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With 3 deff-dreads, is the problem finding somewhere to put them or finding somewhere to put them where they can charge? Would 2 melee dreads and 1 shooty dread (or 1 melee and 2 shooty) make that any better?

If you have a shooty dread, better to walk them, since they can be firing from turn 1. (24 inch range on the Kmb's is pretty broad).

It's mainly positioning them so that more then one can charge, of if it is even possible to place them due to not clearing enough screen. Generally with 3, the 3rd one ends up sitting behind the other two. And since they act individually after they land, you also have to be careful you don't block los for the back dread with the front dreads you are trying to charge with!

Coh Magnussen wrote:
With 3 deff-dreads, is the problem finding somewhere to put them or finding somewhere to put them where they can charge? Would 2 melee dreads and 1 shooty dread (or 1 melee and 2 shooty) make that any better?

Like the gorkanaut, they have big meaty bases that are tough to get in a good position around pesky screening models, but unlike the gorkanaut only 1/3 of them can use Rammin Speed to greatly open up their charge range.

Ran a green tide (lite-ish) last night vs mortifactors and a knight (RF battle cannon and gatling gun of some kind). Morti's had 2 dev squads (4x plasma, 4x missiles), 2 x5 scouts with snipers and missiles, bunch of primaris intercessors, chapter master (some sort of strategem to make him a chapter master with lots of re-rolls), tactical squad shields (LOL) for my charges, predator tank.

I had in a Goff Battalion - 120 boyz with choppa/slugga, warboss with killa klaw and brutal but kunnin, big mek with KFF, 5x smasha guns.

Evil sunz battalion had 2x 10 grots, 2 weirdboys (one with da jump, one with fists of gork and warpath - warp 'ead), 30 more boys (20x shoota, 9 choppa/slugga and nob with BC), 2x 10 kommandos

And a Aux detachment of 15 lootas. This was a casual game but we still like to make good lists. He targetted the mek guns pretty quickly. took 3 of them out first turn. I fired back with lootas and took out the 4x plasma squad. shot a second time and took out the predator.

Took a huge risk and TRIED to get fists of gork on my warboss but failed. But I da jumped him 9" from the knight by himself. did 16 wounds to him. All 4 hit, wounded and went through. If I had FoG go off, I could have one shotted him. That was fun. Lootas and rest smashas chipped away at him until he died. The 180 boys did VERY well. I called this greentide-lite because I opted for 20 kommandos over upgrading the warboss the ghaz and didnt take painboys, and ONLY 180 boys. Was still fun. Some (read: a lot) of boys died as the marine player played it right by backing away and rapid firing, allowing tacs to die and counter charging. In the end we sort of just wiped each other out. Killed the chapter master with my last ork LOL.

In the end one of his 5 or so marines grabbed the relic and won.. but that was sort of a footnote in this game for us. We had a blast and everything died. Great game.

Green tide is viable and competitive I get the sense... but you MUST commit to it.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Green tide is viable and competitive I get the sense... but you MUST commit to it.

I feel like "you must commit to it" is sound advice no matter what the list building concept. Mixing and matching different units has never been a great way to go with Orks, it's always pick two or three units and spam like you're a lazy single father making dinner on his weekend with the kids.

How did the Goff kultur do for you? My first thought on seeing your list is "I would have run the big battalion as Evil Sunz and the smaller one as Bad Moonz with the Lootas and shoota boyz." To me the main reason to take Goffs would be either for extra attacks with something like Nobz or to make the boyz into Skarboyz. But I'm totally open to being wrong, I'd love to see big hordes of Goffs wrecking face.

Actually, Snakebites would have been a good kultur too, just for the free FnP without a Painboy, now I think about it. Since "it would be better as Evil Sunz" hardly seems original or insightful at this point.

Curious to get your take on whether you'd go with Goffs again for that list.

the_scotsman wrote:

The Kan essentially has weapons that are the same as the sentinel's, with shorter range but without Heavy. Rokkit = Missile launcher (Warning you now, if you say "frag missile" I will laugh at you, nobody has used one of those since 8th dropped). KMB = lascannon. Big Shoota = the redundant multilaser/hb. Scorcha = HF. Grotzooka is indeed pretty much garbage, and should never be used.

It costs 10 points to go from a HB/Multilaser scout sentinel to a Big Shoota Kan, 10 points to go from a Heavy Flamer Sentinel to a Scorcha kan, -1 point to go from a Lascannon sentinel to a KMB Kan, and 2 points to go from a ML sentinel to a rokkit kan.

I wonder where those points are going.

Maybe it's the upgrade from 0 damage in melee to the same damage a power klaw nob does.

Apparently we had a miscommunication. I am talking about ARMORED sentinels. They now cost 30ppm base without weapons thanks to CA 2018. Lets chalk that point up to oops on both our parts for not clarifying. The armored sentinel is T6 6W with a 3+ save.

As for the weapons...again, KMB = Lascannon, a Killakan with a KMB Is 49pts. its got a max range of 18 and if you roll a 1 to hit you suffer a mortal wound. The Armored Sentinel with a lascannon costs 50pts, 1 pt more. Its S9 as opposed to S8 which is a big deal vs T8 vehicles like Knights, and more importantly is 48in range! How often do 48 range weapons have to move around a game? Not to often would be my guess.
A Multi-Laser Sentinel is 35pts now which is S6 Ranged 36 3 shots HEAVY, a Big Shoota Armed Kan is 45pts S5 ranged 36 3 shots assault. So a slight advantage in assault vs heavy but completely negated by S6 vs S5 and then you throw in the 10pt difference and amazing nobody at all, the Multi-Laser sentinel is better.
A Missile Launcher armored sentinel is 45pts. Ranged 48 heavy 1 S8 -2AP D6 damage, a Rokkit armed Killakan is 52pts for a ranged 24 assault 1 S8-2AP D6 rokkit. So twice the range and 7pts cheaper....again, sentinel wins.
The Heavy Flamer/Skorcha comparison sucks even worse because they are literally the same weapon in every way but the Heavy Flamer is 3pts cheaper and the Armored Sentinel is 10pts cheaper base so easy win for hte sentinel.

So yeah, Armored Sentinels are literally just better than Killa Kanz in every way shape and form except in Close combat....and again, how often are Kanz really getting into CC? and even when they do they are still WS5.

 greggles wrote:
If you have a shooty dread, better to walk them, since they can be firing from turn 1. (24 inch range on the Kmb's is pretty broad).

It's mainly positioning them so that more then one can charge, of if it is even possible to place them due to not clearing enough screen. Generally with 3, the 3rd one ends up sitting behind the other two. And since they act individually after they land, you also have to be careful you don't block los for the back dread with the front dreads you are trying to charge with!

Or even have to deploy them in column...

Blocking LOS is pretty hard seeing they have these wide open areas in legs and any random point from feet to random point to enemy feet whatever is pretty hard to block. You can draw LOS this way through rhino's bottom...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

As for the weapons...again, KMB = Lascannon, a Killakan with a KMB Is 49pts. its got a max range of 18 and if you roll a 1 to hit you suffer a mortal wound. The Armored Sentinel with a lascannon costs 50pts, 1 pt more. Its S9 as opposed to S8 which is a big deal vs T8 vehicles like Knights, and more importantly is 48in range! How often do 48 range weapons have to move around a game? Not to often would be my guess.
A Multi-Laser Sentinel is 35pts now which is S6 Ranged 36 3 shots HEAVY, a Big Shoota Armed Kan is 45pts S5 ranged 36 3 shots assault. So a slight advantage in assault vs heavy but completely negated by S6 vs S5 and then you throw in the 10pt difference and amazing nobody at all, the Multi-Laser sentinel is better.
A Missile Launcher armored sentinel is 45pts. Ranged 48 heavy 1 S8 -2AP D6 damage, a Rokkit armed Killakan is 52pts for a ranged 24 assault 1 S8-2AP D6 rokkit. So twice the range and 7pts cheaper....again, sentinel wins.
The Heavy Flamer/Skorcha comparison sucks even worse because they are literally the same weapon in every way but the Heavy Flamer is 3pts cheaper and the Armored Sentinel is 10pts cheaper base so easy win for hte sentinel.

So yeah, Armored Sentinels are literally just better than Killa Kanz in every way shape and form except in Close combat....and again, how often are Kanz really getting into CC? and even when they do they are still WS5.

KMB has actually 24" range.

And actually for kan's defence assault over heavy does matter. Range isn't everything. There's this thing called "LOS" as well. For example last sunday my lootas kept da jumping because that was needed to get LOS(at least to anything meaningfull. Do I want to fire at 3 firewarriors or riptide? I had to da jump on turns 2 and 3 just to get LOS as it wasn't hard for opponent to use LOS blocking to cover from lootas).

I've got better results with a footslogg green tide army than with mechanic army.

My list now is hybrid, 2x30 boyz, some gretchlins, warboss, weirdboy and bigmeKFF foot. 3 deffkoptas, 10 tankbustas in BW and 10 nobz in trukk. I've got a lot of bodies for a 1500 match, but running 120 boyz is quite useless imho

 office_waaagh wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Green tide is viable and competitive I get the sense... but you MUST commit to it.

I feel like "you must commit to it" is sound advice no matter what the list building concept. Mixing and matching different units has never been a great way to go with Orks, it's always pick two or three units and spam like you're a lazy single father making dinner on his weekend with the kids.

How did the Goff kultur do for you? My first thought on seeing your list is "I would have run the big battalion as Evil Sunz and the smaller one as Bad Moonz with the Lootas and shoota boyz." To me the main reason to take Goffs would be either for extra attacks with something like Nobz or to make the boyz into Skarboyz. But I'm totally open to being wrong, I'd love to see big hordes of Goffs wrecking face.

Actually, Snakebites would have been a good kultur too, just for the free FnP without a Painboy, now I think about it. Since "it would be better as Evil Sunz" hardly seems original or insightful at this point.

Curious to get your take on whether you'd go with Goffs again for that list.

I will be honest, the only reason it was evil suns was I originally had a big unit of meganobz for tellyporting in the list instead of the auxiliary detachment of bad moons lootas, but I physically forgot to bring the models with me to my game Since I was already changing my list nearly at deployment (when we were pulling our models out) I didnt want to chnage the list up radically in front of my buddy. But yes, normally snakebites would be preffered for the weirdboys to get a save against blowing thier 'eads off. And bonus.. I ahve a bunch of forest goblins from the aos spider riders kit I can use as grots.

I freaking love the goffs. I usually do run several units of skarboyz. I make sure to alwasy save 3 cp for the unstoppable green tide strat because they tend to get attention. But popping extra hits on 6s that hit on 3s (2s if you have a waaagghh! banner) on boys is dope. It usually works out where the extra hits, completely cover the missed hits I had. I have been running all different kinds of lists trying to try and figure out what I like and what is good. So far for me its boyz, meganobz and mek gunz. goff meganobz are amazing btw... those extra hits are so impactful. but its to tempting to get the +1 charge for tellyporting. kommandos were great as evils suns for the same reason... but 10 in a unit did nothing. wasnt small enough to simply contest on obj. Wasnt big enough to be a threat.

I wonder how effective would 120 boys really be if people were forced to play them on their "new" 32 mm base... Especially in the assault phase, as not many would be able to do their attacks

Less effective obviously but good luck forcing me to rebase them. And I think someone else mentioned that when deployed right you can still get them to fight in at least 3 ranks, so you don't lose much.

addnid,
I have boyz on 32mm. I run my 30 strong squads as 20 choppa/slugga, and 10 shoota. At most I get about 20 to swing in combat, so the shootas are there to take as casuilties and to do a bit of dakka while I close the gap.

thats one thing i always forget to do is mix shoota/slugga, im so used to "All or None" with shootas.

So how does the "Turbo-boostas" stratagem work with evil sunz?

Evil sunz bikers have a 14" + they add 2" to their move characteristic and that stratagem doubles your movement characteristic.

So does it double the 14" to 28" and then add the extra 2 from evil sunz for a total of 30? Or does it add the ES first so it goes up to 16 and then doubles to 32?

PiñaColada wrote:
So how does the "Turbo-boostas" stratagem work with evil sunz?

Evil sunz bikers have a 14" + they add 2" to their move characteristic and that stratagem doubles your movement characteristic.

So does it double the 14" to 28" and then add the extra 2 from evil sunz for a total of 30? Or does it add the ES first so it goes up to 16 and then doubles to 32?

BRB Page 175, Modifying Characteristics Sidebar, Paragraph 2.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
So how does the "Turbo-boostas" stratagem work with evil sunz?

Evil sunz bikers have a 14" + they add 2" to their move characteristic and that stratagem doubles your movement characteristic.

So does it double the 14" to 28" and then add the extra 2 from evil sunz for a total of 30? Or does it add the ES first so it goes up to 16 and then doubles to 32?

BRB Page 175, Modifying Characteristics Sidebar, Paragraph 2.

Okay thanks! So in this case they'd get a 30" move then, correct?

Correct.

SemperMortis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

The Kan essentially has weapons that are the same as the sentinel's, with shorter range but without Heavy. Rokkit = Missile launcher (Warning you now, if you say "frag missile" I will laugh at you, nobody has used one of those since 8th dropped). KMB = lascannon. Big Shoota = the redundant multilaser/hb. Scorcha = HF. Grotzooka is indeed pretty much garbage, and should never be used.

It costs 10 points to go from a HB/Multilaser scout sentinel to a Big Shoota Kan, 10 points to go from a Heavy Flamer Sentinel to a Scorcha kan, -1 point to go from a Lascannon sentinel to a KMB Kan, and 2 points to go from a ML sentinel to a rokkit kan.

I wonder where those points are going.

Maybe it's the upgrade from 0 damage in melee to the same damage a power klaw nob does.

Apparently we had a miscommunication. I am talking about ARMORED sentinels. They now cost 30ppm base without weapons thanks to CA 2018. Lets chalk that point up to oops on both our parts for not clarifying. The armored sentinel is T6 6W with a 3+ save.

As for the weapons...again, KMB = Lascannon, a Killakan with a KMB Is 49pts. its got a max range of 18 and if you roll a 1 to hit you suffer a mortal wound. The Armored Sentinel with a lascannon costs 50pts, 1 pt more. Its S9 as opposed to S8 which is a big deal vs T8 vehicles like Knights, and more importantly is 48in range! How often do 48 range weapons have to move around a game? Not to often would be my guess.
A Multi-Laser Sentinel is 35pts now which is S6 Ranged 36 3 shots HEAVY, a Big Shoota Armed Kan is 45pts S5 ranged 36 3 shots assault. So a slight advantage in assault vs heavy but completely negated by S6 vs S5 and then you throw in the 10pt difference and amazing nobody at all, the Multi-Laser sentinel is better.
A Missile Launcher armored sentinel is 45pts. Ranged 48 heavy 1 S8 -2AP D6 damage, a Rokkit armed Killakan is 52pts for a ranged 24 assault 1 S8-2AP D6 rokkit. So twice the range and 7pts cheaper....again, sentinel wins.
The Heavy Flamer/Skorcha comparison sucks even worse because they are literally the same weapon in every way but the Heavy Flamer is 3pts cheaper and the Armored Sentinel is 10pts cheaper base so easy win for hte sentinel.

So yeah, Armored Sentinels are literally just better than Killa Kanz in every way shape and form except in Close combat....and again, how often are Kanz really getting into CC? and even when they do they are still WS5.

The original post I responded to about this was talking about scout sentinels, presumably because scout sentinels have a reason to exist. Armored Sentinels are (even at equal points) totally outclassed by Scout Sentinels simply because Scouts can do the 9" move pregame to push back the deep strike bubble.

That's what they do. That's the entirety of what they do. If you think a 35-point model that puts out 3 S6 AP- shots is in any way usable on its own merits, I'm not sure what to say to you. Scout sentinels have a point in competitive lists because they are a cheap fast attack slot model that grants a minor advantage against armies that use top of turn 1 deep strike alpha strikes.

The reason armored sentinels are pointless is honestly the same reason that killa kanz are pointless: Their job is done infinitely better by a HUGE number of alternative units within the Guard codex. The only reason Scouts are seen at all is that unlike killa kanz, those competitors are not in the same slot as them. "long range heavy weapon toting vehicles that can't move and must be screened to keep working" is something Guard has in droves, and "distraction carnifex that shoots a bit while it advances up the field" is something that Orks have in abundance.

Comparing the two units in a vacuum is asinine, because the usefulness of both is heavily affected by the codex they're in, but I absolutely disagree with you that an armored sentinel in a vacuum is in any way better than a killa kan. you have a unit that provides absolutely no pressure, no reason at all for any opponent to give a gak about it, that can be effortlessly invalidated by any unit down to and including gretchins, brimstones, etc because it can't fall back and shoot, and packs almost no weaponry capable of making its points back. 1 BS4 lascannon is not worth 50 points. 1 bs4 multilaser at 35 is laughable. If a killa kan was just a rokkit, it'd be worthless as well, but the very fact that you do lose yours points to the one thing that it is effective at doing, and that's absorbing firepower. Those 4 BS3+ lascannon shots it takes to kill that killa kan didn't go into a more valuable vehicle. Kanz are elevated from terrible to mediocre for the same reason Guard go from decent to drop-dead amazing: They die relatively slowly for their cost. 3+ T5 is a very efficient defensive statline if you can get your opponent to target it, which Armored Sentinels cant do, but kanz can.

Armoured sentinel still has role by virtue of being fa. Kans don't have any role. Just paying too much for pointless klaw.

As is i see armoured sentinels all the time. Kans never

If you could Grotshield with Kanz, they'd be a lot more useful in footslogging lists, since they'd be an easy way to get Loot It. As it stands, Kanz just aren't useful for anything.

if Grotshield was worded differently, sure.
As is, thats a ~50pt single wound.... "model is slain"

Okay - hear me out.

I know this is dumb but 1 trukk filled with 10 nobz all with kombi-skorchas and 2 ammo runts.

Please talk me out of this idea

PiñaColada wrote:
Okay - hear me out.

I know this is dumb but 1 trukk filled with 10 nobz all with kombi-skorchas and 2 ammo runts.

Please talk me out of this idea

The kombi skorcha (which you will fire probably once per game) is more points then the nob carrying it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
if Grotshield was worded differently, sure.
As is, thats a ~50pt single wound.... "model is slain"

I mean, the whole point was to get a better save on some Nobz or other footsloggers, so having a single Kan slog with them, get wiped, and pass on a save to the Nobz might be worth 50pts and 2CP.

At that point you might as well park em in a trukk for slightly more points but 1 cp less. Saves you the trouble of paying for the other 2 kanz as well.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Okay - hear me out.

I know this is dumb but 1 trukk filled with 10 nobz all with kombi-skorchas and 2 ammo runts.

Please talk me out of this idea

The kombi skorcha (which you will fire probably once per game) is more points then the nob carrying it.

Yep. And at an 8 inch range, you might get a dozen, maybe two, dead screen troops. Is that really worth a knight?

 Castozor wrote:
At that point you might as well park em in a trukk for slightly more points but 1 cp less. Saves you the trouble of paying for the other 2 kanz as well.

Well, you only gotta buy 1 Kan. And this is the hypothetical world where Kanz can Grotshield. Sure, you can put your Nobz in a Trukk, but you got a 1/6 chance of losing a Nob if they ain't disembarked before it's destroyed, so you're gonna lose 2 of them if you fill it up (on average). If they ain't embarked, your opponent can ignore the Trukk and just shoot the Nobz. And if they don't ignore it, you still got a 1/6 chance of losing a D3 Nobz when it explodes.

Basically, all I was saying is: Kanz might be worth taking if they could Grotshield because a nearly guaranteed Kan death means a +1 Save to your Nobz. Right now? There's nothing a Kan can do that anything else you have can't do better.

 flandarz wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
At that point you might as well park em in a trukk for slightly more points but 1 cp less. Saves you the trouble of paying for the other 2 kanz as well.

Well, you only gotta buy 1 Kan. And this is the hypothetical world where Kanz can Grotshield. Sure, you can put your Nobz in a Trukk, but you got a 1/6 chance of losing a Nob if they ain't disembarked before it's destroyed, so you're gonna lose 2 of them if you fill it up (on average). If they ain't embarked, your opponent can ignore the Trukk and just shoot the Nobz. And if they don't ignore it, you still got a 1/6 chance of losing a D3 Nobz when it explodes.

Basically, all I was saying is: Kanz might be worth taking if they could Grotshield because a nearly guaranteed Kan death means a +1 Save to your Nobz. Right now? There's nothing a Kan can do that anything else you have can't do better.

Take two Ammo Runts. You now have all Nobz survive on average.

And Explodes does NOT affect occupants.

It does not. That's why I included that as part of the "if your Nobz are disembarked" part. Specifically: "If they ain't embarked, your opponent can ignore the Trukk and just shoot the Nobz. And if they don't ignore it, you still got a 1/6 chance of losing a D3 Nobz when it explodes."

And yeah, sure. You can include some Ammo Runts. But, again, this is the hypothetical "Kanz can Grotshield" world. You could spend 64 pts, with a possibility to lose every single model in the Trukk (and an average of losing 2 Ammo Runts) to spend 1 CP and improve the Saves of 10 Nobs. Or, you could spend 45 pts, with no possibility to lose a model to a poor destroyed transport roll, to spent 2 CP and improve the Saves of 12 Nobz.

I'm not saying giving Kanz Grotshield will make them competitive. But dismissing them altogether seems shortsighted. I think that they could have a solid place in a Nob-heavy footslog list if they could shield Nobz.

 flandarz wrote:
It does not. That's why I included that as part of the "if your Nobz are disembarked" part. Specifically: "If they ain't embarked, your opponent can ignore the Trukk and just shoot the Nobz. And if they don't ignore it, you still got a 1/6 chance of losing a D3 Nobz when it explodes."

And yeah, sure. You can include some Ammo Runts. But, again, this is the hypothetical "Kanz can Grotshield" world. You could spend 64 pts, with a possibility to lose every single model in the Trukk (and an average of losing 2 Ammo Runts) to spend 1 CP and improve the Saves of 10 Nobs. Or, you could spend 45 pts, with no possibility to lose a model to a poor destroyed transport roll, to spent 2 CP and improve the Saves of 12 Nobz.

I'm not saying giving Kanz Grotshield will make them competitive. But dismissing them altogether seems shortsighted. I think that they could have a solid place in a Nob-heavy footslog list if they could shield Nobz.

If we're talking statistical improbabilities, then it's possible you can roll a 1 for every Grot Shield roll.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but you need to actually have a Grot to take the wounds to have Grot Shields work, right? So let's say I have a squad of 10 DA Hellblasters next to Azrael, firing at Nobz.

20 shots, 17-18 hits, 14-15 wounds, no saves. Except, GROT SHIELDS TO THE RESCUE! For one wound. The other 13-14 go through.