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 Grimskul wrote:
In that case, what is good in a deepstriking bonebreaka/battlewagon? Given the issue we just presented, do Nobz not fare any better or do they get by from the fact that they're cheaper? I'm thinking maaaybe tankbustas but now that the FAQ clarified that they aren't affected by stratagems, it might be a similar case to meganobz where its better to use them in a suicide strike capacity so you can do a one shot wonder and eliminate an enemy unit there and then rather than sit inside and shoot normally. Also, in the instance of the shooty unit, I would assume its not a bonebreaka since that defeats the purpose of its shooting capability (unless you're Blood Axes I guess).

I really see no competitive reason to drop a bonebreaka out of the sky. If you want fighty, bring a gorkanaut or dreads. The bonebreak is closed, so passengers really don't matter - so if you want to deep strike one best just fill it with boyz so it's not a huge loss when they get surrounded. A battlewagon with deff rolla is 3" wide and ~7" long, so even if your opponent puts it in a perfect donut of models, you will still be able to deploy 5-6 25mm models. Any 32mm models (or larger) will die.

Battlewagons are open topped though, making shooty passengers great. Flash gits or tank bustas can be dropped wherever you need them. This might be the one reason to use rokkit pistols since you can continue shooting when you are locked in combat. I wouldn't want to charge something with the tellporting BW though. Probably best done with Freeboota kultur, drop the wagon within 24" of a unit that is likely to get a kill, or stick a bunch of weapons on the wagon (shootas, skikkbomb chukka, killkannon) to trigger it for yourself. The wagon will be within 24" of itself and them confer the bonus to its passengers.

It’s ok would have been great if he was toughness 9.
The problem w speed wagon is your heavily invest in mediocre buggies and bikes and all the index bikes options don’t have the speedfreak tag.

Looking forward to dreadmob. I don’t see how they can make Killa kans great though.

The blitz brigade might be decent if improving bonebreakers.

The stompa one is just going to be garbage.

Stompa one would have to be buy one get one/two free...

Stompa legit needs a 300pt price cut for its current statline to make sense. The fact it degrades 3 times HEAVILY dinks its potential compared to other things, making that huge wound pool pretty pointless.
Its barely stronger than a GargSquiggoth, which is shy of 500pts, for 900....really?

the_scotsman wrote:

 oomiestompa wrote:
How's this for a ded 'ard HQ? Deffkilla Wartrike with the Kult of Speed relic, 'Ard as Nails warlord trait, and Snakebite kultur.

You get a T8 wartrike with 4+/5++/6+++.

I think that might actually be less durable than the Bad Moonz WL trait+Supa-Cybork versus most weaponry, sadly.

I did a little math on it. You're right. The KoS version only gains an advantage against bolter fire. Versus basically everything else, the Bad Moon version is tankier.

PiñaColada wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

Some new info on the Kult of speed detachment. That's a relic they tease on the deffkilla, so at least you have some options from the supa-cybork body

Edit: Becoming fearless is a decent buff I suppose but the relic is a side-grade from the cybork one IMO. Getting to move twice albeit forgoing advancing is real nice though. Moving bikes 32" and still being able to charge T1 sounds pretty tasty. The bike-throng rides again?

Edit 2: I guess it'd be a 30" move actually since it doubles your movement characteristic so the +2 would only apply once
Edit 3: No, the evil sunz trait adds to the movement characteristic so it would be 32" then. At least thats how I read that.

Well, a 5++ is pretty damn good against the heavy hitting stuff you're most likely going to be targeted with. The +1T isn't much of a boost however (T7 only helps against S6 and S7 which aren't all that common). It can be combined with 'Ard as Nails for T8 (improves saves vs. S4 and S8 which are very common) but you lose a lot of punch/ tactical flexibility because you can no longer take Brutal but Kunnin' or Kunnin' but Brutal. Personally I'll probably take the Relic Trike as Evil Sunz with Brutal but Kunnin' because that +1D on the Snagga Claw is so Gorkdamn awesome.

 oomiestompa wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 oomiestompa wrote:
How's this for a ded 'ard HQ? Deffkilla Wartrike with the Kult of Speed relic, 'Ard as Nails warlord trait, and Snakebite kultur.

You get a T8 wartrike with 4+/5++/6+++.

I think that might actually be less durable than the Bad Moonz WL trait+Supa-Cybork versus most weaponry, sadly.

I did a little math on it. You're right. The KoS version only gains an advantage against bolter fire. Versus basically everything else, the Bad Moon version is tankier.

Remember this is just a detachment bonus you can theoretically have
Trike relic
Badmoon wl trust and super cybork
All in one detachment
Obviously wouldn’t put them all on a single trike but you can have 2 trikes or a trike with this relic and an index biker boss w badmoon wL trait and relic claw/relic choppa
Spread that durability around.

I'm having high hopes for the Dread Waagh. Our codex is great but left kans in the cold so my planned dread mob was shelved. If we get better dredds and (a man can hope) kans I can make my walker wall after all.

Shiny gubbins question... is it worth a command point to take super cybork on my defftrike warlord (have relic klaw on a Warboss on bike)
I have already spent a cp to make a warphead and orks are very cp thirsty.

BAN wrote:
Shiny gubbins question... is it worth a command point to take super cybork on my defftrike warlord (have relic klaw on a Warboss on bike)
I have already spent a cp to make a warphead and orks are very cp thirsty.

If you don't have at least 18 CP as Orks you're doing it wrong.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BAN wrote:
Shiny gubbins question... is it worth a command point to take super cybork on my defftrike warlord (have relic klaw on a Warboss on bike)
I have already spent a cp to make a warphead and orks are very cp thirsty.

If you don't have at least 18 CP as Orks you're doing it wrong.

oh ok so you HAVE to have 3 battalions or you're not competitive? Cmon, thats a pretty dumb statement. Your spending 214 points for 5 cp. Sure its good, but it is not the only competitive build.

You either take 3 battalions or a Brigade+Battalion. Orks NEED their stratagems to be competitive, period. Thus to be competitive you need to maximize your CP. You aren't going to fit 3 Brigades into the de facto standard 2000 points list, so you take 3 Battalions for 18 CP or a Brigade+Battalion for 20 CP.

The requirements for 3 battalions are so easy to meet that I don't see a reason not to take it. 1 warboss and 3 weirdboyz seem great in any list, and a KFF will fit in most of them, so that's already 5 out of the 6 HQ. 90 grots (assuming you don't want any boyz) only cost 270 points, and they are great for board control, screening, holding objectives and grot shields.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BAN wrote:
Shiny gubbins question... is it worth a command point to take super cybork on my defftrike warlord (have relic klaw on a Warboss on bike)
I have already spent a cp to make a warphead and orks are very cp thirsty.

If you don't have at least 18 CP as Orks you're doing it wrong.

It’s basically the only decent relic except this new one to take on him.
1 cp relic is a great deal since it’s free relic 3cp is not
I generally like the klaw and the choppa but the cybork on trike is good or the new trike relic even better.

I'm a fan of Da Lucky Stikk, but I understand not everyone likes Goffs like I do.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You either take 3 battalions or a Brigade+Battalion. Orks NEED their stratagems to be competitive, period. Thus to be competitive you need to maximize your CP. You aren't going to fit 3 Brigades into the de facto standard 2000 points list, so you take 3 Battalions for 18 CP or a Brigade+Battalion for 20 CP.

What data are you basing this on? To battalions plus one 1CP detachment are still plenty of CP for most things.

the_scotsman wrote:

addnid wrote:

Mek guns are also harder to kill than a grot, but that doesn't make them hard to kill. Having all six wounds condensed into a single T5 5+ body make them extremely susceptible to all sorts of guns that would only kill a single grot (dissies, plasma, rokkits, lascannons, etc.) while still being quite vulnerable to small arms fire. Obviously you'd never want to be shooting plasma at grots, but mek guns are a perfectly good target, doubly so for mid-range weapons.

And again, a handful of flankers can effectively remove multiple mek guns from the game, as those grot attacks aren't threatening anything, and even if the flankers never kill the guns, they're just going to keep re-charging the turn after the guns fall back, preventing them from ever firing again.

The worst is the riptide gatling, which can delete 2 mek gunz (9 hits, 6 wounds = 6*2 dmg = 2 mek gunz dead) out of KFF or cover, without even a single marker light being needed. Forsmasha gunz its ok they are so cheap. For other variants, well talk about a hard counter...
All the more reason to KFF all non-smasha mek gunz (when facing tau at least)

How does a single gun kill two separate units?

Ah I forgot the Grot Krew rule making the unit split into individual models upon being set on the table. My bad ! These things are really crazy good (though they could cost you dearly regarding Kill Points I guess)

 Jidmah wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You either take 3 battalions or a Brigade+Battalion. Orks NEED their stratagems to be competitive, period. Thus to be competitive you need to maximize your CP. You aren't going to fit 3 Brigades into the de facto standard 2000 points list, so you take 3 Battalions for 18 CP or a Brigade+Battalion for 20 CP.

What data are you basing this on? To battalions plus one 1CP detachment are still plenty of CP for most things.

I agree with you here, there is so much experimentation left to be done, for anyone to think they have solved anything re: meta orks is ridiculous and dishonest.

 flandarz wrote:
I'm a fan of Da Lucky Stikk, but I understand not everyone likes Goffs like I do.

I'm also a fan of Goffs and play a lot with their kultur but Da Lucky Stikk is quite bland IMHO. Da Killa Klaw is too powerful to avoid and allows the warboss to hit on 2s re-rolling wounds so Da Lucky Stikk isn't going to buff a lot of dudes, it works only for characters sadly and spamming melee characters is certainly a huge tax. Ghaz hits on 2s as well and with Fist of Gorks is going to wound everything on 2s as well. Even if I go with a second relic I'd take something else.

 Jidmah wrote:
I really see no competitive reason to drop a bonebreaka out of the sky. If you want fighty, bring a gorkanaut or dreads. The bonebreak is closed, so passengers really don't matter - so if you want to deep strike one best just fill it with boyz so it's not a huge loss when they get surrounded. A battlewagon with deff rolla is 3" wide and ~7" long, so even if your opponent puts it in a perfect donut of models, you will still be able to deploy 5-6 25mm models. Any 32mm models (or larger) will die.

Umm, you have to disembark before removing the destroyed model. So if a vehicle is completely surrounded and is destroyed you'll lose all the passengers no matter what base they're on. E: Could be that I am remembering this wrong or have missed a FAQ.

 Weazel wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I really see no competitive reason to drop a bonebreaka out of the sky. If you want fighty, bring a gorkanaut or dreads. The bonebreak is closed, so passengers really don't matter - so if you want to deep strike one best just fill it with boyz so it's not a huge loss when they get surrounded. A battlewagon with deff rolla is 3" wide and ~7" long, so even if your opponent puts it in a perfect donut of models, you will still be able to deploy 5-6 25mm models. Any 32mm models (or larger) will die.

Umm, you have to disembark before removing the destroyed model. So if a vehicle is completely surrounded and is destroyed you'll lose all the passengers no matter what base they're on. E: Could be that I am remembering this wrong or have missed a FAQ.

No you are right. Rulebook clearly states disembark is first. Which is why i hate deep striking transport with expensive choppy passengers.

Ah, no you are right. Mindest stuck in 5th edition once again.

I have yet to actually get a battlewagon surrounded and killed, either my opponent can't bring enough models close (for example, a single unit of ynnari shining spears, harlequins or a terminator squad can't surround it), or he fails to kill it as the vast majority of models wound it on sixes of fives (even dual talon princes) or I pull counter-attack for 2CP and roll half the surrounding models to death.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BAN wrote:
Shiny gubbins question... is it worth a command point to take super cybork on my defftrike warlord (have relic klaw on a Warboss on bike)
I have already spent a cp to make a warphead and orks are very cp thirsty.

If you don't have at least 18 CP as Orks you're doing it wrong.

It’s a 1750pt list with 2 battalions, sorry should have said


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [32 PL, 656pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Bad Moons

+ HQ +

Big Mek (Index) [5 PL, 79pts]: Choppa, Grot Oiler, Kustom Force Field

Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts]: 3. Da Jump, 4. Fists of Gork, Warphead (1 CP)

+ Troops +

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

+ Heavy Support +

Lootas [13 PL, 255pts]: 15x Loota

Lootas [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Loota

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [55 PL, 1094pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz

Extra Gubbins (1/3 CP): 1 Extra Shiny Gubbins (1 CP)

+ HQ +

Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, 120pts]: Butal but Kunnin, Snagga Klaw, Super Cybork Body, Warlord

Warboss on Warbike (index) [5 PL, 101pts]: Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw

+ Troops +

Boyz [11 PL, 215pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin

+ Fast Attack +

Stormboyz [14 PL, 275pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. 29x Stormboy

Stormboyz [5 PL, 95pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
. 9x Stormboy

+ Heavy Support +

Mek Gunz [12 PL, 228pts]
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Traktor Kannon
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun
. Gun: Smasha Gun

++ Total: [87 PL, 1750pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

With only 13 CP and the lootas, I'd say you can't afford extra relics. The lootas will take 1 to mob up, and then 3-6 / turn. You also probably want to use stuff like "get stuck in", "ork is never beaten", "force field projekta" or "unstoppable green tide". So CP are, in my opinion, worth more than a relic in your list.

Played the first leg of a little mini-tournament yesterday. This was at 500 points, that later escalates to 750 and then 1k.

My army list was:

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Orks) [25 PL, 498pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Evil Sunz

+ HQ +

Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, 120pts]: Butal but Kunnin, Super Cybork Body, Warlord

+ Fast Attack +

Kustom Boosta Blastas [5 PL, 100pts]: Kustom Boosta Blastas

Shokkjump Dragstas [6 PL, 120pts]
. Shokkjump Dragstas: Rokkit Launcha

Warbikers [4 PL, 84pts]
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Killsaw, Stikkbombs
. 2x Warbiker: 2x Stikkbombs

Warbikers [4 PL, 74pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa, Stikkbombs
. 2x Warbiker: 2x Stikkbombs

++ Total: [25 PL, 498pts] ++

I played 2 games, against Dark Eldar & Dark Angels. Won both by tabling, man people were not ready for the speed that came at them. I could T1 charge basically with whatever I wanted to so the amount of damage dealt T1 was nigh impossible for the opponents to come back from. Now, I don't think the list scales that well when going up in points but I really did like the fact that a fluffy list played as it should felt powerful.

Obviously being CP destitute sucked and no obsec or going up ruins. We played (randomized) on a forest table with only a few ruin pieces so that helped me.

 hollow one wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You either take 3 battalions or a Brigade+Battalion. Orks NEED their stratagems to be competitive, period. Thus to be competitive you need to maximize your CP. You aren't going to fit 3 Brigades into the de facto standard 2000 points list, so you take 3 Battalions for 18 CP or a Brigade+Battalion for 20 CP.

What data are you basing this on? To battalions plus one 1CP detachment are still plenty of CP for most things.

I agree with you here, there is so much experimentation left to be done, for anyone to think they have solved anything re: meta orks is ridiculous and dishonest.

I disagree about it being too soon. Realistically nothing changed in the Codex from the Index as far as units are concerned. Basically we just got some fresh paint (Klan Kultures) and gimmicks (Stratagems). So if a unit was trash before hand (Lootas) they will continue to be trash unless they are heavily buffed by either Kulture or Strats. In the case of the lootas...well they didn't get a big boost from Kulture so they rely on strats to hold them up. So with that in mind you then look at what is the best strats to use on them and you quickly realize that for them to be optimal, they are going to be spending at least 3 CP a turn on them, not including Mob up or other buffs you can give them.

So if you aren't taking 18CP or more you are going to be running out of CP by the end of turn 2.

But, that all depends on whether or not your are playing a competitive game or a fun game. If its a fun game it might be better to just smash CP into one or two units and run rampant for a turn or two.

For me, my area is very competitive with a lot of net lists and a lot of power gaming, I have been bringing almost exclusively Speed Freakz in an Evil Sunz army and relying on massive turn 2 Deep striking teamed with bum rushing fast units turn 1 to win games. It is rather satisfying to watch people realize that 24 inches wasn't far enough back from my Warbikerz And on turn 2 watching them get even more surprised when half my army appears within 8' charge range

SemperMortis wrote:

 hollow one wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You either take 3 battalions or a Brigade+Battalion. Orks NEED their stratagems to be competitive, period. Thus to be competitive you need to maximize your CP. You aren't going to fit 3 Brigades into the de facto standard 2000 points list, so you take 3 Battalions for 18 CP or a Brigade+Battalion for 20 CP.

What data are you basing this on? To battalions plus one 1CP detachment are still plenty of CP for most things.

I agree with you here, there is so much experimentation left to be done, for anyone to think they have solved anything re: meta orks is ridiculous and dishonest.

I disagree about it being too soon. Realistically nothing changed in the Codex from the Index as far as units are concerned. Basically we just got some fresh paint (Klan Kultures) and gimmicks (Stratagems). So if a unit was trash before hand (Lootas) they will continue to be trash unless they are heavily buffed by either Kulture or Strats. In the case of the lootas...well they didn't get a big boost from Kulture so they rely on strats to hold them up.

I think this is true for all the codexes not just the orks one. Take the drukhari book: there aren't many changes in the units' profiles from the index but the army went from trash tier to top tier. This is ONLY due to points reductions, chapters bonuses, relics and stratagems, nothing else. If you play drukhari without their chapter bonuses, strategems and relics they suck as hell, more than orks and yet a lot of competitive players freak out about them demanding huge (undeserved) nerfs for that army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
So with that in mind you then look at what is the best strats to use on them and you quickly realize that for them to be optimal, they are going to be spending at least 3 CP a turn on them, not including Mob up or other buffs you can give them.

So if you aren't taking 18CP or more you are going to be running out of CP by the end of turn 2.

To be optimal you should invest 5-6 CPs per turn on lootas. Mob Up, More Dakka, Showing Off and probably a re-roll on the number of shots since on 2 rolls you may easily get a 1 or 2 on that D3. Grot Shields in the opponent turn. So usually 12-13 CPs for two turns of shooting but it's not an issue since very competitive games are usually over at the at top of turn 2 or 3 at most.

In a more relaxed meta, but still semi-competitive at least, 15 lootas with just Showing Off and Grot Shields are already good enough to see many tables for an average of 7-8 CPs in the first two rounds of shooting.

You'll probably want to Tellyport two or three units (4-6 CP)
You'll probably want a Warphead or two (1-2 CP)
You'll probably want an Extra Shiny Gubbinz (1CP)

Turn one you'll likely want to mob up some Lootas (1CP)
You'll likely want to use Moar Dakka and Showin Off! (4CP)
If you didn't go first you'll want Prepared Positions (2 CP) and Grot Shields (1 CP)

So that's 14-17 CP. That's not using wreckerz turn one, that's not using "Get stuck in Ladz", "Orkz is neva defeated", or "Endless Green Tide". It is entirely possible to blow through 18 CP by the end of turn one and not really feel like you wasted a single point.

 Blackie wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I'm a fan of Da Lucky Stikk, but I understand not everyone likes Goffs like I do.

I'm also a fan of Goffs and play a lot with their kultur but Da Lucky Stikk is quite bland IMHO. Da Killa Klaw is too powerful to avoid and allows the warboss to hit on 2s re-rolling wounds so Da Lucky Stikk isn't going to buff a lot of dudes, it works only for characters sadly and spamming melee characters is certainly a huge tax. Ghaz hits on 2s as well and with Fist of Gorks is going to wound everything on 2s as well. Even if I go with a second relic I'd take something else.

Damn. You're right. I thought it was a Banner Nob aura, that snagged everyone. Lame.

Even so, the difference between a Warboss with a Lucky Stikk and a Warboss with a Killa Klaw is this: Lucky Stikk Boss rerolls 1s (dude is hitting in 2s with his Power Klaw because of Stikk Aura) gives other Characters within 6" a +1 to hit, and deals a d3 damage, instead of a flat 3. Both of them reroll wounding, so, in the end, the only real benefit you're getting from the Klaw instead of the Stikk is the flat damage.

 Rismonite wrote:
You'll probably want to Tellyport two or three units (4-6 CP)
You'll probably want a Warphead or two (1-2 CP)
You'll probably want an Extra Shiny Gubbinz (1CP)

Turn one you'll likely want to mob up some Lootas (1CP)
You'll likely want to use Moar Dakka and Showin Off! (4CP)
If you didn't go first you'll want Prepared Positions (2 CP) and Grot Shields (1 CP)

So that's 14-17 CP. That's not using wreckerz turn one, that's not using "Get stuck in Ladz", "Orkz is neva defeated", or "Endless Green Tide". It is entirely possible to blow through 18 CP by the end of turn one and not really feel like you wasted a single point.

Nah, you chose one tactic or another, which determines what stratagems do you need and in what number. The lootas combo works on its own, you just need to field a lot of boyz, gretchins and characters to give them target saturation. Maybe just invest 2CPs for tellyporta, and all the other CPs are ok on the lootas.

Prepared positions is completely useless in a green tide, which is the most effective way to field those 25 lootas. No extra relics really required. No need of the warphead either since three battallions means basically 3 weirdboyz and only one power (da jump) is really recommended for that type of list. Wreckers also useless, if you shoot with tons of buffed lootas you already got all the shooting you need. Maybe just the endless green tide could be helpful but most of the games are over after 2 turns of shooting of those super buffed lootas. It's not easy to deal with 90 evil sunz boyz under the KFF bubble if you also need to clear tons of gretchins in order to get the lootas. When I played it, full green tide with 3 battallions, I usually had 4-5 spared CPs for endless green tide or to invest in a third round of shooting. Endless green tide is also not easy to get since a mob can be just lowered in its number but not enough to invest 3 CPs or completely shot off the table.