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Uh, 6 warbikers fires 36 shots not 18 shots.
They have slugga/choppa/2x dakkaguns. Thats 6 S5 AP0 1D shots not 3.

Do not use Battlescribe for rules it has a lot of typos or flatout incorrect statements. It shows them as only 1 gun, which is flatout wrong. It also shows the SAG does something completely different on 11+ strength than we have been praising it for doing the last few pages lol. I havnt noticed any point problems which is all i care to use it for.

Okay better. Forgot that one. Not living dictionary. Still worse T3 and T4 than 30 shoota boyz while being worse in h2h and softer vs return attacks. So for chaff clearing I would still take shoota boyz over bikes.

Well surely 9 bikes (207 points) are more effective than 30 boyz (210 points) with shooting against t4 targets?

Not saying that's the only factor, and bikes are indeed quite mediocre, but damage per point against t4 should still be in their favour (ever so slighlty, assuming my quick headmath is correct)

bikes primarily just suffer from S6+ AP-1 or AP-2 2-3damage shots are just way too easily spammed, its easy to have 20+ shots of such a weapon type in almost any army without really trying and they mulch the non-vehicle/monster multiwound models.

Bikes aren't good by any stretch and they have very....glaring weaknesses. They aren't entirely without value though.

They offer another first turn threat for the enemy to deal with (along with Da Jumped Boyz). Against most targets they are one of the only Ork units that actually deal more damage with their guns than their fists. Their combined shooting and melee can bring down a decent amount of chaff. They have T5 and a 4+ (that can be buffed to a 3+ if you don't get first turn) so can be weirdly survivable if the enemy doesn't have anything convenient in close proximity.

Like our entire army, they must be used in concert with other units to even be slightly effective, but they can be effective. 30ish Boyz and 12 Bikes is going to hurt most screens on the first turn and they don't care about abilities like Forewarned or Auspex that seem to give my Jumped Boyz a bad time.

PiñaColada wrote:
Well surely 9 bikes (207 points) are more effective than 30 boyz (210 points) with shooting against t4 targets?

Not saying that's the only factor, and bikes are indeed quite mediocre, but damage per point against t4 should still be in their favour (ever so slighlty, assuming my quick headmath is correct)

True. Barely though. 5.7361 scouts with shoota boyz vs 7 with bikes. Weee! Worse in h2h and very soft targets for enemy attacks to take down.

I'll take boyz any day for chaff clearing. Shooting difference isn't big but h2h and survivability is. Also better strategem for boyz with fight again and endless tide. Bikes get -1 to hit...In your turn so if opponent goes first not helping and enemy can also just shoot something else making wasted CP.

Well yeah, they have plenty of drawbacks. Plasma spam being chief among them IMO. They're also pretty darn weak in CC per point considering they're just boyz but cost more than 3x more whereas a SM biker is more akin to a 50% markup. Although to be fair base marines are a bit overcosted, so had they been correctly costed (10-11 pts) then a bike is roughly the price of 2 marines. I'm not saying that ork warbikers should be 14ppm but 18-19 seems alot more palatable. An extra attack on the charge would not go amiss either.

Hopefully we'll see some ork changes in the spring FAQ and seeing as adepticon is starting in just two days then the faq might be here in like two weeks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

True. Barely though. 5.7361 scouts with shoota boyz vs 7 with bikes. Weee! Worse in h2h and very soft targets for enemy attacks to take down.

I'll take boyz any day for chaff clearing. Shooting difference isn't big but h2h and survivability is. Also better strategem for boyz with fight again and endless tide. Bikes get -1 to hit...In your turn so if opponent goes first not helping and enemy can also just shoot something else making wasted CP.

Sounds about right, both in math and assessment. I'm not saying bikes are good, or preferable over boyz, but just wanted to point that out.

imo bikers should just have the flat -1 to hit and not be dependant on that silly stratagem.
Why? Exhaust clouds has always been a rule for them. Whered it go? They lost a defining rule theyve had for eons and it wasnt shifted to anything else either.

They may do better in a mechanized army. Alongside a large number of the new buggies, trucks or battlewagons. If the bikes are your only heavy units yeah sure they'll attract the weapons that counter them. But use them to support things like nobs in vehicles, heavy hitters that are wasted bashing medium infantry and they'd likely make their points back.

Additionally when comparing them to one unit of shootaboyz that can be jumped in they're a bit meh. But you can simply move and/or advance the bikers in, letting you move multiple units for that target saturation that orks live or die by.

cody.d. wrote:
They may do better in a mechanized army. Alongside a large number of the new buggies, trucks or battlewagons. If the bikes are your only heavy units yeah sure they'll attract the weapons that counter them. But use them to support things like nobs in vehicles, heavy hitters that are wasted bashing medium infantry and they'd likely make their points back.

Additionally when comparing them to one unit of shootaboyz that can be jumped in they're a bit meh. But you can simply move and/or advance the bikers in, letting you move multiple units for that target saturation that orks live or die by.

I mean at least both myself and An Actual Englishman play highly mechanised speed freeks armies. I'm sure they do a bit better in armies such as the ones we play but they're still just devastatingly mediocre. You simply end up paying too much for what you get, they can still do work but most of the time they end up nowhere near earning their points back (either from actual killing or whatever vague strategical value you'd ascribe tying stuff up and scoring objectives).

Rokkit vs KMB -- is there a clear winner here on things like DeffKoptas and Grot Tanks? I plan to magnetize the gun on my Grot Tanks, but that will be harder to do on the koptas.

I'm planning to run mostly freebootas, but I'm not above rolling in the grot tanks under a Deathskull banner (along with a SAG mech maybe?) if it makes sense.

Updated my Freebooterz list. I think it should run better than the last one.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/773313.page#10393645

 Emicrania wrote:
Back to tactics for a second here
I was discussing with a friend last time and, we played orks vs orks, very fun match.
He thought of playing 2 unit of stormboyz, one of 5 and one of 20, field the 5 unit and DS the second, T2 auto advance, so move 18" ( 20" if ES), than congaline to 9", if you get closer to the enemy line and DS+ mob up with the other 20. Now you have 25 stormboyz (hopefully with warpath) with a very possible charge in range , anything from 3 to 6".
The idea is to be able to clear some chaff or seep thru enemy line and possibly block one or two artillery/tanks from firing

Are you sure you can mob up a unit with a deepstriking one? Both actions happen at the end of the movement phase.

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Rokkit vs KMB -- is there a clear winner here on things like DeffKoptas and Grot Tanks? I plan to magnetize the gun on my Grot Tanks, but that will be harder to do on the koptas.

I'm planning to run mostly freebootas, but I'm not above rolling in the grot tanks under a Deathskull banner (along with a SAG mech maybe?) if it makes sense.

With dethskull rerolls plasma all the way for me. Less overheats, higher average damage than 3. But grot tanks have gretchin keyword = no clan trait for them.


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 koooaei wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Back to tactics for a second here
I was discussing with a friend last time and, we played orks vs orks, very fun match.
He thought of playing 2 unit of stormboyz, one of 5 and one of 20, field the 5 unit and DS the second, T2 auto advance, so move 18" ( 20" if ES), than congaline to 9", if you get closer to the enemy line and DS+ mob up with the other 20. Now you have 25 stormboyz (hopefully with warpath) with a very possible charge in range , anything from 3 to 6".
The idea is to be able to clear some chaff or seep thru enemy line and possibly block one or two artillery/tanks from firing

Are you sure you can mob up a unit with a deepstriking one? Both actions happen at the end of the movement phase.

Arqument for "yes". Both happens end of movement phase so sequence rule kicks in and you choose order. Arqument for no relies on this:

Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that are used ‘during your Movement phase’?A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.

but strategem doesn't happen "during your movement phase".

Doesn't that mean that they both happen at the end? Like if DS 3 unit , won't they arrive in that time period, but still one after another?
I read it like as you deploy one DS unit after the other, so you DS and mob up, one action after the other.
Or?

Yea, my understanding is that since both events happen "at the end of the movement phase" the controlling player gets to decide in which order they are resolved.

So at the end of your movement turn you can indeed mob up with a deep strike unit.

Also, why the hell do I have a Norwegian flag now ?!?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea, my understanding is that since both events happen "at the end of the movement phase" the controlling player gets to decide in which order they are resolved.

So at the end of your movement turn you can indeed mob up with a deep strike unit.

I'm pretty sure that there is a FAQ somewhere preventing Death Guard from using Cloud of Flies on Blightlord terminators arriving from deep strike - as that was a tournament-winning strategy that got axed this way. Cloud of Flies is also used at the end of the movement phase.

It is a nice little trick and I would love to see the look on the face of an opponent when that 'little squad of five Stormboyz' suddenly turns out to be a big mob...and comming to get him.

Works best when you rund multiple MSU units across the board first turn. But still very situational.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea, my understanding is that since both events happen "at the end of the movement phase" the controlling player gets to decide in which order they are resolved.

So at the end of your movement turn you can indeed mob up with a deep strike unit.

I'm pretty sure that there is a FAQ somewhere preventing Death Guard from using Cloud of Flies on Blightlord terminators arriving from deep strike - as that was a tournament-winning strategy that got axed this way. Cloud of Flies is also used at the end of the movement phase.

E - CoF is not used at the end of the movement phase, it's used 'during your' [movement phase].

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea, my understanding is that since both events happen "at the end of the movement phase" the controlling player gets to decide in which order they are resolved.

So at the end of your movement turn you can indeed mob up with a deep strike unit.

I'm pretty sure that there is a FAQ somewhere preventing Death Guard from using Cloud of Flies on Blightlord terminators arriving from deep strike - as that was a tournament-winning strategy that got axed this way. Cloud of Flies is also used at the end of the movement phase.

Probably refering to the FAQ entry I quoted but that applies to "during movement phase". Mob up is done at the end of movement phase. Blightlords don't arrive during movement phase but at the end of movement phase so that's blocked but so far haven't found nothing to say mob up would be covered by same strategem.

GW writing!

I mean, if you wanna go bananas, you can deploy 10 stormboyz in a battlewagon, move it or advance it in cover or simply stay still on the border of deployment.
Disembark 3" move+ autoadvance 18" (20" ES), mob up with 30 stormboyz, warpath.
Now you have 40 (-1/2 MW from autoadvance) 21/23" up your enemy face. Than remember that you can move EVERYWHERE YOU WANT during the charge. Now you can backtrack to grab that objective and be in Warboss breaking heads range. Than pile in combat and consolidate to block that nasty backline.
I'll try it this weekend, we LL see what happens

 Emicrania wrote:
I mean, if you wanna go bananas, you can deploy 10 stormboyz in a battlewagon, move it or advance it in cover or simply stay still on the border of deployment.
Disembark 3" move+ autoadvance 18" (20" ES), mob up with 30 stormboyz, warpath.
Now you have 40 (-1/2 MW from autoadvance) 21/23" up your enemy face. Than remember that you can move EVERYWHERE YOU WANT during the charge. Now you can backtrack to grab that objective and be in Warboss breaking heads range. Than pile in combat and consolidate to block that nasty backline.
I'll try it this weekend, we LL see what happens

Yeah well that's what I'll be planning to do next week when I try first version of list for competive tournament.

death skull battallion:

relic SAG
weirdboy
3x10 grots
3xscrapjet
2xshock jump

evil sun battallion:

warboss W/relic klaw
weirdboy
3x30 boyz, all with big choppa and choppa nob
30xstormboyz w/big choppa
10xstormboyz w/big choppa
smasha gun

Evil sun warboss advances, then 30 stormboyz ensuring they are within warboss aura range and then 10 will swoosh in max chaining toward big mob, then mob up, charge up. Only 10 checks for mortal wounds.

Does anyone else now feel like GW just wrote our codex and thought

"Good enough" and most of that was spent on stratagems instead of making our codex balanced or playable for most of our units.

If you had to rank the top 3 units in the codex what would they be? Please include stratagems and tactics in your opinions, thanks! I know its hard to do that these days with all the buffs but if anything just pretend its a combo if it involves multiple units.

1) Mek Gunz (Smashas specifically). Obvious choice. Got solid range, good damage, about the best BS you'll find in Orkz, and cheap as balls. No Stratagems, but with a unit this good, you don't need any.

2) Grots. Garbage on their own, but whether filling Battalions for CP, hopping on Objectives, bubblewrapping, or Grot Shielding, they have a lot of purposes beyond what might be obvious. Also crazy cheap.

3) Bonebreaker. A bit on the expensive side, but it's a powerhouse and crazy durable. Couple with Evil Sunz and Ramming Speed to get this bad boy into the thick of CC, where it really shines. As a Transport, it can also bring along some Infantry with it, and if it gets taken out, then can Loot It for better Saves.

I played again this evening.

1750 vs Ulthwe Eldar.

Our warbikes are fething awful. No AP on their weapons is a problem, they just don't hit very hard. Even with weight of numbers. Their bases are unwieldy so its unlikely every model in a 12 man squad makes it into combat.

Our buggies are trash - SJD managed to do 2 wounds to a war walker before being removed by low strength shots. Why they gave our buggies such a price tag and a 4+ save is beyond me.

My opponent could see the smoke plume of my weird boy with his sniper autarch and killed him first round.

Next round he helped finish a KFF big Mek.

Once the support characters go, and they really aren't hard to remove at all, out army just implodes. Its really, really poor.

I just keep telling myself that the buggies are going to get a points reduction, over and over again, every time I look at my rukkatruck sqigbuggy, I tell myself your time will come.

Hopefully sooner rather than later.

russellmoo wrote:
I just keep telling myself that the buggies are going to get a points reduction, over and over again, every time I look at my rukkatruck sqigbuggy, I tell myself your time will come.

Hopefully sooner rather than later.

It winds me up no end that CSM players are lamenting the 12W of the Lord discordant when you compare his abilities and stats to any of the Ork buggies. It's like night and day.

How they pointed him at 160 and a squig buggy at 140 is baffling.

 CKO wrote:
If you had to rank the top 3 units in the codex what would they be? Please include stratagems and tactics in your opinions, thanks! I know its hard to do that these days with all the buffs but if anything just pretend its a combo if it involves multiple units.

The suggestions by Flandarz are good but I'd also check out the first page of this thread. I feel we've (primarily Jidmah) done a pretty good job of breaking down ork units to something easier to grasp. At least as a first step before choosing what to look into more closely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

russellmoo wrote:
I just keep telling myself that the buggies are going to get a points reduction, over and over again, every time I look at my rukkatruck sqigbuggy, I tell myself your time will come.

Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Well, Adepticon starts today and ends at the end of March. Hopefully we get some indication of what they're doing during the event. Even if they don't the FAQ shouldn't be more than two weeks away, tops. If they don't fix any of the Ork stuff in that, then I'll be crying manly ork tears