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One thing to remember with grot shields is that you can only protect one unit per turn. So you cannot protect both your lootaz and your stormboyz, for example.

Stormboyz are one of the units I feel are Good-very good but because of a duplicate role arent as optimal as before. Either due to the new kultures or buffs to units from index to codex. Including them in an army would either due to being a fluff choice (models or lore... of which stormboyz and zagstrukk have in spades) or because the player has the models available. In the case of stromboyz.. many people have the models in excess because they were so competitive in passed few years. Might not be the new hip trend but still a rock solid choice.

Yeah, this isn't really for a loota castellan army style. It's more about getting control of the board and killing screens before T2 so that you can tellyport the heavy hitters.

gungo wrote:
My well is simple; If they are placing anywhere competitively outside of Min squad slot filers.

The fact is stormboys don’t provide any meaningful benefit. Min evil sun squads that die to screens aren’t feared and larger 20 man expensive evil sun squads don’t have any real bite. They don’t have a role other then hey my guys move fast! Please dont shoot at them!

Even guardsman don’t have that issue as they are regularly used and the basis for an entire detachment that fills the role of a cheap screen that has a decent offensive bite. They are effective shooters and screens. They are like Gretchin and orks rolled into one unit and likely to go up in points because of this effectiveness and strong competitive use.

"this unit is bad unless it's used as a min sized slot filler"

"this other unit that is used as a min sized slot filler is good"

the loyal 32 is not taken because of their "offensive bite". They're the cheapest CP-generating detachment in the imperium bubble, and CPs are good. The usefulness they provide is sitting in front of your army and dying first.


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hortsmann wrote:
Yeah, this isn't really for a loota castellan army style. It's more about getting control of the board and killing screens before T2 so that you can tellyport the heavy hitters.

I do wish that the whole "I can't use this unit viably in my army where I'm investing all my points into the orkstellan loota bomb" thing would die down a little bit.

Yes, pretty much anything you slot into your list that isn't directly supporting your 425 points of CP-hoovering double shooting lootas is going to be performing suboptimally and on few CPs/strats and that will rule out many options.

That doesn't make those options bad.

I actually was supporting the usefullness of stormboyz, just stating that they fit in a different style army.

If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

PiñaColada wrote:
If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

Space wolves murderous hurricane. Cast value 5 18" range target whoever. Great for going after large mobs. Roll dice equal to the number of models and 6s are mortals.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

Space wolves murderous hurricane. Cast value 5 18" range target whoever. Great for going after large mobs. Roll dice equal to the number of models and 6s are mortals.

Yeah, that's a good one. But even on a 25 loota unit it's roughly 4 of them dead. It's bad for sure, but not the unit anywhere near depleted enough to be useless.

Something like 2 burna.bommas flying over a 25 man unit will on average kill 10 of them from mortal wounds and still have some shots that they might actually be able to pump into the unit as well since they are behind it and the opponent might not have shielded them from all angles. Then on the Loota players' turn they basically either have to ignore the burna-bommers because they'll explode or they have to run away/da jump the lootas (basically forcing them to use more dakka as well, although that's not a big drawback) For 264 points that might not be a bad deal

I'm not sure if that's a super viable tactic or anything, just trying to do some creative thinking in regards to what one might expect to face.

PiñaColada wrote:
If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

I dont have the new ork codex yet, but dont we have a power that rolls one dice per model and 6s are mortals? or something like that... When facing other orks mby this spell can be that threat.

the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:
My well is simple; If they are placing anywhere competitively outside of Min squad slot filers.

The fact is stormboys don’t provide any meaningful benefit. Min evil sun squads that die to screens aren’t feared and larger 20 man expensive evil sun squads don’t have any real bite. They don’t have a role other then hey my guys move fast! Please dont shoot at them!

Even guardsman don’t have that issue as they are regularly used and the basis for an entire detachment that fills the role of a cheap screen that has a decent offensive bite. They are effective shooters and screens. They are like Gretchin and orks rolled into one unit and likely to go up in points because of this effectiveness and strong competitive use.

"this unit is bad unless it's used as a min sized slot filler"

"this other unit that is used as a min sized slot filler is good"

the loyal 32 is not taken because of their "offensive bite". They're the cheapest CP-generating detachment in the imperium bubble, and CPs are good. The usefulness they provide is sitting in front of your army and dying first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hortsmann wrote:
Yeah, this isn't really for a loota castellan army style. It's more about getting control of the board and killing screens before T2 so that you can tellyport the heavy hitters.

I do wish that the whole "I can't use this unit viably in my army where I'm investing all my points into the orkstellan loota bomb" thing would die down a little bit.

Yes, pretty much anything you slot into your list that isn't directly supporting your 425 points of CP-hoovering double shooting lootas is going to be performing suboptimally and on few CPs/strats and that will rule out many options.

That doesn't make those options bad.

that’s not what I says at all. So please don’t put words in my mouth because you own a bunch of models you are trying to justify. Guardsmen with orders are both decent shooting and Better screen. They are widely considered underpriced claiming they are Min slot fillers just to justify your own stormboys preference is complete bull.

As I said play with your stormboys all you want. They don’t suck. They just arent competitive so stop getting your feelings hurt until we actually see them place somewhere in a competitive list. I’m still using kommandos and I don’t think they are amazing either and I’m not arguing with everyone who thinks kommandos are bad. Arguing with people who don’t agree with you tends to be your schtick. But regardless orks are already placing well and there isn’t a stormboy unit in sight.

Gitdakka wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

I dont have the new ork codex yet, but dont we have a power that rolls one dice per model and 6s are mortals? or something like that... When facing other orks mby this spell can be that threat.

Da Krunch. Charge 8. D6 per model in any unit within 18". 6s generate Mortal Wounds. Roll 2d6 at the end, and if 10+, do the same thing again.

Charge is a bit high, honestly, but it's got great value against Nidz and other Orkz, who love to use blobs of models. If you keep inside Waagh Energy Range, it'll have a WC 5, which is pretty doable. I used it in a game to take out over half a Gargoyle unit. Loses some of its value if you're using Warp'eadz, as a good double Smite will do roughly the same (2d3 or 2d6 with 2 10+s vs 5 MWs on average with Da Krunch on a 30 man unit), but you could always Da Krunch THEN Smite for maximum possible MWs.

Maybe I missed it but what's the feeling on the gargantuan squiggoth? I have a line on one at a decent price but I'll at least wait for after CA

You CANNOT double Smite with one character.

You can Smite twice with two separate characters, but not the same one twice.

Ah. Well, more in favor of a Da Krunch/Smite combo then.

vindicare0412 wrote:
Maybe I missed it but what's the feeling on the gargantuan squiggoth? I have a line on one at a decent price but I'll at least wait for after CA

Or the baby squiggoth for that matter.

To support the_scotsman, Nick Nanavati played with stormboyz jumping out of a battlewagon in his first streamed game with the codex. This guy doesn't muck around with low-tier garbage in his lists, it's very likely they fit the competitive bill in some fashion.

I also heard on chapter tactics podcast that Nick was talking about kommandos being a must-bring in armies. Potentially replacing his stormboyz? Unsure. Considering Steve Pampreen (winner of Renegade Open) thinks the kommandos in hist list are an integral part of his army and why he won his close games, they are probably also competitive.

two side notes:
1) Boyz are auto-includes, mark my words you will not see a winning list without a boy in it.
2) Considering the effectiveness of a unit without kultures and stratagems is not informative.... The Loota dataslate basically didn't change from index, and they went from joke-tier to being in the conversation for best unit in the game thanks to stratagems and kultures alone.

vindicare0412 wrote:
Maybe I missed it but what's the feeling on the gargantuan squiggoth? I have a line on one at a decent price but I'll at least wait for after CA

Garg squig is still great and also very hard to find these days because FW no longer has a working mold for it. If you can get one for a good price id urge you to snatch it up because it may be a long time befoe you can find another one for a decent price.

I personally like sotmrboyz and the only thing that I see as a real drawback with them is that the "Unstoppable green tide" strat is boyz only. Kommandos are probably a bit better, especially if you're using index still, but those stormboyz models are so nice!

I've tried a 30-man stormboyz unit with a big choppa in it, that's 275 points of boyz with a free deepstrike if you want. It's good, I'm not sure it's great. As MSU slot fillers both kommandos and stormboyz are pretty nice though.

That CP free deepstrike btw is nice. I'm leaning more and more away from tellyporting boyz as I find out I'm using CP's by bucketloads. Meanwhile walking boyz by feet is pretty much suicide

Also good for brigade filling in no-index period. With help of them for example following is possible:

ES brigade:

2 warboss w/power klaw
weirdboy
3x30 boyz w/klaw
3x10 grots
3x5 kommandos(butt naked. No burna due to no index)
3x5 stormboyz
3xsmasha gun

BM battallion

2xweirdboy
3x10 grots
15xloota
10xloota

So full loota star, bit thin on grot screens. 20 CP(so more than my usual tripple battallion), 90 boyz(1 or 2 to tellyport, 1 or 2 da jump or distraction carnifex rushing forward hoping enemy deals with them rather than loota star. Kommandos and stormboyz both aiming to come T2 or T3 as objectives require or deal with stragglers/crippled units.

 flandarz wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
If we're trying to think about some more unorthodox threats to the lootas then who are some of the most reliable bombers in the game? Because you can't grot shield bombs, right? So assuming Orks make it back into tournaments bombers might actually become more viable, plus dropping mortal wounds always gets some mileage out of games even if you don't face "Orkstellans".

There are certainly some psychic threats as well. Eldar has executioner as an example. Man I'm blanking hard right now, which factions have really good mortal wound spells that doesn't have to target the nearest enemy?

I dont have the new ork codex yet, but dont we have a power that rolls one dice per model and 6s are mortals? or something like that... When facing other orks mby this spell can be that threat.

Da Krunch. Charge 8. D6 per model in any unit within 18". 6s generate Mortal Wounds. Roll 2d6 at the end, and if 10+, do the same thing again.

Charge is a bit high, honestly, but it's got great value against Nidz and other Orkz, who love to use blobs of models. If you keep inside Waagh Energy Range, it'll have a WC 5, which is pretty doable. I used it in a game to take out over half a Gargoyle unit. Loses some of its value if you're using Warp'eadz, as a good double Smite will do roughly the same (2d3 or 2d6 with 2 10+s vs 5 MWs on average with Da Krunch on a 30 man unit), but you could always Da Krunch THEN Smite for maximum possible MWs.

I think Da Krunch is heavily undervalued. I have an identical power for my Death Guard psykers (Plague Wind) and it has become an invaluable tool for my army.
First of all, Da Krunch is not locked into targeting the closest unit. You can pick the best target every turn and have a green fist come down for them. I have found this to be an invaluable tool against not only units with 30+ models, but also units of 8-10 models which are hard to shift like guardsmen in cover, daemons(plague bearers, blood letters, horrors) or units focused on exploiting stratagems with as many models as possible, like DA Helblaster blobs, dark reapers or (just in!) lootas. Last but not least, chipping off the last wound of a warlord or support characters on a 6+ isn't the worst thing to do. The ability to "smite" whatever you want justifies the slightly lower damage.


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 hollow one wrote:
Considering the effectiveness of a unit without kultures and stratagems is not informative.... The Loota dataslate basically didn't change from index, and they went from joke-tier to being in the conversation for best unit in the game thanks to stratagems and kultures alone.

We are considering stratagems, just not the clan-specific ones. In general, the first post is aimed at people who don't actually know a lot about orks. Once you start getting to know orks (or even start attending tournaments), you will not be referencing the pretty rainbow table with obscure color ratings for army decisions, but follow the discussion of the thread, blogs or post army lists.

A brand new goff player will not get a lot of value out of buying 7 boxes of lootas, while a bad moons player will get his value back from the "ork castallan" - assuming he is using the stratagems correctly. That's why this combo belongs with the Bad Moons clan description, and not the units. I'll happily add a better description if you provide one

Mekboy Workshop next to a Stompa = 18 Deff Kannon Shots turn two.

I am really surprised our Stratagems didn't somehow turn the Stompa's 48-72 inch shooting up.

You could also use the Supa Gatler at 18 shots 3ish times, With more Dakka, and if you are lucky maybe you have a freeboota bubble or a Bad Moon kultur

 Jidmah wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hollow one wrote:
Considering the effectiveness of a unit without kultures and stratagems is not informative.... The Loota dataslate basically didn't change from index, and they went from joke-tier to being in the conversation for best unit in the game thanks to stratagems and kultures alone.

We are considering stratagems, just not the clan-specific ones. In general, the first post is aimed at people who don't actually know a lot about orks. Once you start getting to know orks (or even start attending tournaments), you will not be referencing the pretty rainbow table with obscure color ratings for army decisions, but follow the discussion of the thread, blogs or post army lists.

A brand new goff player will not get a lot of value out of buying 7 boxes of lootas, while a bad moons player will get his value back from the "ork castallan" - assuming he is using the stratagems correctly. That's why this combo belongs with the Bad Moons clan description, and not the units. I'll happily add a better description if you provide one

A Goff army can totally feature a Bad Moon batallion of lootas. Is the OP designed for a new player wanting to play a fluffy list in his local shop, or for competitve?

Also, what about competitive players looking for how they should play against orks? They'll look at the first few tier of units, won't see lootas in here and get obliterated on their next game because they have no clue about what they do.

I'm not saying they should be green, because I don't believe they fit in every type of potentially competitive list. But they should be somewhere in the top of the OP, maybe with their own color, for everyone to easily see what is possibly going to be the go-to ork competitive army.

Lootas are competitive with bad moons because they reroll 1's and get to shoot twice. With goffs they get only moar (like father more ) dakka stratagem which is explosive 5s. Not that competitive. Doable, but not competitive.



On a side note, can we talk about deployment? I feel that, right now more than ever, is fundamental how to deploy at best out units in order to be safe going 2nd or even planning it.
Like somebody said here that the best way to deploy Stormboyz is to wait last so you can decide if push for T1 charge or DS them I thought was a good advice because I usually deploy my DS units first in order to have some advantage on my opponent .
I know it might be hard to discuss but ms paint and prop pics usually helps

 Rismonite wrote:
Mekboy Workshop next to a Stompa = 18 Deff Kannon Shots turn two.

Stompa without=more shots turn 1+turn 2 combined. And frankly whether you make it to turn 2 is dubious. 2/3 outings he has been one shotted. One time he survived with 4 wounds so if orks go 2nd dead before shoots anyway...


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 Emicrania wrote:
Lootas are competitive with bad moons because they reroll 1's and get to shoot twice. With goffs they get only moar (like father more ) dakka stratagem which is explosive 5s. Not that competitive. Doable, but not competitive.

Yes. But then again that's same as nobody taking blood angel devastators(well I do as I'm silly and care more about fluff than pure competiveness). If you make ratings based on competiveness take up all factors in.

 Emicrania wrote:
Lootas are competitive with bad moons because they reroll 1's and get to shoot twice. With goffs they get only moar (like father more ) dakka stratagem which is explosive 5s. Not that competitive. Doable, but not competitive.

They can also benefit from the Freeboota +1 to hit as they match very good with Mek Gunz (also for the Loot It stratagem) and from the Deathskulls kultur as well since Wreckers is no Showing Off but still useful, and the re-rolls may help a little too.

hortsmann wrote:
A Goff army can totally feature a Bad Moon batallion of lootas. Is the OP designed for a new player wanting to play a fluffy list in his local shop, or for competitve?

An army featuring Bad Moons would not be a goff army.

Also, what about competitive players looking for how they should play against orks? They'll look at the first few tier of units, won't see lootas in here and get obliterated on their next game because they have no clue about what they do.

I call BS on that. No offense, but if you are using the first post for guidance on winning tournaments, you are not a competitive player. Same thing goes for getting obliterated because you didn't bring lootas.
The first and foremost job of the first post is to prevent an unknowing player from going out and buying Kanz or a Stompa for his army.

I'm not saying they should be green, because I don't believe they fit in every type of potentially competitive list. But they should be somewhere in the top of the OP, maybe with their own color, for everyone to easily see what is possibly going to be the go-to ork competitive army.

There is not yet a section for top tier competitive gaming besides the army lists, feel free to contribute. I also don't think that the meta is done shaking orks through yet, so it might be a bit early for that still.
Any time invested in a raindbow table to reflect competitive army building is, without question, a waste of time. There is more to placing well in tournaments than rating units with a single number between 1 and 5.


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tneva82 wrote:
Yes. But then again that's same as nobody taking blood angel devastators(well I do as I'm silly and care more about fluff than pure competiveness). If you make ratings based on competiveness take up all factors in.

People are taking Goff though. And Deff skulls. And Freebootas. And Evil Suns.

I also don't think ultramarine players think of jump pack captains as highly competitive choices, no matter what their thirsty red brethren do.

 Jidmah wrote:

I also don't think ultramarine players think of jump pack captains as highly competitive choices, no matter what their thirsty red brethren do.

Yes. That's why they take up detachment of blood angels for jump captains and detachment of ultramarines for shooty stuff. Basic stuff really. You don't see jump captains claimed as not competive because they require specific chapter though. It just means you use that chapter.

One thing to remember with grot shields is that you can only protect one unit per turn. So you cannot protect both your lootaz and your stormboyz, for example.

This. Grot shields are our rotate ion shields. Opponents wising up fast to this. Watch your opponents targeting priority to try to get you to play the grot shields early, then engage the target they actually wanted to kill. Grot shields also only work during the shooting phase, so don't stop psychic powers from ripping a unit to shreds.

 greggles wrote:

One thing to remember with grot shields is that you can only protect one unit per turn. So you cannot protect both your lootaz and your stormboyz, for example.

This. Grot shields are our rotate ion shields. Opponents wising up fast to this. Watch your opponents targeting priority to try to get you to play the grot shields early, then engage the target they actually wanted to kill. Grot shields also only work during the shooting phase, so don't stop psychic powers from ripping a unit to shreds.

Which is why deathstar approach like 25 lootas works. It's our equilavent of lone castellan. That weakness doesn't matter when you have only 1 unit that wants to use strategem anyway.

Strategems drive off armies toward deathstar style but guess that's what GW prefers.

tneva82 wrote:
Yes. But then again that's same as nobody taking blood angel devastators(well I do as I'm silly and care more about fluff than pure competiveness). If you make ratings based on competiveness take up all factors in.

People are taking Goff though. And Deff skulls. And Freebootas. And Evil Suns.

I also don't think ultramarine players think of jump pack captains as highly competitive choices, no matter what their thirsty red brethren do.