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10 DA Hellblasters will destroy a Trukk too. And if the opponent is smart, they'll bring 2 units of 5 instead. So, after destroying the Trukk with the first 5, they'll take down 7 Nobz with the second 5. Since you included 2 Ammo Runts who ate your 6s, you're down to 3 Nobz.

So yes, in the particular instance of someone swarming your Nobz with -4AP death guns, the Trukk wins out. Though, just barely, because at that point, what you gonna do with those last 3 Nobz, even with their increased Save? Whether you went with a Kan or a Trukk, you're in a bad situation once you got within 15" of that mess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, if you just wanna hate Kanz and think there's no way they could ever be viable, just say it. It's ok. I'm not a fan either. I just think they could be better if they could Grotshield.

So has any one made a feasible dred mob list yet so far? I've done MSU deathskulls, a bumblebee list (Goff Skarboyz deepstriking and Bad Moonz firebase), an Evil Sunz tellyport list and I'm probably off to try out a Freeboota list next. However, with the recent release of leaks for Vigilus, it's renewed my interest in Dred Mob somewhat. What klan would best suit them? For me it seems to boil down to either Bad Moonz, Deathskulls, Evil Sunz, or Snakebites.

Bad Moonz mainly for the reroll 1's to hit for potential multiple KMB Dakka Deff Dread loadouts and Morkanauts, Deathskullz for the built in invuln. and the re-rolls help a lot in and out of CC, Evil Sunz for tellyport units and just getting them stuck in faster, Snakebites since the 6+ FNP is more useful on multi-wound models and the WL trait is pretty good to deal with issues surrounding morale for Kanz.

With regards to the Dread WAAAAGH! detachment, the 2D6 shot Shokk Attack Gun relic is basically what the Deffskull relic should have been, so that's pushes towards Deffskullz at least being the klan of the specialist detachment. Would it be worth spending an extra CP to make the main detachment snakebites so you could have an extra Warlord trait just to make the Kanz immune to morale? Are Kanz even worth considering after the recent discussion over their "eh" place in the codex right now? Likewise for Meka Dreads, now that Deff Dreadz are much more viable than before.

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit, I'm really hoping to make Ork walkers work this edition.

addnid wrote:
I wonder how effective would 120 boys really be if people were forced to play them on their "new" 32 mm base... Especially in the assault phase, as not many would be able to do their attacks

I think you are now incentivized more than ever to do a split of choppa shootas now that you can for sure only fight in two ranks to maximize damage output.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
now that you can for sure only fight in two ranks to maximize damage output.

Has anyone done the circle-math to see if it makes sense to not pack the closest rank 100% in order to have a few "2nd rank" models that are wedged halfway in between in order to get within 1" of the target to expand the combat zone? Or perhaps to avoid base-to-base, stay ~3/4" out in order to have a larger "circle" for the 2nd rank to fill? (both 1st and 2nd rank will be able to hold more models, for that matter)

-Coh

You can actually circle pack 32mm to get 4 ranks, there's less room for error than with 25mm. I believe the upper bound for 4 rank is a 35mm diameter give or take a mm. The reality is that it'll be harder to achieve and less boyz will span the front line of your mob.

A couple of points about the pros of 32mm that I haven't seen mentioned. It's great for area denial and board control, you're consuming about 28% more space then you were before. From a convenience perspective, your boyz will fall over a lot less. I used metal washers to help balance my boyz but on uneven terrain they still tipped over. 32mm + washers keeps my models upright. Saves a lot of time during movement and pile in as you don't have to fiddle as much.

 flandarz wrote:
If you could Grotshield with Kanz, they'd be a lot more useful in footslogging lists, since they'd be an easy way to get Loot It. As it stands, Kanz just aren't useful for anything.

WITH kans? I could see if you could grotshield kans but WITH kans? Lose kan on 2+ for redirecting hit? Why that would be good?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
It does not. That's why I included that as part of the "if your Nobz are disembarked" part. Specifically: "If they ain't embarked, your opponent can ignore the Trukk and just shoot the Nobz. And if they don't ignore it, you still got a 1/6 chance of losing a D3 Nobz when it explodes."

And yeah, sure. You can include some Ammo Runts. But, again, this is the hypothetical "Kanz can Grotshield" world. You could spend 64 pts, with a possibility to lose every single model in the Trukk (and an average of losing 2 Ammo Runts) to spend 1 CP and improve the Saves of 10 Nobs. Or, you could spend 45 pts, with no possibility to lose a model to a poor destroyed transport roll, to spent 2 CP and improve the Saves of 12 Nobz.

I'm not saying giving Kanz Grotshield will make them competitive. But dismissing them altogether seems shortsighted. I think that they could have a solid place in a Nob-heavy footslog list if they could shield Nobz.

There's HUGE cost you are ignoring here. Something that makes this strategy way too expensive.

You would lose your once per turn grot screen strategem. There's waaaay better uses for that. Opponent will be happy to give you that +1 for all that price and be able to blow up lootas, tank bustas, skarboyz, meganobz etc that he would be able to shoot otherwise.

Yet another price: No deep striking and thus limited to foot slogging so +1 save or not you are dead before combat anyway.

 Grimskul wrote:
So has any one made a feasible dred mob list yet so far? I've done MSU deathskulls, a bumblebee list (Goff Skarboyz deepstriking and Bad Moonz firebase), an Evil Sunz tellyport list and I'm probably off to try out a Freeboota list next. However, with the recent release of leaks for Vigilus, it's renewed my interest in Dred Mob somewhat. What klan would best suit them? For me it seems to boil down to either Bad Moonz, Deathskulls, Evil Sunz, or Snakebites.

Bad Moonz mainly for the reroll 1's to hit for potential multiple KMB Dakka Deff Dread loadouts and Morkanauts, Deathskullz for the built in invuln. and the re-rolls help a lot in and out of CC, Evil Sunz for tellyport units and just getting them stuck in faster, Snakebites since the 6+ FNP is more useful on multi-wound models and the WL trait is pretty good to deal with issues surrounding morale for Kanz.

With regards to the Dread WAAAAGH! detachment, the 2D6 shot Shokk Attack Gun relic is basically what the Deffskull relic should have been, so that's pushes towards Deffskullz at least being the klan of the specialist detachment. Would it be worth spending an extra CP to make the main detachment snakebites so you could have an extra Warlord trait just to make the Kanz immune to morale? Are Kanz even worth considering after the recent discussion over their "eh" place in the codex right now? Likewise for Meka Dreads, now that Deff Dreadz are much more viable than before.

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit, I'm really hoping to make Ork walkers work this edition.

Honestly that 2d6 shokk attack gun might make the detachment worth it on its own (since you don't actually need to have any dreads in your dread Waaagh! for some reason). Put on a Deathskull with their warlord trait for character sniping and with some luck/rerolls he could be an absolute terror. I want to try out a deathskullz dred detachment with burna boyz with KMB meks and a morkanaut. Throw in a couple of double KMB dreads and it's 3D3+8 shots at S8 D6 damage AP-3 with a reroll per model (rough math averages 16 wounds vs T8 5++). Only really good target for the double shooting stratagem is probably a gork/morkanaut or maybe the souped up shokka character. Makes it a bit tough since the stratagems etc work best for shooting but a dread list is probably not going to win a shooting war with anyone, but I'm curious to try it out.

Honestly, outside of the souped up shokka and the shoot twice stratagem, Dred Waaagh! doesn't actually do much.

Regarding a hypothetical world in which you could Grot Shield with kanz...I still don't think it's a good use of the kan, but I don't believe you could use Loot it! since the vehicle isn't "destroyed," it's "slain". If you do want to use the kan as an armour bonus generator, there's nothing stopping you from doing so after your opponent kills it the old fashioned way, on account of not wanting to get kan klawed in the face. Though, again, I don't think it's a good idea.

 Grimskul wrote:
So has any one made a feasible dred mob list yet so far? I've done MSU deathskulls, a bumblebee list (Goff Skarboyz deepstriking and Bad Moonz firebase), an Evil Sunz tellyport list and I'm probably off to try out a Freeboota list next. However, with the recent release of leaks for Vigilus, it's renewed my interest in Dred Mob somewhat. What klan would best suit them? For me it seems to boil down to either Bad Moonz, Deathskulls, Evil Sunz, or Snakebites.

Bad Moonz mainly for the reroll 1's to hit for potential multiple KMB Dakka Deff Dread loadouts and Morkanauts, Deathskullz for the built in invuln. and the re-rolls help a lot in and out of CC, Evil Sunz for tellyport units and just getting them stuck in faster, Snakebites since the 6+ FNP is more useful on multi-wound models and the WL trait is pretty good to deal with issues surrounding morale for Kanz.

With regards to the Dread WAAAAGH! detachment, the 2D6 shot Shokk Attack Gun relic is basically what the Deffskull relic should have been, so that's pushes towards Deffskullz at least being the klan of the specialist detachment. Would it be worth spending an extra CP to make the main detachment snakebites so you could have an extra Warlord trait just to make the Kanz immune to morale? Are Kanz even worth considering after the recent discussion over their "eh" place in the codex right now? Likewise for Meka Dreads, now that Deff Dreadz are much more viable than before.

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit, I'm really hoping to make Ork walkers work this edition.

Odds of rolling multiple 1's is so small(even 1 isn't quaranteed with 4 KMB) that dethskull trumps bad moon. It's basically evil sun for deep striking, dethskulls for shooty ones.

And no kans. Just don't. They serve zero purpose. If they were FA they might be included but in HS they serve zero purpose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 office_waaagh wrote:
Honestly that 2d6 shokk attack gun might make the detachment worth it on its own (since you don't actually need to have any dreads in your dread Waaagh! for some reason). Put on a Deathskull with their warlord trait for character sniping and with some luck/rerolls he could be an absolute terror.

Big issue with that combo is 18" range on heavy weapon with 60" range. If opponent is the kind that comes close it could be good. If you face gunline it's exposing yourself to more risk. The cool thing about that is very good long range gun that's very hard to remove due to being character.

Coh Magnussen wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
now that you can for sure only fight in two ranks to maximize damage output.

Has anyone done the circle-math to see if it makes sense to not pack the closest rank 100% in order to have a few "2nd rank" models that are wedged halfway in between in order to get within 1" of the target to expand the combat zone? Or perhaps to avoid base-to-base, stay ~3/4" out in order to have a larger "circle" for the 2nd rank to fill? (both 1st and 2nd rank will be able to hold more models, for that matter)

-Coh

Yes I did the math. Lets assume you have a straight combat front 100mm wide. The force concentration for 2 tight ranks 32mm bases are 6.25 minis/100mm

To fit 4 ranks you need the 2nd rank to be wedged in 1" from the front. After some trigonometry, each column of minis take 38,92mm instead of 32mm. 100mm/38,92mm*4ranks=10,27minis

So the force concentration of 32mm bases in 4 ranks are 10.27/100mm.

Building up mob of 10 nobz. 3 will have big choppa and choppa, rest double choppa.

What I'm trying to figure out goff or evil sun. Guess evil sun is the obvious one but I'm trying to find some use for goffs since I have Ghaz, mob of boyz, meganobz(5) and gorkanaut as goffs as well.

How has the goff trait been with nobz? With 9 S7 -1 D2 and 35 S5 attacks those 6's could help nicely(too bad goff trait is unmodified 6's or nob w/waagh banner would be nasty).

Without +1 to charge roll unreliable charge though :-/ BW and ramming speed would get closer and maybe tag shooty unit for a round but that leads into issue of surround+kill.

PiñaColada wrote:
Okay - hear me out.

I know this is dumb but 1 trukk filled with 10 nobz all with kombi-skorchas and 2 ammo runts.

Please talk me out of this idea

It has the same weakness as the infamous burna wagon - it has no defense against getting locked in combat, so you get to flame once and then the whole thing is off.

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Okay - hear me out.

I know this is dumb but 1 trukk filled with 10 nobz all with kombi-skorchas and 2 ammo runts.

Please talk me out of this idea

It has the same weakness as the infamous burna wagon - it has no defense against getting locked in combat, so you get to flame once and then the whole thing is off.

You can make them blood axes to give them the ability to fall back and shoot.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Okay - hear me out.

I know this is dumb but 1 trukk filled with 10 nobz all with kombi-skorchas and 2 ammo runts.

Please talk me out of this idea

It has the same weakness as the infamous burna wagon - it has no defense against getting locked in combat, so you get to flame once and then the whole thing is off.

You can make them blood axes to give them the ability to fall back and shoot.

Indeed and I wanted to try that out, until i realised the total cost: 374 points unless i'm mistaken (17+14 per flamer nob, then 64 for the trukk)

Look, it's a stupid idea, I know that. I'm weighing if it's fun enough to actually buy, build and paint that many skorcha nobs for a trick that you'll only ever get to use once per opponent (if even that). Also, 374 points is without the ammo runts, so add another 8 I'd say.

This would probably be a ridiculous build made to be less point efficient so I could run it against other sub-optimised/thematic lists. I guess what it comes down to is how much usage have people gotten out of skorcha nobz in general? I'm thinking if I'd try this, I'd have a lot of those to sprinkle into other units should I want to, have people run them with success?

PiñaColada wrote:
Look, it's a stupid idea, I know that. I'm weighing if it's fun enough to actually buy, build and paint that many skorcha nobs for a trick that you'll only ever get to use once per opponent (if even that). Also, 374 points is without the ammo runts, so add another 8 I'd say.

This would probably be a ridiculous build made to be less point efficient so I could run it against other sub-optimised/thematic lists. I guess what it comes down to is how much usage have people gotten out of skorcha nobz in general? I'm thinking if I'd try this, I'd have a lot of those to sprinkle into other units should I want to, have people run them with success?

Well at least its better than burna boyz

Kombi-corchas are, IMHO, absolutely the worst costed weapon in the entire ork codex. 17 points for such a bad weapon is incredible. It would need " if you roll under 4 on the number of shots, use "4" instead"

PiñaColada wrote:
Look, it's a stupid idea, I know that. I'm weighing if it's fun enough to actually buy, build and paint that many skorcha nobs for a trick that you'll only ever get to use once per opponent (if even that). Also, 374 points is without the ammo runts, so add another 8 I'd say.

Magnetize the skorcha arm? Or even just 'loot' a marine hand-flamer and magnetize it to a slugga... though with the new codex I'm guessing sluggas are going to be replaced in droves by an extra choppa.

addnid wrote:
Kombi-corchas are, IMHO, absolutely the worst costed weapon in the entire ork codex. 17 points for such a bad weapon is incredible. It would need " if you roll under 4 on the number of shots, use "4" instead"

Hey, now. Let's not forget the humble bubblechukka, zzap gun, kannon, and lobba. And an honorable mention to the burna, which still has an effective cost. At least the kombi-skorcha could be funny (and is great in KT).

Although, if you want to go full on pyro, you might as well spring for a chinork to get those skorchas where they need to be at breakneck speed and with the fly keyword. It can only hold ten, but that's still more than enough for this to be awesomely stupid. Replace one of the nobs with a Big Mek dual wielding a kombi-skorcha and the relic blunderbuss and go to town.

I've always wanted to do something like this, too, but could never justify it past the initial chuckle.

Sooooo... I'm about to face Harlequins friday in a test match for an upcoming tourney. He'll be playing at least 12 Skyweavers and several Starweavers with Troupes embarked (he likes to use at least 3 Fusion pistols here).

I need some ideas on how to deal with them without tailoring too much because my list must be able to deal with all kind of threats. Any ideas ?

My list so far is 2 Battalions :

SAG Mek / Weirdboy / Weirdboy / Another HQ
30 / 20 / 10 Boyz and 10 / 10 / 10 gretchins

Am I wrong to think that bringing any vehicles will basically mean auto-lose ?

I'd highly suggest bringing some mek guns, particularly traktor kannons and smasha guns. The auto hit will be a godsend versus all those negatives to hit, and if the wound gets through, with 2D6 damage choosing the highest you have a good chance to wipe one out in a single shot. Plus they blow up automatically! Similarly, the smasha gun does well since starweavers are only T5, making them very easy to wound on a 2D6.

Use grots to screen them (remember flip belts only work in the movement phase now) and other than that maybe a dakkajet or other unit that has a good amount of mid strength shots to get past their 4+ save.

Yeah mate, honestly if you're preparing for a tourney you should bring your tourney army. If you're bringing vehicles you need practice keeping them safe from something like this. Having said that, Bad Moon Lootas with the standard stratagems will absolutely wreck that list.

Just an update on my nobz list ive been trying out. We have won our 2nd game. The nobz crushed some GSC in a narrative mission.

I was very happy with how the nob list has been performing. It might not be a top tier army but it defiantly packs a punch.

 Nym wrote:
Sooooo... I'm about to face Harlequins friday in a test match for an upcoming tourney. He'll be playing at least 12 Skyweavers and several Starweavers with Troupes embarked (he likes to use at least 3 Fusion pistols here).

I need some ideas on how to deal with them without tailoring too much because my list must be able to deal with all kind of threats. Any ideas ?

My list so far is 2 Battalions :

SAG Mek / Weirdboy / Weirdboy / Another HQ
30 / 20 / 10 Boyz and 10 / 10 / 10 gretchins

Am I wrong to think that bringing any vehicles will basically mean auto-lose ?

Rokkits with More Dakka should make pretty quick work of anything Harlequin vehicle/bike. All their stuff has wound counts in neat multiples of 3.

Just add some Trakktor kannons for good measure.

Why you guys prefer double Choppa nobz over BC ?
My mathematics tells me that BC nobz are better vs everything.
5-6 of them in a G-NAUT are gonna have to do some hard cleaning T3, by than all the chaffs should be already gone. No?

 Emicrania wrote:
Why you guys prefer double Choppa nobz over BC ?
My mathematics tells me that BC nobz are better vs everything.
5-6 of them in a G-NAUT are gonna have to do some hard cleaning T3, by than all the chaffs should be already gone. No?

I think it has to do with keeping them cheap, since 14 points for 5 attacks at S5 a Nob is pretty damn good. Normally having all Big Choppas is overkill, and Nobz don't usually want to go for the heavier hitters themselves personally anyways.

Yes I too prefer a mix of BC and double choppa nobz so far. Double choppa is just so cheap, treat them as extra wound for the BC dudes when needed and 5 S5 attacks are pretty fearsome if they do make it into combat.

Yeah, mix them.
Ive been doing 6 BC+Chop and 4 ChopChop nobz

Unless they are completely ignored, usually only 1-2 of the chopchop nobz even reaches melee for me.

5 Str5 attacks for 14 pts seems pretty good. Only issue is facilitating them into combat

Nobz are a prime candidate for taking advantage of Loot it since it brings them up to a 3+ save. Combined with 2 wounds each it makes them surprisingly resilient.

The challenge with them is the same as with everything in the Ork army. Nothing we have is terribly impressive defensively so we have to rely on sheer numbers. Chances are any opponent will have a good source of high strength, high rate of fire, 2 damage weapons that will shred Nobz into wet, green confetti. So the best strategy is to either not take anything multi-wound so all their high damage shots are wasted, or else take so much of it that you overwhelm their shooting and they can't kill it all. This is the problem with Nobz. If you just take a unit of Nobz you're just feeding your opponent's autocannons their ideal targets, and they probably weren't shooting anything else if you're otherwise bringing either heavy armour or boyz.

That said, another idea I have is to try out a bikes-and-trukk-nobz list, and just go all in on 2W 4+ models that move at lightning speed. Just have to finish painting the wartrike (grumble grumble...)

Man Stratagems would have been a great time to bring the Kan Wall back in some form. Bit of a missed oppurtunity.

While I was reading about Nob armies I was wondering if the Nob Biker star couldn't exsist some how again with the assistance of grot shields. As in, deploy behind some MSU grot squads, then on your first turn move forward, and tellyport a full 30 man grot squad into grot shield range again. You'd need a full compliment of Big Mek on Bike with KFF and Painboy on Bike to help get durability out of the 30 man grot screen for when the enemy inevitably decides to burry all their anti infantry shooting into them. But it might be a way to get a pretty scary squad of BikerNobz on the table again.

EDIT; Might be ideal to have a useful Buggy for overwatch eating, unless Loot it doesn't include bikes, it might be sweet to get that Stratagem on the NobBikers right after the escort buggy dies to something awful in overwatch on assault.