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2019/08/21 21:59:01
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Sorry, if I'm posting in the wrong tread I'm new here.
I read most of this discussion on ork tactics and there has been a point that caught me off guard.
All of you seems too agree that Shoota boyz are better to clear weak infantry screens on T1 (to allow jump and deepstrike sheninigans) with the Bad Moons kulturs
And I don't really see why because : say you start first you will not be in range with your shoota, so you will most likely advance to get the most boyz as possible in range.
Then the kulturs Evil sunz seems way better as :
- you go faster (+2 with move+advance)
-you don't get the -1 for advancing (hitting on 5/6 is stricly better that hitting on 6 rerolling 1)
Waiting to be proven wrong by people that have played this army way more than I did
2019/08/21 22:14:15
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I thought about that but when you calc the average shoot that bad moons give with the rerool on a 30 men unit of shoota bois its only 2,16666 more shoot
evil sunz are better for advancing and shooting because they give 6 more shoot when you advance while bad moons only give 1.16666
Also if you Da Jump the shoota bois, you will be able to Da Jump the choppa bois but with more difficulty
Also to clear 30 IG you will need to use the Bad moons stratagem, then I see why you need to play them bad moons but then you cannot use it on your lootas
So I'm thorn between the two and I don't really see a clear winner
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/21 22:41:16
2019/08/21 22:40:29
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Well, here's the math of 30 Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz that you Da Jump in.
60 shots, 5+ BS (reroll 1s and exploding 6s) S4, AP0, D1:
20 hits, 10 rerolls for 3.3 more hits, 10 extra attacks from DDD gives another 3.3 hits. That's a total of 26.6 hits.
Against T3 Guardsmen, you'll Wound 2/3rds of those hits, so about 17.6 Wounds. After a 4+ Save, you'll be looking at 8.8 Damage.
Then, if you need to, you use the Showing Off Stratagem to do all that again, so 17.6 Damage before you even need to Charge.
Evil Sunz, on the other hand, will get 23.3 hits, 15.4 Wounds, and 7.7 Damage, with no opportunity to shoot a second time. So, even without shooting twice, you're looking at about 1 more dead Guardsman compared to Evil Sunz. With Showing Off, you'll take out 10 more Guardsmen.
Evil Sunz trade that extra damage for being able to Advance and Shoot without penalty, more reliable charges, and being faster in general.
My personal opinion is to just use the Kultur that best fits your play style.
2019/08/21 22:49:01
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
That question about kulture was also bring because in the latest list that won a tournament ( one of the two featured in the Panda week-end run down https://imgur.com/a/GN6c5T7 )
He used Lootas and Boyz in a bad moons detachement meaning that T1 you have to choose where to use Showin' Off So I didn't quit get the point of playing the boyz as bad moons
But you are right that 1 guardsmen kill difference can also be a reason too play them as bad moons even without the stratagem
I will try that on my next game thanks for the advice !
Edit: I'm playing a green tide list 110-120 bois very much like the list linked, but with less mek guns ( I don't have have that many ) and a mek with KFF on bike
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/21 22:58:14
2019/08/21 23:00:11
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
No one takes Gretchin for their damage potential. They have 3 main uses.
1) they generate CP on the cheap. If you want to use Stratagems, you need Gretchin, plain and simple.
2) they protect more powerful units with Grot Shields. Spending 1 CP for 10+ ablative Wounds is a steal, especially considering how flimsy most Ork units are.
3) they can sit on Objectives. They're so weak and pathetic, there's no real cost efficient way to take them out. You'll always feel like you wasted your weapon's or unit's potential by having to focus on these buggers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I forgot about Deepstrike Denial, which kind of ties into point #3. If your opponent wants to drop something in your backfield, Gretchin can cover a lot of ground, are cheap, and (as I said) make your opponent wish he could shoot at something more dangerous.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 03:44:33
2019/08/22 08:35:49
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
MannyMcCoconut wrote: Hey all. I've got a 1000 pt game against Blood Angels coming up this weekend. Any general tactics/targeting priority for deathskullz vs BA?
New marines or current marines?
Generally, marines are incredibly shooty but lack the ability to survive a good counter shot. Don't bother charging them because full reroll overwatch is gonna murder you and boys aren't super good at killing regular marines, much less primaris marines.
You know what's phenomenal at killing primaris marines?
Bad ruck Flash gitz + da jump + every grot you own as a freeboota.
That's what I found this weekend anyway.
Gratz on another podium finish - couple of questions:
Did you push the grot horde up midfield then jump the flash gitz up behind them turn 1? Were the Gitz pretty immobile from then on?
How frequently were you able to procc the freeboota hit buff (with just the Mek guns/shootas?) or could the Gitz with Badrukk function well enough without it? I'd only ever considered FB as an all or nothing army to make best use of the kultur
Thanks! It was especially providential doing that well given I had to leave in the middle of the 6th round to catch a flight I had booked too early.
Generally with my army, I didn't have to push forward very much. I rarely made it over midfield until turn 3. I would use da jump to get my 24 inch range shooting from behind buildings to a few inches outside of my deployment zone. As far as Proccing the freeboota buff, I wasn't able to do that very often honestly. As long as the gitz didn't move they or did get the Proc if they did move they were usually fine.
When you have all those mek guns and a sag mek, people come to you. The game I lost was because I reserved both heavy hitters after a deployment mistake that would have given my opponent free reign to bomb either bustas or flash gitz with void bomber. I also completely underestimated the amount of mortal wounds coming from that army, executioner, smites, and some smite like powers meant that I was losing tons of stuff every psychic phase. After all the planes died, I still lost 14 boys to mortals in one psychic phase.
What list are you playing?
2019/08/22 09:10:59
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
You can find it in Panda's round up I linked earlier - it's the list with the gitz
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/08/22 12:06:59
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
flandarz wrote: No one takes Gretchin for their damage potential. They have 3 main uses.
1) they generate CP on the cheap. If you want to use Stratagems, you need Gretchin, plain and simple.
2) they protect more powerful units with Grot Shields. Spending 1 CP for 10+ ablative Wounds is a steal, especially considering how flimsy most Ork units are.
3) they can sit on Objectives. They're so weak and pathetic, there's no real cost efficient way to take them out. You'll always feel like you wasted your weapon's or unit's potential by having to focus on these buggers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I forgot about Deepstrike Denial, which kind of ties into point #3. If your opponent wants to drop something in your backfield, Gretchin can cover a lot of ground, are cheap, and (as I said) make your opponent wish he could shoot at something more dangerous.
Sorry I should have clarified, I was referring to units of 20-30 like in Steven Pampreen's and Charles Velazquez's lists in Panda's run down.
Using MSU units of 10 makes a lot of a sense but I'm curious what the benefit of going over 20 in a unit is and how people are running them.
Well, here's the math of 30 Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz that you Da Jump in.
60 shots, 5+ BS (reroll 1s and exploding 6s) S4, AP0, D1:
20 hits, 10 rerolls for 3.3 more hits, 10 extra attacks from DDD gives another 3.3 hits. That's a total of 26.6 hits.
Against T3 Guardsmen, you'll Wound 2/3rds of those hits, so about 17.6 Wounds. After a 4+ Save, you'll be looking at 8.8 Damage.
Just a quick question, the shot that you get from rerolling don't generate DDD proc ? and can you reroll 1 for shot that you get from the DDD proc ?
2019/08/22 13:43:40
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Its often overlooked that you can do that. Im not even sure how you math that. I just know the bad moonz + ddd is sliiiiightly worse than 4+ on average, but it combats -1 to hit better than BS4+
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/08/22 13:51:11
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
flandarz wrote: Well, here's the math of 30 Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz that you Da Jump in.
60 shots, 5+ BS (reroll 1s and exploding 6s) S4, AP0, D1:
20 hits, 10 rerolls for 3.3 more hits, 10 extra attacks from DDD gives another 3.3 hits. That's a total of 26.6 hits.
Against T3 Guardsmen, you'll Wound 2/3rds of those hits, so about 17.6 Wounds. After a 4+ Save, you'll be looking at 8.8 Damage.
Then, if you need to, you use the Showing Off Stratagem to do all that again, so 17.6 Damage before you even need to Charge.
Evil Sunz, on the other hand, will get 23.3 hits, 15.4 Wounds, and 7.7 Damage, with no opportunity to shoot a second time. So, even without shooting twice, you're looking at about 1 more dead Guardsman compared to Evil Sunz. With Showing Off, you'll take out 10 more Guardsmen.
Evil Sunz trade that extra damage for being able to Advance and Shoot without penalty, more reliable charges, and being faster in general.
My personal opinion is to just use the Kultur that best fits your play style.
5+ BS? Sure? They have to move to get in position = 6+ BS. That change the numbers.
why would they be hitting on 6s for moving? boyz use assault weapons, they didnt advanced they jumped.
He just mentioned the Evil Sunz ability as a comparison for Bad Moonz.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/08/22 14:36:29
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Its often overlooked that you can do that. Im not even sure how you math that. I just know the bad moonz + ddd is sliiiiightly worse than 4+ on average, but it combats -1 to hit better than BS4+
After some quick maths ork with bad moons and the rule DDD are BS 4.6+
40 shoota bois: aprox 37 hit
And with the More DDD stratagem its aprox 46 shoot so a pretty meh increase (+9 %)
But as You said before in the tread, its way better too cancel malus:because 40 shoota bois on 6+ are only hitting 18 time so the More DDD stratagem give them 28 more shoot so a + 150% increase in number of shoot !
thanks for the quick answer,
2019/08/22 14:52:11
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Emicrania wrote: Are you playing the PJ pants list?
60 boyz
Flashgitz
Bustas
And usual gunz+grots+hq?
I think you mean PJ was playing my list We were on the same team for ATC and he mainly plays sigmar now so I built him a list.
my list from memory this weekend:
deffskull
sag mek
kff mek
3x10 grots
bad moons
weirdboy
weirdboy
30 boys w/ big choppa
3x10 grots
15 bustas
Freebootas
badruck
warboss on bike
30 boys w/ big choppa
2x10 grots
1x28 grots
10 flash gitz with 2 ammo runts
5 smasha guns
1 traktor cannon
Oh brother hallelujah! That list is gorgeous! I've been going insane to see it streamed somewhere but so far no luck. I'm dying to know how you play it! What secondary you pick, how do you deploy and how you manouvre vs agents of Vect and knights?!
I WILL steal this list and play it at a GT in October, i think it is fluffy (ok that SSAG Deffskull maybe not ), has great sinergy and it it very hard to play right, which means it is multilayered and engaging to play. Tell me more!
2019/08/22 16:48:20
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
^ this. Unless you're running multiple 30-blobs, Runtherds are never gonna save enough Grots to get their points back. And even then, you'd probably just be better off using the Breakin' Headz ability of a Warboss/Nobz.
2019/08/22 19:21:36
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Only way he's "worth" it is if you have multiple squads of 30 grots that are going to be near enough for him to cover both.
Which why the heck would you take THAT many grots? They dont do anything other than get in the way (both enemy movement and bullets).
He has to save minimum 12 grots to make his points back. If you forget about the ones he kills to keep order that sounds easy, but usually the entire squad will die before it made sense to bring him instead of just bringing 4x10 grots in the first place.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/08/22 19:23:29
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Fair enough. I figured if he could keep a grot squad alive for longer than a turn he might be worth it, but if the warboss can do his job too then maybe not. How would I go about converting a runt herd into a weird boy? I'm thinking of picking up more grots, and I don't need that many runt herds. The fact that its only 10 gretchin per box is pretty annoying. I miss the days when GW sold things in their 20s.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/22 22:36:16
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2019/08/22 20:52:54
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I have a weirdboy converted from a runtherd and I did it by sticking a bull skull from the nobs box on his head and attaching the big skull face from the deff dread kit to his grot prod. Add lots of warpaint and glowing eyes, and TA-da, weirdboy.
If you don't have those bits, just get creative with him. He's already got a funky looking staff, so all he needs is some skulls really.
2019/08/22 21:28:29
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Emicrania wrote: Are you playing the PJ pants list?
60 boyz
Flashgitz
Bustas
And usual gunz+grots+hq?
I think you mean PJ was playing my list We were on the same team for ATC and he mainly plays sigmar now so I built him a list.
my list from memory this weekend:
deffskull
sag mek
kff mek
3x10 grots
bad moons
weirdboy
weirdboy
30 boys w/ big choppa
3x10 grots
15 bustas
Freebootas
badruck
warboss on bike
30 boys w/ big choppa
2x10 grots
1x28 grots
10 flash gitz with 2 ammo runts
5 smasha guns
1 traktor cannon
Oh brother hallelujah! That list is gorgeous! I've been going insane to see it streamed somewhere but so far no luck. I'm dying to know how you play it! What secondary you pick, how do you deploy and how you manouvre vs agents of Vect and knights?!
I WILL steal this list and play it at a GT in October, i think it is fluffy (ok that SSAG Deffskull maybe not ), has great sinergy and it it very hard to play right, which means it is multilayered and engaging to play. Tell me more!
If you can find the stream for Gencon I was playing this on stream. I believe they streamed it to facebook? I asked some people there and will let y'all know if I find it.
That list was slightly different, I had 30 less boys for a plane and more smashas.
Vs vect, once you figure it out tell me, I'm 1 for 2 against it. It's brutal. As long as I can hide my stuff it's fine though basically. I lost this weekend because I couldn't hide anything from the damn bomber. I could have with better deployment, I just failed too realize it there.
Vs knights, I just put flash gitz dead center and hid bustas out of LOS, both knight lists had no or very little out of LOS shooting which my opponents failed to take advantage fully.
I think I'm gonna give up on boys though, they've just been useless to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/22 22:33:31
2019/08/22 22:35:32
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
ManTube wrote: I have a weirdboy converted from a runtherd and I did it by sticking a bull skull from the nobs box on his head and attaching the big skull face from the deff dread kit to his grot prod. Add lots of warpaint and glowing eyes, and TA-da, weirdboy.
If you don't have those bits, just get creative with him. He's already got a funky looking staff, so all he needs is some skulls really.
Hmm I do have a bunch of shrunken heads and animal skull looking things from my lizardmen sets. I guess I'll try that.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2019/08/22 22:53:05
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
People were discussing probability and hitting with dakka dakka dakka and re-rolls, the math isn't so bad you just need to account for all the cases.
Here's a lil chart for all ballistic skills some time ago. This is the EXPECTED number of hits per shot made, not the probability of hitting. In some cases this is greater than 1 and that's because of Dakka Dakka Dakka triggering. This chart doesn't accurately apply to the deathskull trait or ammo runts.
I was wondering why there was a 2+ BS on there, then I remembered that we have exactly 2 models that can get to a 2+: the Flashgit Kaptin with Gitfinda and Freebooterz Procced, and the Dakkajet with All da Dakka, Freebooterz, and Long, Uncontrolled Bursts.
) and a mek with 
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
9500p fullpaint orks ready to krump!
~1660
