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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I played again this evening.

1750 vs Ulthwe Eldar.

Our warbikes are fething awful. No AP on their weapons is a problem, they just don't hit very hard. Even with weight of numbers. Their bases are unwieldy so its unlikely every model in a 12 man squad makes it into combat.

Our buggies are trash - SJD managed to do 2 wounds to a war walker before being removed by low strength shots. Why they gave our buggies such a price tag and a 4+ save is beyond me.

My opponent could see the smoke plume of my weird boy with his sniper autarch and killed him first round.

Next round he helped finish a KFF big Mek.

Once the support characters go, and they really aren't hard to remove at all, out army just implodes. Its really, really poor.

I know your pain - be happy your opponent was Ulthwe though, my regular eldar opponent is allaitioc (actually has been since 4th edition!) and not only do you get -50% shooting on most of your army, but he can bring Illic Nightspear on top of the sniper Autarch. With the help of 3-6 units of rangers your are sure to lose all your characters by turn 2.

They really need to fix the sniper thing; either that or they take the turds that write the eldari codex and give them a choice, either the start writing codexes like that for everyone or the wheel.
As breaking on the wheel.

I prefer the imagery of a warboss standing behind them and hitting them with an actual trukk wheel whenever they mess up.

I think just letting all characters (excluding the mounted ones) have a personal grot assistant of some sort would help quite a bit. The grot oiler is a nifty little fella but only meks can take him. Also, MANZ should be able to take an ammo runt per 3 of them.

Give the weirdboy a 5++ and all other characters at least a 4+ save. I'm all for cheap characters being squishy but the mini-mek feels excessively so, considering he's not that cheap. As an example the Admech Cybernetica datasmith is 12 points more expensive but has 1 more wound, is better in CC (probably sort of equal in shooting), a 2+/5++ and can also repair. He's considered pretty good at best

Maybe the Mek with KFF in Megaarmour or the Morkanaut is the solution to sniping the Meks. The weirdboys on the other hand are another business.... :(

throwing a quick nod to Boss Zagstruk. I have been using him as a deep striking countermeasure. I do not take him with a unit of stormboys, rather as a single HQ slot for 88 points.

His missile rarely does anything but can chip the paint on medium vehicles or peel some wounds off of infantry if lucky. slugga is a slugga.. i mean shoot it but don't expect it to do anything, take a shot every time it hits and you will surely be sober most games.

His great strength though is just having a hard hitting character ready to deep strike it turn 2 or 3. 3 str 8 ap -3 D D3 attacks and 4 str 6 ap 0 attacks all exploding on 6's. he hits pretty hard and punches above his weightclass in points. Combine with a 18 inch movement before a charge and you have a zippy little hard hitting git.

I have had several games where being able to jump in their back field and only needing to place one model base resulted in sneaking into the one spot he fits. then he just starts tearing into important stuff or picking off sniper units, or even just clearing some chaff and sitting out of LOS on an objective collecting points as the opponent who just witnessed it shred a squad does not want to send anything over to deal with it. he has a 4+ and 5+++ with W6 so is somewhat durable. Before dropping him I have lootas and dakkajets concentrate on wiping anything with indirect fire like mortar teams that could pose a threat to him hiding out.

Combine with a weirdboy the jumping a large unit of boys to redeploy and you can surprise an opponent or rather do the unexpected and have a character and large boys squad zip into an unprepared position left open durring deployment if you finished placing first. .

PiñaColada wrote:
I think just letting all characters (excluding the mounted ones) have a personal grot assistant of some sort would help quite a bit. The grot oiler is a nifty little fella but only meks can take him. Also, MANZ should be able to take an ammo runt per 3 of them.

Give the weirdboy a 5++ and all other characters at least a 4+ save. I'm all for cheap characters being squishy but the mini-mek feels excessively so, considering he's not that cheap. As an example the Admech Cybernetica datasmith is 12 points more expensive but has 1 more wound, is better in CC (probably sort of equal in shooting), a 2+/5++ and can also repair. He's considered pretty good at best

Just for comparison, Death Guard support characters are 4W/T5/3+/5+++ and costs 55-60 points, and that very same eldar list manages to kill about two per turn.
A Waaagh! Banner nob is 77, a Big Mek is 75-80, a painboy is 65 and a Weirdboy is 62.

So, compared to the already mediocre Death Guard characters, which are much, much more survivable to sniper fire, our characters are about 30 points above what they should cost. The only one which is fine is the weirdboy, the comparable Death Guard Character is 110 points.

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I think just letting all characters (excluding the mounted ones) have a personal grot assistant of some sort would help quite a bit. The grot oiler is a nifty little fella but only meks can take him. Also, MANZ should be able to take an ammo runt per 3 of them.

Give the weirdboy a 5++ and all other characters at least a 4+ save. I'm all for cheap characters being squishy but the mini-mek feels excessively so, considering he's not that cheap. As an example the Admech Cybernetica datasmith is 12 points more expensive but has 1 more wound, is better in CC (probably sort of equal in shooting), a 2+/5++ and can also repair. He's considered pretty good at best

Just for comparison, Death Guard support characters are 4W/T5/3+/5+++ and costs 55-60 points, and that very same eldar list manages to kill about two per turn.
A Waaagh! Banner nob is 77, a Big Mek is 75-80, a painboy is 65 and a Weirdboy is 62.

So, compared to the already mediocre Death Guard characters, which are much, much more survivable to sniper fire, our characters are about 30 points above what they should cost. The only one which is fine is the weirdboy, the comparable Death Guard Character is 110 points.

I get what you're saying but death guard characters being durable is sort of their thing. I don't have a problem with snipers in general (as in I don't hate them, my characters still die to them every once in a while obviously). A 4+ save on everyone along with significant price cuts on a few of them and I'd be happy with that. Our characters are a bit squishier than SM ones and for snipers to be at all useful they need to be able to threat the at least somewhat tougher characters meaning our guys will be susceptible. That's fine as long as we're not overpaying for them, which we currently are. So improve saves, bring down price and let every character have the option of a personal grot shield to tank a wound and we're golden IMO.

I still feel like the waaagh energy should give the weirdboy a 5++, he's 62 points and -super- easy to kill. Any daemon player can attest to a 5++ isn't some game changing bulwark, but it'd help out every now and then.

Edit: The eliminators scare me a bit however. Those mortis rounds that don't require LoS (my primary defense against snipers) could prove troublesome. Haven't faced any yet though.

PiñaColada wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I think just letting all characters (excluding the mounted ones) have a personal grot assistant of some sort would help quite a bit. The grot oiler is a nifty little fella but only meks can take him. Also, MANZ should be able to take an ammo runt per 3 of them.

Give the weirdboy a 5++ and all other characters at least a 4+ save. I'm all for cheap characters being squishy but the mini-mek feels excessively so, considering he's not that cheap. As an example the Admech Cybernetica datasmith is 12 points more expensive but has 1 more wound, is better in CC (probably sort of equal in shooting), a 2+/5++ and can also repair. He's considered pretty good at best

Just for comparison, Death Guard support characters are 4W/T5/3+/5+++ and costs 55-60 points, and that very same eldar list manages to kill about two per turn.
A Waaagh! Banner nob is 77, a Big Mek is 75-80, a painboy is 65 and a Weirdboy is 62.

So, compared to the already mediocre Death Guard characters, which are much, much more survivable to sniper fire, our characters are about 30 points above what they should cost. The only one which is fine is the weirdboy, the comparable Death Guard Character is 110 points.

I get what you're saying but death guard characters being durable is sort of their thing. I don't have a problem with snipers in general (as in I don't hate them, my characters still die to them every once in a while obviously). A 4+ save on everyone along with significant price cuts on a few of them and I'd be happy with that. Our characters are a bit squishier than SM ones and for snipers to be at all useful they need to be able to threat the at least somewhat tougher characters meaning our guys will be susceptible. That's fine as long as we're not overpaying for them, which we currently are. So improve saves, bring down price and let every character have the option of a personal grot shield to tank a wound and we're golden IMO.

I still feel like the waaagh energy should give the weirdboy a 5++, he's 62 points and -super- easy to kill. Any daemon player can attest to a 5++ isn't some game changing bulwark, but it'd help out every now and then.

Edit: The eliminators scare me a bit however. Those mortis rounds that don't require LoS (my primary defense against snipers) could prove troublesome. Haven't faced any yet though.

It is fine to say deathguard are supopssed to be durable, but when they are offensively comparable and defensively better than an ork character for less points... that is a problem no?

I think GW looked at a lot of our units from the 6th edition codex where we overpaid by boatloads for everything, then dropped it so we pay less than that but still more than most armies for what our units do and said "fixed". It is admitadly much better than the past 2 editions, but the ork tax is real. I think GW somehow things orks roll max numebr of shots and are hitting with every one of those shots (only explanation I can think of).

Also some of our untis are just strictly worse for the same cost. look at a burna boy, a boy with a flamer who somehow costs what an imperial flamer costs plus the cost of a boy but with d3 hits instead of d6. They do get a melee (str 4 ap-2 d1) profile which is nice but at t4 and 6+ save because of the cost they will rarely use it because throwing that profile in melee means you just die in the next shooting phase when the unit walks away (fallback without penalty is sooo dumb). increased durability might fix them but i doubt GW is willign to give them a 4+ (probably the easiest fix)

 Jidmah wrote:

I know your pain - be happy your opponent was Ulthwe though, my regular eldar opponent is allaitioc (actually has been since 4th edition!) and not only do you get -50% shooting on most of your army, but he can bring Illic Nightspear on top of the sniper Autarch. With the help of 3-6 units of rangers your are sure to lose all your characters by turn 2.

Oh man that sounds grim. Do you agree with me about the folding thing?

I don't want to sound defeatist but our units seem so bad when they haven't got the buffs on them. Or is it just me?

For the record re KFF I took a Wazzbom and a combined Prism + Hemlock wrecked that in 2 turns. Though I placed his KFF well I had very poor target priority with it so need to play better but still. Ugh.

Grot support characters are mandatory though. I did forget about my oiler which cost me the KFF Mek, to be fair.

Yeah the buggies all need like a 30-40pt price reduction, Squigbuggy might need even more than that. Most expensive buggy, easily the weakest in every way....
Statwise ork stuff feels properly "half as good" as other army equivs, which is what theyre supposed to be as we spam things we dont take 1 T8 vehicle and expect it to live longer than 3 units worth of shooting at it, we take 2 and expect 1 to blow up or be on its last wounds very quickly and the other to be almost unscathed.
But pricewise, were BARELY cheaper and some of our gak is even more expensive (or exact price but weaker). Power Fists are 9pts for everybody EXCEPT orks which is 13pts wtf is with that crap?
Price difference of Marine vs Primaris and Boy vs Nob for example really bugs me. Nobz are 2x a boy, Primaris are 4pts more....

The grot oiler is really good against the new vindicares. I had an oppponent shoot at my super SAG mek and he only killed the grot. Then I explained to him that he couldn't roll off for the extra MWs since he killed the model he shot at. And he couldn't use the shoot twice strat (well he could, but had no other targets) since even though the grot is a different model it's still the same target.

Next turn I used grot shields just to annoy him

I don't think all the buggies need a price cut as drastic as 30-40 points however. The scrapjet and KBB are -almost- worth it as is IMO. Including wargear something like this would be fair I think:
Deffkilla 105
Scrapjet 90
KBB 80
SJD 90
BDSW 70
Squigbuggy 90 (?)

I'd drop the squigbuggy further still. It feels like it does absolutely nothing other than having enough wounds to be annoying to remove (not hard, annoying)
The mine is so laughably easy to get around or have screeners eat it, since it isnt gonna live long enough to drop it T5 to try and deny an objective.

The rest...yeah that feels about right off hand. They compare to Deffdredds at those prices imo, trading some durability for speed/dakka

While I do not disagree the buggies are mostly overcosted the Scrap jet, KBB and SJD are all currently pretty good compared to the rest of the rest of the codex.

the wartrike is in the same boat. overcosted compared to other armies things like biker marine captains or custodes shield captains, btu still has a place nn the tabel as is. could use a drop but does nto need a big one.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Oh man that sounds grim. Do you agree with me about the folding thing?

Depends.
If my army focuses on nobz, bonekrushas and planes, most characters are just HQ tax and do not serve another function but generating CP and softening the alpha-strike. The biker-warboss can be hidden behind a battlewagon and the SAG can be put put of range.
However, anything that relies on two or more units of boyz, also relies on warboss, weirdboyz, banners, docs and/or KFFs being there, those completely fall apart when their characters are gone.

I don't want to sound defeatist but our units seem so bad when they haven't got the buffs on them. Or is it just me?

Kind of. For most archetypes, when you shove all our decent units into a pile, they don't make for a coherent army, you are basically force to take some duds. The only thing that really does work well is shooty bad moons and freebootas, but for many players this not what you singed up for when starting orks. That, or you refuse to jump ship just to get the best kulture, which is a massive difference.

For the record re KFF I took a Wazzbom and a combined Prism + Hemlock wrecked that in 2 turns. Though I placed his KFF well I had very poor target priority with it so need to play better but still. Ugh.

Hemlocks are pretty much top priority no matter what. I can't think of anything more dangerous than flying psykers with super-deadly flamers. Lootas usually do the job pretty well, as they can just ignore their -2 to hit with More Dakka and blow them right out of the sky.

The problem with a hemlock is that it doesn't degrade. I mean it does, but not really. It auto hits and has assault weapons so even at 1 wound remaining it hits the same and still move up to 45". You might be spared from the psychic power if it's super low on health I guess.

So shooting at one can be pretty risky since there's a fairly realistic chance you've effectively done nothing that turn then

Dunno bout you guys but i feel the only reason i use the Deffkilla is the vehicle adv+charge and nothing else. Unless hes my warlord and uses Might is Right or Kunnin' but Brutal he just never does anything worth his points himself, but if i make him my warlord i pretty much guarantee i give up Slay the Warlord because i have yet to actually keep him from being the closest model after an assault. Base is simply too large to weave him into another unit.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
throwing a quick nod to Boss Zagstruk. I have been using him as a deep striking countermeasure. I do not take him with a unit of stormboys, rather as a single HQ slot for 88 points.

This sounds awesome. He's tough enough, dangerous enough, and the whole idea of a lone boss tearing up the backline is conceptually pretty sweet.

He is Goff-Locked, though, right? Do you run your whole list as Goffs? Just a sneaky patrol detachment with 10 grots?

PiñaColada wrote:
So shooting at one can be pretty risky since there's a fairly realistic chance you've effectively done nothing that turn then

12 T6 wounds should be killable though, especially since it will be in range of every single weapon you have. Smite it, shoot it with lootas or tankbustas with More Dakka! to soften it up (or just outright kill it by shooting twice) and then just throw everything you have at it, sluggas, stikkbombs, shootas, grot blastas, skorchas and every other weapon you don't need for something specific. Make sure to use both profiles of any kombi-weapons you have. If that fails use some more of your good guns like the SAG, meks guns until it's dead. Usually, you should have no trouble downing it unless your dice hate you.

If you are running a green tide, ignoring it is an option. No matter how awesome those flamers are, they kill no more than 2d3 models per turn, which is laughable, even when they are targeting your lootas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Dunno bout you guys but i feel the only reason i use the Deffkilla is the vehicle adv+charge and nothing else. Unless hes my warlord and uses Might is Right or Kunnin' but Brutal he just never does anything worth his points himself, but if i make him my warlord i pretty much guarantee i give up Slay the Warlord because i have yet to actually keep him from being the closest model after an assault. Base is simply too large to weave him into another unit.

Have you tried protecting him with planes? Even if you can't protect him from all shooting that way, my dakka jets have often prevented enemy shooty units from targeting my bikers boss by jumping into the enemy army.

 DaisyWondercow wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
throwing a quick nod to Boss Zagstruk. I have been using him as a deep striking countermeasure. I do not take him with a unit of stormboys, rather as a single HQ slot for 88 points.

This sounds awesome. He's tough enough, dangerous enough, and the whole idea of a lone boss tearing up the backline is conceptually pretty sweet.

He is Goff-Locked, though, right? Do you run your whole list as Goffs? Just a sneaky patrol detachment with 10 grots?

goff batallion: warphead wierdboy w/ warpath and da jump , boss Zagstruk, 29 slugga choppa boys w/ nob w/ killsaw taken as skarboys, 2 10 man gretchin. 435 points and 5 cp (you net 3 as warphead costs 1 and so does skarboys). assuming you get your powers off, which you should thanks to waaagh energy, 4+ on 2d6 , then you have 29 str 5 boys jumping in 9 inches, with 4 attacks each and a nob w/ 5 attachs at str 12.... and if you are against tau cry as they all die to overwatch, so change up your strategy, choose different powers, do not warphead upgrade or skarboys

My locals despise my dakkajets so they dont live long lol. I still take them because they tend to last longer than other vehicles due to the -1 to hit (its so lovely to feel multiple plasma cannon shots whiff because he rolled 3s lol)
That, and i find it hard to move the planes into a specific position like that without ending up going off the board next turn or the turn after. I dont get why i have such a problem with that, i know its just the way im using them but i dont see it.

I attached a quick draft on how I usually move my planes. Of course, you rarely get to make that many moves, but those patterns should keep them from crashing

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Dunno bout you guys but i feel the only reason i use the Deffkilla is the vehicle adv+charge and nothing else. Unless hes my warlord and uses Might is Right or Kunnin' but Brutal he just never does anything worth his points himself, but if i make him my warlord i pretty much guarantee i give up Slay the Warlord because i have yet to actually keep him from being the closest model after an assault. Base is simply too large to weave him into another unit.

The second that model was out I picked it up and have been trying to get him to work in my mostly Speed Freeks army since. But his weapons never seem to hit, I give him the 5+ FNP he never makes, and he usually just ends up dying turn two or so.

I recently had a 2000-point game against space wolves mostly running Thunderhammer/Stormshields and Dreadnaughts, after 3 volleys of 15 Lootas (each number of shots was 1 naturally) I only chipped two wounds off the Venerable Dread. I think I maybe did a total of 10 wounds the whole game before I was wiped, the only thing that really ended up being reliable was my two Weirdboyz under a KFF.

As much as I think this codex is fairly weak compared to others, I will say I do still have a lot of fun with the new codex at least.

Okay so with our various units and utilities, what are our best matchups army wise? who do we match up best against?

As long as they ain't running Knight Soup or Eldar Flyer Spam, I'd say we're gonna perform well against any army. But, really, it all boils down to composition (and to a lesser degree, luck) anyway. No Faction has just one type of composition, so saying "Orkz will always beat Space Marines," or something similar, is gonna be setting new players up for disappointment. Beat thing you can do is make a list that can handle a *variety* of different armies. And hope you don't go up against either of the lists I posted above.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
then you have 29 str 5 boys jumping in 9 inches, with 4 attacks each and a nob w/ 5 attachs at str 12.... and if you are against tau cry as they all die to overwatch, so change up your strategy, choose different powers, do not warphead upgrade or skarboys

Note. Skarboy nob is S5 base. Skarboy is not +1S. It's S5. Ergo nob doesn't change anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Competive tournament coming up. I want to try at least some new buggies I have been painting. 2k, flowchart(ie index if you have codex) and understrength banned. Considering death skull + bad moon shooty combo.

Battallion: Deathskull

relic SAG
weirdboy
3x30 boyz. Each with power klaw, 2 with rokkit, 1 with kombi rokkit on nob(last model to die generally so why NOT take kombi rokkit rather than rokkit boy anyway?)
3xscrapjet
3xtraktor kannon, 3xsmasha gun. These in pairs

Battallion: bad moon

2xweirdboy
3x10 grot
30xgrot
runtherd
15xloota

Unsurprisingly not particularly mobile list. Maybe I could try to fit painboy here to give my 90 boyz 6++/6+++. Unit of grots and something...Maybe swap one traktor into another smasha gun.

Mobility will be mainly with scrapjets while they are alive and da jump. 2 weirdboys have that, 1 warpath as basic plan. Da krunch maybe against somebody with big units.

Warlord trait on SAG will most likely be the +1 to wound thing. That or the deathskull one. Less likely to wound but if enemy has lots of characters that are likely to come near maybe worth it.

PiñaColada wrote:
The grot oiler is really good against the new vindicares. I had an oppponent shoot at my super SAG mek and he only killed the grot. Then I explained to him that he couldn't roll off for the extra MWs since he killed the model he shot at. And he couldn't use the shoot twice strat (well he could, but had no other targets) since even though the grot is a different model it's still the same target.

Next turn I used grot shields just to annoy him

I don't think all the buggies need a price cut as drastic as 30-40 points however. The scrapjet and KBB are -almost- worth it as is IMO. Including wargear something like this would be fair I think:
Deffkilla 105
Scrapjet 90
KBB 80
SJD 90
BDSW 70
Squigbuggy 90 (?)

This is appropriate, hopefully GW got our emails!

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
So shooting at one can be pretty risky since there's a fairly realistic chance you've effectively done nothing that turn then

12 T6 wounds should be killable though, especially since it will be in range of every single weapon you have. Smite it, shoot it with lootas or tankbustas with More Dakka! to soften it up (or just outright kill it by shooting twice) and then just throw everything you have at it, sluggas, stikkbombs, shootas, grot blastas, skorchas and every other weapon you don't need for something specific. Make sure to use both profiles of any kombi-weapons you have. If that fails use some more of your good guns like the SAG, meks guns until it's dead. Usually, you should have no trouble downing it unless your dice hate you.

Pina is right that it's pretty dumb the plane is the only vehicle in the game that I know of that doesn't actually degrade. It's also dumb it's the only flyer than can pivot twice.

You'll need more Dakka because they always, without fail either stack -2 to hit with Alaitoc (though my Ulthwe bud stayed fluffy, thus giving him absolutely no benefit but cementing his place as a legend) or drop their "rofl shame you tried to shoot/hit that thing in melee bs LFR" strat.

I've also found that the "throwing everything at it" approach can work but is a massive, MASSIVE time sink for often very little return. Nothing more fun than rolling 70 odd dice, then 10 or so only for the dude to make 5 saves and 3 FNPs.

I know they aren't the ideal target, but yesterday I shot Wraithblades with 9 bikes and did a total of 1 Wound. Cover is a bitch.

cover needs to get reverted to 7th rules where its a flat save and it applies via True LOS not whole unit in the terrain.
RIght now only people that even get it are those that rock 3+ saves as it is, thus get a 2+ save, and the ones that actually need it cant get it and dont really benefit when they do because AP negates it now.

 flandarz wrote:
As long as they ain't running Knight Soup or Eldar Flyer Spam, I'd say we're gonna perform well against any army. But, really, it all boils down to composition (and to a lesser degree, luck) anyway. No Faction has just one type of composition, so saying "Orkz will always beat Space Marines," or something similar, is gonna be setting new players up for disappointment. Beat thing you can do is make a list that can handle a *variety* of different armies. And hope you don't go up against either of the lists I posted above.

I know you meant well with this post but it still doesn't answer the question. I'll try to ask it in a different way. You are entering the final round of a competitive tournament. You get to choose who your opponent was. Who would you prefer to be up against?

Personally I find that codex space marines has struggled the most against my Orks when I play against them.

Ditto. Vanilla codex marines. But then again those struggle a lot.

Grey knights would be even better. Those are so bad even index orks could table them. Only bolter rule change could help but not expecting that to be nearly enough.

But of course neither is going to be in top areas

(also at least here everybody plays same amount of rounds so you face those at last round if you are at the bottom areas anyway)