Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

PiñaColada wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Everyone already knows Ork units are overpriced for what they give ya. Hell, even Grots. Sure, they're only 4pts a model, but they're so weak and easy to kill their only use is to generate CP and act as bullet sponges with Grot Shield.

The truck conversation was in regards to other Ork transports, not as to whether or not they stack up compared to transports in other armies.

Grots are 3 points a pop, not 4 fortunately. Only the oilers/ammo runts are 4ppm.

It's still a vast difference in worth between grots at 3ppm and guardsmen at 4ppm though

Actual Grots should be 2ppm and get access to Grot Pistols and Grot blastas, where the Blasta is just range 24. The Oilers/runts are 3ppm and realistically only because they add a meat shield wound.

So what would be the flipside of blasta? 24" range and no other difference would be stupid. S2? Extra point? And don't even try to say "pistol has pistol rather than assault" as assault would actually be better as would rapid fire. So blasta either needs to cost more or have some other bad side compared to pistol so less S or heavy as weapon type.

(and that would be PITA to look "this model has pistol, that model has blasta". ARGH!

With some of the comments around our units on the last few pages do we still feel that the ranking on the first page is accurate?

Boyz are still considered the highest tier unit? I disagree.
Traktor Cannons?
Tank Bustas and Bonebreakas?! I've never seen either in a top performing competitive list. Tank Bustas are pretty lame since they can't use stratagems from a Trukk and Bonebreakas are too expensive IMO.

Jidmah - can we have a look at the ranking system and rejig some things please?

I have never been particularly hurt by strategems not working inside trukk for tank bustas. They get generally da jumped into position anyway. Safer, better range, cheaper. In trukk they would be harder to hide AND have range.

Boyz aren't best units yes though unit or two still needed.

Traktor kannon...It's bit of specialised weapons but seeing how insaneously popular eldar flyers are can be worth it. You are looking at hitting on 6's on them otherwise. Only other options you have is more dakka on say lootas but agents of vect says "no to that"(well actually they just kill lootas before they shoot). So having some non-strategem dependant anti-alaitoc flyer killers is handy to have around in tournaments.

I'm not sure the front page list has been changed since Vigilus defiant dropped. The SAG Mek has no mention of firing twice with the relic SAG for example.

Might be worth revisiting.

Well I don't bother with those first page things anyway so can't put up strong opinion on that one. Not sure have I ever read that first page part.

The firing twice for SAG isn't particularly good idea though. 2CP for random shots and S chance. If you had the stats(at least one of them) stay same for shots sure but now you need pretty weird spot. At least with lootas you know how many shots you get before you commit for spending 2CP. And you fire with lot more models.

I'm on about using the relic SAG and the dread waaaagh fire again stratagem (that can't be used on Lootas).

I'm not a massive fan of the relic SAG if I'm honest, it's too random for me and the soon-to-be Assassin meta will kill them dead, I think (see what I did there?). It is sweeping the competitive scene though.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm on about using the relic SAG and the dread waaaagh fire again stratagem (that can't be used on Lootas).

I'm not a massive fan of the relic SAG if I'm honest, it's too random for me and the soon-to-be Assassin meta will kill them dead, I think (see what I did there?). It is sweeping the competitive scene though.

Yes I know that strategem. Doesn't change the fact that when you shoot with SAG again you have to roll for shots and S AGAIN. Compared to using the bad moon strategem for lootas you have no idea on how good round you are spending 2CP. With bad moon strategem on lootas you know in advance do you shoot 1, 2 or 3 shots per loota if you fire again. With SAG thing you know only you shoot 2d6 S2d6 shots. So you could spend 2CP anywhere from 2 S2 shots to 12 S12 shots...

I could see myself spending 2CP to get that SAG if opposing army is one that has worthwhile targets and no easy way to snipe him away and just settle for regular SAG otherwise saving 2CP. But that strategem I can't see myself using. 2CP for new chance to fire that rather unreliable gun is too much.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

If you are running Goff anyways, why not bring Thrakka? You basically get two killa klaws that way. I also don't see why you would want two banners in the army, since neither the warbosses nor the bonebreakers benefit from it.

150 pts or so why! Also eats up place of a nob and is basically just slower expensive warlord with 4++. Nice but the price!

You drop both the banner and the warboss for Thrakka, since his buff is better than the warbanner due to the goff trait and also affects your Evil Suns nobz if they are close enough. Thrakkas 2+/4++/T6/W8 is enough to overpower deamon princes, dreads and other things that your would usually just suicide your klaw boss into.
If you drop both banners and replace the warboss you end up paying just one more point than before.

(Clan); units within 6" of any friendly Waaagh! banner add 1 to their hit rolls in the Fight phase.

Note the word clan. Sure I could drop one(probably the one with killa klaw warboss. Regular warboss benefits just fine tyvm hitting on 2+ with his -1 to hit power klaw) but that's one nob unit hitting on 3+'s then.

You are still spending 77 points to buff a single unit of nobz - without doing the math, I'd wager there are more efficient things to spend points on. I'd just drop them completely, hitting on 3's is plenty for nobz.

You also have Warboss+Weirdboy+Banner+10 nobz add up to 13 models, which do not fit inside the bonebreaker. From experience, you will always roll at least one 6 when a wagon blows up, so you can save points by replacing one choppachoppa nob with an ammo runt.

Yes they do not all fit. Which is why weirdboys were never going there. Can't cast from inside anyway, no real need to be there giving easy assasinate targets.

What's your plan for them then? Have them run after the wagons and get sniped by planes or bikes? If just need cheap HQs, SAGs are much better for hiding among gretchin and mek guns.

And yes 1's are going to come. But that's assuming wagons always blow up and if they do I'm expecting nobs to melt away right away anyway. It's bit of saved points when you lose wagon(and nobs along with it) but wasted points when it's not for waste of a space when you don't. Ammo runt there does nothing if wagon doesn't blow up.

It still takes the first bullet aimed at the unit, just like that nob. You are basically spending 10 points for the rare occasion where 10 nobz make it into combat. I run usually run 10 nobz+2 ammo runts and have yet to get an ammo runt into combat - and my opponents pack a lot less firepower than yours.

I assume that your clans are locked in by your paint job as usual? Otherwise you could get some more mileage out of re-arranging your army.

Yeah well wysiwyg is a thing in Finland. Common courtesy. You don't want to be going "these black and white orks are X while these black and white orks are actually Y".

No sweat Just making sure that this is the case before wasting both our times with ideas on how to arrange your army into something you wouldn't be able to do anyways.

Yes but that's 120 pts and only very few armies(pure marines basically) that's actually possible in practice. Against most I move, charge, kill little, then bonebreaka gets surrounded by chaff and blown(being middle of enemy army that's easy not to mention the extra juice makes it worth ignoring generally everything to do it) and hey presto not only did I lose bonebreaka but also warboss, banner and 10 nobs and he didn't even need to bother to SHOOT at the contents.

Do you have a battle report on that actually ever happening?

A bonebreaka is almost 8" long, and barring awesome charge rolls like tripple sixes, you will be just barely touching one or two models. Those can pile in, of course, but during the fight phase you kill five to seven of those anyways. Then, even if there should be some left, those need to get out of the 1" margin or they will be stuck in combat and the bonebreaka can't be shot, period. So they fall back, and move as far as possible, which is usually up to 6", so a mode which did a maximum pile-in move will not be able to get behind the 8" bone breaka. Other chaff might be moving in as well, which is usually not enough to surround the wagon, even if they advance, since they have to get near the wagon first. Worst case you are facing imperial guardsmen which are ordered to move-move-move and actually manage to get all around the bonebreaka and they still need to have enough models to do a fully surround without you jumping over their lines (deployment is just within 3", no need to deploy them fully within 3"), which is a about 10 per side plus additional models on the front and back. Considering how you just killed about half a squad (plus moral casualties and whatever the wartrike and the koptas killed) that would mean two officers and 30+ models and no terrain blocking involved to pull this off at all. A single failed advance roll is enough to get your warboss and some nobz out, your opponent would be drawing his entire bubble wrap off his units and objectives.
So even assuming all this goes right for your opponent - use your wartrike and koptas to take out nearby units, block their movement by simply standing in the way and remember to the heroic intervention on the wartrike should they try to finish off the wagon in the assault phase. Usual amounts of chaff like the loyal 32 should not be a problem. If you are facing hordes of genestealers, obviously don't charge into those. It's not a mandatory strategy, since you don't actually invest a lot into it, but you have the option to do it when the opportunity arises. Options are good.

In my experience, armies without jet bikes cannot reliably surround the battlewagon model with a deff rolla since it's simply to big if you are aware that it can happen.

In general, the wartrike isn't any worse than a warboss without relic claw, and giving the nauts the ability advance and assault is definitely worth a lot.

For that I would need lot more chaff clearing ability to but as it is this won't clear any of that on T1 really.

You will lose a wagon turn 1. By pulling off a T1 assault you simply decide which one it is. I heavily doubt that you will get it surrounded and killed if you are careful.

If you really want a KFF, then switch a gorkanaut for a morkanaut? They aren't that far apart in efficiency.

Sure. Just get me one I have 2 gorkanauts. I don't have morkanaut. I got 2nd gorkanaut second hand so much to my annoyance still lacking morkanaut. That was one reason(along with 2nd stompa) 2nd hand deal was bit of "hmmmmm....." but over 60% discount was in the end too good to pass out on.

 Jidmah wrote:

What's your plan for them then? Have them run after the wagons and get sniped by planes or bikes? If just need cheap HQs, SAGs are much better for hiding among gretchin and mek guns.

SAG would require adding 3rd battallion though ;-) That or drop either all goffs or all evil suns to bring in death skulls.

And weirdboys have the grots to provide protection against planes at least. And besides only one of them is needed there. Da jump isn't needed near battle wagon anyway. I'm not likely going to da jump those nobs out of combat now am I?-)

So both are second hand? Bummer. I love building models, so nauts will be magnetized to be whatever.

Nah 1st one was bought when I had yet to magnetize anything and when morkanaut was even worse than now. Ah well. I'll get morkanaut one day. After I get death koptas, 9 evil sun meganobz and bunch of other ideas I have in mind!

Why not get some AOBR koptas then? They still pop up all over ebay since everyone and their dog bought the box for space marines. Singles do work fine though, so go for it. They are surprisingly resilient since no one wants to dedicate as much as single plasma gun to a kopta and bolters or heavy bolters just don't kill them efficiently.

Been trying to look eye on them but generally they seem to go surprisingly high and them it's almost 20£ extra for shipping....Bloody postages! Though checked and there's one sweet deal. 5 bikes, 5 deffkoptas. Though wonder how far bidding goes.

That's weird logic. The rokkit unit simply gets three additional shots and will never need a re-roll since ones don't damage themselves. Rokkits still deal more damage on average, even if you have less re-rolls per shot.

They get more damage due to 2 shots yes but then again plasma has effectively average damage 4 vs 3 of rokkit which evens up lot especially when you factor in points.

One reroll helps more the less shots you have. And rokkits cost more. It's basically average of 0.88 hits vs 0.555 hits or 60% more hits vs plasma. Nice but of course 33% more damage from plasma, better AP and cheaper price.

For cheap you could always do big shootas. They are basically nob bikers with choppas for lest points but with fly, more range and more wounds.

True but that's case of not having as much impact then. Cheap is good but lone big shoota doesn't do much. Rokkits or plasma could scare various things. Especially plasma gives enemy characters even something to worry about because while odds are not best they have POTENTIAL to assasinate so have to considerate that one and position things around.

Much like units that are just durable but don't pose any threat aren't all that great always. Being tough is good yes but if opponent can ignore the unit it's not much of use(except in some scenarios).

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

What's your plan for them then? Have them run after the wagons and get sniped by planes or bikes? If just need cheap HQs, SAGs are much better for hiding among gretchin and mek guns.

SAG would require adding 3rd battallion though ;-) That or drop either all goffs or all evil suns to bring in death skulls.

And weirdboys have the grots to provide protection against planes at least. And besides only one of them is needed there. Da jump isn't needed near battle wagon anyway. I'm not likely going to da jump those nobs out of combat now am I?-)

Da jump is not needed at all (jumping gretchin is a waste IMO), so you basically have two HQs sitting in the back and doing nothing but throwing unbuffed smites at some targets that chose to be the closest ones within 18". You are better off with just bringing a SAG that might be less reliable, but at least can pick targets. He can also repair mek guns which is nice.

My main reason to bring weird boyz in a mechanized list is to have a deny available. Especially against CSM Sorcerers (Warptime, Death Hex, Prescience), TS or Eldar (Jinx, Quicken/Restrain, Doom). Being able to deny one of those powers or even just a smite is invaluable - even if you don't succeed a single deny for a whole game, your opponent will have to play around it, and some of mine have been blowing CP to make sure that an essential power will not be denied.
Therefore I bring a single warphead for -1 CP with Fists of Gork and Warpath to either have a character hulksmash a vehicle or character or getting those few extra attacks on a nobz unit that needs them. Warpath can also be used on nauts or bonekrushas should the need arise.

So both are second hand? Bummer. I love building models, so nauts will be magnetized to be whatever.

Nah 1st one was bought when I had yet to magnetize anything and when morkanaut was even worse than now. Ah well. I'll get morkanaut one day. After I get death koptas, 9 evil sun meganobz and bunch of other ideas I have in mind!

Why not get some AOBR koptas then? They still pop up all over ebay since everyone and their dog bought the box for space marines. Singles do work fine though, so go for it. They are surprisingly resilient since no one wants to dedicate as much as single plasma gun to a kopta and bolters or heavy bolters just don't kill them efficiently.

Been trying to look eye on them but generally they seem to go surprisingly high and them it's almost 20£ extra for shipping....Bloody postages! Though checked and there's one sweet deal. 5 bikes, 5 deffkoptas. Though wonder how far bidding goes.

They get more damage due to 2 shots yes but then again plasma has effectively average damage 4 vs 3 of rokkit which evens up lot especially when you factor in points.

One reroll helps more the less shots you have. And rokkits cost more. It's basically average of 0.88 hits vs 0.555 hits or 60% more hits vs plasma. Nice but of course 33% more damage from plasma, better AP and cheaper price.

Against a T7 target 3 deffskull rokkit koptas do 3.21 damage, 3 deffskull KMBs do 3.15 if it has no invul save and 2.52 if it has a 5++ save. If you are not shooting vehicles but multi-wound infantry or bikes, the rokkits are much more likely to kill a model than the KMB.
So it basically depends on what you expect to be facing more often.

True but that's case of not having as much impact then. Cheap is good but lone big shoota doesn't do much. Rokkits or plasma could scare various things. Especially plasma gives enemy characters even something to worry about because while odds are not best they have POTENTIAL to assasinate so have to considerate that one and position things around.

Much like units that are just durable but don't pose any threat aren't all that great always. Being tough is good yes but if opponent can ignore the unit it's not much of use(except in some scenarios).

In reality, my koptas spend at least half their games not hitting as single shot all game. Their main use is to capture/contest objectives, deny area, harass shooting units without fly and tie down infantry. Their spinnin' blade is a decent close combat weapon, so you often find yourself shooting, charging some infantry, they fall back, refuse to shoot your single kopta, repeat. At some point your opponent will be annoyed enough with the kopta ork sticking to one of his troops or tanks that they will open fire on it and then it dies. Parking one next to a psyker as a smite magnet is also cute to annoy them.
I really don't think there is that important to have a good weapon on them as they are a utility unit, not a fire base.

 Jidmah wrote:

Da jump is not needed at all (jumping gretchin is a waste IMO), so you basically have two HQs sitting in the back and doing nothing but throwing unbuffed smites at some targets that chose to be the closest ones within 18". You are better off with just bringing a SAG that might be less reliable, but at least can pick targets. He can also repair mek guns which is nice.

Da jump can throw the 2nd weirdboy where he needs to be and da jumping gretchins is far from waste. I have won games with that. Literally. Throwing gretchins around gaining like 5 vp's with that and winning by margin of...wait for it...5. Or roadblock. Even knights gets stopped by line of grots standing front of them slowing them down.

Da jump is awesome even without boyz for charge.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Da jump is not needed at all (jumping gretchin is a waste IMO), so you basically have two HQs sitting in the back and doing nothing but throwing unbuffed smites at some targets that chose to be the closest ones within 18". You are better off with just bringing a SAG that might be less reliable, but at least can pick targets. He can also repair mek guns which is nice.

Da jump can throw the 2nd weirdboy where he needs to be and da jumping gretchins is far from waste. I have won games with that. Literally. Throwing gretchins around gaining like 5 vp's with that and winning by margin of...wait for it...5. Or roadblock. Even knights gets stopped by line of grots standing front of them slowing them down.

Da jump is awesome even without boyz for charge.

I can attest to porting grots as a valid tactic. Even in non-maelstrom games, having a pack of grots that your opponent forget about suddenly claim an abandoned or backfield objective is clutch and can be game-winning. Now it does bank on the game ending in that same turn usually, but it's much more useful than you'd think at first glance.

had 2 games recently that is helping refine a list i want to bring to a Washington tournament.

1st game was against mechanikus knights,1 castelan knight,2 other basic knights,and 2 helverin armigers. he had some sliied primaris marines for objective grabbing (to his credit he doesn't own impguard so he couldn't exploit the loyal 32 for cps).

i brought a 25 badmoon loota star with enough grots to fill 3 batalions,a supa shocka, and 5 megatrak scrapjets and some wierdboyz for cheap hqs.and a morkanaut, i got beat,

relying on the shooting of lootas against T8 knights was not that great,but grot shield kept them alive till they started to engage the grots in combat. all scrapjets and the moprkanaut were destroyed (zoggin castelan and helverins) and the dice gods were not with me as every vehicle i had decided to explode.

so not a good turn out,my next game i decided to focus my list around an ork gun line,something ive always dreamed about and this edition is the closest ill get to an effective one.

2nd game was against my brothers tau list.he just got CA pts drops and was wanting to run suit spam. he brought 1 riptide,1ghostkeel,3 FW dakka hazard suits,and the rest was suits and commanders with stealth suits for grabbing objectives.

my revised list was the 25 badmoon lootas star with enough grots to fill 3 batalions. i had 12 mekguns (4 kmk, 4 traktors, 4smashas). bigmeks with kff (ill use my index to its very last breath this edition), wierdboyz for cheep hqs, and 3 min squads of stormboys and 3 separate bigshoota defkoptas for objective deepstrikeing and objective grabbing. and of course the supashocka on a bike bigmek (i forgot the index bikemek does not have DDD so next time ill bring a basic bigmek with supa shocka).

this game was the 1st time ever in the 3 editions ive played that i shot my brothers tau off the board. i wiped him on turn 3. my supashoka was able to take out his burst cannon riptide out by turn 2. my trakptor kannons killed his qhostkeel (dont need to worry about any -2 to hit if my guns auto hit,lol),and kmks/smashas/and lootas eliminated everything else,and weirdboys even did mortal wounds when he deepstruk close enough (lootas nearby them helped fuel their smites).

i know tau are having issues this edition,im pretty sure this list would've worked very differently vrs 7th edition tau.

supa shocka is great, its a good knight sniper,but has to worry about snipers himself as he has low armor and wounds (kept him nearby KFF).i had my bigmek as badmoon,helps for when i roll a lot of shots for the gun.i gave him "bigkillaboss" for his warlord trait,so he always hit above his weight vrs monsters and vehicles (especially when he rolled low on the supa shocka strength.) "kustom ammo" is great for doing more shots in a round (and if i was desperate to kill more T8 models i wouldve used "showing off" on him instead of the lootas so he can get 3 shots in a round).

i love all the mekguns (outside the bubblechucka),and they each have preferred targets and are effective for their points and make for good chaf and are hard to kill due to being individual models on the table top and having a decent amount of wounds (benefits of KFF helps too).these guns are my solutions to knights and anythig T8. though if i had to choose my favorite it would have to be the traktors. the auto hit and range makes them supreme for killing anything hard to hit (if you know your opponents have these units in his army,then always bring at least 4 traktors).

lootas are mvps,using both "more dakka" and "showing off" along with badmoons to become ALL THE DAKKA! the sheer amount of shots they can put out is staggering and can delete squads of elite infatrry (just have to get used to dividing shooting and what targets need what shots). also more dakka was great to allow them to shoot stealth squads off the objectives as you dont care about minus to hit when 5s and 6s always hit.

the 90 grots i have are dedicated for grotshiled and screening anything melee focused. they give me enough battalions for 18 cps to use the strats for max shooting for at least 2 rounds,and 2 rounds of massive shooting can be enough to turn the tide.

stormboys and defkoptas didnt get to do much as i pretty much wiped my opponent, so getting objectives wasn't that important.

the next game im planning to play with this list is dark eldar (need that to see how well it does vrs a fast melee list).

and illl try another game against that knight player to see how well my revised list does against majority T8.

if next game my lootas are threatened by melee im prepared to use a weirboy to "dajump" them away (if i save enough cps for when that hapens and use more dakka they wont have to worry about moving and shooting with hvy wpns).

 Grimskul wrote:

I can attest to porting grots as a valid tactic. Even in non-maelstrom games, having a pack of grots that your opponent forget about suddenly claim an abandoned or backfield objective is clutch and can be game-winning. Now it does bank on the game ending in that same turn usually, but it's much more useful than you'd think at first glance.

Well it's not super big thingie(that's why I only have 1 da jump there....Usually 2 is minimum with another spell only if I have 3 weirdboys) but tossing grots around is surprisingly useful anyway. I don't have many units to chase distant objectives anyway so these could be useful.

Generally games here are either maelstrom or mix of eternal war+maelstrom. No pure eternal war scenarios are generally played(at least I have yet to play one in over a year)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

geargutz wrote:
had 2 games recently that is helping refine a list i want to bring to a Washington tournament.

1st game was against mechanikus knights,1 castelan knight,2 other basic knights,and 2 helverin armigers. he had some sliied primaris marines for objective grabbing (to his credit he doesn't own impguard so he couldn't exploit the loyal 32 for cps).

That's...Lot. 2500 pts lists? 2k shouldn't fit. Finnish single codex tournament was played today with castellan+2 basic knights+2 armiger for 2k.

BTW 2 helverins or 2 warglaives or mix of both? Surely not 2 of both?

i brought a 25 badmoon loota star with enough grots to fill 3 batalions,a supa shocka, and 5 megatrak scrapjets and some wierdboyz for cheap hqs.and a morkanaut, i got beat,

Say hello to army knights love. Lootas aren't too scary for knights, megatrakks are blown easily and morkanat is also not much of a worry.

(and if i was desperate to kill more T8 models i wouldve used "showing off" on him instead of the lootas so he can get 3 shots in a round).

That's highyl debatable as neither is "shoot again" but more of "shoot 2nd time". Can't shoot 2nd time more than once. That would be shooting 3rd time.

i love all the mekguns (outside the bubblechucka),and they each have preferred targets and are effective for their points and make for good chaf and are hard to kill due to being individual models on the table top and having a decent amount of wounds (benefits of KFF helps too).these guns are my solutions to knights and anythig T8. though if i had to choose my favorite it would have to be the traktors. the auto hit and range makes them supreme for killing anything hard to hit (if you know your opponents have these units in his army,then always bring at least 4 traktors).

One big issue with them is that if you don't have much of other vehicles they get popped out real fast. I had 10 on saturday game and eventhough I seized initiave causing hefty damage and bit of luck(rolling double 1's with bright lance wounding, missing hits, rolling 3d3 for damage and failing to kill etc) they were popping up like balloons.

Traktor is bit of niche thing. Nice vs -x to hit(particularly -2) but vs regulars smasha guns are better.

lootas are mvps,using both "more dakka" and "showing off" along with badmoons to become ALL THE DAKKA! the sheer amount of shots they can put out is staggering and can delete squads of elite infatrry (just have to get used to dividing shooting and what targets need what shots). also more dakka was great to allow them to shoot stealth squads off the objectives as you dont care about minus to hit [when 5s and 6s always hit.

Mind you dark eldars(and generally eldar soups) will remove those in their first turn(so half the time before you get even to shoot) and many tyranid soups will do likewise.

the next game im planning to play with this list is dark eldar (need that to see how well it does vrs a fast melee list).

Prepare to loose lootas seeing they will negate your grot screen on 2+. Forget the melee. They will be shot to death.

I forgot the real name of the mini knights, so it was only 2 helverins. Also maybe I'm remembering wrong, I at least know there was 2 mini heverins, a Catalan, and a knight with some primaris.

Like I said, I have more games to play to test the mettle of my ork gun line. I have 90 grots between my loota and my opponent, if I go 2nd then I'll have to rely on them to keep my loota alive, as soon as they shoot they will hopefully murder most of their anti infantry and melee.

I'll of course let you guys know how it turns out.

Personally I can't keep up with all the discussions going on in this thread, so I really really like the first post of the first page. It's like a bible for me. Thanks Jidmah and all who participated, keep up the good work!

Jidmah - don't know if you missed it or just ignored above but I think the front page needs editing.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jidmah - don't know if you missed it or just ignored above but I think the front page needs editing.

Also, I dont know if someone's talked about it yet, but adding the vigilus detachments and their strats and wargear on the 1st page will help many determine if they need the book or not.

For example the supa shocka is superb and combined with bigkillaboss (a warlord trait I didn't see on the front page) makes it one of our best shooting options in my opinion.

Edit I appreciate your efforts jidmah, much better then the tactics thread i tried starting.

On that topic... Trukk analysis for the OP.

I'd put them at dark blue.

"The lowly Trukk is our cheapest transport option. It's easy to fit into lists, and is an effective way to get your Nobz, Tankbustas, and Flash Gitz up the field. But it lacks the staying power and damage potential of the Bonebreaker and Battlewagon, so if you want your transports to do more than move units, or survive after the initial clash, you should look elsewhere."

Participated in a 10 man 750pt eternal war (ca missions) tourney with this list:

Bad moons.
Souped up sag mek - warlord
Biker boss with kombiskorcha blunderbuss and pk
Wierdboy
30 shootaboyz, bc nob
2*10 grots
Dakkajet with 6 supashootas
Trukk

Won vs:
1k sons+csm list with 3 dp, sorc and cultists. Cleared screens, shot down 1 dp and outscored.

Deathguards with dp, 2 tanks (those tough grinders with mortars and flamers), 2 helbrutes with twin laz and cultists. First turn killed a brute, than he shot a plane down to 3 hp with laz. But 2d and 3d turn wittled down 1 tank and another helbrute, lost most of the list but returned 30 boyz and eventually killed most of the stuff other than a dp. He was unkillable with 2+, 5++, 4+++ and mortal wounds on saved wounds. Still, outscored.

Necrons with an ark, fixer cryptek, overlord, 2*5 immortals, 10 warriors and 3 destroyers. Was lucky to get 1st turn, thus killed destroyers with combined shooting from sag, plane and trukk. Plane exploded and kilked 3 warriors. Than he one-shot a plane with an ark and halved the boy blob with immortals. Boss, remaining boyz and sag killed most of his infantry, not much reanimated and than he lost a warlord, remaining troops and gave up. Though, i could do nothing vs an ark. It absorbed all sag damage with a shield. But he was too demoralized to continue for some reason.

Last game vs monster mash nids. Flyrant, swarmlord, some large caster bug and a small flying brain caster. We got 1st turn and dropped flyrant to 3 wounds, he than advanced across the board and wrecked a trukk. Than we gak down the brain and flyrant. He than killed a boss with swarmlord and chopped down some boyz. Boyz struck in return. Eventually, swarmlord and large caster bug were brought down to 3 wounds and we were outscoring him, so nids conceded.

Ork victory.

geargutz wrote:
I forgot the real name of the mini knights, so it was only 2 helverins. Also maybe I'm remembering wrong, I at least know there was 2 mini heverins, a Catalan, and a knight with some primaris.

Like I said, I have more games to play to test the mettle of my ork gun line. I have 90 grots between my loota and my opponent, if I go 2nd then I'll have to rely on them to keep my loota alive, as soon as they shoot they will hopefully murder most of their anti infantry and melee.

I'll of course let you guys know how it turns out.

Thing is BOTH are correct names but different ones Helverin is the one with 2 super autocannons. Warglaive is one with rapid melta and chainsword.

Thing about 90 grots is they are useless against dark eldars, eldar soups and now tyranid soup as well. He shoots at lootas, you trigger grot screen, he says "no you don't" on 2+ negating the grot screen for turn and then vaporizes the whole mob. So unless you luck it and he rolls 1 the lootas gets deleted. Or do you think your T4 W1 orks will survive long vs all those poison shots without grot screen? Possibly rerolling 1's etc. I have been under face of DE fire and it's been awful firepower. Unless you weaken their firepower losing 300+ models in 5 turns isn't impossible. At least now you can actually do something rather than them simply parking where you can't assault and being behind -1 or -2 protection. But dark eldars are the ones where loota star cannot be relied because they can negate your grot screen so easily. So if you are starting you might get one round well(assuming he doesn't have CP to do the 4CP strategem twice to negate your more dakka making you hit on 6's) but if he goes first you can quite easily get entire mob get vaporized. Very annoying. Especially as dark eldars are soooo common and even craftworlds tends to conveniently have 3 flyers(good on their own as well) of correct kabal.

If somebody has good idea to deal with eldar soup I would like to hear. There's competive eldar soup player here so would like to try kicking them but struggling to come up with list that could work. Loota star can't be relied(unless I bring them in double and bring 2nd via deep strike. Lose 1, have 1 more. Not enough models for that). Traktor kannons could be good but alas I only have 4 and dark lances will mince meat 4 in no time. Other ideas? Also keep in mind assaulting can be tricky for several due to higher floors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Participated in a 10 man 750pt eternal war (ca missions) tourney with this list:

Bad moons.
Souped up sag mek - warlord
Biker boss with kombiskorcha blunderbuss and pk
Wierdboy
30 shootaboyz, bc nob
2*10 grots
Dakkajet with 6 supashootas
Trukk

Out of curiosity what was the role for trukk here? Overwatch eater? Objective grabber? I would have brought rather like 2 smasha guns instead but maybe I'm missing something.

geargutz wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jidmah - don't know if you missed it or just ignored above but I think the front page needs editing.

Also, I dont know if someone's talked about it yet, but adding the vigilus detachments and their strats and wargear on the 1st page will help many determine if they need the book or not.

For example the supa shocka is superb and combined with bigkillaboss (a warlord trait I didn't see on the front page) makes it one of our best shooting options in my opinion.

Edit I appreciate your efforts jidmah, much better then the tactics thread i tried starting.

There's also been discussion of the Snazztrike and Ard as Nails warlord trait bumping that T up to 8 for a deffkilla but I'm not sure its a great thing. The Kult of Speed formation generally seems borked and and poorly written. I'm sure GW intended the fearless Bikers to last during the opponents turn also but poor writing has disallowed it. I have been toying with the idea of locking a Knight in combat with bikes (using the consolidate 2d6 strat) then you remember a Knight eats bikes for breakfast so it probably isn't the best idea.

Val Hefflefinger is using the Stompa mob, desperately trying to make that work and to be fair he has incredibly had some success (though in an admittedly smaller tournament setting).

The Dread mob opens up options we probably need to discuss further. Double shooting a Souped Up SAG Mek or Gork/Morkanaut? Am I the only one thinking of using the warlord trait to heal vehicles D3+1? Am I insane to consider it?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jidmah - don't know if you missed it or just ignored above but I think the front page needs editing.

Probably missed it. It would be best to PM me if you want changes/add content to the first post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

geargutz wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Jidmah - don't know if you missed it or just ignored above but I think the front page needs editing.

Also, I dont know if someone's talked about it yet, but adding the vigilus detachments and their strats and wargear on the 1st page will help many determine if they need the book or not.

For example the supa shocka is superb and combined with bigkillaboss (a warlord trait I didn't see on the front page) makes it one of our best shooting options in my opinion.

Edit I appreciate your efforts jidmah, much better then the tactics thread i tried starting.

I don't have the time to do the write-up myself (I'd rather use that time to get my models painted ), so if anyone want's to do that feel free to PM me. I'll apply formatting, spelling and some redactional changes and put you on the awesome gitz list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
There's also been discussion of the Snazztrike and Ard as Nails warlord trait bumping that T up to 8 for a deffkilla but I'm not sure its a great thing.

I have found the difference between T7 and T8 on a character is almost neglectable, since the trike is rarely shot at by the really big guns or masses of S4 attacks. In addition, since he is only S7 he really needs that extra oomph from might is right, proper killy or brutal but kunnin'.

The Kult of Speed formation generally seems borked and and poorly written. I'm sure GW intended the fearless Bikers to last during the opponents turn also but poor writing has disallowed it. I have been toying with the idea of locking a Knight in combat with bikes (using the consolidate 2d6 strat) then you remember a Knight eats bikes for breakfast so it probably isn't the best idea.

You don't need to lock it into combat, that doesn't do jack anyways besides giving it another round of combat. just stay 1.0001" away from it and get your speed freeks around it - no movement for a turn and it's not terrible efficient at killing 2W models.
By far the best application for that stratagem is to arrest a single model from a nearby unit so it cannot fall back - this will protect you from shooting for a turn.

The Souped SAG with killy reputation is insane. You have 50% chance to wound on 2+ anything 7 or less with no Saves allowed.
The only thing I'm not sure is if freebooterz is better than bad moons or not. Freebooterz you need to have the whole army in order to proc +1.
If my math is right ( and often is not) freebooterz trait would allow you to have 10% more chance to hit than bad moons.
Do we have any kind soul that could do the math on that ?

 Jidmah wrote:

You don't need to lock it into combat, that doesn't do jack anyways besides giving it another round of combat. just stay 1.0001" away from it and get your speed freeks around it - no movement for a turn and it's not terrible efficient at killing 2W models.
By far the best application for that stratagem is to arrest a single model from a nearby unit so it cannot fall back - this will protect you from shooting for a turn.

1" won't be good idea. Knights tends to be characters so all you accomplish is giving him round of shooting AND round of h2h in your turn when he heroic intervenes. Learned that the hard way

And guess idea was prevent him from falling back and shooting. Yes he'll stomp some bikes but then doesn't shoot next round. Want to face shooting+round of combat or 2 rounds of combat vs bikes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Emicrania wrote:
The Souped SAG with killy reputation is insane. You have 50% chance to wound on 2+ anything 7 or less with no Saves allowed.
The only thing I'm not sure is if freebooterz is better than bad moons or not. Freebooterz you need to have the whole army in order to proc +1.
If my math is right ( and often is not) freebooterz trait would allow you to have 10% more chance to hit than bad moons.
Do we have any kind soul that could do the math on that ?

vs T7 it's actually 42% chance to wound on 2+. You get +1(vs vehicle/monster) so S7 vs T7 is 4+. +1 to that=3+. Odds of rolling 7 or less(or 7+) is 58% so rolling 8 or more at 2d6 is 42%.

You get 28% bigger chance(or 12% depending on how you view it). 0.5 vs 0.38. 12% in absolute, 28% in relatives. But biggest issue for me on bad moon is death skull does that generally anyway(you aren't that likely rolling 2+ 1's) but can even reroll 2, 3 and 4(albeit less useful with relic) AND can reroll to wound roll AND damage roll as well. So for me it would be death skull or free boota. And since I don't have freebootas yet my 2 SAG's are in deathskull colours

it was the autocannon mini knights,super killy they are.

as far as deldar,i know of their ability to cancel out a strat, the most i can say to counter that is to deploy my lootas out of sight in and in cover,grots will have to stand on their own.

soon as my turn happens ill mob up (he can cancel that out if he wants,but will most likely want to cancel out another strat since my turns are filled with using many shooting strats),
then with da jump ill get the lootas in a good shooting spot. grots might be dead,but my 1st turn of shooting is important to try to kill as much critical enemy threats as possible. mekguns with kff suport will help,they at least dont rely on strats to be at their shooting.

if i had to guess on how to fight eldar soup,i might suggest maybe an antimeta list. bring units that dont rely on strats and have high toughness and many wounds that can be taken in decent numbers. .whether that be gorkanaights,scraptgets and kff support with traktors. i would suggest possibly bloodaxe, most eldar units can tie your units up in unwanted combats (dont need a gorkanaut to kill infantry). this is just a guess,and its rather anti metta,and i dont expect it to win in an anti knight meta (too much anti tank),but it might do well against eldar if you expect alot of them.

the tournament im going to had more eldar the last time i went,but for the past 3 years ive gone it has been filled with knights. the list im building can hopefully counter any knight list,but it might pull through eldar soup if i play it smart.

unfortunately i cant think of a list that would kill bothknights and eldar soup, but im gambling on this a little, hoping the tournament is close to what its always been, its not even that much of a competitive event,the tournament score is only 1/3rd of the pts,the other 3rds are sportsmanship and painting/presentation (still doesn't discourage the die hard itc pts farmers from attending)..

geargutz wrote:
as far as deldar,i know of their ability to cancel out a strat, the most i can say to counter that is to deploy my lootas out of sight in and in cover,grots will have to stand on their own.

Problem with that is their super speed. They can get things into firing positions fast. and they need to kill 6 models from one and 1 from one and best you have is 9 lootas shooting with strategems. Killing 7 T4 wounds doesn't even require much firepower and with flyers, venoms etc should be pretty hard to avoid that firepower.

tneva82 wrote:

geargutz wrote:
as far as deldar,i know of their ability to cancel out a strat, the most i can say to counter that is to deploy my lootas out of sight in and in cover,grots will have to stand on their own.

Problem with that is their super speed. They can get things into firing positions fast. and they need to kill 6 models from one and 1 from one and best you have is 9 lootas shooting with strategems. Killing 7 T4 wounds doesn't even require much firepower and with flyers, venoms etc should be pretty hard to avoid that firepower.

welp,then im zogged then. dont know what to tell you,ill try it out,see how well i do, though what ill be playing against is pure deldar.

if i encounter eldar soup at the tournament then ill have to accept that loss (still try my hardest).

im not about to completely change my list drastically because of scary eldar soup. we can hope for GW nerfs to eldar,but im guessing that super unlikely,maybe an ork player will find the perfect anti eldarsoup list,but im guessing it will not be as efficient vrs other lists.

so i guess ill have to see how it goes. not much i can realy do. im pretty stubborn in my list building. im just glad that units i like and have been slowly collecting are competitive for once (lootas/mekguns), and im not about to take greentide just to follow the trend of "all da infatry and nutin else",im not a big greentide fan (like i said, im a little stubborn)(the greentide comment is an exaggeration,but its easy to fall into relying on the tried and tested ork boy,im just not a fan of running alot of models,my exception to that is my squig ton of grots of course).

not much i can do that the now competitive models i will be bringing are suddenly ineffective vrs one particular type of list. its going to be like that every edition. its usually eldar,but some army combo is almost unbeatable,and while we got a boost,orks arnt going to have an answer to every OP netlist,and our answer to it most likely wont be effective vrs other more common lists. such is the paper rock scissors way 40k plays,and i try hard to accept that hard fact,and i try to take my beatings as best i can,though its never easy.

I smashed the eldari soup thanks to the freebooterz list from Ben Jurek. Can't recommend it enough. Completely functional without stratagems, a ton of Wounds on tough veichles, KFF for survivability and sooo much good shooting vs T6.
I dunno how would it perform vs a pure knight list that deny the +1, due to low model count, but I m a real fan of the list in any case .