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PiñaColada wrote:
Ugh, that's so much worse than I though it was. (I realize I'm just quoting the latest post and not the one explaining it all). The speed freeks detachment isn't worth it at all if you play evil sunz then. I can see the use of it if you play bad moons maybe, being able to move 28" and still fire on 5's, rerolling 1's. Especially if you don't have a warboss/deffkilla nearby, but these are niche cases. I've been using the dread waaagh detachment but solely for the use of the relic SAG. I really, really like the killa kan models but I hate that they can't have stratagems used on them/get kulturs. I really think grots should get diminished versions of the existing kulturs that they belong to. Something like:

Evil Sunz: Get +1" move
Bad Moons: Reroll 1's on their dakkadakkadakka sots (this one is tough, since Mek Gunz don't need a buff)
Snakesbites: Get a 6+ FnP if the shot fired is less than double the toughness of the unit and damage 1
Deffskullz: Get a 6++ invuln if the shot is lss than double the toughness of the unit and damage 1
Blood Axes: Get the cover bonus thing
Freebootas: They already sort of get the bonus by being able to trigger it
Goffs: Maybe the entire bonus since it's only good on killa kanz?

Just giving them something to actually make them feel like a part of the army. The little gribblies look up to the Orks so they should've picked up on some of their tricks. Also, killa kanz should be targetable by strats.

Yea the kult of speed is poor. Makes me regret buying Vigilus really.

I absolutely agree Killa Kans at least should get something like traits. They should also be able to have stratagems target them. As it stands they are too ham stringed by their lack of synergy.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's obviously "intended" to prevent morale losses to self destructing Squig Buggies. /s

GW not being able to write is not new.

True, I'm just gutted our speed frek list is even worse than I first thought.

Its actually useful.


The same specialist detachment has the 2d6" consolidate stratagem, using that stratagem you can spread out and potentially tie up a lot of other units. If you did not declare a charge against them, or even if you did but you threw all your attacks at your primary target, those other units can all hit you back.


If you are using a deffkilla wartrike for the advance+charge for the bikers, the deffkilla guy has no morale modification. This will allow you to weather some casualties from the return hits but then ignore morale issues.

Not amazing, but useful.

It's dire and now I've thought about it functionally useless.

Why are you using the 2CP consolidate stratagem to get your bikes into more trouble? Why are you putting your bikes in jeopardy at all? With their speed you should be able to pick the fights that suit them best. The return hits should do very little to you. You should be using the consolidation stratagem to tie up units that don't want to be in combat (so shouldn't do much return hitting either).

To mitigate morale losses (in both yours and your opponents turn) we actually already have a number of options. Warboss on bike (or not) breaking heads. An unit of 30-40 boys jumped up field within 6".

You reckon it's worth spending a CP to take this additional WL trait when we have so many other things to spend the CP on? I can't see it.

Oh I don't think it is good, or rather it is not a competitive option to use.

If someone wanted to play the speed waagh, and they wanted to use the consolidate stratagem, it could be useful. Speed waagh is all about the souble move stratagem, everything else is somewhat meh. Especially if for some reason they cannot take index units.

If your Speed Freekz need a double move to get to something (especially after the Evil Sunz +2 to Move/+1 Advance/+1 Charge) and the Biker Boss/Wartrike Move+Advance+Charge), you're playing on a huge board, or you have really poor positioning.

I have found the consolidate stratagem to be pure gold. If you roll average 6-8" you usually have no problems surrounding some nearby model, keeping your bikers safe from shooting. If you are running a wartrike getting the relic and the consolidate stratagem is nice.

Not game-breaking, but none of the vigilus stuff is.

So with orks being a favorite to win the LVO I thought it'd be fun if we guessed what the top performing ork list consists of. I think we can all assume the base of the list will have the usual loota bomb, grots, and few boyz squads so it's more or less guessing what the last 400 points or so will be used for. Here's my prediction:

Evil Sunz battalion detachment

HQ
Bikerboss - relic klaw
Biker Big mek - KFF

Troops
3x30 boyz - 10 shoota/20 choppa - nob w/ BC (1 unit in teleporta)

Elites
2x15 kommandos - 3 burna's - nob w/ BC
5 kommandos - burna

Badmoonz battalion detachment

HQ
Weirdboy - da jump
Weirdboy - warpath

Troops
3x10 grots

Heavy Support
15 lootas
10 lootas

Badmoonz battalion Dread Waaagh detachment

HQ
Big mek - da souped-up shokka
Weirdboy - Fist of Gork

Troops
3x10 grots

I think given the missions kommandos will generally be the best choice to fill the rest of the points because of their flexibility as well as not giving the enemy something juicy to point their expensive guns at. If I were to guess what the second highest unit being played after kommandos was it would probably be a MANZ unit coming out of a teleporta. The problem with MANZ though is you better be sure your getting your points worth in their first charge cause they're gonna be gone in the next shooting phase so I expect most of the top players like Nick Nanavati and Matt Root are gonna be running kommandos. I also heard on a podcast the other day that around 58% of the ork players are fielding the dread waaaagh detachment from Vigilus so da souped-up shokka I think will have pretty high representation in the top lists, which makes sense. It's basically a lottery ticket with the potential of nearly one shotting a knight, and with the lack of anything else in the list that can do serious damage (other than a bikerboss) I think players are gonna be using command re-rolls a lot to try and get 11+ strength on that thing.

Loota star has one lethal weakness for sake of tournament wins. Loota star is dead meat vs eldar soup. And guess what list is popular at tops? 25 t4 w1 6+ is ridic easy for eldars to shoot

 flaming tadpole wrote:
I also heard on a podcast the other day that around 58% of the ork players are fielding the dread waaaagh detachment from Vigilus so da souped-up shokka I think will have pretty high representation in the top lists, which makes sense. It's basically a lottery ticket with the potential of nearly one shotting a knight, and with the lack of anything else in the list that can do serious damage (other than a bikerboss) I think players are gonna be using command re-rolls a lot to try and get 11+ strength on that thing.

Da souped up shokka can one-shot a dominus class knight almost 8 times over. I'm surprised it's that popular of a detachment though, most people online seem to be meh on it, I personally love it and have been a staunch defender but I like the "fun" randomness it brings to the tabletop.

Overall I'd be really surprised if Orks win the LVO, the loota star is too easily countered and I'm just not sure if there's an Ork list that's as efficient of a TAC list like Eldar soup can bring. I'm guessing a very DE heavy space elf list will win. We'll see I guess but ITC have some rules oddities so my own personal experience won't be a 1to1 match with how that game works.

Will the new bolter rules be in effect for the LVO? I'm guessing it's too late for GSC codex but those guys will be something to watch out for later in the year I reckon.

Edit: If codex GSC are allowed then bringing a loota bomb is suicide, that tactic is just not viable if two armies (one established as strong and the other one certainly looking the part) can just negate grot shields.

PiñaColada wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
I also heard on a podcast the other day that around 58% of the ork players are fielding the dread waaaagh detachment from Vigilus so da souped-up shokka I think will have pretty high representation in the top lists, which makes sense. It's basically a lottery ticket with the potential of nearly one shotting a knight, and with the lack of anything else in the list that can do serious damage (other than a bikerboss) I think players are gonna be using command re-rolls a lot to try and get 11+ strength on that thing.

Da souped up shokka can one-shot a dominus class knight almost 8 times over. I'm surprised it's that popular of a detachment though, most people online seem to be meh on it, I personally love it and have been a staunch defender but I like the "fun" randomness it brings to the tabletop.

Overall I'd be really surprised if Orks win the LVO, the loota star is too easily countered and I'm just not sure if there's an Ork list that's as efficient of a TAC list like Eldar soup can bring. I'm guessing a very DE heavy space elf list will win. We'll see I guess but ITC have some rules oddities so my own personal experience won't be a 1to1 match with how that game works.

Will the new bolter rules be in effect for the LVO? I'm guessing it's too late for GSC codex but those guys will be something to watch out for later in the year I reckon.

Edit: If codex GSC are allowed then bringing a loota bomb is suicide, that tactic is just not viable if two armies (one established as strong and the other one certainly looking the part) can just negate grot shields.

Max wounds isn't that important as averages though. If maximum was what counted grots would be most broken shooting unit in the game ;-)

No bolter rule in LVO. It came out well after rules were set in stone. Nor will GSC codex allowed.

How does GSC btw going to negate grot screen?

tneva82 wrote:


How does GSC btw going to negate grot screen?

They get a stratagem like Agents of Vect. "A plan generations in the making" 3CP

Ah ok....wait 3CP? So better than DE one.

Yeah loota star's days are growing thinner and thinner at least in terms of tournaments. Odds of running to one and losing due to it becomes more and more likely.

Last time I heard I think DE make up like 7-8% of the field, including soup, so I suppose it's possible to not run into them if your lucky but they definitely will be the biggest issue for orks making the top 8. They do have some ways to play around them though, especially with the terrain rules that are gonna be present at LVO it's very possible the ork players will be able to play keep away until they can bring in the rest of their army for a mass assault turn 2. I'd give that matchup probably a 60/40 in favor of DE though.

Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.

How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?

TIA.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.

How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?

TIA.

Burna boyz sucks. They have less shooting output than shoota boyz for the points, worse range, less attacks, less everything. The one thing they have is ap in melee, wich is usually not enpught to put a dent in anything. Just dont use burna boyz

Gitdakka wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.

How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?

TIA.

Burna boyz sucks. They have less shooting output than shoota boyz for the points, worse range, less attacks, less everything. The one thing they have is ap in melee, wich is usually not enpught to put a dent in anything. Just dont use burna boyz

Yea I know but I want to see how big a difference there is mathematically between them and Acolytes.

Gitdakka wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.

How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?

TIA.

Burna boyz sucks. They have less shooting output than shoota boyz for the points, worse range, less attacks, less everything. The one thing they have is ap in melee, wich is usually not enpught to put a dent in anything. Just dont use burna boyz

About only use I have came up with them is use them to spam more KMB mek's with deathskull. And not sure even then is it worth but if index is allowed you can cram in 4 KMB and rokkit to trukk all that can reroll everything.

tneva82 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.

How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?

TIA.

Burna boyz sucks. They have less shooting output than shoota boyz for the points, worse range, less attacks, less everything. The one thing they have is ap in melee, wich is usually not enpught to put a dent in anything. Just dont use burna boyz

About only use I have came up with them is use them to spam more KMB mek's with deathskull. And not sure even then is it worth but if index is allowed you can cram in 4 KMB and rokkit to trukk all that can reroll everything.

I've thought about doing that, but there are some issues.
1. The spanners in the burna squads have 1 wound am i right? This would mean a hit roll of 1 would outright kill them. This makes them worse than their mek collegues.
2. At the current burna boy price would it not just be easier to replace them with regular tankbustas? 10 rokkits with 1 reroll would still be better than 2 blastas with full rerolls yes?

There was a time when Burnas were useful. Now is not that time.

Let's all cross our collective Ork digits for some changes in the March FAQ. Even though, assuming we even get a change, it'd still most likely just be a point drop.

With their current rules, what would you even take them at, 8?

Gitdakka wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Can someone better than me at maths compare 8pt Hand flamer acolytes to our Burna Boyz please? I feel there is a discrepancy there.

How do they compare with a ccw and pistol to Boys for 7ppm?

TIA.

Burna boyz sucks. They have less shooting output than shoota boyz for the points, worse range, less attacks, less everything. The one thing they have is ap in melee, wich is usually not enpught to put a dent in anything. Just dont use burna boyz

About only use I have came up with them is use them to spam more KMB mek's with deathskull. And not sure even then is it worth but if index is allowed you can cram in 4 KMB and rokkit to trukk all that can reroll everything.

I've thought about doing that, but there are some issues.
1. The spanners in the burna squads have 1 wound am i right? This would mean a hit roll of 1 would outright kill them. This makes them worse than their mek collegues.
2. At the current burna boy price would it not just be easier to replace them with regular tankbustas? 10 rokkits with 1 reroll would still be better than 2 blastas with full rerolls yes?

Odds of cooking yourself is 1/36 if you play safe, somewhat more if you risk it. But yes worry.

And yes 10 rokkits will bust tanks better but you should be aiming to head where 8 burnas will at least torch infantry while kmb hunts tanks. Plus you can have both.

Not saying it's competive but if i was going for burnas that seems like least bad way to do it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
Let's all cross our collective Ork digits for some changes in the March FAQ. Even though, assuming we even get a change, it'd still most likely just be a point drop.

With their current rules, what would you even take them at, 8?

8 would be pretty good. 1 pts for burna rather than shoota and some cc ap modifier.

im not even sure if burnas would be good if they DIDNT neuter their attack to be the only D3 flamer in the game.

I think they had a place before Dakkax3, when Eldar and Admech could throw a -2 to hit out and neuter all your ranged options, but between Dakka, Evil Sunz, and Moar Dakka, hitting the target isn't as huge a problem as it used to be.

Anyone have luck with making the relic Shokk Attack Gun into your warlord, and giving them +1 To Wound against Monsters and Vehicles as the Warlord Trait?

Rolling low strength is one of the biggest weaknesses the Souped Up Shokka has, that and rolling number of shots. A +1 To Wound means that, against the most important targets, you're never wounding worse than a 5+, and with decent dice you'll get 3+ or even 2+ pretty easily.

Is it worth making him your Warlord, though? That remains to be seen.

If burnas either went down to 8pts or became d6 at their current price I think they'd be decent. The problem with them is you have to give them a transport though which basically makes them viable only in specific lists like bonebreakas.

tneva82 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The thing with Tankbusta bombs....you really only need 1 per mob....yeah they are free upgrades but who cares? Just kill him last, you can only ever use 1 per shooting phase anyway and realistically if you waste the CP on the grenade strat using a boyz mob you are so desperate that the game is probably already out of hand....which would be weird because I usually run out of CP by the end of turn 3ish if I am being conservative.

You still need specific model to represent. If you are "he's the one I kill last" then you are cheating either intentionally or unintentionally but nevertheless gaining definite advantage with it. Ergo any bombs MUST be identifiable in the unit. "he's the last boy I remove" doesn't cut it.

(and incidentally same reason is also reason why you want 3 in mob of 30 so 3 specific models)

I meant you only need 1 Tankbusta Bomb model instead of 3 per mob because the other 2 are just extra bodies. So just remove your 1 tankbusta bomb model LAST as opposed to having to make more models with Tankbusta bombs. I was not saying cheat or model for advantage or any other nonsense. I was merely pointing out that the "Buff" of getting 3 tankbusta bombs per mob is horsegak at best because realistically you can only use 1 a turn.

SemperMortis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The thing with Tankbusta bombs....you really only need 1 per mob....yeah they are free upgrades but who cares? Just kill him last, you can only ever use 1 per shooting phase anyway and realistically if you waste the CP on the grenade strat using a boyz mob you are so desperate that the game is probably already out of hand....which would be weird because I usually run out of CP by the end of turn 3ish if I am being conservative.

You still need specific model to represent. If you are "he's the one I kill last" then you are cheating either intentionally or unintentionally but nevertheless gaining definite advantage with it. Ergo any bombs MUST be identifiable in the unit. "he's the last boy I remove" doesn't cut it.

(and incidentally same reason is also reason why you want 3 in mob of 30 so 3 specific models)

I meant you only need 1 Tankbusta Bomb model instead of 3 per mob because the other 2 are just extra bodies. So just remove your 1 tankbusta bomb model LAST as opposed to having to make more models with Tankbusta bombs. I was not saying cheat or model for advantage or any other nonsense. I was merely pointing out that the "Buff" of getting 3 tankbusta bombs per mob is horsegak at best because realistically you can only use 1 a turn.

And I'm saying the exact same reason why you can't just go "last model removed is the one with tank busta" is the same reason why there IS point for having 3.

I give you a free hint in figuring why. "Range"

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Is you big mek a SAG big mek? If so, check out the relic from the dread waaagh detachment in Vigilus defiant. It's 2d6 shots instead of 1d6. That guy is going to wreck face if he gets to hit on 4's.

About that... I have used that relic three times so far and it did next to nothing. As soon as -1 to hit or invul saves are involved the 2d6 shots hitting on 5+ simply don't cut it. Two hits which might be wounding on fives have not been doing much for me, and I'm not wasting the shooting phase re-roll on the strength roll. The dead shiny shoota I have been running just for the heck of it has killed more than the relic SAG and costs less CP.

The relic gets you on average 7 shots for 2 hits with 1 roll of a 1 and a roll of a 6 which means two rerolls, one of which can reroll a 1 again, overall its almost exactly 3 hits a turn on average. Average strength is 7 as well. I have had amazing luck with this thing, I was about to kill a Broadside in a single round of shooting with it, and than used the shoot twice strat to kill his buddy. Basically earning my points back and than some with 1 round of shooting and some CP

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Is you big mek a SAG big mek? If so, check out the relic from the dread waaagh detachment in Vigilus defiant. It's 2d6 shots instead of 1d6. That guy is going to wreck face if he gets to hit on 4's.

About that... I have used that relic three times so far and it did next to nothing. As soon as -1 to hit or invul saves are involved the 2d6 shots hitting on 5+ simply don't cut it. Two hits which might be wounding on fives have not been doing much for me, and I'm not wasting the shooting phase re-roll on the strength roll. The dead shiny shoota I have been running just for the heck of it has killed more than the relic SAG and costs less CP.

The relic gets you on average 7 shots for 2 hits with 1 roll of a 1 and a roll of a 6 which means two rerolls, one of which can reroll a 1 again, overall its almost exactly 3 hits a turn on average. Average strength is 7 as well. I have had amazing luck with this thing, I was about to kill a Broadside in a single round of shooting with it, and than used the shoot twice strat to kill his buddy. Basically earning my points back and than some with 1 round of shooting and some CP

It bears mentioning that this IS a Shokk Attack Gun. It's the very definition of unreliable.
I played two games with it yesterday, both against Tyranids. The first game, I nuked the Swarmlord and three Tyrant Guard in one round of shooting. (Albeit a round where I spent command points to fire twice.)
The next game, I put five wounds on a Hive Tyrant, also spending two command points to fire twice.

Since we are discussing the (amongst other things) souped up shocka. I used it last game and while it didn't do much whole game it then made it's points back 4 times over by one shotting a Doom Ark and 2 castellan robots (it was a 2v2). But we ran into an issue, does the SAG keep it's strength for the whole shooting phase when fired twice? Or do I need to reroll its strength when I fire it again with the Vigilus stratagem.

AFAIK you never keep the strength unless specifically stated. So the lootas keep it for the phase since they mention that. Everything else you roll for again

Edit: I meant stats, not strength, in the sentence above

 Castozor wrote:
Since we are discussing the (amongst other things) souped up shocka. I used it last game and while it didn't do much whole game it then made it's points back 4 times over by one shotting a Doom Ark and 2 castellan robots (it was a 2v2). But we ran into an issue, does the SAG keep it's strength for the whole shooting phase when fired twice? Or do I need to reroll its strength when I fire it again with the Vigilus stratagem.

I always play you have to reroll everything, but that is something I would like to see get answered because it is a fairly important question.