Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Grimskul wrote:


It's those above average rolls that really play an important psychological factor against opponents though, as they'll mainly remember the times you rolled above 10 for strength and you oneshot their centerpiece models. After something like that, I've noticed my opponents overreact in deployment based on where my SAG Mek is, and even make it a priority to try and remove him, making it easy to bait or counter-deploy what he uses to try and get at him.

Well not that you really need that S11+. Especially when you have the +1 to wound warlord trait. First round of shooting. 10 S8 shots vs death company dreadnought. 25 wounds before 6+++. Take that. BOOM! Next caused like 16 wounds to that T8 vindicator. Wounding on 3+ and BOOM! Then 12 wounds to that baal predator.

Turn 4 it finally only got 3 S5 shots against scouts Opponent was like "NOW you rolled bad". Didn't help his mood that his 4 sniper scouts were totally unable to even hurt him. 3+ in cover and he failed to get 6's to wound.

Boommity boom boom boom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:

Nice. I had 3 games with one last weekend. 2/3 games he was amazing rolling S7 or higher. the 2nd game I played and the terrible one, he rolled snake eyes for strength 2 turns in a row. All 3 games and he didn't get an 11 or 12 for Strength. Still managed to wreak havoc though in the games he did well. Ran him as Deathskulls to reroll 1 hit roll and 1 wound roll and 1 damage roll. A couple times I turned a 1 damage on a Carnifex into 6 damage. My opponent was blown by this.

Ditto. And with the warlord trait 5+ to wound is worst I have vs vehicle or monster. So it's mainly bad shots that screw me. That's what command rerolls are for ;-)

And yeah death skull is excelent clan trait for him. Especially with relic SAG as you have the shoot twice strategem from there anyway in case you want it so no need to be bad moon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Hell i HAVNT gotten an 11/12 with my supa sag in a game yet, but my friends know what it does if i do and they still tend to avoid the SAG at all costs.

I got it last time vs ad mech with my non relic SAG. With help of those warglaive was one shotted much to surprise of the ad mech ;-)

Relic is even better for that as less chance of low shots screwing with it. Non relic it's super hard to get 4+ shots and S11+.

Truth. S11+ is more for hitting the REALLY big things (knights) or when you run out of big things and hitting stuff with multiple models. I forget the name of those FW dreads that look like oversized marines but theyre fairly beefy and my SAG still deleted one every time it shot lol
Causing D3 mortal wounds on hit (not wound) and then causing normal damage is just rude. Im glad they changed that from the Index which was no wound rolls, just does D3 mortals. Actually felt like a downgrade for rolling it unless you were hitting a 3++ target (which of course mortal wounds bypass)

True. But with 2d6 shots and +1 to wound anyway the S11+ seems less needed. Seems to be doing great amount of damage even without S11+. S5 I'm alreeady wounding on pretty much any vehicle on 4+ with 1 reroll and then d6 damage's with 1 reroll. With decent number of hits(good thing that 2d6 shots exists) that caused big dent even without mortal wounds.

It's still bit of random as the turn 4 shooting showed on the low end but all in all that relic+warlord trait makes it much more reliable. Albeit that was price of 2 CP and warlord trait so not cheap by any stretch of imagination.

well, yeah its a bummer to not have a trait on the Wartrike or boss on bike but they tend to die shortly after they get combat, for me anyway. So i almost always gave up slay the warlord.
SupaSAG is literally the only warlord option we have that doesnt go into the enemy's face at some point. And is snipe-proof with grot shields. So theres that boon too.
Also i run Bad Moonz because with 2D6 shots i feel the reroll 1s to hit is superior to 1 reroll hit/wound/damage. Personally. I dont have the right models to run multiple small units with kustommegas to properly abuse deathskulls lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
well, yeah its a bummer to not have a trait on the Wartrike or boss on bike but they tend to die shortly after they get combat, for me anyway. So i almost always gave up slay the warlord.
SupaSAG is literally the only warlord option we have that doesnt go into the enemy's face at some point. And is snipe-proof with grot shields. So theres that boon too.
Also i run Bad Moonz because with 2D6 shots i feel the reroll 1s to hit is superior to 1 reroll hit/wound/damage. Personally. I dont have the right models to run multiple small units with kustommegas to properly abuse deathskulls lol

Odds of rolling more than one 1 is pretty low even with 2d6 shots. Even with 6 shots it's not even quaranteed to get ONE let alone multiples(odds are actually less than 70% for getting at least one 1 with 6 dice...). So if you roll 6 or less it's not that uncommon to not be able to reroll even one. And that reroll to wound and damage roll is also pretty sweet. IMO good trade off for MAYBE one reroll. 3+ rerolls with bad moons would be very rare occurance.

I have no kustom megas but power klaws it's great as well and now trying some rokkits on boyz(I have 6 rokkits on paint job plus alternative nob with power klaw AND kombi rokkit. Kombi rokkit is actually priority over rokkit boy as same price as regular rokkit and nob is generally last to die). 55% chance to hit with S8 -2 D3 with reroll to wound isn't that bad for odd 12 points. Also 6++ has been handy and I have actually got mileage out of obsec with characters time to time(need to figure way to mark which weirdboys are deathskulls for this).

And yes warlord being somebody who isn't going to die next round is actually nice side bonus I was bleeding warlord kill vp all the time before.

I'm just going to put this out there because I feel it's worth noting that in the context of an ITC tournement. The ITC secondaries do not favor the Ork armylist, which relies on numerous cheaper, somewhat flimsy units used in large numbers. Whereas the big boogeymen for Orks; Yinnari and Imperial Soup can build lists that exploit or minimize the amount of points the enemy can get their hands on.

Or at least that's my experience when writing and facing lists.

Yeah, in theory if you roll max hits you got 2 rerolls from bad moonz trait.
In theory. My dice never seem to behave that way. I feel like i always roll 1s even when i grab my opponent's dice instead of mine.
Firing 9 SAG shots and getting 5 1s was both hilarious and annoying. Thank god i was bad moonz though lol.

to each their own.

Also yeah i guess it works wonders for PKs, didnt htink about that. The shooty ork in me tends to forget about melee perks of other kultures lol. Im just used to our melee being about as good as it can get without wargear changes. Kind of the reason i think Goff is the lamest kulture...do we really need exploding melee dice when it sacrifices durability or mobility? Nope.

xlDuke wrote:
Just a quick note - you can't use Showin' Off to shoot a Dakkajet twice, the stratagem is only for Infantry units.

For Tau I would say you want to prioritise getting rid of as many Drones as possible as early as you can, after that I would prioritise the Firewarriors and sources of Markerlights. Drones can take damage for other nearby units (Infantry and Battlesuits primarily) and massed Firewarrior combined with his other units can stop your charges dead in their tracks. Dakkajets will be great for killing Firewarrior and Drones if you go first, if you don't go first and you're not out of range they will be gone in the blink of an eye.

Oh, damm! i didnt see that showin off was only for infantry!. My bad. Sorry :(

I will think what you say and tonight i will make some changes to my list then

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, in theory if you roll max hits you got 2 rerolls from bad moonz trait.
In theory. My dice never seem to behave that way. I feel like i always roll 1s even when i grab my opponent's dice instead of mine.
Firing 9 SAG shots and getting 5 1s was both hilarious and annoying. Thank god i was bad moonz though lol.

Well I believe in luck averaging out so it's about averages ;-) And rolling those failed to wounds and then 1 for damage sucks as well.

Also yeah i guess it works wonders for PKs, didnt htink about that. The shooty ork in me tends to forget about melee perks of other kultures lol. Im just used to our melee being about as good as it can get without wargear changes. Kind of the reason i think Goff is the lamest kulture...do we really need exploding melee dice when it sacrifices durability or mobility? Nope.

Generally I favour big choppas with nobs but death skulls are ones where power klaw gets not that insignificant boost. Reroll 1 to hit dice when you have 3-4 is good. Rerolling failed wound roll also adds some extra help and rerolling that d3 generally helps. And having something beefy can help when there's something tough lone models like characters. Sometimes it just ain't possible to cram enough models into combat vs one 2+ save model. Here for example I was almost going to kill that librarian with nob. 4 attacks, got 3 hits(thanks reroll). 3 wounds(thanks reroll since I rolled one 1 to wound...). All I then needed was get 5 on 3d3 with 1 reroll. 2, 1, 1. Reroll 1 and 1...Well that was unlucky that cost me Badruk and 2 smasha guns and gave him maelstrom objective since he cast wings of fire that gave keyword fly for his terminator and he needed to kill something why unit with fly keyword

So yeah. Evil suns I'm leaning toward big choppas, death skulls been adding power klaw nobs to collection. It's not huge thing but I think it's slightly better weapon there if I can afford the points. The clan trait is perfect for power klaw giving reroll potentials on all 3 rolls and taking away 2 of it's weaknesses a bit.

And yeah I'm not fan of goff culture either. Skarboyz have some place but overall I'm ranking them among worst ones. Blood axes I'm even less of fan though. The goffs just help where orks rarely need help anyway and lack delivery method. And if you have like 1 unit enemy can ddeal with that unless they come from deep strike and then that's 58% chance and without rolling higher than 9 you might not even get that much into combat vs worthwhile target against proper deploying.

cody.d. wrote:
I'm just going to put this out there because I feel it's worth noting that in the context of an ITC tournement. The ITC secondaries do not favor the Ork armylist, which relies on numerous cheaper, somewhat flimsy units used in large numbers. Whereas the big boogeymen for Orks; Yinnari and Imperial Soup can build lists that exploit or minimize the amount of points the enemy can get their hands on.

Or at least that's my experience when writing and facing lists.

You're right, there are certainly disadvantages for us in ITC secondaries. We used to get hurt because Reaper (20 models) and Marked for Death (units with >PL7) overlapped, and if you brought 90 boyz in three squads you gave up 7 free points basically. And you're right we give up Butcher's Bill (2 units a turn) really easily as well thanks to the grot squads. It's a major reason why I think Mek Gunz are not extremely viable in ITC, because you almost always give up BB and Kill More, which is brutal. So you're right, you gotta build your list to win on primary and do well enough on secondary, since you're definitely giving up points there. But there are minor adjustments you can make to cover some of this ground, for example leaning toward 30 grot squad sizes and adding a runtherd or making sure there is a warlord close enough to smite for morale might help on some turns. But you're always giving up Reaper, just accept that and don't build around it.

So maybe you make a list that always takes Hold More, so focus on durability and ground coverage (weigh painboys and KFFs highly), or build a glass cannon list that cripples opponents fast enough that you can squeeze out wins with our superior movement (da jump is just better than everything). Glass cannon builds need to have lootas, at least 15, and probably a lot of screen killing (boyz with shootas, dakka jets, etc).

The good news is mate, Reaper no longer overlaps specifically with Marked for Death, that's a huge boon for horde, and probably helps in the boy spam list. We're also gaining some more options in secondaries, there's King of the Hill now (controlling the center), which can stack with recon if you have enough units on the board. However, there are some really interesting lists from orcs that bypass these concerns, like Liam Hackett's ANZ40k list (30 MANz), however the new Gang Busters rules makes this less exciting.

Keep in mind, imperial soup often has guard squads that you can exploit for points or Kill More, Ynnari lacks the board presence to keep you off Hold More... you've got to play to your army's strengths in objective based games dude. Although I'll admit I often have trouble picking secondaries vs Eldar, hopefully there are enough units to consider Butcher's Bill and then you've got a game.

OTOH board control based secondaries looks like you would own.

Well not that it really matters for me. I don't think there's 1 ITC tournamnt here. Here standard tournament scenarios are mix of eternal war+maelstrom+kill points(max gap 6).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last night there was on local whatsup bit of talk among new players and one was mentioning 750 pts knight army. Another said to effect of that's not casual(new player with knights. Basically all he owns).

Well it occured to me that for orks that small point value knights could be actually super EASY to deal with. 750 pts gives you double battallions. 2 weirdboys, relic SAG w/+1 to wound WT, relic claw warboss, 30 boyz, 5x10 grots, 2 smasha guns. Could be even more brutal with 12x10 grots instead.

Good example of how small games have huge effect on balance. I'm struggling to figure how knights could win this list. SAG will be causing damage fairly reliable. Smasha guns also good damage dealer. Warboss with fist of gork will alone nearly kill big knight in average with fight twice(either normally or after dying) and knights struggle to prevent that(especially with da jump).

Would be ashamed to be bringing this one vs knights in that small game for sure!

Would be rather annoying

Anybody can come up with even nastier anti-knight 750 pts list army?-)

On the relic SAG while rolling a 11 or 12 is grand I play plannign for averages so I generally speaking assume the SAG will be str 7 and plan accordingly. This has been helpful as I have yet to roll over a 9 on the thing since the codex was released.

Added analysis of Kult of Speed (by Englishman) and Blitz Brigade (by me) to the first post.

Spoiler: Blitz Brigade sucks.

 Jidmah wrote:
Added analysis of Kult of Speed (by Englishman) and Blitz Brigade (by me) to the first post.

Spoiler: Blitz Brigade sucks.

Well, I think the potentially good thing about the blitz brigade is the "Hold on, boyz!" stratagem. It allows you to move up tankbustas on the board quickly without advancing. It also doesn't have the restriction of da jump, meaning they have to end up over 9" away. Effectively you can pull of T1 "extra stikkbombs" on tankbustas against overzealous knight players. Sure, it's a CP investment and those tankbustas are going to be in a rough spot after that but that play might come in handy at times. Not generally worth the detachment, but a potential new wrinkle to your game if you like running tankbustas.

literally the only reason to use the Dread Waaagh is supa-sag + another shoot twice stratagem that works on morkanauts and said supasag.
Rest of that detachment is nothing to mention. But those two things are seriously awesome and easily green text worthy.

Blitz Brigade i dont even think would be that good if battlewagons were better. Lot of it forces you to keep an ~80pt model inside the wagon for a buff you could get just by running Bad Moonz in the first place if you REALLY wanted that reroll. Ive been tempted to run it purely for the Hang On Ladz! but its one of those things where when you make the list you kinda groan at it thinking "this....feels really weak..."

Who the hell would EVER use the stompa one? Three stompas....which means game big enough for the enemy to field macro weapons easily and just shred them even faster than they already do w/o macros. Even if stompas went to like 550pts each i doubt i'd use this detachment.

PiñaColada wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Added analysis of Kult of Speed (by Englishman) and Blitz Brigade (by me) to the first post.

Spoiler: Blitz Brigade sucks.

Well, I think the potentially good thing about the blitz brigade is the "Hold on, boyz!" stratagem. It allows you to move up tankbustas on the board quickly without advancing. It also doesn't have the restriction of da jump, meaning they have to end up over 9" away. Effectively you can pull of T1 "extra stikkbombs" on tankbustas against overzealous knight players. Sure, it's a CP investment and those tankbustas are going to be in a rough spot after that but that play might come in handy at times. Not generally worth the detachment, but a potential new wrinkle to your game if you like running tankbustas.

Not really, since the wagon moves 12" and the tank bustas need to be deployed wholly within 3" if it, so you still end up somewhere midfield.
In addition, the tank bustas need to start the game without a transport, and we all know how that will end if the knight player goes first. If they are inside a transport, why not just stay inside and shoot? Knight's can't shoot a transport and its passengers in the same phase, so I'd rather take my chances with that.
I also seriously doubt that a knight player wouldn't deploy as far back as possible when there is the possibility of a bonebreaker charging the knight turn 1.

I have tried using it multiple times (my army is a blitz brigade), the best uses are catapulting a mob of boyz up the field for T2 charges or switching flanks.

The stratagem would be awesome if
a) it weren't limited to BATTLEWAGON - you cannot use it with a bonebreaka
b) it were a basic stratagem rather than one you need to unlock first for a 1 CP even if you might not need it.

 Jidmah wrote:

In addition, the tank bustas need to start the game without a transport, and we all know how that will end if the knight player goes first.

What kind of terrain people are playing where you can't hide even one unit?

Here people can hide knight for that matter. One battlewagon goes into hiding easily.

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Added analysis of Kult of Speed (by Englishman) and Blitz Brigade (by me) to the first post.

Spoiler: Blitz Brigade sucks.

Well, I think the potentially good thing about the blitz brigade is the "Hold on, boyz!" stratagem. It allows you to move up tankbustas on the board quickly without advancing. It also doesn't have the restriction of da jump, meaning they have to end up over 9" away. Effectively you can pull of T1 "extra stikkbombs" on tankbustas against overzealous knight players. Sure, it's a CP investment and those tankbustas are going to be in a rough spot after that but that play might come in handy at times. Not generally worth the detachment, but a potential new wrinkle to your game if you like running tankbustas.

Not really, since the wagon moves 12" and the tank bustas need to be deployed wholly within 3" if it, so you still end up somewhere midfield.
In addition, the tank bustas need to start the game without a transport, and we all know how that will end if the knight player goes first. If they are inside a transport, why not just stay inside and shoot? Knight's can't shoot a transport and its passengers in the same phase, so I'd rather take my chances with that.
I also seriously doubt that a knight player wouldn't deploy as far back as possible when there is the possibility of a bonebreaker charging the knight turn 1.

I have tried using it multiple times (my army is a blitz brigade), the best uses are catapulting a mob of boyz up the field for T2 charges or switching flanks.

The stratagem would be awesome if
a) it weren't limited to BATTLEWAGON - you cannot use it with a bonebreaka
b) it were a basic stratagem rather than one you need to unlock first for a 1 CP even if you might not need it.

While I do mostly agree with your sentiment, there are a couple of things to consider.

1, You need to disembark with every model within 3", not wholly within. Meaning if the tip of each of those 32's are within 3" they're fine. That buys you another 1.25".
2, You can still have your tankbustas in a trukk to start of the game. Seeing as the strat doesn't count as embarking, they can dismebark the trukk and jump on the battlewagon.

Again, it's a niche case but you're only paying 1CP to gain access to it. Using a trukk to soak up overwatch/ block movement/ take objectives means that it's not a big loss to change its original purpose. I've never used this strategy myself so I obviously can't vouch for it but there have been several times where someone moved up their Gallant/Lancer/Paladin/Errant within distance where this combo could go off.

Would it be massively improved if the suggestions you had for changes were implemented? Yes. But this gives you back some flexibility if someone blasts your trukk full of tankbustas T1 (obviously place that trukk somewhere where they can dismebark out of LoS if possible). So if your running a full unit of trukkbustas/2 smaller ones it might be worth looking into seeing as those guys are not CP dependant generally

Odds of rolling at least one 1 are pretty high actually. Especially since 6s grnerate additional shots that can roll 1s. And re-rolled ones can become 6s that generate additional shots thst can also become ones.

After playing a sag mek in a tourney i can tell thst 2-3 ones are a norm. But re-rolling wounds and damage might even things out. I think it mostly depends on the rest of the list.

Okay I know this should be in ymdc but while we are discussing showin off and the souped up shokka. How does that work? Do you reroll strength or Is the strength set. Since a new target could be chosen I would assume strength has to be rerolled. I think I may have just answered my question but it doesn't hurt to back it up.

I would also consider showin off after more dakka on the Relic SaG. That way you can double your amount of auto hits/ extra DDD shots.



Edit: While we get into ITC and mission variance. I am not a fan of the ITC missions as they can help those armies that excel at spamming the strongest options in an army. I have been playing the new CA2018 missions and man have they made for some fun games. Much more so than the original Eternal war missions. Capping VP at the end of every BR or even at the end of each turn makes for more fluffy lists and I believe actually helps with our army. Plus in a few games both ways one player was going to be tabled but by turn 5 you had to hope that you had enough VP or the game continues because tabling didn't end the game. Some of the missions conditions in ITC just don't favor Orks has highly as other armies.

Random stats for attacks are rolled each time you make attack. Ergo shoot twice, both shots and s are rolled again.

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

In addition, the tank bustas need to start the game without a transport, and we all know how that will end if the knight player goes first.

What kind of terrain people are playing where you can't hide even one unit?

Here people can hide knight for that matter. One battlewagon goes into hiding easily.

Hiding the battlewagon means it's not deployed at the edge of your deployment zone and/or it needs to go around terrain making the tactic even more useless.

I also was referring to the tank bustas which can be shot at and die from any number of LOS ignoring weapons, plus helverines can usually move around the terrain blocking LOS and gun them down.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

In addition, the tank bustas need to start the game without a transport, and we all know how that will end if the knight player goes first.

What kind of terrain people are playing where you can't hide even one unit?

Here people can hide knight for that matter. One battlewagon goes into hiding easily.

Hiding the battlewagon means it's not deployed at the edge of your deployment zone and/or it needs to go around terrain making the tactic even more useless.

I also was referring to the tank bustas which can be shot at and die from any number of LOS ignoring weapons, plus helverines can usually move around the terrain blocking LOS and gun them down.

right!

motors, earthshaker cannons, smart missile systems and anythign else that can blind fire will be prioritizing tank bustas our of a vehicle.

Tankbustas are such a lethal unit that i wouldnt even blame people burning bigger, overkilling weapons on them to finish them off.
I have never had them survive out of a transport even half a shooting phase. Even when my KFF on bike happened to be nearby lol

PiñaColada wrote:
While I do mostly agree with your sentiment, there are a couple of things to consider.

1, You need to disembark with every model within 3", not wholly within. Meaning if the tip of each of those 32's are within 3" they're fine. That buys you another 1.25".

Tank bustas are on 25mm bases, so you don't even get an additional inch from that, plus it only applies to the first row, which is 4-5 models.

2, You can still have your tankbustas in a trukk to start of the game. Seeing as the strat doesn't count as embarking, they can dismebark the trukk and jump on the battlewagon.

Why wouldn't you just drive the trukk down the field? You are basically spending three CP to gain less than 4 inches and expose your tank bustas to anti-infantry fire.

Again, it's a niche case but you're only paying 1CP to gain access to it. Using a trukk to soak up overwatch/ block movement/ take objectives means that it's not a big loss to change its original purpose. I've never used this strategy myself so I obviously can't vouch for it

The only reason why I actually bothered to write the analysis myself is because I have tried to make the blitz brigade work multiple times as I've been running battle wagon bash lists since I started playing orks. Even without lootas, you have no trouble burning through a brigade worth of CP by turn 2, so every single one is valuable. We have so many great stratagems, why should I waste my CP on something so situational? You also need a battlewagon with some stuff inside plus ten tank bustas plus a trukk which is a lot of points dedicated to killing just half a knight if it decides to rotate ion shield or has the 2+ armor relic.

but there have been several times where someone moved up their Gallant/Lancer/Paladin/Errant within distance where this combo could go off.

If you are running any kind of battlewagons, you are running at least one bonebreaker, if not more. You should also be running a warboss on a bike and/or a wartrike and maybe some other stuff. If a knight moves up the field to meet your army, you have not shortage of stuff that can assault it first turn and quite possibly smash it to smithereens if you invest some CP for ramming speed, fighting again or for the warboss to jump back up.

Would it be massively improved if the suggestions you had for changes were implemented? Yes. But this gives you back some flexibility if someone blasts your trukk full of tankbustas T1 (obviously place that trukk somewhere where they can dismebark out of LoS if possible). So if your running a full unit of trukkbustas/2 smaller ones it might be worth looking into seeing as those guys are not CP dependant generally

You need to have a battlewagon in the first place and it needs to be alive to do this. You need to pay 1 CP upfront to do it, even if you never need it or your BW dies turn 1. You are pretty limited in what units you can move and where you can move them because that battlewagon and its passengers will be stuck there as well.
That's just too many IFs to spend a CP in case you might actually gain something from it. Even if you do, I highly doubt that those 3 CP couldn't have been used better.

If there were no costs attached to the stratagem and you could just pop it whenever the situation comes up that would be awesome. But as it is you need to make a huge investment with a big chance of getting absolutely nothing in return.

Oh, that's for sure going to happen if your opponent has any weapons not requiring LoS. But the blitz brigade, such as any specialist detachment, is a stratagem to unlock. That surely means you get to choose after you've seen your opponents army, no?

Meaning you don't unlock it if the enemy has plenty of supersonic fliers or other weapons that threaten tankbustas outside of LoS.

My point being, that detachment is still not good. But in some cases it might not be a bad idea to unlock it, just in case. It just depends on who you're facing and what your own army composition is

Edit: But I'll defer to your knowledge. If you've tried the detachment and can't make it work, then I can see why that would be that case. It's just a shame that we got 4 detachments and the only good thing we really got was a relic from one of them

 koooaei wrote:
Odds of rolling at least one 1 are pretty high actually. Especially since 6s grnerate additional shots that can roll 1s. And re-rolled ones can become 6s that generate additional shots thst can also become ones.

After playing a sag mek in a tourney i can tell thst 2-3 ones are a norm. But re-rolling wounds and damage might even things out. I think it mostly depends on the rest of the list.

It's still not that much. But anyway enough theoryhammering on that I made quick program to simulate 10000 attacks for both traits. Bad moon got consistently 5.0-5.1 hits averaged from those 10000 rolls(ran that 10000 multiple times just for sure). Deathskull got 4.7-4.8. So about fifth of a hit more in average but you lose the reroll to wound and damage and 6++ and obsec. Albeit last one isn't that big deal with static artirelly but occasionally could help if he stands on objective.

I think I'll trade fifth of a hit for 2 more rerolls.

How about Freebooterz? I feel like a +1 to hit might be better than rerolls. If you can proc the +1, that's your SAG hitting on 4s, and the Dakkax3 additional shots will also hit on 4s.

tneva82 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Odds of rolling at least one 1 are pretty high actually. Especially since 6s grnerate additional shots that can roll 1s. And re-rolled ones can become 6s that generate additional shots thst can also become ones.

After playing a sag mek in a tourney i can tell thst 2-3 ones are a norm. But re-rolling wounds and damage might even things out. I think it mostly depends on the rest of the list.

It's still not that much. But anyway enough theoryhammering on that I made quick program to simulate 10000 attacks for both traits. Bad moon got consistently 5.0-5.1 hits averaged from those 10000 rolls(ran that 10000 multiple times just for sure). Deathskull got 4.7-4.8. So about fifth of a hit more in average but you lose the reroll to wound and damage and 6++ and obsec. Albeit last one isn't that big deal with static artirelly but occasionally could help if he stands on objective.

I think I'll trade fifth of a hit for 2 more rerolls.

Rerolling a wound and damage roll is where he shines especially with the +1 to wound against vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mhalko1 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Odds of rolling at least one 1 are pretty high actually. Especially since 6s grnerate additional shots that can roll 1s. And re-rolled ones can become 6s that generate additional shots thst can also become ones.

After playing a sag mek in a tourney i can tell thst 2-3 ones are a norm. But re-rolling wounds and damage might even things out. I think it mostly depends on the rest of the list.

It's still not that much. But anyway enough theoryhammering on that I made quick program to simulate 10000 attacks for both traits. Bad moon got consistently 5.0-5.1 hits averaged from those 10000 rolls(ran that 10000 multiple times just for sure). Deathskull got 4.7-4.8. So about fifth of a hit more in average but you lose the reroll to wound and damage and 6++ and obsec. Albeit last one isn't that big deal with static artirelly but occasionally could help if he stands on objective.

I think I'll trade fifth of a hit for 2 more rerolls.

Rerolling a wound and damage roll is where he shines especially with the +1 to wound against vehicles. Plus the DS reroll to hit works on 2s, 3s, 4s whereas if you are badmoons and those come up you are screwed.

 flandarz wrote:
How about Freebooterz? I feel like a +1 to hit might be better than rerolls. If you can proc the +1, that's your SAG hitting on 4s, and the Dakkax3 additional shots will also hit on 4s.

Good idea.

BTW added for fun ability to calculate average wounds caused all together. Against knight I'm getting:

bad moons: average damage(after 5++ and including mortals) 7,78
death skulls: 9.85
Freeboota: 9.3-9.5.

So the difference isn't going to be earth shattering particularly between death skulls and freeboota. Bad moon is bit less but of course HQ for loota detachment has value of it's own.

Could have made coding error of course. This was quick python code so don't sue me if they are wrong

I'll add bit more ease to switch things around to try vs different things but now back to painting evil suns.

Added fun(can't resist!). Checked how many times he one shots. From 10,000 attempts 880 times is where result generally floats around. (btw realized one mistake in code. If it causes more than 24 damage it still counts that for average damage total...)