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tneva82 wrote:


And then you lose against non knights with that tank busta skew list.

And da jump is not reliable way to bring skar boyz into combat...


And 180 boyz was hard to remove start of 8th ed. These days non optimized gunlines remove 60/turn. Bring anti horde army and 100 boyz is reasonable casualty rate.

Tankbustas are a great unit against almost any army, though, not just Knights. About the only thing they're not excellent against is Monstrous Creatures, and even then we're still rerolling 1s and they're still pretty darned good.
Why is Da Jump not reliable? It's only about a 55% chance of getting the roll with 'Ere We Go, but that's 55% that can't really be avoided and it happens every turn like clockwork unless your opponent has one of those 4+ Ignore the Power strategems.

I'm also skeptical of your numbers for horde removal. I'm not seeing many "Non optimized" gunlines that can actually do what you're talking about, at least not until a turn or two has gone by, all their guns are in rapid fire range, they've got ideal line of sight for everything... Basically, the only armies I'm seeing that match your numbers are ones that are playing in a vacuum under ideal circumstances. I'd like to actually see what kind of lists you're talking about, because it sounds like you're heavily exaggerating to make your point sound better.

Tank bustas are rather specialized in that it is mainly good against tough vehicles. Lootas are much more all around.

And da jump is 55% plus chance of failing da jump. That is NOT automatic either as number of failures I have had(and simple element school math) shows. And 55% is NOT reliable. It's 50-50.

And even before codex 60 model/turn was fairly typical even without particular optimization(lousy dark lances over superior disintegrator guns that are better vs tanks AND hordes etc). And after codex came out other armies have got BOOST to their damage output while orks became softer...

And then we hit into skew lists like the 2 repulsor list I ran into in 1750 pts that killed in T1 70 grots(60 of them by grot screen so T4), 21 boyz and 15 lootas. That's 106 models. And even THAT wasn't optimized for horde clearing(there was even nastier one around that I dodged). Luckily that's getting scew list but when 60/turn isn't that hard to get(especially since armies have gotten boost to firepower after ork codex came out) and orks have got softer idea that you can simply hold out by survivability...is pipe dream.

You need to do what every army do. Alpha strike them. You need to do significant damage T1. T2 you need to be mopping up. GW has made 8th ed be game of alpha strike. If your T1 is walking around skarboyz forward without doing damage you lost.

barontuman wrote:
Having played the new Speedfreek/buggy vehicles, I'm not impressed. Thanks to some generous family, I've got one of each, but each time I field them, I'm underwhelmed.

First is the cost. 100-120 points is a lot of the number of shots that they deliver, and their huge base makes it hard for the rest of the army to maneuver.

I've accompanied them with Bikerz, lootaz, tankbustaz, boyz, grotz, MANZ, and smashagunz in various combinations.

So.... am I missing something? Are they a unit where fielding 3 of one type makes them better? Is there a stratagem that I'm not considering? I really want to like them, but I'm finding it difficult to justify a place in the list for them.

They are indeed underwhelming for points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for knights, i haven't had much problems vs knights after the codex. Running a regular list: 60 boyz, 10 meganobz, smashas, grots, biker boss with killa klaw and 2 wierdboyz. That's the core. Costs around 1100-1150 pts. Than i often take a painboy, kommandoes or simply more boyz and grots. Sometimes koptas but they're not amazing.

Knights don't do enough damage. If they move up the field, just focus 1-2 down with klaws and smites. Klaw boss with a wierdboy buff can halve a knight. So can 10 meganobz. And they can get to fight twice with strategems. If knights play defensively, i just score and focus on killing one knight early on. They won't get the time to earn enough cp later on.

I second koooaei, against knights go full green tides with some armored tellyported units like a bonebreaka or meganobz. A few mek gunz maybe.

Banosby wrote:
The following is a big ask, I know, but if anyone has any suggestions you'd be doing an old Ork player a favor. A friend of mine is getting back into the game after several years (5th edition, more or less) and I told him I'd help him put together a list for an upcoming 2000 point tournament. Problem is, I play Sisters and don't know the first thing about Orks, other than Lootas can mob up and shoot things well and you have a wizard guy that jumps squads around the board. Anyhow, the following is roughly what he has, although he has time to paint up a few new things before the tournament as needed.
“Snip”
Thanks in advance!

Hi B,

The good thing about the new Codex is that everything is now an option, but the final choices depend on how badly your Skumgrod wants to win Without going into nit-pick territory, plan for losing lots of models (damage output is up this edition) and consider Mek Gunz for a useful addition to the list of available units.

Cheers,

M

tneva82 wrote:
Tank bustas are rather specialized in that it is mainly good against tough vehicles. Lootas are much more all around.

And da jump is 55% plus chance of failing da jump. That is NOT automatic either as number of failures I have had(and simple element school math) shows. And 55% is NOT reliable. It's 50-50.

And even before codex 60 model/turn was fairly typical even without particular optimization(lousy dark lances over superior disintegrator guns that are better vs tanks AND hordes etc). And after codex came out other armies have got BOOST to their damage output while orks became softer...

And then we hit into skew lists like the 2 repulsor list I ran into in 1750 pts that killed in T1 70 grots(60 of them by grot screen so T4), 21 boyz and 15 lootas. That's 106 models. And even THAT wasn't optimized for horde clearing(there was even nastier one around that I dodged). Luckily that's getting scew list but when 60/turn isn't that hard to get(especially since armies have gotten boost to firepower after ork codex came out) and orks have got softer idea that you can simply hold out by survivability...is pipe dream.

You need to do what every army do. Alpha strike them. You need to do significant damage T1. T2 you need to be mopping up. GW has made 8th ed be game of alpha strike. If your T1 is walking around skarboyz forward without doing damage you lost.

Lootas are better against infantry and elite infantry, Tankbustas are better against all vehicles and most high toughness targets.

It's going to be a 4+ roll to pass Da Jump, which is an 11/12 chance of passing without using rerolls. Throw in the Skorched Gitbonez and you've got a 35/36 chance of passing. Add a Command Point to reroll and we're looking at a 1/216 chance of failure. And I never said that 'Ere We Go was a reliable way to make it into combat every turn - It's a reliable way to move quickly and harass your opponent. (Also, I find it funny you said, ("55% is 50/50". It's not. It's 55/45.)

You keep insisting on this incredible damage output that everyone can apparently do, but what are the lists? How are they managing this? The only thing you've mentioned so far is "Twin repulsors", which is less tham a third of 1750 points and can't themselves put out anti-infantry fire as efficiently as you're claiming, so what was the magic bullet in this list? Or did they just roll really well and you're using your own bad luck as proof that hordes aren't durable?

Ran up against wolves today. After non/stop having lootas was craving change of pace if for nothing else than the god awful amount of dice rolling! Especially I have generally less than 3h to play including setting up and packing ready to leave...So went for more speedy h2h styled list.



So basic plan was nob and warlord loaded bonecrusha and trike head the charge, evil suns(originally was intending 30+10 but then realized would leave me with one unit for endless tide and one unit is fairly easy to wipe completely. With 2 increases odds of using that strategem) da jumped forward and skarboyz either da jumping T2 or coming in deep strike. I opted to go for reliable deep strike along with warboss.

Opponent was the guy I have been playing many times. He has generally very casual wolves with heavy shooty elements. He had big guy on wolf(new addition I think), runepriestx2(one with termi armour), 2 units of grey hunters(one in rhino), one unit of blood claws in rhino, big 8 or so terminators of h2h goodyness and shields and big unit of wolves with bazillion h2h weapons and at least few storm shields. Also 2 units of long fangs with several lascannons, missile launchers and 3 plasma cannons.

We played standard 3 card a turn maelstrom with old style deployment/first turn(he wasn't familiar with new one).

Fairly low on terrain for my standards but fair enough. I had nice LOS blocking corner for evil suns and got so that both long fangs couldn't concentrate on one wagon. He got first turn without even needing the +1 for the roll. Termies, including runepriest, and wolven in reserve.

Wolf T1:

He came forward and caused hefty amount of wounds for both wagons. Good for me bonebreaka was still on best conditions barely. As he was firing rhino he declared to grots. I pointed he could have tried getting that 1 wound to bonebreaka pointing out it was on verge of degrading and allowing to hits to stand but he declined. Well didn't get degraded but as it is this DID get last of grots from that unit die to morale giving first blood so wasn't without payoff. 2 hits needing 6+ and me having 4+ save would be pretty unlikely to work(15%) but effect could be big.

Orks 1:

Well I didn't really need advance+charge with wagon and trike but charged anyway. Wagon to rhino, trike to grey hunters. On left wounded wagon limped forward trying to get LOS to other rhino. Not much else except grots took some objectives(scored 1). Psychic weirdboy propels evil sun boyz into his left flank(my POV) near long fang squad with 3 plasma cannons. Shooting. Tank bustas score 3 damage to rhino. That was bad. Scored only 3 wounds and he passed two 5+ saves. SAG fails utterly. Badruk fires at rhino as well and scores another 3 wounds. Humm...Was hoping for better. Assault. Bonebreaka rams into the rhino(good thing overwatch failed). I left it with 4 wounds. Trying to ensure I have clear room to move next turn if need be I boarding acted(btw would the warboss count here for having charged for sake of brutal&kunning?) but only caused 2 more wounds. Killa kaw warlord, 4 big choppa, 1 power klaw and 6 choppa attack and that's it. BLEARGH! Trike guy killed few guys taking some damage in return. Oh and evil sun boyz failed the charge...I think I have worst evil sun boyz ever. Those 78% charges keep failing.

Wolf T2:

Still fairly little. Wolf lord moved toward center and got hefty bodyguard of terminators around. Wolf priest went to my corner with weirdboy where he barely fitted to get behind the enemy lines. Grey hunters came out of rhino and moved around but curiously didn't make any move to charge trike. Huh? Rhino fell back and elsewhere rhino, after disembarking blood claws who also were oddly cautious about moving into center with bazillion grots O_o, went toward evil sun boyz. Uh oh. I knew what was about to happen...Rhino charge!

Psychic he mortaled my weirdboy a bit. Shooting and he blew out both wagons. I lost few tank bustas and 2 nobz who took up 3+ save in return disembarking toward terminator/bloodclaw/wolf lord area. Rhino charged into evil suns tagging them into combat. Bugger.

Ork T2:

Time for charges. Warboss headed toward wolfie lord with nobz heading at blood claws. This might not actually be smart idea due to terminators out there but then again where to go? To right flank? Basically leaves center entirely for him. I SHOULD have brought goffs here to maybe charge terminators(maybe they can do that...If they do that 58% charge). Instead I just stupidly brought warboss to right to charge grey hunters alone. Yep yep. Like that's going to work. Tank bustas had no LOS to much. Maybe could have hunted for rhino if evil suns fall back but instead moved toward the rune priest. I had to go closer due to character rule protecting due to terminators on opposite direction behind LOS blocking terrain. LOL! Anyway psychic I tried to smite at the runepriest who dispelled with ease. Tank bustas got 1 past inv saves. SAG finished off rhino, Badruk dropped blood claw or two.

Then charges. Warlord charged into wolf lord. Forgot to declare terminators(well saved overwatch at least) so after causing whopping 12 wounds past inv save couldn't do anything else. I forget this always. Nobz, with their 12 WS2+ S7 -1 attacks, 3 WS3+, S10 -3 attacks and 11 2+/S5 attacks simply ran over the blood claws. Only problem here is I did what I usually do and forgot to cover character from shooting...Drat.

Evil suns cleared the rhino no problemo. Goff warboss charged, killed 1, died, used strategem to fight once more and killed 1. Yep yep. Worthy usage of him. Idiot!

Trike finished off his grey hunters with 1 wound left.

And then the most epic moment of turn. Weirdboy charged! WAAAAAAGH and hope like hell he can get one wound past save to kill that runic priest. Alas that failed but survived alive at least.

This turn I got pile of vp's from killing 3 unit in combat(2), defend objective(he couldn't get it from me realistically) and another 2 vp from controlling 3 objectives.

Wolf T3:

Wolverine wannabes appeared next to evil suns. Terminators stood still for some reason. Not much else move. Magic he smited my weirdboy dead. Shot couple tank bustas and then charged killing few more and dying in return. Rest of shooting killed trike and killed couple nobz. 3+ isn't much use when lascannon hits you in the head! Warlord died to 3 overcharging plasma cannons. Poof. Terminators then charged nobz which was semi surprise. The way he had stayed put led me thinking he was trying to get the defend objective and charge grots to clear that. Now he risked longer charge than if he had moved. Maybe he wanted to see result of shooting toward nobz first and with that failing opted to go there after all? Anyway nobz stood not a bloody chance. Wolverines made the 9" charge with ease and minced through big pile of them. I struct killing 1. I fought again and killed another. Used CP's to auto pass morale.

Orks T3:

Not much movement except goffs that came toward center where grots were making partial roadblock toward terminators(didn't even TRY charge here. IF I fail I'm sooooo toasted. Now if they want he needs to get long roll and huge to get all into combat) and evil suns that came back alive. I COULD have played it smart and safe and go to my right flank on his DZ, score behind enemy lines, charge(hopefully) last grey hunter block and avoid the wolverines...But ah what the hell. BLOOD! KILL! Let's see how they take 30 orks. I could deploy nice quarter circle allowing loooots of models into combat if I make it.

Shooting. Not much. LOS is giving headache. SAG is failing as usual. Combat. Evil suns...Fail. Bugger. 78% failed again. And with 2 previous tournaments having several big charges fail like that it sucks.

Wolf T4:

He didn't have much help with cards. Here he IMO did his biggest mistake and sent terminators toward the evil suns along the wolverines. Too much stuff there on flank with only one measily objective which isn't even being cleared with that(grots have it). Grey hunters moved toward center. Termies and long fang squad shot at evil suns killing them in droves(can't be too safe eh?). Termies charged(he needed to use CP reroll. I pointed out tactical hint for future that in cases like this also charge the weak unit closer(grots in objective in this case) to give backup target if the prime target fails) as did wolverines. Well to make story short that's entire unit wiped off before they got to strike...

Orks T4:

Another defend around that grey hunter squad. Well goffs moved around there but due to long distance(no warboss for advance and assault. Idiot sacrificing warboss for nothing) only 10 got into combat. But 40 S5 attacks was enough anyway. On left I put grot wall front of termies and wolverines basically stopping them in place. Tank bustas, badruk and SAG all combined to kill I think 4 terminators. Well SAG TRIED. Got very respectable 4 S9 attacks. Then failed to hit anything....

With this opponent suggested calling it off. We checked vp's and found out I was comfortably 12-5 lead. Neither had much damage potential left anymore. His termies and wolverines would be scything through 10 grot units at a time, goffs would be struggling to reach anything worthwhile, I had several grots units still to hold objectives. Yeah good time to call it off. Though maybe we should have checked what cards he would get. If they would be awesome like 3 easy 2 vp ones(not sure what he could get for that but who knows...2 times defend same place that's off the reach for me and something else maybe) and it could be race.

Time to build me some deff dreads, the question is what to put on their arms? I'm not using the GW models and with the chassis I'm looting It would be easier to build at least 2 shooty weapons each, but I'm sure I can find a way to go all stabby all the time if that's really what they need.

Is there any benefit to mixing weapon types, either on a single dredd (2 klaws 2 rokkits?) or within a wing of 3 (one all-stabby, one all-shooty, and one mixed?)?

thanks!

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Time to build me some deff dreads, the question is what to put on their arms? I'm not using the GW models and with the chassis I'm looting It would be easier to build at least 2 shooty weapons each, but I'm sure I can find a way to go all stabby all the time if that's really what they need.

Is there any benefit to mixing weapon types, either on a single dredd (2 klaws 2 rokkits?) or within a wing of 3 (one all-stabby, one all-shooty, and one mixed?)?

thanks!

They're bad shots, so I'm not convinced shooty is a good option, even if you were already e.g. going Bad Moons Clan or using some strategem with shooty bonuses. (Although I know someone who has great fun with a 4 Kustom Mega-blasta dredd.)

Most players I've seen run them either 2 klaws and 2 saws, or 2 klaws and 1 saw and 1 skorcha (to help against tarpitting by hordes, and it autohits).

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Time to build me some deff dreads, the question is what to put on their arms? I'm not using the GW models and with the chassis I'm looting It would be easier to build at least 2 shooty weapons each, but I'm sure I can find a way to go all stabby all the time if that's really what they need.

Is there any benefit to mixing weapon types, either on a single dredd (2 klaws 2 rokkits?) or within a wing of 3 (one all-stabby, one all-shooty, and one mixed?)?

thanks!

Pretty much only shooty ones worth a damn would be dethskull ones with 2-4 megablastas. With 2-3 being sweet spot likely. You have only 1 reroll so 4 isn't that useful plus with at least 1 klaw you get 3 good cc attacks vs 2 duh ones.

Most efficient is evil sun ones with 4 ccw ones though. Pair of them in ds can be nice way to remove tough targets

Unfortunatly dreads are kinda monobuild. Only real variance is the 4th klaw, or a skorcha.
It might have been a good shooty platform if the klaws were ~5pts more and the base cost of the dread dropped ~5pts respectively. Klaws are oddly cheap for how mean they are, but the guns arent much cheaper for more of an insult than a shooting attack.
Deffdredd toting 4 bigshootas for something silly like 50pts might have been worth it but thats not the case.

That being said, they arent bad. One of the bigger things about the 8th codex that excites me is WALKERS ARE GOOD AGAIN or atleast good enough to not be a hindrance.

My favorite loadout for deff dreads is full CC, either 4 klaws or 3-2 klaws and 1-2 saws. Shooting isn't rewarding with BS5+ even with a re-roll. And a skorcha is 17 points, definitely too much for a weapon that can't even fire in first turn.

In my experience deff dreads rarely survive their first turn. People don't like having murder-bots in their backfield and all melta guns, krak grenades and other odd anti-tank weapons will be in range. A skorcha is just paying 7 points to lose an attack.

For the record with 2 KMB in death skull you have roughly 70% chance of scoring at least 1 hit. With 3 you are looking at 80% chance.

 Jidmah wrote:
In my experience deff dreads rarely survive their first turn. People don't like having murder-bots in their backfield and all melta guns, krak grenades and other odd anti-tank weapons will be in range. A skorcha is just paying 7 points to lose an attack.

I agree, that's why I'd only play at their cheapest loadout, which is the full CC set up and only deployed by tellyporta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
For the record with 2 KMB in death skull you have roughly 70% chance of scoring at least 1 hit. With 3 you are looking at 80% chance.

True, but does a single KMB hit worth 90ish points?

 Blackie wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
For the record with 2 KMB in death skull you have roughly 70% chance of scoring at least 1 hit. With 3 you are looking at 80% chance.

True, but does a single KMB hit worth 90ish points?

That's another thing. Though keep in mind you aren't paying just for that but also the 3-4 h2h attacks. Of course if you are just planning of sitting back shooting it's never going to work out. For that you take dedicated shooty units. Here we are talking about unit that has both h2h and shooty potential so you should be aiming to use both.

Hi all. I know this has probably been answered before but I just can’t find it. When do lootas declare the unit they target? Before number of shots is generated or after?
Thanks

Hogiebear wrote:
Hi all. I know this has probably been answered before but I just can’t find it. When do lootas declare the unit they target? Before number of shots is generated or after?
Thanks

After. Also keep in mind in similar note if you fire again with bad moon strategem shots stay the same.

Thanks for that.

Do you mean that if I use the bad moons strat I have to keep the same target and I can’t pick a new one?

Thanks

Hogiebear wrote:
Thanks for that.

Do you mean that if I use the bad moons strat I have to keep the same target and I can’t pick a new one?

Thanks

You can pick a new one, just the number of shots stay the same.

Hogiebear wrote:
Thanks for that.

Do you mean that if I use the bad moons strat I have to keep the same target and I can’t pick a new one?

Thanks

No i mean if you got 1 for shots it's 1 when shooting with strategem and if you rolled 3 you get 3 per loota. Target can be same and remember you can split targets as well.

Typically when a unit rolls for number of shots they roll per model per attack.
Lootas are the oddball, for some reason their weapon is still the way it was before random shots were common. They roll a single die and it stays for the shooting phase. So if they roll a 3 and you use the Bad Moonz trait, they still shoot 3 shots each.

Its great that the timing is AFTER you know what that result is, so no wasting cp on a 1 shot....

Am I mistaken or do we have to declare More Dakka before rolling for the number of hits though? I never play Badmoonz, but I wanted to try more Dakka a few times and the way I read it that one is declared before the number of shots is decided.

 Castozor wrote:
Am I mistaken or do we have to declare More Dakka before rolling for the number of hits though? I never play Badmoonz, but I wanted to try more Dakka a few times and the way I read it that one is declared before the number of shots is decided.

Technically yes.

More Dakka is before they shoot, the D3 for Loota guns is "when it fires" so you could sort of argue theyre the same timing (both are "before you actually roll to hit") but since its not the same wording its not the same timing.
However if you pop the Bad Moonz one to fire twice you already know what the number of shots are so you could fire at something w/o negatives and if you get a 3 then burn the CP to More Dakka the other target with the negatives (since they arent bound to firing at the same thing)

Thanks for the answer, but it leads me to something else. Are you suggesting More Dakka is only worth it when firing at hard to hit targets? So far I've been using it to sqeeuze out more shots with the 5's rather than using it to boost my BS.

That was the general intent of it imo is to middle finger neg to hit users.

Yeah it adds more hits but...not THAT many more hits. I think ive used it once so far

 Castozor wrote:
Thanks for the answer, but it leads me to something else. Are you suggesting More Dakka is only worth it when firing at hard to hit targets? So far I've been using it to sqeeuze out more shots with the 5's rather than using it to boost my BS.

Well if you are hitting on 5+ that will result in 16% more hits in average so question is do you feel 16% hits is worth 2 CP? I would say not always. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes less so.

For me the big thing about that is enabling them to be da jumped around to ensure I have LOS. We have enough LOS blocking that it's fairly trivial to ensure opponent doesn't get LOS to key units without moving. Does make grot screens bit trickier which is why I use often 2x30+10 grots as minimum.

Don't let the glass 16% full crowd fool you.. Moar dakka! adds 100% more extra shots to your results.

 Rismonite wrote:
Don't let the glass 16% full crowd fool you.. Moar dakka! adds 100% more extra shots to your results.

But only 16% hits. 15 bad moon lootas go from average 13.935 hits to 16.2037 hits with more dakka. From 16,2553 to 18.9 if you always use command reroll to reroll 1 on number of shots(which bumps average shots from 2 to 2.333).

So there you are looking at around 2 hits more. Is that worth 2 CP?

Using Moar Dakka on stationary Lootaz ain't really optimal. Using it on mobile Lootaz is great though. That said, it's pretty easy to get 15+ CP, and most games are settled by T3, so using it every turn probably ain't gonna hurt ya.