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Barney000 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

Barney000 wrote:
I've not been able to have a game with the new codex yet but am really liking the idea off a full squad off deffkoptas with rokkits. Using the evil suns strat for 48" range on the bombs seems tempting and then the -1 strat to protect them from return fire. Has anyone had any experience using big squads?

The bombs are gone from the codex, so if you are using index koptas you will need to pay the index price...and presumably they don't get kultures. Not likely any real value.

I have used some, and they can get some timely rokkit hits, finishing off vehicles that were wounded by tankbustas or mek guns, or blasting heavy infantry. They are pretty flexible with that range, stopping on objectives or getting behind things.

Mostly I've used them as distraction carnifexes, to be honest. 250 points for 5 is a bit high for the damage they can do.

I thought that using the GW flowchart you could use the codex datasheet but then chose a wargear option from the index? Please correct me if I am wrong.

A squad of five koptas would average about 9 mortal wounds to an squad of 5+ models, using the bombs. To do that with a 48" range seems powerful. Add in shooting and they could even make their points back in one turn against the right target.

Hmmm....I thought that since the bomb wasn't an option (it was already included on the index koptas) you couldn't select it as an optional item...but I may have that wrong.

There was some discussion on lootas but didn't want to quote the whole thing. Are people only finding 25 lootas viable? What about one unit of 15 lootas? I own 12 and am interested in running them but tentative about buying more and committing to 20+ lootas.

JimOnMars wrote:Hmmm....I thought that since the bomb wasn't an option (it was already included on the index koptas) you couldn't select it as an optional item...but I may have that wrong.

I've got the index here and the bigbomm is a wargear option, so you can take it with the Codex Deffkopta in accordance with the Designers Commentary.

MannyMcCoconut wrote:
I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe that ramming speed can only be used on a single vehicle model. I don't think it works on a squadron.

It applies to any VEHICLE unit so a full Deffkoptas squad can use it. The number of mortal wounds isn't affected by the model count.

Having not run lootas before, is the STR7 AP-1 even effective enough on its own?

I've always loved the look of artillery better, and Mek Guns just seem like they get the job done better for cheaper.

What are the most competitive forgeworld unit for the orks?

ballzonya wrote:
What are the most competitive forgeworld unit for the orks?

Zhadsnark da Ripper. A better Biker Boss that is still "legal" if you can't use the GW indexes anymore.

I guess I should have specified, besides zhadsnark cause he's the obvious choice. Kill tank is good?

ballzonya wrote:
I guess I should have specified, besides zhadsnark cause he's the obvious choice. Kill tank is good?

Discounting Zhadsnark, then nothing is usable.

That bad eh? Too bad cause I love the look of the meka dread and kill tank

Ehh, Garg squiggoth is still useable. Granted all titanic models without a 4++ or better have it rough in the current meta with macro weaponry.

Regarding the Dread Waaagh detachment, does it require a minimum number of models, or specific ones?

I would love to use it as a single soup-ed up SAG, without walkers, just the mek. Would that be a legal detachment?

 JimOnMars wrote:
Regarding the Dread Waaagh detachment, does it require a minimum number of models, or specific ones?

I would love to use it as a single soup-ed up SAG, without walkers, just the mek. Would that be a legal detachment?

Yup, there's no model requirement, you can literally choose any detachment to upgrade it to become a Dread WAAAGH! detachment, even with zero walkers in it, bizarrely enough.

 Grimskul wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Regarding the Dread Waaagh detachment, does it require a minimum number of models, or specific ones?

I would love to use it as a single soup-ed up SAG, without walkers, just the mek. Would that be a legal detachment?

Yup, there's no model requirement, you can literally choose any detachment to upgrade it to become a Dread WAAAGH! detachment, even with zero walkers in it, bizarrely enough.

So a Brigade can be a Dread Waaagh????!?!? In other words, non-bad moons can shoot twice now, rick cot and tree? ETA: Only walkers and meks can use the stratagem. No hope for my bloodaxe tankbustas!

Or: two separate units of bad moons can shoot twice every turn...once with each stratagem. That's a lot of lead.

ballzonya wrote:
That bad eh? Too bad cause I love the look of the meka dread and kill tank

the men’s dread is alright Like the Garg squig. It’s just not super competitive and mainly good for a fairly mobile kff.

 JimOnMars wrote:

Barney000 wrote:
I've not been able to have a game with the new codex yet but am really liking the idea off a full squad off deffkoptas with rokkits. Using the evil suns strat for 48" range on the bombs seems tempting and then the -1 strat to protect them from return fire. Has anyone had any experience using big squads?

The bombs are gone from the codex, so if you are using index koptas you will need to pay the index price...and presumably they don't get kultures. Not likely any real value.

I have used some, and they can get some timely rokkit hits, finishing off vehicles that were wounded by tankbustas or mek guns, or blasting heavy infantry. They are pretty flexible with that range, stopping on objectives or getting behind things.

Mostly I've used them as distraction carnifexes, to be honest. 250 points for 5 is a bit high for the damage they can do.

You use dethkopta price from codex and index price for bombs...which is free(one of GW's silly ideas. Let's give unit free upgrade with no downside whatsoever...ummm...yeah? WTF? Ditto for tank busta bombs in codex in boyz mobs...).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MannyMcCoconut wrote:
Has anyone had any luck using the Deffkoptas for ramming speed mortal wounds? It seems like they could be a cheap way to deliver targeted mortal wounds where needed.

2CP for d3 mortal wounds is pretty steep...Wouldn't be my default strategy. 2CP can generally be used for more effective thing like fire tank bustas or lootas one more time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quackzo wrote:
There was some discussion on lootas but didn't want to quote the whole thing. Are people only finding 25 lootas viable? What about one unit of 15 lootas? I own 12 and am interested in running them but tentative about buying more and committing to 20+ lootas.

15 has done well enough for me. 25 would be better but I'm hesitant to get 10 more figuring GW will hit nerfbat once lootas have sold enough.

Has killed unit of death company and nearly wiped sanquinary squad(got the 1 on reroll he needed for morale to keep that last alive. Pretty big). 2 dakkajets, one shotting riptide, general mayhem all around. Only time it has been less than stellar was against eldars when I misused them(lesson to self: don't prioritize wave serpents with. Losing D2 sucks)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ajax_xaja wrote:
Having not run lootas before, is the STR7 AP-1 even effective enough on its own?

I've always loved the look of artillery better, and Mek Guns just seem like they get the job done better for cheaper.

With 15 mob you are looking at scoring 34 HITS in average on turn if you so choose. 29 if you want to save up on CP's and not use more dakka. That's blowing up stuff at will. Full squad of 25 would average 57 at full power. That's been doing havoc.

Mek guns run into issue that if you don't have like dozen or lots of other threatening vehicles they will get sniped out by AT guns. You need something like two battlewagons loaded up with nasty stuff to ensure enemy doesn't have automatic choice in what to do with AT guns. My attempts at 4-6 mek guns with otherwise infantry heavy army(3 deff dreads but those are irrelevant. If they start on board they aren't threatening anybody T1 so can be ignored T1 anyway. If they start in tellyporta they aren't shootable on T1 anyway so T1 enemy will just kill the mek guns) has been total failure for this reason.

 Quackzo wrote:
There was some discussion on lootas but didn't want to quote the whole thing. Are people only finding 25 lootas viable? What about one unit of 15 lootas? I own 12 and am interested in running them but tentative about buying more and committing to 20+ lootas.

12-15 are also good, and of course you need gretchins to shield them. They perform good if you have a list based on footsloggers though, I mostly play with vehicles and tried 15 lootas as an alternative to 10 tankbustas + 2 bomb squigs + trukk sinche there's just 1 point of difference. I prefer the bustas but that's mostly because of target saturation. Anyway lootas are dead weight without gretchins and gretchins are mandatory to provide the CPs for double tapping with lootas, not only to shield them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:


Mek guns run into issue that if you don't have like dozen or lots of other threatening vehicles they will get sniped out by AT guns. You need something like two battlewagons loaded up with nasty stuff to ensure enemy doesn't have automatic choice in what to do with AT guns. My attempts at 4-6 mek guns with otherwise infantry heavy army(3 deff dreads but those are irrelevant. If they start on board they aren't threatening anybody T1 so can be ignored T1 anyway. If they start in tellyporta they aren't shootable on T1 anyway so T1 enemy will just kill the mek guns) has been total failure for this reason.

Yeah I agree, mek gunz really shine if they're in high numbers or if they have target saturation. I usually don't go heavy with mek gunz, just 2-3 of them and they're tipycally ignored since 3x deff rollas vehicles and two trukks full of bustas are priority targets than the artillery. Up to 6-7 if I cut a unit of bustas and its trukk. Still ignored by enemy firepower as long as the bonebreakas/BWs are alive, deep strikers are more concerning.

ballzonya wrote:
I guess I should have specified, besides zhadsnark cause he's the obvious choice. Kill tank is good?

I've had quite a killing spree with the Big Trakk with Suppa-skorcha. That weapon is ace. But perhaps not in a competetive environment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
I guess I should have specified, besides zhadsnark cause he's the obvious choice. Kill tank is good?

I've had quite a killing spree with the Big Trakk with Suppa-skorcha. That weapon is ace. But perhaps not in a competetive environment.

 Grimskul wrote:

Yup, there's no model requirement, you can literally choose any detachment to upgrade it to become a Dread WAAAGH! detachment, even with zero walkers in it, bizarrely enough.

It's just a SAG which costs an additional CP. Worth it if you ask me. Being Freebootaz or Bad Moons would make it a Dead killy weapon. Going to give it a first go this weekend.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Regarding the Dread Waaagh detachment, does it require a minimum number of models, or specific ones?

I would love to use it as a single soup-ed up SAG, without walkers, just the mek. Would that be a legal detachment?

Yup, there's no model requirement, you can literally choose any detachment to upgrade it to become a Dread WAAAGH! detachment, even with zero walkers in it, bizarrely enough.

So a Brigade can be a Dread Waaagh????!?!? In other words, non-bad moons can shoot twice now, rick cot and tree? ETA: Only walkers and meks can use the stratagem. No hope for my bloodaxe tankbustas!

Or: two separate units of bad moons can shoot twice every turn...once with each stratagem. That's a lot of lead.

Well, I'd love to use that fire twice stratagem on a Morkanaut...

So I think I've settled on what I want to run competitively. I decided to go with a tankbusta star instead of lootas because I don't like the cp investment to make lootas viable and am kinda bored with them anyways. Feedback welcome.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
So I think I've settled on what I want to run competitively. I decided to go with a tankbusta star instead of lootas because I don't like the cp investment to make lootas viable and am kinda bored with them anyways. Feedback welcome.

Spoiler:

2000pts
battalion: evil sunz

HQ
Bikerboss - killa klaw, brutal but kunnin
Big mek - KFF

Troops
3x30 boyz - 20 sluggas/10 shootas, nob w/ bc, (1 unit in teleporta)

Elites
2 painboys

Heavy support
3 smasha's

battalion: bad moonz

HQ
Big mek - KFF
Weirdboi - da jump

Troops
30 grots
20 grots
10 grots

Elites
15 tankbustas
10 tankbustas

Battalion: bad moonz

HQ
weirdboy - warpath
weirdboy - fist of Gork

Troops
3x10 grots


Basic gameplan is warpath and da jump unit of boys turns 1 and 2 with teleporta boys coming in on 2. Rest of the army stays in the 5++/6+++ bubble with grots and hovers around middle, while smashas camp backfield obj. Overall I think I like this build more because it allows me to be mobile and control the board better. Also will save a lot of cp's for things like green tide, extra stikkbombs, ect.

If you trade the painboyz for deffkoptas and a few more tankbustas, you could get a brigade for two of the battalions, for two more CP. Personally I'd take at least one trukk for the bustas...not sure if you can squeeze it in.

No matter what, I'd make the smashas bad moons...they will probably roll a couple ones a turn, unless they get pasted before you move.

It seems to me this is going to be our go-to list, grots, bustas and smashas.

I think you're going to need some morale control for the grots...that unit of 30 is going to melt. Otherwise I expect your big problem is going to be the 24 inch range on those tankbustas.

Worth considering that Tankbustas already get full rerolls to hit when shooting vehicles, so the Bad Moons Kultur doesn't do a whole lot for them, whereas the Evil Sunz Kultur will let them fire at full BS if they advance and give them a larger threat radius. Downside is they lose access to the double-shoot stratagem, so depends what you want more out of them.

I guess my other main comment is that if you fought a mirror match against your own list except with the tankbustas swapped out for lootas, you'd get wrecked. 425 points is a lot to sink into such a niche unit. Some ranged anti-horde would go a long way.

All in all, I like this list. You've been very disciplined with unit selection, there's nothing here for your opponent's anti-armour assets to sink their teeth into, and nothing you're doing is terribly CP dependent leaving you with flexibility to use them where they're needed. The "effectively 4++" grots can control the field with a little morale support, leaving the Boyz free to run amok, grab objectives, and beat up on targets of opportunity. Ideally 90 Boyz moving an average 10.5" per turn and jumping around the board will put enough pressure on your opponent that your grot horde can control the mid-table relatively unmolested.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
So I think I've settled on what I want to run competitively. I decided to go with a tankbusta star instead of lootas because I don't like the cp investment to make lootas viable and am kinda bored with them anyways. Feedback welcome.

Spoiler:

2000pts
battalion: evil sunz

HQ
Bikerboss - killa klaw, brutal but kunnin
Big mek - KFF

Troops
3x30 boyz - 20 sluggas/10 shootas, nob w/ bc, (1 unit in teleporta)

Elites
2 painboys

Heavy support
3 smasha's

battalion: bad moonz

HQ
Big mek - KFF
Weirdboi - da jump

Troops
30 grots
20 grots
10 grots

Elites
15 tankbustas
10 tankbustas

Battalion: bad moonz

HQ
weirdboy - warpath
weirdboy - fist of Gork

Troops
3x10 grots


Basic gameplan is warpath and da jump unit of boys turns 1 and 2 with teleporta boys coming in on 2. Rest of the army stays in the 5++/6+++ bubble with grots and hovers around middle, while smashas camp backfield obj. Overall I think I like this build more because it allows me to be mobile and control the board better. Also will save a lot of cp's for things like green tide, extra stikkbombs, ect.

If you trade the painboyz for deffkoptas and a few more tankbustas, you could get a brigade for two of the battalions, for two more CP. Personally I'd take at least one trukk for the bustas...not sure if you can squeeze it in.

No matter what, I'd make the smashas bad moons...they will probably roll a couple ones a turn, unless they get pasted before you move.

It seems to me this is going to be our go-to list, grots, bustas and smashas.

Smasha gunz can't benefit from any kultur trait so they can't re-roll ones, unless I missed something from CA.

Trukk for bustas would be useless since I think he's planning on mobbing the 25 of the up. In fact this is basically the same tactics than the lootas bomb but with tankbustas instead. You save a lot of re-rolls and gain damage output against T7 and T8 but thanks to rokkits shorter range they'd be harder to screen by gretchins as they can't just sit in a corner. Still CP thirsty, you'll likely invest the same amount of CPs on that star than the lootas one, barring che eventual re-roll for the D3 shots. I'd probably just take 15 tellyported bustas plus 6 bomb squigs and more mek gunz instead.

 Blackie wrote:
Trukk for bustas would be useless since I think he's planning on mobbing the 25 of the up. In fact this is basically the same tactics than the lootas bomb but with tankbustas instead. You save a lot of re-rolls and gain damage output against T7 and T8 but thanks to rokkits shorter range they'd be harder to screen by gretchins as they can't just sit in a corner. Still CP thirsty, you'll likely invest the same amount of CPs on that star than the lootas one, barring che eventual re-roll for the D3 shots. I'd probably just take 15 tellyported bustas plus 6 bomb squigs and more mek gunz instead.

Slightly less need for more dakka saves some CP saves something.

Quick question for you warbosses, with Deathskull trait what would you choose between 5 kommandos with 2 rokkits and a single rokkit kopta in a low point setting (800-1000pts) ?

2 rokkit shots each
kommandos are more expensive by 12 points
both can tp turn 2 (but kommandos are not limited to do it 14" from an edge, but 14" is a lot so)
as deathskull, kommandos have "dis is ours", which is nice but there is just 5 of them so
kopta is way more mobile
they seem roughly equivalent to me as for survivability and (negligeable) melee output

Thoughs ?

T5 4+ save 4 wounds is IMO more survivable than 5 T4 6+ 1W models. Especially when in speed you can hide easily(more so in small games). Also morale is less issue. Lose 3 kommandos and you are looking at possibly failing morale right away.

It's 6 wounds on the kommandos thanks to the nob. ANd with cover you can easily get 4+ (3+ on the kopta).

Moral is a fair point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bonus question : As I read it, you roll for the SAG strength before firing the weapon, so before choosing a target, am I right ?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
I guess I should have specified, besides zhadsnark cause he's the obvious choice. Kill tank is good?

Discounting Zhadsnark, then nothing is usable.

surely the chinork is usable? Run it Deffskullz and throw a KMB on it and you've got a flying trukk with an actual gun.

i dont own a chinork but i hear a lot of praise for the thing.

 IronSlug wrote:
It's 6 wounds on the kommandos thanks to the nob. ANd with cover you can easily get 4+ (3+ on the kopta).

Moral is a fair point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bonus question : As I read it, you roll for the SAG strength before firing the weapon, so before choosing a target, am I right ?

I think it depends on what's in the rest of your army. If your whole army is infantry except for one deffkopta, that one deffkopta is going to attract all of your opponent's multi-damage shooting. On the other hand if the rest of your army is mechanized except for one little unit of dismounted kommandos sitting on an objective, every bolter within 24" is going to have exactly one obvious target. Neither unit is terribly survivable if your opponent decides s/he really wants them to die, so they'll have to rely on being inconspicuous/not posing much threat to do their job. To that end, if possible (ie, if you have the models) I'd drop the rokkits either way as they won't do much (vs T8 3+ you'll get one successful wound every ~3 turns, so you're paying 24 points in rokkits to do 3 damage once over the course of the game *if* they survive long enough to do it) and those points could be put to much better use elsewhere, say by taking 3 more kommandos.

The wording of the shokk attack gun rule in my iBooks version of the codex says "roll for strength before you fire," so it depends whether you read "before you fire" to mean "before making a shooting attack" (ie, at the beginning of the shooting sequence) or "before you roll to hit for that weapon". For the sake of consistency with similar rules, I would read it as "before you roll to hit" (but after you designate a target).

 office_waaagh wrote:
I think you're going to need some morale control for the grots...that unit of 30 is going to melt. Otherwise I expect your big problem is going to be the 24 inch range on those tankbustas.

Worth considering that Tankbustas already get full rerolls to hit when shooting vehicles, so the Bad Moons Kultur doesn't do a whole lot for them, whereas the Evil Sunz Kultur will let them fire at full BS if they advance and give them a larger threat radius. Downside is they lose access to the double-shoot stratagem, so depends what you want more out of them.

I guess my other main comment is that if you fought a mirror match against your own list except with the tankbustas swapped out for lootas, you'd get wrecked. 425 points is a lot to sink into such a niche unit. Some ranged anti-horde would go a long way.

All in all, I like this list. You've been very disciplined with unit selection, there's nothing here for your opponent's anti-armour assets to sink their teeth into, and nothing you're doing is terribly CP dependent leaving you with flexibility to use them where they're needed. The "effectively 4++" grots can control the field with a little morale support, leaving the Boyz free to run amok, grab objectives, and beat up on targets of opportunity. Ideally 90 Boyz moving an average 10.5" per turn and jumping around the board will put enough pressure on your opponent that your grot horde can control the mid-table relatively unmolested.

Ya your right on the morale issue. I spose I could just make my warboss badmoonz since he was just gonna chill with the blob until he had an opening to charge something juicy, and by then I'd probably be close enough where the extra movement wouldn't make much difference. Otherwise I'll probably just drop a smasha and bc off a nob and add a runtherd.

Tankbustas I'm definitely keeping bad moonz since 50 rokkits >>>> extra 2" and I can always use extra dakka to negate the penalty for the 1-2 times I'll have to advance and shoot them. Also nice to have reroll 1's for when I'm not shooting a vehicle. But ya if I was just running a normal busta squad I could see some use in using evil sunz.

A mirror matchup with loota star I think would be more decided by who got first turn, but if they got first turn then I agree I would 100% get rekt. Overall I don't think my list is the end all be all for competitive orks. Frankly the mere existence of the Vect stratagem makes any grot shield dependent list fold, I mostly just like the idea of shooting 50 rokkits at stuff every turn (especially if I was going against knight player). Personally, I think a slightly modified version of green tide is still the best TAC list orks can bring right now.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont own a chinork but i hear a lot of praise for the thing.

Chinork is easy: truck + two deff kopta, - wheels. Rearrange pert to suit.