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Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.

The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....

I always thought it was a matter of balancing HQ taxes. Will those extra weirdboys, warbosses and bigmeks be useful? Is it worth the 100pts spent on them. Does it throw your plans out or give away easy ITC mission points?

Just a shame our characters don't give out better passive buffs. I'd love if the regular mekboys were pointed up a bit and gave a re-roll of 1 to wound in shooting.

Would make more sense to add to the roll than reroll for orks imo.

But thats also stepping on imperial toes. I actually dont mind that our HQs arent buffbots, it means im not trying to keep my entire army in one bubble.

The only problem HQ wise is if you arent allowed index then their uses are limited, and its rough to justify a tactic if you have no HQs that also do that tactic. Weirdboyz are almost universally awesome but if youre in a speedfreak list they need a transport AND really wont do much other than Fists of Gork the trike/boss and smite.

If allowed index, i think our HQs are fine. Though i wouldnt mind a generic jumppack hq so we can have a boss guy go with stormboyz that arent goffs for once.

cody.d. wrote:
Just a shame our characters don't give out better passive buffs. I'd love if the regular mekboys were pointed up a bit and gave a re-roll of 1 to wound in shooting.

GAAAAH! Please no more rerolls! Bad moons already was the thing I most dreaded about. Rerolls. 8th ed has too many rerolls. You roll tons of dice, then reroll tons and with orks not even much effect. Bad moon shoota mob fires. 60 dice. Rerolls 10 dice, gets extra 10 shots which results in 1-2 rerolls more. End result is you roll total of 81-82 shots...From one unit. Results about 26 hits and 4 dead space marines. Okay pretty nice but that's lots of dice rolling from one unit.

With lootas you are often literally shooting 100+ dice.

Wish GW would come up with buffs that aren't just rerolls. 8th ed takes more time per turn than I have ever had from any edition. Maybe 1st edition was even slower.

Rerolls are indeed the last thing this edition needs more of. Meks could've been given an ability where wound rolls (in some sort of aura) of unmodified 6's are resolved with an additional AP though.

Or an ability where they choose a vehicle with 6" and each dakkadakkadakka roll results in 2 extra shots instead of 1.

Or that you choose a vehicle within 6" and wound rolls of unmodified 6's are resolved with an additional damage.

Or that you choose a vehicle within 6" and you get to roll an additonal d6 and picking the highest when determining the amount of shots it gets on random amount of shots weapons

There are plenty of buffs that support characters could be handing out, I really wish they'd explore that a bit more

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.

The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....

I'm running fully mechanized lists most of the time, just put some gretchin in there and you got your CP. Hiding them on objectives goes a long way towards winning games.

A list I have ran recently looked like this:

HQ
Warboss on Bike
Deffkilla Wartrike
SAG Mek

6x 10 Gretchin

10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
1 Mek with KMB and ammo runt

Shokkjump Dragsta
Kustom Boosta Blasta
12 Bikers /w PK Nob

Bonekrusha
Bonekrusha
Morkanaut (Mek goes here)

Sums up to 2000 points and looks and feels a lot like a Mad Max army. Works decent in my mono-codex meta, but don't expect to win tournament games with it.

Why is SAG mek going in morkanaut where he can't shoot? Put him in safe location and shoot away.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.

The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....

I'm running fully mechanized lists most of the time, just put some gretchin in there and you got your CP. Hiding them on objectives goes a long way towards winning games.

A list I have ran recently looked like this:

HQ
Warboss on Bike
Deffkilla Wartrike
SAG Mek

6x 10 Gretchin

10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
1 Mek with KMB and ammo runt

Shokkjump Dragsta
Kustom Boosta Blasta
12 Bikers /w PK Nob

Bonekrusha
Bonekrusha
Morkanaut (Mek goes here)

Sums up to 2000 points and looks and feels a lot like a Mad Max army. Works decent in my mono-codex meta, but don't expect to win tournament games with it.

Mono Deffskullz right? I can spot a deffskull army when I see it.. you want dem rerolls right?

Freebootaz and Deffskullz are best Mono Kultur lists

tneva82 wrote:
Why is SAG mek going in morkanaut where he can't shoot? Put him in safe location and shoot away.

Think he means the baby mek

 Rismonite wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.

The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....

I'm running fully mechanized lists most of the time, just put some gretchin in there and you got your CP. Hiding them on objectives goes a long way towards winning games.

A list I have ran recently looked like this:

HQ
Warboss on Bike
Deffkilla Wartrike
SAG Mek

6x 10 Gretchin

10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
10 Nobz /w 5 BC and ammo runts
1 Mek with KMB and ammo runt

Shokkjump Dragsta
Kustom Boosta Blasta
12 Bikers /w PK Nob

Bonekrusha
Bonekrusha
Morkanaut (Mek goes here)

Sums up to 2000 points and looks and feels a lot like a Mad Max army. Works decent in my mono-codex meta, but don't expect to win tournament games with it.

Mono Deffskullz right? I can spot a deffskull army when I see it.. you want dem rerolls right?

Freebootaz and Deffskullz are best Mono Kultur lists

Blood Axes actually. I'm in a weird group of people where we build our armies from a single codex and play them with the cultures they are painted as

If I could choose, deff skulls or evil suns would probably both work fine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Why is SAG mek going in morkanaut where he can't shoot? Put him in safe location and shoot away.

There is a mek and a big mek in the list. The SAG sat on a ruin, with gretchin all over the place and the entire army racing towards the enemy lines it didn't get any trouble. You can probably replace him with a more useful HQ, I just like playing him.
The small mek jumped out turn 2 and repaired some wounds on the naut and later a buggy. He's basically just elite slot filler. As evil suns you can probably have him wear the redder armor.

Do you deepstrike anything in that list Jidmah? I'd be interested in playing a list like that except with some Deff Dreads as well. Any pointers on how your games generally go?

No deep strikes, I'm wasting most of my CP on protecting the bikes, ramming, looting destroyed vehicles or boss/trike fighting again after death or nobz fighting twice, more relics (klaw, finkin' cap, snazz trike) and the kult of speed detachment.

The two games I had with that list was a crushing win against harlequins and a close loss against sisters (couldn't stop St. Celestine from rampaging through my gretchin and taking my objective). It's fun to play - more fun than green tide anyways - but will probably fold like wet paper if your enemy list has something that must be removed ASAP - like a knight, helverines, a daemon primarch and so on.
This party starts turn 2, too late for any kind of really competitive gaming.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Is there any point in orks using non-brigade/battalion detachments? Other than Command for the Super w/ Kulture anyway.

The insane difference in CP generation kinda steers me away from them. Why a Brigade is 5CP but a Spearhead is 1 is beyond me when most armies can fill a Brigade minimum for roughly the same price as a Spearhead minimum.
Im half tempted to try a full mechanized list, as in no boyz/grotz period. Only things "on foot" would be meks or tankbustas inside the vehicle. But that CP difference....

I often run an elite detachment with meganobz, painboy and kommandees. Helps save pts on an extra hq that i don't really need and 90 pt of grots. But that's for <= 1500 games. We run out of cp really fast. 2 to deepstrike manz, 3 to greentide, 3 to fight again and 1 just in case. Sure, some extra cp would be great but there's not always enough points for a batallion.

i dont even know how people can fill a battalion even at 2k.
I always feel like im bringing something i shouldnt be using because of the mandated 3 FA/Elite/Heavy/6Troop part. Or unable to use something i really want/need because then i cant get another to fill the slot requirement

Ive done it, but it felt like such a haphazard list....didnt even play with it because it felt so wonky lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont even know how people can fill a battalion even at 2k.
I always feel like im bringing something i shouldnt be using because of the mandated 3 FA/Elite/Heavy/6Troop part. Or unable to use something i really want/need because then i cant get another to fill the slot requirement

Ive done it, but it felt like such a haphazard list....didnt even play with it because it felt so wonky lol

You mean brigade. A battalion is 2HQs and 3 troops.

I bring a brigade at 1750, anything less than that I find that I'm really pushing it for those CPs, it's probably worth doing but I don't want to. FA I always fill since I play speed freeks but usually I only want 1-2 Elites and 2 Heavy support. Bringing extra mek gunz is easy but I don't like bringing orks that aren't in transports so unless I'm taking a gakload of Nobz then I find elites to be tough slots to fill. 6 groups of grots are okay but I really hate being "forced" to do it.

Derp yeah for some reason i get them backwards from time to time.

And yeah Elites are usually my problem. I only own 1 mek gun but i tend to run walkers alot, problem is when you run walkers you have no wagons so no nobz/tankbustas and who in their right flippin' mind would run bad moonz kommandos? lol

Minimeks can heal the walkers true but 1 hp per turn doesnt mean jack. Besides the walkers either arent even shot at or blow up anyway, cept the 'naut

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont even know how people can fill a battalion even at 2k.
I always feel like im bringing something i shouldnt be using because of the mandated 3 FA/Elite/Heavy/6Troop part. Or unable to use something i really want/need because then i cant get another to fill the slot requirement

Ive done it, but it felt like such a haphazard list....didnt even play with it because it felt so wonky lol

It depends on the clan actually. Deathskulls can field good ones since they can use cheap but effective elites and FA. Something like:

Big mek with SAG
Warboss
Weirdboy
3x30 Boyz, each unit with a pk and 1 rokkit
3x10 Gretchins
2x Meks with KMB
Painboy
3x Deffkopta with KMB
3x3 Smasha gunz

It's just 1540 points with no useless units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Derp yeah for some reason i get them backwards from time to time.

And yeah Elites are usually my problem. I only own 1 mek gun but i tend to run walkers alot, problem is when you run walkers you have no wagons so no nobz/tankbustas and who in their right flippin' mind would run bad moonz kommandos? lol

Minimeks can heal the walkers true but 1 hp per turn doesnt mean jack. Besides the walkers either arent even shot at or blow up anyway, cept the 'naut

Mine are usually FA. Only 39 points koptas with KMB and the deathskull kultur seem to be fine in all the brigades I've tried. Min squads of stormboyz aren't that good, bikes and buggies are expensive. Koptas without the kultur bonus don't do much for their price. Elites are the second problem but tankbustas, kommandos, painboy and nobz do with all the kultures, while banner nob, meganobz and meks with KMB can also be good under the appropriate clan. Tankbustas can be deployed by tellyporta or screened by tons of gretchins, while bad moons kommandos aren't that good of course but bad moons can't really field effective brigades as their kultur is useful only on a few units. If you really want to be full bad moons those kommandos aren't even terrible though as a 40 points unit that arrives in deep strike to grab an objective or harass the enemy backline can always be useful.

Problem with 2x battallions is that more than 3 HQs are actually unneeded, even the 4th one usually looks like a tax. That's why most of the times I'd rather field a brigade than 2x battallions, unless I really want two different kultur bonuses to expolit.

2000 point tournament, must be a single Batallion no more, no less. How does it effect the meta, and which way should Orks go?

First thought was to do a proppa Goff green tide list :


The idea is that any high strength, multi-wound shots are wasted on single wound models (except for the Smashas, which are too good not to include). Tactiks are simple and orky, run forward and smash stuff wif choppaz.

Thoughts?

Brigade requires 3 FA too. I think the cheapest FA is deffkopta w/ bigshoota, but is also hot garbage with said bigshoota.

Hence the problem i mentioned a moment ago about filling one. You are kinda forced to do two tactics or take a hefty tax in "useless units" to fill the brigade.

If youre going green tide, go double battalion. 2 less CP is worth not having units that dont support green tide. Dont discount weirdboyz, Da Jump and Warpath are disgusting on boyz.

@Vineheart01 Sorry, mistyped, it's a battalion, not brigade.

barontuman wrote:
2000 point, must be a single Batallion tournament, no more, no less. How does it effect the meta, and which way should Orks go?

First thought was to do a proppa Goff green tide list :

Spoiler:

Ghazghull Thrakka
Weirdboy
Big Mek w/ KFF
24 grotz
24 grotz
30 boyz Nob + BC
30 boyz Nob + BC
30 boyz Nob + BC
30 boyz Nob + BC
15 lootas
3 Smasha gunz
Nob with Waaagh banner
Nob with Waaagh banner
15 Kommandoz

1998 Points
86 Power
8 Command points

The idea is that any high strength, multi-wound shots are wasted on single wound models (except for the Smashas, which are too good not to include). Tactiks are simple and orky, run forward and smash stuff wif choppaz.

Thoughts?

I'd drop the KFF for a second weirdboy. You want da jump, fists of gork and warpath so giving up on one power is already painful, two will be too much. Add a painboy instead. I'd also bring just one banner nob, as one will be enough for buffing all the footslogging dudes since you may want to teleport one mob per turn, and I'd field a couple of min squads of kommandos instead of a max one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Brigade requires 3 FA too. I think the cheapest FA is deffkopta w/ bigshoota, but is also hot garbage with said bigshoota.

It's actually the KMB version, 1pt cheaper than the twin big shoota one.

Yeah, but the KMB version is Index-only isn't it? And also conversions..

So if you don't already have those models and you want to throw a couple in your lists, magnetize. Who knows when they'll become illegal?

Pretty much unless you are playing tournament related rules, nobody cares if you use index stuff.

I think 1 weirdboy is fine, you can always use the Warphead stratagem to get da jump, and fist of gork. I think you will find Warppath to be excessive, especially with Ghaz + the goffs trait. I do think you should add a painboy if you can (dropping 1 banner would do the trick).

I don't really see why you would want min squad of kommandos....

 Geemoney wrote:
[spoiler]

I think 1 weirdboy is fine, you can always use the Warphead stratagem to get da jump, and fist of gork. I think you will find Warppath to be excessive, especially with Ghaz + the goffs trait. I do think you should add a painboy if you can (dropping 1 banner would do the trick).

I don't really see why you would want min squad of kommandos....

Excessive? I like the sounds of that! Actually I'm worried that I'll only end up with 1/4 of the boyz after the first turn against some armies and having a few boyz with an excessive amount of attacks would be a good thing.

I also think the full squad of kommandoz is more likely to succeed. Otherwise they will both charge the same unit and both be destroyed by overwatch.

Having 2 weirdboyz would be nice, but the KFF will give me 1/3 more boyz in the assault, which is hard to argue with.

How will having only 1 Waaagh banner with only 6" range cover 120 boyz? One unit is easily 6" all by itself. Are you assuming they will be interleaved? That'll slow down the movement phase horribly, and thus possibly cost me the game or sportsmanship if I have to move them one by one.

Thanks everyone for the replies, and please keep them coming!

I struggle to keep boyz inside auras over the course of the game just in general, so I don't worry about it past the first turn. I also don't use waagh banners for that reason. So don't know the answer to your question.

 Geemoney wrote:
I struggle to keep boyz inside auras over the course of the game just in general, so I don't worry about it past the first turn. I also don't use waagh banners for that reason. So don't know the answer to your question.

Mostly, I'm wondering about the concept in general. Is 150 boyz boyz and 48 grotz going to be even vaguely competitive?

Any guesses as to what this does to the Meta? No Knights, right? Will other armies go more toward infantry, and as such make a horde army more or less viable?

Hoping for some conjecture here.

Painboy/Boss aura is easy to keep in range because its not unit bound, its looking for models to apply it to a unit, not looking for an entire unit. Generally with that many boyz you might need multiple sources though. Might. Argument could be said that if your opponent ignores the ones the painboy/boss is around then they'll hit that much harder once they reach melee.

KFF aura is practically impossible to get more than 1 squad of boyz in, since the WHOLE UNIT has to be within 9" to get it. I usually flatout ignore KFFs with boyz now unless its my last squad or something.

Still dont get why the KFF is that way. To my knowledge its the ONLY rule that does that.

Units affected by a Waagh Banner don't need to be entirely within the aura to gain a benefit. The unit just has to have a single model within 6". If you place 4 30 Ork Mobz around it, it can benefit them all.

That said... You're probably not gonna have more than a Mob or two in CC close enough to all get the benefit anyway.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Derp yeah for some reason i get them backwards from time to time.

And yeah Elites are usually my problem. I only own 1 mek gun but i tend to run walkers alot, problem is when you run walkers you have no wagons so no nobz/tankbustas and who in their right flippin' mind would run bad moonz kommandos? lol

Minimeks can heal the walkers true but 1 hp per turn doesnt mean jack. Besides the walkers either arent even shot at or blow up anyway, cept the 'naut

For elite 3x5 kommando's for objective grapping is popular combo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Pretty much unless you are playing tournament related rules, nobody cares if you use index stuff.

Spending money on models you can't use all the time or even majority time is not fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

barontuman wrote:
2000 point tournament, must be a single Batallion no more, no less. How does it effect the meta, and which way should Orks go?

Issue will be orks are rather CP hungry. More than IG(which generate surplus CP on their own anyway) and eldar.

That's why I'm not fan of random global restrictions in tournaments. They mean good but hurt some armies more than others. And generally the broken good armies are the ones that survive such restrictions. Max 1 of each non-troop unit? Hah. Broken armies often laugh at such restrictions.

PiñaColada wrote:
Rerolls are indeed the last thing this edition needs more of. Meks could've been given an ability where wound rolls (in some sort of aura) of unmodified 6's are resolved with an additional AP though.

Or an ability where they choose a vehicle with 6" and each dakkadakkadakka roll results in 2 extra shots instead of 1.

Or that you choose a vehicle within 6" and wound rolls of unmodified 6's are resolved with an additional damage.

Or that you choose a vehicle within 6" and you get to roll an additonal d6 and picking the highest when determining the amount of shots it gets on random amount of shots weapons

There are plenty of buffs that support characters could be handing out, I really wish they'd explore that a bit more

All of them very valid ideas. I would argue that the rules made for the workshop are a tweak of what originaly the desgin team might been thinking the for the big mek. Then the piece of terrain came into and failed miserably to be meaningful.