66.jpg wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I disagree about the Boomdakka Snazzwagon I would call it an average unit in the codex.

The native -1 to hit on top of T6, 8 wounds, and a 4+ save make it pretty survivable.

it has a big shoota hitting on 4's, 2d6 grenades ignoring cover on 5'6, a pistol hitting on 4's (nto much but might throw an extra wound on a random unit helping fail a morale) and a 9 shot str 5 ap-2 weapon

it also explodes on a 4+ which can be used to your advantage. charge in deep, make sure its in combat with a few things at least and then explode doing bonus mortal wounds, reroll the explode dice with cp if necessary.

it is not on the same level as the dragsta or scrap jet sure, but its way better than the squiggbuggy and all of the other stuff in the yellow field.

I agree with this analysis also.

The squigbuggy is not on the same level as the Snazzwagon.

Also I want to petition that the Stompa is put into a category all on its own. That thing does not deserve to be in the red category and I'd hate to think a casual player read this and purchased one not realising how truly useless they are.

We did the math in a previous thread and its shooting is slightly below that of the squig buggy and lacking the mine. It's also strictly worse than the KBB, so red is the right category in my book - from a strictly competitive point of view, you should not be getting snazzwagons.

Even if it's not as bad as the squig buggy, it's definitely not in the same league as Warbosses, Painboyz or Killa Kanz.

I see little point discussing in this 'tactics' thread if you're just gong to offhand dismiss other people's opinions because they are different to your own.

Snazzwagons, as stated above, have a far greater potential threat range when compared to KBBs and they explode on a 4+ which seems to be the majority of the reason you'd take he more expensive Burna bomber.

They also have a native -1 to hit so are more tanky at range.

I disagreed with you in the last discussion and I disagree with you here (along with Smiley it seems like).

If you don't like our opinions that's fine but basing it on a flawed damage per point against chaff ratio and claiming it as gospel is bogus.

A key for the ranking system would also be useful.

 Blackie wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


What trukks gives to units except 1/6 lost easily and then have to have gretchin nearby anyway or all are dead? And prevent strategems. Ork shooty infantry gets their power from strategems. Without those they are seriously overpriced.

Not really. Flash gitz need a trukk since badrukk's aura doesn't add that much and they usually need to get in range anyway; furthemore if they're freebooters they get the +1 to hit even if they are embarked.

You might be onto something here. With a mostly mek gunz based list (the unit freebooters will 100% want to start triggering their kultur), add a bunch of trucks parked 24 inches in front of the mek gun line and fill them with Flashgits. They would get their kultur procced even sitting inside open topped vehicles. That list with a bit of luck will snowball over any list bar a full Knights list, which you'd struggle to proc the kultur with.

 Jidmah wrote:
We are bouncing around on arguments here. Lootas tend to be in the backfield, and we are playing orks. The enemy running at you to get into your backfield with lasguns and bolters is going to be highly unlikely.

So most of the time, you need to protect your lootas from guns that have 24" range or more, or from units deep striking/flying into your backfield. Most of those will be able to reach both your lootas and your gretchin, considering that they need to be within 6" of each other.

If I wanted to kill lootas, I would start with shooting the lootas themselves with something like a heavy stubber to trigger the stratagem and then just shoot the gretchin which were the target of that stratagem until they are dead - unless I'm wounding lootas on 3+, then shooting them is just as efficient as shooting gretchin, with a 1 killing one loota instead of a grot. Once the target unit is gone, there is zero reason to shoot those other gretchin units hanging about instead of the now unprotected lootas.
So, either I wipe out those gretchin, or I'm simply not shooting lootas this turn.
Assuming I can kill 39 gretchin like tneva's opponent, I could also kill 30 gretchin and 5-6 lootas.

Funny that in practice I have run into opposite. a) 24" weapon ranges can be put to range(remember things MOVE generally...Which is why saying tank busta is short range is pretty odd seeing they have average range of 31.5"). In practice what I found out is that a) 24" weapon range weapons like bolters etc were reaching the gretchin b) sometimes not lootas c) even if enemy had range to loota they would still shoot gretchin instead. Maybe they kill few lootas less T1 but wounding on 2+ rather than 4+ or even better wounding on 3+ rather than 5+(which is bigger help than 2+ vs 4+) and more casualties means you need to cause less wounds in average to clear grots and lootas.

I even asked opponent why he was shooting grots rather than lootas and point was specifically T4 vs T2.

If your opponent shoots those 30 gretchin and tries to make them implode via moral, he needs to shoot at least 14 of them. He also is not killing those lootas this turn, because moral is after the fight phase. If you need those gretchin to stay in place no matter what, spend 2CP to have them stay there. If you don't... it's highly unlikely that the guns used to kill those 14 gretchin costs less than 90 points. If your opponent spends most of his anti-infantry shooting on dwindling down 3 units of gretchin, he is doing exactly what you want.

2CP is worth more than 35 pts. When you have 9 and lootas eats over 4 per turn...

Last, there is the possibility that something will come to melee the lootas and wants the gretchin gone beforehand - once again, melee is after fighting, so even if the gretchin implode to moral, it's mission accomplished: lootas are safe.
If the gretchin don't survive shooting, which one would you rather have standing in front of your lootas - a runtherd or 10 more gretchin?

Funny thing is game doesn't end in T1. I want grots to hang around in T2.

A runtherd can also be killed by snipers, blown up by psychic powers or assassinated by a unit with fly.

Unsurprisingly runtherd will be out of LOS. Haven't faced psychic powers that snipe runtherd out of LOS behind stuff. And of course FAQ means that the LOS blocking terrain+grots mean no charging T1 runtherd either.

In the end - especially in the context of killing lootas - your opponent needs to go through all 30 gretchin anyways, the runtherd does nothing to prevent that from happening.

Ensures he needs to spend more firepower to take down the 50 grots than without.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greggles wrote:
Technically (correct me if I'm wrong), you don't have to take all the gretchin from one unit (if you have multiple units of gretchin around the lootas. Thus allowing you to distribute the dead gretchin to prevent excessive morale losses.

At which point you lose grots from morale from multiple squads. There's reason why people shoot smartly multiple gretchin squads rather than concentrate on one unit. Same reason why when shooting at 2 units of 30 orks you prefer to kill 15 from both rather than 30 from one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
I guess you can read it both ways... but in that case you shouldn't bring units of 30 gretchin at all.

Apart from minimizing casualties when opponent shoots at grots, better board control, ability to cover 2 objectives while being within runtherd/warboss range and within 6" of lootas even with casualties etc etc etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greggles wrote:

I guess you can read it both ways... but in that case you shouldn't bring units of 30 gretchin at all.

Aye, if we can distribute the grot shield to any gretchin unit within 6, then 3 units of 10 would work as well as 1 unit of 30, and get you more battallion taxes. (actually better, depending on the amount of incoming fire, plus if they wanted to kill the grots, they'd have to kill three separate units)

And against 3 units of 10 opponent kills 6 from each and kills 30 for price of 18 ;-)

Shouldn't the Blitza Bommer be rated strictly higher than the burna bommer, now that they both have two bombs? Or am I missing something?

There are many of the ratings are am skeptical about, but we will all know more when we have played a dozen games or so. The new blue shade is a definite improvement

Sluggaloo wrote:
Bear in mind you can't use deffskulls grots to grot shield badmoons lootas.

Yep. Death skull grots will be used to sit over objectives, get in way of enemy by da jumping(if lootas/tank bustas don't need that) etc etc etc multipurpose. Grots are one of the orks best units and have other roles than just grot screen strategem. 51 grots is enough for that purpose(I hope. Haven't played yet against real competive gunline. Dark eldars I faced weren't that competive, nurgle/khorne not that much of a shootiness, ultramarines weren't most competive version either and the salamanders ditto weren't much of a gunline and short range fiirefight anyway. Plus with 400 pts dreadnought of 8" range doom not much points for gunlines anyway). No point loading up same battlefield corner with more.

The whole batt is there for 5 more CP as the lootas/tank bustas will eat over 4 CP in turn per average so 2 bat would be 13-4 for tellyporta=9 left. With grot screen even once I wouldn't be able to fully power up lootas 2 turn in average...

And deathskull mainly just 'cause I needed one more cheapish HQ and I have SAG mek in death skull colour scheme. And at least it's 2 more ob sec models to have around.

I just had a thought about the Squigbuggy - what if we are using the wrong metric?

We've been comparing it to the KBB, but what if they fulfil 2 completely different roles?

It could be that where the KBB is intended to be a front line assault unit, the buggy is intended to be a backline fire support unit.

There are several facts to support this -

1) Movespeed
The Squigbuggy has the lowest move of the new vehicles. Whilst this is bad for a front line unit, its fine for a back line unit, that's supposed to stay behind the main army.

2) Loadout
The buggy has the longest ranged weapons of all of the new vehicles. The KBB also has a 36" gun, but it only has 1 of them. This means that the buggy can just stay back and bombard the enemy from range. Its different ammo types means that it can finish off whatever the rest of the army failed to kill.
The saws are to engage the enemy in combat if they flank around and are about to get linebreaker or attack artillery.

3) Mines
The mines are tricky to use offensively, but as a defensive option, to stop the enemy from deepstriking in behind you or flanking? Much more useful

4) Fluff
As I said before, I was disappointed that there was no food rule. But what if that fluff was actually meant to be a hint on how to use it? You don't lead the charge with your supply vehicles, after all.