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crzylgs wrote:
Nob heavy could work, not super competitive but reckon you'd get some results. Trouble is they all need a delivery system, either Trukk, BW, Tellyporta or Da Jump. As soon as they lose their transport they are sitting ducks to a huge percentage of enemy shooting that you'll come across.

Could still work with a load of Mek Gunz / Lootas and Grot shields sitting in the back.

My plan is to mainly use trukks to get them to the targets. Then using klan rules for evil suns for them to give them the bonus to movement.

If you've got index access, would the kustom-shoota be worth the points over a slugga or extra choppa on nobs in quantity? (I can't remember if vanilla shootas are in the "pick 2" weapon list)

Easy answer is "no". The extra choppa is always superior to the kustom shoota, simply because it doesn't cost points.

crzylgs wrote:
Nob heavy could work, not super competitive but reckon you'd get some results. Trouble is they all need a delivery system, either Trukk, BW, Tellyporta or Da Jump. As soon as they lose their transport they are sitting ducks to a huge percentage of enemy shooting that you'll come across.

Could still work with a load of Mek Gunz / Lootas and Grot shields sitting in the back.

I think a setup of

9 man nob squad with Ammo Runt (I still love this guy for eating the first Lascannon that actually hits you)
10 man gretchin squad
battlewagon with deffrolla

repeat

would be absolutely brutal.

Nob squads scale as much as you like, so you just have to throw in a 9-man squad to get your painboyz, your warbosses and your waaagh banners squeezed in there.

If any of those transports pop, Loot It for 3+ Primaris Marine Nobz and you've got a grot shield rolling along with you.

Example List

Evil Sunz Battalion

Deffkilla Wartrike
Big Mek on bike with KFF and Klaw

3x Gretchins

3x Battlewagons with Deffrolla

3x units of 8 nobz (boss with killsaw, one nob with combi-rokkit and Choppa, 6 with dual choppa), 1 Ammo Runt

Evil Sunz Vanguard

Warboss (combi-shoota, Da Killa Klaw)

10x Meganobz, 1 klaw, 9 saws
Nob with Waagh Banner
Painboy

6x Smasha Gunz

Turn 1 your battlewagons have a threat range of approximately 26", slam them into chaff wherever possible alongside the Deffkilla Wartrike to try and clear away as much as you can. Your army is 7 drops, so unless you're playing versus knights you get that +1 to go first (and even then, most knight lists I see bring at least the loyal 32 which is 5 on its own..)

CP expenditure you start with 9, spend 2 on tellyporta, I'd say 1 on Ramming Speed turn 1 to guarantee one of your wagons into combat, then I'd reserve most for Grot Shields and Loot it.

 Jidmah wrote:
Easy answer is "no". The extra choppa is always superior to the kustom shoota, simply because it doesn't cost points.

Well, in all ways but one, you roll fewer dice with an additional choppa over kustom shootas. Rolling dice is fun, and orky! But yeah, the dual choppa nob is really points efficient

Kustom shoota on nobz is really only viable if you are someone like me that doesnt like mixing klans so your choppy only nobz are badmoonz anyway. 40 shots w/ bad moonz trait is nothing to scoff at.
Course allowing index options is a bigger issue than wrong klan being used.

Not optimal at all, better off just saving 20pts and going full melee if youre trying to maximize the unit performance.

Has anyone tried a MANZ bomb yet? 7 Manz, Nob with Waaagh Banner and 5 Kommandos in a Tellyporting Battlewagon. It's something I've wanted to try but not had a chance to yet.

If you teleport them in the wagon, they can't assault till turn 3.

You'll want those two turns to burn away bubble wrap.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Has anyone tried a MANZ bomb yet? 7 Manz, Nob with Waaagh Banner and 5 Kommandos in a Tellyporting Battlewagon. It's something I've wanted to try but not had a chance to yet.

I've done manz bomb but I just threw the manz into the tellyporta instead. Worked great every time I've tried it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You'll want those two turns to burn away bubble wrap.

I haven't needed them personally. I generally have a deffkilla+bikeboss+30-40 boyz into any screens turn 1.

Yeah, going to have to agree that MANZ bomb seems to work better being actually on the field rather than being in a transport. They might be vulnerable to shooting if they screw up the charge, but I would prefer they have a chance to get stuck in on T2 rather than wait T3 and have them potentially die from the transport blowing up and the battlewagon getting surrounded.

Thing is, no matter how many kustom shootas (or kombi-shootas) you buy, nobz will never be a decent shooting unit.
There is no reason to spend points to upgrade terrible shooting unit (sluggas/stikkbombs) to bad shooting. Better spend those points on something that's great.

If you want shooty nobz, you can get snazzguns and +1BS for 16 points

Playing victory points, 800 points in deepstrike till turn 3 is losing, the enemy has 3 turns to do all he wants.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, going to have to agree that MANZ bomb seems to work better being actually on the field rather than being in a transport. They might be vulnerable to shooting if they screw up the charge, but I would prefer they have a chance to get stuck in on T2 rather than wait T3 and have them potentially die from the transport blowing up and the battlewagon getting surrounded.

This. I see no advantage in putting those MANz in a battlewagon. The banner is just more damage, you can archive the same effect by just dropping 10 instead of 7, saving yourself more than 100 points in the process.

In that case, what is good in a deepstriking bonebreaka/battlewagon? Given the issue we just presented, do Nobz not fare any better or do they get by from the fact that they're cheaper? I'm thinking maaaybe tankbustas but now that the FAQ clarified that they aren't affected by stratagems, it might be a similar case to meganobz where its better to use them in a suicide strike capacity so you can do a one shot wonder and eliminate an enemy unit there and then rather than sit inside and shoot normally. Also, in the instance of the shooty unit, I would assume its not a bonebreaka since that defeats the purpose of its shooting capability (unless you're Blood Axes I guess).

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Has anyone tried a MANZ bomb yet? 7 Manz, Nob with Waaagh Banner and 5 Kommandos in a Tellyporting Battlewagon. It's something I've wanted to try but not had a chance to yet.

I used tellyporting meganobz 3 times. Just 10 basic manz. They wrecked knights, dark angel azrael bombs and necron stuff. They still die relatively quickly but are leagues above what they ised to be. I think 10 tellyporting manz are one of our best units atm.

In that case, what is good in a deepstriking bonebreaka/battlewagon?

Actually feel deep striking is best for slow things, like deff dreads, gorkanauts (unless you red armor it), and manz. You use the teleporter to get things close. Battlewagons can usually make up the distance pretty quickly without the teleporter. Save those points for ramming speed.

Having experimenting through the course of a few game, two deff dreads in the teleporter seems to be pretty effective. (Three is a bit much in terms of placing effectively, one usually ends up unable to be used).

 greggles wrote:

In that case, what is good in a deepstriking bonebreaka/battlewagon?

Actually feel deep striking is best for slow things, like deff dreads, gorkanauts (unless you red armor it), and manz. You use the teleporter to get things close. Battlewagons can usually make up the distance pretty quickly without the teleporter. Save those points for ramming speed.

Having experimenting through the course of a few game, two deff dreads in the teleporter seems to be pretty effective. (Three is a bit much in terms of placing effectively, one usually ends up unable to be used).

Yeah, I've noticed the spacing issue myself for deep striking 3 Deff Dreadz. I ended up equipping one with all CCW's for ramming speed and the other with at least one KMB (presuming Deff Skullz here) so that you can potentially crack a transport so that the CCW Dread can charge its contents seems like a good combo.

I got sooooo massacred by blood angels. Good teaching game on weak points of my list. Same list as last week so 3 battallions. Evil sunz, bad moons and death skulls. trike, 3 weirdboy, big mek w/MA&KFF(upcoming tournament is index banned), big mek w/SAG. 30xgrots, 11xgrots, 6x10 grots, 30xboyz, 3xKMK, 3xdeff dread, 15 lootas, 10 tank bustas. He had lietnaunt, mephisto, death company special character chaplain, that sanquinus wannabe, 10 death company, 10 sanquinary squad, lib dread, whole bunch of scouts, 2x5 devastators with lascannons and heavy bolters(1 in each), predator with triple flamer. Some banner guy that didn't play except for screwing deep strikes.

So basically I rolled 5 for first turn, he rolled 6 and I failed to seize. I got to force him to move pregame moves first so death company raced in. I then screwed up with kunning&brutal. I got to only move 1 unit so with lootas facing death company in face wasn't confident he couldn't use shooting, charging and pile in shenigans to tag lootas in combat. I considered moving right but I eyeballed that he could actually flat out charge with 3d6" strategem so I went left hoping to put distance in my way and grots in way. However I overestimated grot screen efficiency. 10 strong units are not that safe from assault protecting. Especially when facing 10 death company each with bolter...18 shots(2 weren't in rapid) SHOULD have vaporized grots and let lootas be charged. Luckily he botched shooting big time so only killed 6. 18 shots, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound. He got in...Due to fly change he needed to walk the long way so failed. He had charged into grots as well so could have tagged them but as I had da jump weirdboy nearby that the sanquinary guard wouldn't be able to attack(13" away so 3d6" charge strategem didn't help there though they vaporized my tank bustas) so tried rerolling but failed utterly.

Interesting rule question came up. As death company charged lootas I overwatched. First round 1 shot. Reroll, still 1. Killed death company. I then opted to use show off going for 2nd round. I rolled for shot count and opponent arqued that as with advance twice in same phase like tyranids can do it's the 1st count for phase. Well I didn't want to arque, sounded logical enough and hey long term this HELPS orks so...Anyway did mean this was less good but got hefty 6 wounds anyway but armour saved all. As it turns out opponent was right but wrong reason. As Bacon pointed out in YMDC rulebook says when attacking random modifiers are once per attack. Movement is different. However lootas have their own special rule...Sheesh. GW can't avoid having everything work differently? I wonder if lootas are only unit in game that shoots twice random number of shots and uses the first roll? Leman russ can shoot twice d6 shots but that's own roll for both shots...

Well I had got 2nd life there so weirdboy jumped them the hell out of there. With 10 sanquinary guard and 9 death company, mephiston and lemartes(?) staring very close not a safe sector to be! Trike got fist of gork and went in against mephiston after shooting had cleared both death company and all but 1 sanquinary guard. Go loota go! Reliable 2 for show off shots was nice here. Alas sanquinary guard passed morale. Trike went in against mephiston. 7 attacks. 6 hits, 6 wounds, 4 past armour, just 6 wounds...Drat. I forgot to use reroll and 5+++ saved 2 so mephiston safe. Drat.

Mephiston charged grots and tagged lootas while at it(damn wings+quickening+jump pack). I couldn't finish off 2+ save guy with 1 wound. My turn I didn't bring in reinforcements(mistake). I tried to smite the mephiston but 2 smites failed to cast. So I had to club him to death which at least worked. Did lose big mek w/MA when he tried to charge the lemartess(okay that might not have been smart move).

Turn 3 he was basically just putting up deep strike barriers and shot some lootas past grot screen. In my turn I tried to clear devastator squad for dreadnoughts which came but deep strike barriers meant I basically had to come on my own deployment zone and do 9" charge vs scouts and 11" vs lib dread. Did get to lib dread but why bother? I got one shotted. Boyz charged and killed 4/5 scouts. Next turn librarian dreadnought charged and killed another dreadnought and sanquinus wannabe charged with 5 scouts vs boyz slaughtering half of them losing 4 scouts in return. Next round mobbing up.

At this point we called it off. With secret orders scenario he had like 18 vp's and me 2. I had been struggling to get any decent cards and the scenario rule meant I needed to clear hand to get new ones...With 1 discard per turn...I even used the 1 cp discard 3 strategem twice to help give me SOMETHING I could score.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here's question on improving list. Need to hand out list by friday. Problem and big one this game was lack of ability to clear landing screens so here's ideas what I would do:

Drop big mek w/MA. Change death skull battallion into spearhead. Drop tank bustas, drop deathskull grots. Add in dakkajet w/6 supa shoota, 6 bikers with pk nob and change bad moon grots to be 30+30+16

Good news is. Bikers and dakkajet are good at clearing chaff like scouts. Bad news is 14 CP rather than 18. With 2 tellyportas that's 10 CP left :-/ Kinda thin for lootas. Could consider not tellyporting boyz at least though I have found da jumping lootas be so useful hard to pass on. Albeit that would give more screen clearing but then screens would be less of issue to begin with...

If I keep 3 battallions then pretty much only thing that can give room is tank bustas for either dakkajet or bikes and dakkajet dies easily if I go 2nd. Bikes I have been able to hide out of LOS which helps.

Opinions?

For nobz in a Gorkanaut tellyported, would you recommend bc or double Choppa? I was thinking bc because round 3 you should had already cleared most of the screens and what is usually left it is juicier char or high T models.

double choppa. You've got a gorkanaut to kill anything that a double choppa nob couldn't kill.

tneva82 wrote:
And here's question on improving list. Need to hand out list by friday. Problem and big one this game was lack of ability to clear landing screens so here's ideas what I would do:

Drop big mek w/MA. Change death skull battallion into spearhead. Drop tank bustas, drop deathskull grots. Add in dakkajet w/6 supa shoota, 6 bikers with pk nob and change bad moon grots to be 30+30+16

Good news is. Bikers and dakkajet are good at clearing chaff like scouts. Bad news is 14 CP rather than 18. With 2 tellyportas that's 10 CP left :-/ Kinda thin for lootas. Could consider not tellyporting boyz at least though I have found da jumping lootas be so useful hard to pass on. Albeit that would give more screen clearing but then screens would be less of issue to begin with...

If I keep 3 battallions then pretty much only thing that can give room is tank bustas for either dakkajet or bikes and dakkajet dies easily if I go 2nd. Bikes I have been able to hide out of LOS which helps.

Opinions?

I would go with 30 bad moons shoota boyz and jump them for screen clearing, saving the tellyporta CP. If you really need some screen gone, you can shoot twice with them rather than with the lootas (or if your lootas roll badly).
I would also check if you can re-arrange your army into a brigade rather than two battalions, that would up you to 16 CP. From your battle report, it sounds like evil suns is not doing a lot for you, so you could probably do with just bad moons and deff skulls.

Brigade is out. Can't make legal 3 fast attack nor elite from same clan

 koooaei wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Has anyone tried a MANZ bomb yet? 7 Manz, Nob with Waaagh Banner and 5 Kommandos in a Tellyporting Battlewagon. It's something I've wanted to try but not had a chance to yet.

I used tellyporting meganobz 3 times. Just 10 basic manz. They wrecked knights, dark angel azrael bombs and necron stuff. They still die relatively quickly but are leagues above what they ised to be. I think 10 tellyporting manz are one of our best units atm.

10 basic meganobz are very effective if tellyported. It's basically like 3 close combat deff dreads but with a little shooting and 10 bodies instead of 3. I've also tried smaller squads of 5-7 meganobz also delivered by the stratagem and they do work as well.

I prefer tellyporting them but I could see a point in giving them a transport: I've played a deathskulls brigade recently and I wanted 3 BWs/bonebreakas. If I had fielded the meganobz by tellyporta I wouldn't have the points to fill up the third transports. So I ended up with 5 meganobz in a bonebreakas saving me 2CP and a drop. With enough target saturation (I had trukks of bustas and boyz with rokkits+KMB meks and 2 BWs with boyz and characters) they're not a priority and can also work this way. Of course I could have tellyported the whole bonebreakas but I wanted more target saturation in turn 1 and things worked good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crzylgs wrote:
Nob heavy could work, not super competitive but reckon you'd get some results. Trouble is they all need a delivery system, either Trukk, BW, Tellyporta or Da Jump. As soon as they lose their transport they are sitting ducks to a huge percentage of enemy shooting that you'll come across.

Could still work with a load of Mek Gunz / Lootas and Grot shields sitting in the back.

A full squad of 10 nobz with 2 ammo runts to soak the first two heavy shots and half big choppas is 173 points, basically like 5 meganobz. Cheap enough to do their work after disembark/arrive by deep strike and die the subsequent turn.

tneva82 wrote:
And here's question on improving list. Need to hand out list by friday. Problem and big one this game was lack of ability to clear landing screens so here's ideas what I would do:

Drop big mek w/MA. Change death skull battallion into spearhead. Drop tank bustas, drop deathskull grots. Add in dakkajet w/6 supa shoota, 6 bikers with pk nob and change bad moon grots to be 30+30+16

Good news is. Bikers and dakkajet are good at clearing chaff like scouts. Bad news is 14 CP rather than 18. With 2 tellyportas that's 10 CP left :-/ Kinda thin for lootas. Could consider not tellyporting boyz at least though I have found da jumping lootas be so useful hard to pass on. Albeit that would give more screen clearing but then screens would be less of issue to begin with...

If I keep 3 battallions then pretty much only thing that can give room is tank bustas for either dakkajet or bikes and dakkajet dies easily if I go 2nd. Bikes I have been able to hide out of LOS which helps.

Opinions?

I agree with jid, 30 badmoon boyz will do wonders for this list. I'm not sold on the bikers or the KMK in your army. I would drop the KMK for the other 10 Lootas so youre up to 25, then squeeze as many boyz in as you can. Make the opponent come to you, shoot them off the board with pressure, and deepstrike the deff dreads for a power play once they are stretched. I think you need to decide on the fly each game if you are deep striking your boyz, so long as you have enough screen you'll almost always be jumping badmoon boyz turn 1 for the board control, lootas probably wont need it until they get assaulted.

Your list is borderline castle. Play it that way, don't be too hasty. You should have crushed that blood angels list, maybe deploy further back next time? If he fails his charges he loses that game, your job was to make sure grots are the only thing getting charged for 2 turns, games over at that point IMO.

Don't have 10 more badmoon lootas so that's out.

And lootas have often needed the da jump to ensure they can hide behind LOS blocking if I go 2nd(which is pretty often. Apart from the last tournament's 3 games last time I went first was in august...).

And I was pretty much crammed on the dz back. Those death companies moved 24+d6+2d6 charge(with rerolls). That's....LOT. There's pretty much no way to really stop that one apart from multiple lines(read 3) of grots. Oh and add come within 9" unit and then 3d6" charge for one of them. And 10 strong grot units are pretty bad for stopping assault as 10 bolters will clear unit pretty well.

And as it is clearly it wasn't just that assault. He didn't even need death company in the end as they died without killing at all so he didn't need to kill stuff with death company. The fact them rushing in boxed me into my dz giving scouts(which I struggled to even get LOS to. Incidentally getting 30 shoota boyz out of deep strike and into LOS would have been impossible. When I brought the 30 evil sun boyz they didn't HAVE LOS. Only way I could put them was behind building so good bye LOS. Albeit made overwatch non issue) and lone models here and there making deep striking impossible. Lone sanquinary guard here, mephiston there, lemartess there, that banner bearer over there...

Not putting evil sun boyz on reserve would have been helpful. Rush forward with them to box those scouts away from the center of board. Albeit would have risked death company vaporizing them instead first up.

Lootas definitely only roll for the number of shots once and that's the number of shots they get for the phase - it explicitly says so in their weapon profile.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Some new info on the Kult of speed detachment. That's a relic they tease on the deffkilla, so at least you have some options from the supa-cybork body

Edit: Becoming fearless is a decent buff I suppose but the relic is a side-grade from the cybork one IMO. Getting to move twice albeit forgoing advancing is real nice though. Moving bikes 32" and still being able to charge T1 sounds pretty tasty. The bike-throng rides again?

Edit 2: I guess it'd be a 30" move actually since it doubles your movement characteristic so the +2 would only apply once
Edit 3: No, the evil sunz trait adds to the movement characteristic so it would be 32" then. At least thats how I read that.

How's this for a ded 'ard HQ? Deffkilla Wartrike with the Kult of Speed relic, 'Ard as Nails warlord trait, and Snakebite kultur.

You get a T8 wartrike with 4+/5++/6+++.

 oomiestompa wrote:
How's this for a ded 'ard HQ? Deffkilla Wartrike with the Kult of Speed relic, 'Ard as Nails warlord trait, and Snakebite kultur.

You get a T8 wartrike with 4+/5++/6+++.

I think that might actually be less durable than the Bad Moonz WL trait+Supa-Cybork versus most weaponry, sadly.