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 deffrekka wrote:
I believe you can shot 3 times with a bad moons dread big mek. It's all about sequences. The bad moon trait happens when your unit fully resolves it's shooting attempt then you use the stratagem, kustom ammo allows you to flat out shoot twice will all guns.

It's Like getting multiple instances of +1 to hit, they stack? So why wouldn't kustom ammo and showing off? Ad mech can get 2 instances of +1 to hit from 2 different stratagems for kataphrons so they hit on a 2+.

Because it's not plus modifier but more like set number. If your ork boyz would be targeted by 2 strategems that say they hit on 4+ would they hit on 3+? Or 2 strategems saying 6 to hit is 2 hits. That's still 2 hits. Not 3 or 4

tneva82 wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
I believe you can shot 3 times with a bad moons dread big mek. It's all about sequences. The bad moon trait happens when your unit fully resolves it's shooting attempt then you use the stratagem, kustom ammo allows you to flat out shoot twice will all guns.

It's Like getting multiple instances of +1 to hit, they stack? So why wouldn't kustom ammo and showing off? Ad mech can get 2 instances of +1 to hit from 2 different stratagems for kataphrons so they hit on a 2+.

Because it's not plus modifier but more like set number. If your ork boyz would be targeted by 2 strategems that say they hit on 4+ would they hit on 3+? Or 2 strategems saying 6 to hit is 2 hits. That's still 2 hits. Not 3 or 4

I agree. both stratagems specifically say "twice" not "again." Two is the number of the shooting, the number of the shooting shall be two. One is only acceptable should you then continue to two, three is right out.

Well one is shoot twice and the other is shoot a second time.

How does a soul bursted ynarri fire prism work when it fires it turret and has moved less than half it's movement?

If that fire prism kills it's target with its gun and gains strength from death, it then fires again twice wont it?

It's still a matter of sequence isn't it? One is done immediately, the other is done when the attack has been resolved?

(IGNORE THE FIRE PRISM, VEHICLES CAT BENEFIT FROM STRENGTH FROM DEATH, BUT IF A UNIT THAT SHOTS TWICE CAN AND THEN IS ALLOWED TO FIRE AGAIN ONCE IT HAS KILLED A TARGET WOULD THEN BE ALLOWED TO DO IT AGAIN AS IT ISNT DONE SIMULTANEOUSLY)

That's two separate instances of being allowed to fire again.

Neither one takes place at the same time during that shooting phase. If both stratagems both said the unit may fire twice I would agree. But one has a requirement that it must have already resolved it's shooting attempt to then be triggered.

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because the "Grots" rule in the codex only applies to "Ork Stratagems".

Stratagems from the Vigilus book are not "Ork stratagems" afaik.

Nope.

That subheader has zero rules meaning. By your logic I can use "Showin' Off" on my Mek Gunz now because it's a "Bad Moons Stratagem" and not an "Orks Stratagem". There is a reason why the errata'd Agents of Vect to have the "You must have a Kabal of the Black Heart Model" rider, because the subheading has no rules meaning.

Baring any definition to the contrary, we default to what the English meaning of an "Ork Stratagem" is, which of course is ambiguous (thanks GW) but I don't see it as unreasonable to define it as "A stratagem found in the Ork Codex." as opposed to "any stratagem that can be used by Orks", because the latter would include BRB stratagems too.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because the "Grots" rule in the codex only applies to "Ork Stratagems".

Stratagems from the Vigilus book are not "Ork stratagems" afaik.

Nope.

That subheader has zero rules meaning. By your logic I can use "Showin' Off" on my Mek Gunz now because it's a "Bad Moons Stratagem" and not an "Orks Stratagem". There is a reason why the errata'd Agents of Vect to have the "You must have a Kabal of the Black Heart Model" rider, because the subheading has no rules meaning.

Baring any definition to the contrary, we default to what the English meaning of an "Ork Stratagem" is, which of course is ambiguous (thanks GW) but I don't see it as unreasonable to define it as "A stratagem found in the Ork Codex." as opposed to "any stratagem that can be used by Orks", because the latter would include BRB stratagems too.

While this is an argument that can be made, I think it should be pointed out that if you want your arguments to make any kind of sense outside your own head, you should probably start by explaining why something that appears to be clearly labeled, is not. Because after reading your explanation - grots being able to use Showin' Off, and any DE unit being able to use AOV pre-faq - I agree, RAW unless it gets FAQ'd Killa Kanz can use the stratagem. But without that context, it doesn't make sense, and I think it's pretty fair to say that nobody cares about warhammer 40k rules minutiae the same way you seem to.

Next time, if you were to say "Vigilus stratagems are not Ork Stratagems because for the Grots rule to work, Ork Stratagems must mean any stratagem in the Ork Codex" then you would not need to type several paragraphs, and you could avoid using up a small quantity of the world's supply of condescension.

TIL explaining your argument thoroughly is condescending.

I am not being condescending, I apologise if you somehow interpreted that way.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That subheader has zero rules meaning. By your logic I can use "Showin' Off" on my Mek Gunz now because it's a "Bad Moons Stratagem" and not an "Orks Stratagem". There is a reason why the errata'd Agents of Vect to have the "You must have a Kabal of the Black Heart Model" rider, because the subheading has no rules meaning.

Baring any definition to the contrary, we default to what the English meaning of an "Ork Stratagem" is, which of course is ambiguous (thanks GW) but I don't see it as unreasonable to define it as "A stratagem found in the Ork Codex." as opposed to "any stratagem that can be used by Orks", because the latter would include BRB stratagems too.

I see your point, but I would interpret "Ork Stratagem" for the purposes of the Grot rule to mean "any stratagem exclusive to Orks", including all stratagems in the Ork codex and any other Ork-exclusive stratagems that may be added later, such as in Vigilus Defiant. I believe this is the most natural interpretation of the terminology, and that consequently Killa Kans cannot use Dread Waaagh! stratagems. An FAQ would be nice, but I think for planning purposes it's better to err on the side of being conservative if there's a rule that can be interpreted in two ways.

Dread WAAAGH! was one of my hopes for Kanz to be semi-viable. Whelp, guess I was wrong. I would be ecstatic for GW to FAQ it to work for them, but until then, RAW, it doesn't.

Pay F to pay respectz, boyz.

 Grimskul wrote:
Dread WAAAGH! was one of my hopes for Kanz to be semi-viable. Whelp, guess I was wrong. I would be ecstatic for GW to FAQ it to work for them, but until then, RAW, it doesn't.

Pay F to pay respectz, boyz.

Hell even if it did work for them they would still suck. The fact is that a fething Imperial Guard Sentinel is a better Walker than the KillaKan. Cheaper, more durable, better weapons and faster. GW just needs to unfeth themselves.

"Rukkatrukk Lunchbuggy's niche is to provide a Squigmine in front of the Lootabomb, provide semi useful fire support, and help allow Lootas to Loot it once it inevitably blows up."

Change my mind

 Rismonite wrote:
"Rukkatrukk Lunchbuggy's niche is to provide a Squigmine in front of the Lootabomb, provide semi useful fire support, and help allow Lootas to Loot it once it inevitably blows up."

Change my mind

It is an overpriced POS

Like all the dread detach has to do is give kans the ability to get clan traits and be effected by strats and they become viable.

 Rismonite wrote:
"Rukkatrukk Lunchbuggy's niche is to provide a Squigmine in front of the Lootabomb, provide semi useful fire support, and help allow Lootas to Loot it once it inevitably blows up."

Change my mind

I don't really think it has a niche, honestly. At 140 points, it's just not justifiable in my opinion. For 9 points more, you can have a trukk with 5 Lootas or Tankbustas in it that does a lot more for you than 3d6 shots wounding on 4's with no AP. The mine doesn't seem worth it either. Frankly, I can't think of any role for it in an army. (I haven't played with the model, so take my opinion for what it's worth).

This is more a case of "hey guys, we made a sweet model that's Orky as all and here are the rules if you want to use it in a game" rather than "the Ork army has a weakness and here is a unit that it needs to function." I do love the model. The fat Ork on the back with the shotgun is brilliant. I just can't think of anything it does that something else can't do better.

 Rismonite wrote:
"Rukkatrukk Lunchbuggy's niche is to provide a Squigmine in front of the Lootabomb, provide semi useful fire support, and help allow Lootas to Loot it once it inevitably blows up."

Change my mind

That squigmine isn't going to discourage anybody from assaulting loota star. It's bad fire support and if you want loot it just slap mek gun nearby. It's even more likely to be fired to death by being bigger threat.

 Rismonite wrote:
"Rukkatrukk Lunchbuggy's niche is to provide a Squigmine in front of the Lootabomb, provide semi useful fire support, and help allow Lootas to Loot it once it inevitably blows up."

Change my mind

If you think "has the ability to die" for is worth 140 points to you, go for it?

Put 30 boyz between the 25 lootas and their grot shields if you want to discourage people from assaulting the lootas. This way you could place the grots way far from them which is what you want for their shielding role but without leaving dangerous holes to fast flying assaulting stuff.

If the opponent is Black Heart drukhari and can negate Grot Shields by using Agents of Vect those boyz also provide the LD for the remaining lootas. You can jump those boyz later if you need them elsewhere.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Dread WAAAGH! was one of my hopes for Kanz to be semi-viable. Whelp, guess I was wrong. I would be ecstatic for GW to FAQ it to work for them, but until then, RAW, it doesn't.

Pay F to pay respectz, boyz.

Hell even if it did work for them they would still suck. The fact is that a fething Imperial Guard Sentinel is a better Walker than the KillaKan. Cheaper, more durable, better weapons and faster. GW just needs to unfeth themselves.

Cheaper: Depends on build. A big shoota kan is cheaper than a missile launcher plasma cannon or lascannon scout sentinel, those better weapons you were talking about.

More durable: Very similar, but 1 point of save is better than 1 point of wounds versus almost all weaponry.

better weapons: All sentinel weapons are Heavy, which is a real problem. The sentinel's weapons are only better if it stands completely stationary, to avoid the BS5+ that would make it worse at shooting than the kan.

faster: yep. Of course, if you use this, it's worse at shooting than the kan, which takes us to the last point of the fact that the kan is equipped with the equivalent of a space marine wielding a thunder hammer versus the sentinel which has 1 S5 Ap- D1 attack in melee. That's a bit of a difference right there, and it really should cost something.

the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Dread WAAAGH! was one of my hopes for Kanz to be semi-viable. Whelp, guess I was wrong. I would be ecstatic for GW to FAQ it to work for them, but until then, RAW, it doesn't.

Pay F to pay respectz, boyz.

Hell even if it did work for them they would still suck. The fact is that a fething Imperial Guard Sentinel is a better Walker than the KillaKan. Cheaper, more durable, better weapons and faster. GW just needs to unfeth themselves.

Cheaper: Depends on build. A big shoota kan is cheaper than a missile launcher plasma cannon or lascannon scout sentinel, those better weapons you were talking about.

More durable: Very similar, but 1 point of save is better than 1 point of wounds versus almost all weaponry.

better weapons: All sentinel weapons are Heavy, which is a real problem. The sentinel's weapons are only better if it stands completely stationary, to avoid the BS5+ that would make it worse at shooting than the kan.

faster: yep. Of course, if you use this, it's worse at shooting than the kan, which takes us to the last point of the fact that the kan is equipped with the equivalent of a space marine wielding a thunder hammer versus the sentinel which has 1 S5 Ap- D1 attack in melee. That's a bit of a difference right there, and it really should cost something.

Cheaper: Base Sentinel = 30pts Base Kan = 40 (Klaw is a free weapon but even if priced at 5pts its still more expensive)
A Sentinel with a Missile launcher or a Lascannon is 50pts. So 5pts to upgrade from a S5 ranged 36 3 shot gun to a S9 1 shot gun with -3 AP and D6 damage.

More Durable: Not very similar. Sentinel is T6 with 6 Wounds, a Kan is T5 with 5 wounds.

Better weapons: ACROSS THE BOARD BETTER! Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Multi Laser, Heavy Flamer, auto cannon and Plasma Cannon vs Big Shoota, Rokkit and KMB. Yeah, most of those are heavy, but all of them are Ranged 36+, the Missile Launcher and the Lascannon are 48, they don't need to move most of the time.

Faster: Yes it is faster, and if you give it a HEAVY FLAMER it can actually have a chance to get in range to use it. And the Kan is in fact armed with a S8 -3AP 3 damage close combat weapon with 3 attacks, damn shame it HITS ON A 5! So those 3 attacks actually equal 1 hit on average and against anything above T4 its a 33-50% chance to do 3 damage. So against cheap infantry like Space Marines you are statistically likely to kill 1 a turn.....so long as you can walk slowly across the board and not die.

It isn't even a contest dude, the Sentinel is better in every category except close combat where its in favor of the kan....SO if it can slowly walk across the board it can benefit from being better at CC even though its apparently paying 10pts more for the chance to get into CC and excel vs the Sentinel which is just better starting turn 1.

The sentinel is also FA which helps filling out brigades since there are tons of HS for AM and only hellhounds as viable FA IIRC. Kanz would have been better if FA since we also have tons of effective HS.

SemperMortis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Dread WAAAGH! was one of my hopes for Kanz to be semi-viable. Whelp, guess I was wrong. I would be ecstatic for GW to FAQ it to work for them, but until then, RAW, it doesn't.

Pay F to pay respectz, boyz.

Hell even if it did work for them they would still suck. The fact is that a fething Imperial Guard Sentinel is a better Walker than the KillaKan. Cheaper, more durable, better weapons and faster. GW just needs to unfeth themselves.

Cheaper: Depends on build. A big shoota kan is cheaper than a missile launcher plasma cannon or lascannon scout sentinel, those better weapons you were talking about.

More durable: Very similar, but 1 point of save is better than 1 point of wounds versus almost all weaponry.

better weapons: All sentinel weapons are Heavy, which is a real problem. The sentinel's weapons are only better if it stands completely stationary, to avoid the BS5+ that would make it worse at shooting than the kan.

faster: yep. Of course, if you use this, it's worse at shooting than the kan, which takes us to the last point of the fact that the kan is equipped with the equivalent of a space marine wielding a thunder hammer versus the sentinel which has 1 S5 Ap- D1 attack in melee. That's a bit of a difference right there, and it really should cost something.

Cheaper: Base Sentinel = 30pts Base Kan = 40 (Klaw is a free weapon but even if priced at 5pts its still more expensive)
A Sentinel with a Missile launcher or a Lascannon is 50pts. So 5pts to upgrade from a S5 ranged 36 3 shot gun to a S9 1 shot gun with -3 AP and D6 damage.

More Durable: Not very similar. Sentinel is T6 with 6 Wounds, a Kan is T5 with 5 wounds.

Better weapons: ACROSS THE BOARD BETTER! Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Multi Laser, Heavy Flamer, auto cannon and Plasma Cannon vs Big Shoota, Rokkit and KMB. Yeah, most of those are heavy, but all of them are Ranged 36+, the Missile Launcher and the Lascannon are 48, they don't need to move most of the time.

Faster: Yes it is faster, and if you give it a HEAVY FLAMER it can actually have a chance to get in range to use it. And the Kan is in fact armed with a S8 -3AP 3 damage close combat weapon with 3 attacks, damn shame it HITS ON A 5! So those 3 attacks actually equal 1 hit on average and against anything above T4 its a 33-50% chance to do 3 damage. So against cheap infantry like Space Marines you are statistically likely to kill 1 a turn.....so long as you can walk slowly across the board and not die.

It isn't even a contest dude, the Sentinel is better in every category except close combat where its in favor of the kan....SO if it can slowly walk across the board it can benefit from being better at CC even though its apparently paying 10pts more for the chance to get into CC and excel vs the Sentinel which is just better starting turn 1.

God, this is just the laziest....

The Kan essentially has weapons that are the same as the sentinel's, with shorter range but without Heavy. Rokkit = Missile launcher (Warning you now, if you say "frag missile" I will laugh at you, nobody has used one of those since 8th dropped). KMB = lascannon. Big Shoota = the redundant multilaser/hb. Scorcha = HF. Grotzooka is indeed pretty much garbage, and should never be used.

Sentinels are T5 W6 4+. Kanz are T5 W5 3+. As I said before, the point of armor on the kan makes it more durable against everything but AP-4 than the sentinel.

The sentinel has to be a stationary turret unless you give it a heavy flamer, in which case the melee capabilities of the kan come into play. Phrase the kan's melee output as hits if it makes you feel better, it remains a fact that the kan does 1.65 damage on average to a standard vehicle, versus the...let's see.... .055 damage on average from the Sentinel - 0, essentially.

It costs 13 points to upgrade a boss nob with a power klaw to deal an average of 1.66 damage to a vehicle in melee.

It costs 10 points to go from a HB/Multilaser scout sentinel to a Big Shoota Kan, 10 points to go from a Heavy Flamer Sentinel to a Scorcha kan, -1 point to go from a Lascannon sentinel to a KMB Kan, and 2 points to go from a ML sentinel to a rokkit kan.

I wonder where those points are going.

Maybe it's the upgrade from 0 damage in melee to the same damage a power klaw nob does.

Funny that point about frag missiles. My orks and grots gets plastered by those rather than krak's all the time.

Kan klaw is irrelevant as no opponent will let you charge vehicle seeing how easy they die. So you pay for nothing.

And they take hs slot which is bad. At fa they might have some role. At hs no

Is this a comparison between scout sentinels and kans? Because armoured sentinels are 6W with a 3+

So are Deff Dreads actually good now? TPing them in seems like a nice plan considering you can split them off at separate targets. How do we feel about the SC box now? Seems pretty strong now that DD are better and nobz got a boost

PiñaColada wrote:
Is this a comparison between scout sentinels and kans? Because armoured sentinels are 6W with a 3+

It is indeed, because I have never seen an armored sentinel in the wild. Scouts get used all the time because they can do the pregame scoot and push back the deep strike frontline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Funny that point about frag missiles. My orks and grots gets plastered by those rather than krak's all the time.

Kan klaw is irrelevant as no opponent will let you charge vehicle seeing how easy they die. So you pay for nothing.

And they take hs slot which is bad. At fa they might have some role. At hs no

if my oppponent wants to kill an average of 1 boy with a 50 point model I will remove that boy and thank him.

If you're going to dismiss melee capabilities on slower units as worthless then I'm wondering why you're not super mad that talos and grotesques didnt get a huge points drop in CA. After all they basically only have melee weapons, shouldn't they be like 20ppm?

 Billagio wrote:
So are Deff Dreads actually good now? TPing them in seems like a nice plan considering you can split them off at separate targets. How do we feel about the SC box now? Seems pretty strong now that DD are better and nobz got a boost

Issue is with screens making getting more than 1 into charge range of anything worthwhile in any decent terrain. Not able to ignore ruins like infantry hurts. Last tuesday(battle report here) i indeed had trouble deep striking to my own dz let alone enemy due to random enemy models here and there. Out of 3 dreads one could charge at lib dread. Rest had minimum of dredd base more to clear.

I'm rethinking idea of 3dredds. 2 might be better unless you have lots of screen clearing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:


if my oppponent wants to kill an average of 1 boy with a 50 point model I will remove that boy and thank him.

If you're going to dismiss melee capabilities on slower units as worthless then I'm wondering why you're not super mad that talos and grotesques didnt get a huge points drop in CA. After all they basically only have melee weapons, shouldn't they be like 20ppm?

When opponent has t4 w1 6+ and t2 w1 6+ models as only targets where the 4 devastators with missiles will shoot and what? Krak missile is worse.

And lol at talos comparison. Totally different unit as even cursory glance reveals. Hint: talon actually can make into combat and is better there. Kan just pays lots of points for that ability that comes very rarely into play

tneva82 wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
So are Deff Dreads actually good now? TPing them in seems like a nice plan considering you can split them off at separate targets. How do we feel about the SC box now? Seems pretty strong now that DD are better and nobz got a boost

Issue is with screens making getting more than 1 into charge range of anything worthwhile in any decent terrain. Not able to ignore ruins like infantry hurts. Last tuesday(battle report here) i indeed had trouble deep striking to my own dz let alone enemy due to random enemy models here and there. Out of 3 dreads one could charge at lib dread. Rest had minimum of dredd base more to clear.

I'm rethinking idea of 3dredds. 2 might be better unless you have lots of screen clearing

Of the three different kinds of "big thing you deep stirke" in the codex my favorite has been meganobz, followed by gorkanaut, followed by 3 dreads.

MANZ can charge things on upper levels and go through terrain, and overall seem to have a more flexible footprint (One model can be up in the front and the rest can file in behind him and rely on pile-ins to get in)

Gorka can drop in and use Rammin' Speed on himself, plus he brings a decent chaff clearing tool in his gun. only problem is the goofy giant base.

Agree with the 3 deff dreads. It's hard to make work. Two seems to be the magic number to teleport in.

 greggles wrote:
Agree with the 3 deff dreads. It's hard to make work. Two seems to be the magic number to teleport in.

Can report decent success with 2. True distraction carnifexes as they cannot be ignored even if they fail the initial charge.

Interesting. Thanks for the thoughts, I just feel weird not bringing the max 3 but thats just me I guess. SC (or 2) a good buy then?

SC box is a decent buy imo - especially if you have access to 3rd party sellers who often (in UK at least) do -20% or so off RRP.

You'll have a spare Painboy but could probably kitbash him in to something.