No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**G00fySmiley**

Jidmah wrote:
No, I still love 'dem boyz. But I hate moving loads of infantry, which I have found mandatory for this edition's orks. In previous editions I have always run boyz in transports, but as neither trukk boyz nor battlewagon boyz are viable anymore, that's out of option. In perspective, even my 5th edition kan wall was only running 80 boyz - considered more than you could possibly kill in a game at that time.

So I'm currently aiming for a buggy/walker based army which I will take for a spin whenever possible, but I'm aware that I will not be able to beat an opponent who gets serious with it. So when it comes to details of ITC missions and beating castellan lists, I simply keep my mouth shut - I simply have no experience with that and I'm not huge fan of backseat advice.

In general, Death Guard are much more relaxed to play in large games and competitive matches, as you have no issues with running out of time and I feel that you need to pay a lot less attention to details like movement, piling etc in order to win games. A 2000 points game of Death Guard feels like a walk in the park, while the same game as orks makes you feel like you were run over by a bonekrusha.
So kudos to anyone playing four or five games in a row, but it's simply not for me.

In the end, both Death Guard and Orks are green, and green is da best!

I totally get that. I play a buggy based ork army in pick up games not because ti is the strongest, but because it is fin and the low model count makes for quick games. currently it is 3 bone breaker wagons, kbb, scrapjet, sjd, defkilla trike, warboss on a bike, 3 unit of meganobz, boss zag, plus a wierdboy and mek gunz. boyz just end up takign time to move, shoot ineffectively, and die in droves and run in morale unless i get placements right which ijust adds to time taken in movement phase.

I have a custodes army fopr when i want to take it easy and just bring a lunchbox sized army instead of a 27 gallon tote full of orks.

**flandarz**

I just play da Boyz, but I feel your pain on the model count. Us and Nidz are just real model heavy armies. But I'll probably stick with Orkz, partially because I'm on a limited budget and buying 2 or 3 armies of models is gonna easily break that, but also because I like em. They got great lore and are just fun to play.

**mhalko1**

Yeah model count has always been a downside. Even for my lists with Mork/gork's I have 70 ish boys and 30 grots to place and move. Gets kind of meh having to move them every phase. My 2k list for this weekend cuts down a bit more on boys and adds an extra gork/mork. I own 3.

**tneva82**

That's why i use movement trays and don#t try to maximize every boy into optimal position. Does mean rebasing to 32mm is out of the question. But the non-optimization means end result isn't that much different to 32mm bases likely anyway

**Coh Magnussen**

How does list-building advice change in a PL environment? Local store is doing an escalation league starting at 25PL, and since it's official GW i'll be limited to infantry models (I can't stomach GW prices for their vehicles). I was wondering if Nobz start making sense in PL land, or if the Loota remains king?

**Jidmah**

Coh Magnussen wrote:
How does list-building advice change in a PL environment? Local store is doing an escalation league starting at 25PL, and since it's official GW i'll be limited to infantry models (I can't stomach GW prices for their vehicles). I was wondering if Nobz start making sense in PL land, or if the Loota remains king?

Nobz make sense in any setting, if anything they get worse with PL since you cannot run them cheap. However, at 7 PL you basically get their upgrade for free, so nothing prevents you from decking them out with killsaws and combi-rokkits, cybrok and gretchin, to have a true all-round unit that is dangerous to about anything. The biggest challenge here is getting all the bits required.

You should still be running boyz and gretchin in addition though, as you do need those CP. Lootas are a good idea in any kind of scenario.

**mhalko1**

Jidmah wrote:
Coh Magnussen wrote:
How does list-building advice change in a PL environment? Local store is doing an escalation league starting at 25PL, and since it's official GW i'll be limited to infantry models (I can't stomach GW prices for their vehicles). I was wondering if Nobz start making sense in PL land, or if the Loota remains king?

Nobz make sense in any setting, if anything they get worse with PL since you cannot run them cheap. However, at 7 PL you basically get their upgrade for free, so nothing prevents you from decking them out with killsaws and combi-rokkits, cybrok and gretchin, to have a true all-round unit that is dangerous to about anything. The biggest challenge here is getting all the bits required.

You should still be running boyz and gretchin in addition though, as you do need those CP. Lootas are a good idea in any kind of scenario.

If you didn't pay the premium for traktor kannons would they be worth it? PL can be good if you are spamming them. I assume that the lower priced smasha guns would be hurt by PL.

**Ilgoth**

Orks are like being bald - it is never out of fashion.

Am I completely wrong, if I say there is a clear change away from ork flyers? Dont see dakkajets any longer.

**Weazel**

Three Smasha Guns or a Souped-Up SAG? Pros and cons for both choices.

Also, is it absolutely necessary to run Bad Moons if you're planning on using the SSAG? Talking about a fairly casual setting with a rare dabble into friendly tournaments.

**tneva82**

Weazel wrote:
Three Smasha Guns or a Souped-Up SAG? Pros and cons for both choices.

Also, is it absolutely necessary to run Bad Moons if you're planning on using the SSAG? Talking about a fairly casual setting with a rare dabble into friendly tournaments.

For 2nd not really no. In fact it's not even best one. Death skull one causes slightly more damage in average and has bigger chance to one shot knights than bad moon one until you reach to 3++/5+++(vs mortals) at which point odds are fairly same(rather small). Against 5++/5+++(mortals) death skull one shots most reliably and causes most wounds in average.

edit: above with assumption of +1 to wound vs vehicle warlord trait. Don't recall did lack of that affect it in bad moon's favour

**russellmoo**

The SSAG also does fine as a freebooter, as long as you proc the +1 to hit first, as hitting on 4's is a nice boost.

**mhalko1**

Deathskulls definitely the way to go on SSAG.

**flandarz**

I think tneva ran the math on it, and the differences between Bad Moonz, Deathskulls, and Freebooterz with the SSAG is like less than 1 Wound. So just run him how ya want.

**tneva82**

Well wound is a wound and one thing deathskull did spike noticably vs bad moon was one shotting knight. Well except 3++ one presumably because s11+ mortal wounds significance grows over reqular wounds so while odds are small bad moon gets help from those 5+ hits causing mortal wounds.

**Weazel**

Well I'm running Evil Sunz so glad to hear BM is not mandatory. I was actually thinking about the double tap stratagem above anything. So overall you'd say that the SSAG is superior to three smasha guns in most situations?

**flandarz**

SSAG is better for taking out single, high T, AP, and W targets. Either solo or as a small unit. Smashas are better for handling multiple mobs of elite infantry or light vehicles. They're also slightly more "survivable", if only because they have a higher T, more W, and separate into individual units when deployed. And only if your opponent has a sniper who can reliably target the SSAG.

Really, you can't go wrong with either one, and seems like most folks are including both in their lists.

**mhalko1**

flandarz wrote:
SSAG is better for taking out single, high T, AP, and W targets. Either solo or as a small unit. Smashas are better for handling multiple mobs of elite infantry or light vehicles. They're also slightly more "survivable", if only because they have a higher T, more W, and separate into individual units when deployed. And only if your opponent has a sniper who can reliably target the SSAG.

Really, you can't go wrong with either one, and seems like most folks are including both in their lists.

Just also don't forget to give him the warlord trait for monsters and vehicle targetting.

**Dendarien**

vercingatorix wrote:
yeah, unless all vehicles are SIGNIFICANTLY better, it's just not worth the trouble of transporting them.

I did have a blast playing 8 serpents and want to do something similar for trukks.

However, that's a local RTT fun army.

With my logic of

The best army includes lootas >
Lootas need lots of grots >
well if I'm getting lots of grots I mine as well get characters to fill out battalions >
If I already have this much infantry I mine as well go full infantry

Thanks for hopping into this thread to answer questions. Just getting back into the game with my old 5th edition ork army and your lists have been great references. A few questions about your recent list:

1. What's the deal with the big shootas in the Kommando squads?
2. Bad Moonz vs Evil Sunz - did you move away from Evil Sunz because your boyz are playing a different role now?
3. Mad Dok Grotsnik - you seem pretty hyped on him. Is it the ability to fall back and charge (on top of the normal painboy rules)?

**Jidmah**

tneva82 wrote:
Well wound is a wound and one thing deathskull did spike noticably vs bad moon was one shotting knight. Well except 3++ one presumably because s11+ mortal wounds significance grows over reqular wounds so while odds are small bad moon gets help from those 5+ hits causing mortal wounds.

The variance in the SSAG's results is so vast that one point difference of damage on average will probably never have an actual effect on your games.

**tneva82**

It will have 14% more wounds effect

**SemperMortis**

tneva82 wrote:
It will have 14% more wounds effect

true, but the biggest issue I have with the SSAG and SAG's in general, is getting the damned things to hit at all. Give the Big Mek a 10pt Git Finda upgrade and suddenly its perfect. For a SAG if you roll less than 4 there is a decent chance you miss with every shot. For the SSAG if you roll less than 7 there is a good chance you won't get more than 2 hits. If you can't give them the +1 BS change the weapons profile to be 2D3 for SAG's and 6+D6 for SSAG. If im already paying CP to get the stupid formation that gives you the SSAG I think its fair to ensure it gets at least a few shots off a turn.

**Jidmah**

tneva82 wrote:
It will have 14% more wounds effect

On average, yes, but as the chances of actually hitting that average is so low, the effect is almost non-existent.

**flandarz**

Even on average, it's the difference between 7 wounds and 8 wounds. Nice to have, but not as vast a difference as Bad Moonz Lootaz vs unKultured Lootaz. You could play your SSAG as any Kultur and he's gonna perform nearly as well regardless.

**tneva82**

Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
It will have 14% more wounds effect

On average, yes, but as the chances of actually hitting that average is so low, the effect is almost non-existent.

Well if you want to be throwing 14% off that freely be my guest.ain't my games you weaken.

Guess you would be saying flat 3+ charge on d6 over reqular ork charge would be no big deal.

**Jidmah**

tneva82 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
It will have 14% more wounds effect

On average, yes, but as the chances of actually hitting that average is so low, the effect is almost non-existent.

Well if you want to be throwing 14% off that freely be my guest.ain't my games you weaken.

Guess you would be saying flat 3+ charge on d6 over reqular ork charge would be no big deal.

First of all, you are being rude. Again. Over something you obviously didn't understand. Again.

Second, you aren't weakening your games either. Because the chance of that extra wound extra happening is so low it will only matter every one hundred games or so.

Averages for something as the SSAG have literally no meaning whatsoever. If you really want meaningful information you need to calculate the chance of every single result happening, which would be the percentage chance for every single result from 0 wounds to 456 (which is the theoretical maximum amount of damage the SSAG can do). Until you have done that for both deff skulls and bad moons, any conclusions you draw from just the averages are meaningless.

Go take a statistics class before acting all high and mighty over something that's almost as good as a guess value.

**flandarz**

I just wanna say you also got to look at the rest of the Detachment when choosing the best Kultur. The minor benefit given to the SSAG for Deathskullz might be outweighed by a greater benefit for your Gork when going Bad Moonz, for example. Can't look at the SSAG in a void, no more than you can look at any other unit by itself.

**hollow one**

Jidmah wrote:
No, I still love 'dem boyz. But I hate moving loads of infantry, which I have found mandatory for this edition's orks. In previous editions I have always run boyz in transports, but as neither trukk boyz nor battlewagon boyz are viable anymore, that's out of option. In perspective, even my 5th edition kan wall was only running 80 boyz - considered more than you could possibly kill in a game at that time.

So I'm currently aiming for a buggy/walker based army which I will take for a spin whenever possible, but I'm aware that I will not be able to beat an opponent who gets serious with it. So when it comes to details of ITC missions and beating castellan lists, I simply keep my mouth shut - I simply have no experience with that and I'm not huge fan of backseat advice.

In general, Death Guard are much more relaxed to play in large games and competitive matches, as you have no issues with running out of time and I feel that you need to pay a lot less attention to details like movement, piling etc in order to win games. A 2000 points game of Death Guard feels like a walk in the park, while the same game as orks makes you feel like you were run over by a bonekrusha.
So kudos to anyone playing four or five games in a row, but it's simply not for me.

In the end, both Death Guard and Orks are green, and green is da best!

I hear you mate, and sometimes just playing Morty means the game has far fewer decisions to be made. The boyz moving is one thing, all those boys can take a while sure, but the decisions are hard too, da jump every turn means you really got to know what your plan is because your movement is just too fluid. Meanwhile my deamon army just charges forward until one of us dies. Sometimes cruise control 40k is the best 40k.

**Jidmah**

hollow one wrote:
I hear you mate, and sometimes just playing Morty means the game has far fewer decisions to be made. The boyz moving is one thing, all those boys can take a while sure, but the decisions are hard too, da jump every turn means you really got to know what your plan is because your movement is just too fluid. Meanwhile my deamon army just charges forward until one of us dies. Sometimes cruise control 40k is the best 40k.

Agree. If you invest a lot into orks, you gain a lot out of them. If you don't invest or do a couple of mistakes, you will get your but handed - that's how it always has been and how it always will be. Orks don't give you anything for free, but they heavily reward skill.

Death Guard, on the other hand, hands out a huge amount of power for free which you can build upon with a hand full of simple tactics that have little counter-play. When I started them I applied basic ork tactics to them and it felt like I have no idea what I was doing, but the army was basically running itself. I have yet to lose a single game with them (a couple of draws though). They really play like orks with less models that refuse to die. DP => Warboss, pox walkers => slugga boyz, plague marines => shoota boyz, drones => skorchas, PBC => battlewagon.
I don't run Mortarion that often though, he is too easy to counter. Even when you can't kill him, just feed him a distraction unit and spread your army out. He will struggle to make his 470 points back even if he gets to rampage across the board unhindered.

If I were to play tournaments or leagues for big prices again, orks would probably be my choice to do so, just because the army has so much more potential. But for 10 bucks of store credit I you play the army that is more fun to play.

**koooaei**

Won another 750 tourney with orks. We do seem to be one of the toughest armies in smaller games.

Deffskullz:
Ssag mek
Biker boss with relik klaw
Wierdboy
30 shootas with a bigshoota
2x10 grots
3 manz
6 kommandoes with 2 burnas
Trukk

I often took the +1 cp and breaking heads warlord trait. Having 7 cp instead of 6 allowed to get an extra shoot twice or more dakka.

**Singleton Mosby**

koooaei wrote:
Won another 750 tourney with orks. We do seem to be one of the toughest armies in smaller games.

Deffskullz:
Ssag mek
Biker boss with relik klaw
Wierdboy
30 shootas with a bigshoota
2x10 grots
3 manz
6 kommandoes with 2 burnas
Trukk

I often took the +1 cp and breaking heads warlord trait. Having 7 cp instead of 6 allowed to get an extra shoot twice or more dakka.

Can the kommandoes take 2 burnas?