No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**dan2026**

I'm thinking of using some Flash Gits as well.

Are they best Da Jumped or Tellyported into position?

**Tomsug**

I have good experience with MANs. But It' s hard to use them right. There is a risk. But they definetly can do a brutal damage.

What I do:
2 squads at least 5 MANs each. Evil sunz. In tellyporta.
Waagh banner on da jump.
Motoboss and weirdboy march forward.
Some boyz or whatever attacks enemy from other side, than you want to charge the, with the MANs.

Turn 1 (and 2 if necessary) clean the screens.
Than DS manz plus banner. MANs charge. If you have 2 squads, at least one of the hit. 5MAN dual killsaw = 20 attacks WS 3+ T10 AP-4 D2. Maybe Warpaht can make it better? Can fight twice. And there is about 70% you charge both of them. They slain a knight and stay alive and slay something else next round. If there is a warboss, they can move. If there is no warboss they have a troubles.

If enemy can run away, MANs are useless.

As I said, complicated to coordinate. But brutal.

**flandarz**

Pretty much the only success I've had with MANz is in tying up a Tau online. Tau CC just ain't good enough to remove them, if you can lock them in.

**redboi**

SemperMortis wrote:
redboi wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
flandarz wrote:
The big thing keeping me from fielding MANz is that, while fairly durable, they don't deal much damage to anything. That -1 to hit from the Klaw really hurts them, and their ranged options are all pretty sub-par. And, honestly, with all the AP in the game, that 2+ Save isn't even that attractive either. They just have a lot of problems that make normal Nobz and Boyz better at anything you'd want them to do.

4 Meganobz = 140pts 5 Hellblasters = 165pts

5 Hellblasters WITH NO BUFFS, fire 5 shots at 30 or 10 shots at 15, without supercharging they hit 3.33 and 6.66 respectively and wound 2.22 and 4.44 which inflict 1.86 damage and 3.7 damage. If they super charge their shots its 3.33 and 6.66 hits still, 3.16 and 6.5 wounds which translate into 6 and 13ish damage. So those Hellblasters can basically wipe out a Meganobz squad at 15' range or kill half of it at 30' range. So much for durability, and as you mentioned flandarz, Units with that kind of -AP are not exactly rare in this edition.

MANz have 3 wounds each and Hellblasters do 2d overcharged. There will be overkill as it takes 2 hits to kill each nob. 5 HBs will only kill 2 and take one down to 1 wound in rapid fire range before getting mulched in CC

LD 7, -3 so you also have a 1/3rd chance to have your last guy die from morale. Good point though. But again, if a squad can almost earn its points back in a single shooting phase then either the unit is OP OR and much more likely in this situation, the target unit is crap.

Only 2 will be dead, assuming you failed all your 6+ armor saves. So you will need a 6 on leadership to lose one.

This is in a vacuum assuming an ideal scenario where all hellblasters are in rapid fire range and haven't lost any models, against a perfect target that hellblasters are designed to counter. Hellblasters are indeed nasty, but they are also juicy targets for lootas and mek guns, or even as a charge target for regular boys. You'd be wise not to have your MANz sitting in the open infront of them in the first place. I also play marines and I can tell you hellblasters rarely make it to rapid fire range unmolested. You will almost never encounter this scenario unless you have made several horrible mistakes.

MANz are far from our best units and probably not top table material, but they aren't THAT bad

**Jidmah**

Agree with red boi. Just shoot those helblasters before jumping your MANz in front of them, they are a top priority unit to take out anyways and they don't have grot shields or similar to protect them.

Plus MANz still have the job to SECURE OBJECTIVES, not to klaw-murder something big. PKs simply don't do that in 8th.
You push them onto a central or forward objective, kill whatever is there and then stay there, forcing your opponent to deal with them or lose the game. Anything besides helblasters will struggle to kill them, and even helblasters aren't too hot unless they are Dark Angels.
We have multiple people place top 4 with blocks of 10 MANz to prove this works.

**flandarz**

I will admit that, of our units, not many are able to Objective Camp as well as MANz. Probably best done as Deathskullz for Objective Secured.

**tneva82**

Holding one objective with bloody expensive unit that can't do anything while sitting on objective when there's 5 other objectives to fight doesn't sound that good. At worst you don't even get any cards for that objective after 1st so get at most 1 card(which you might get with cheaper unit anyway) and maybe end of the game points if they somehow survive.

**xlDuke**

tneva82 wrote:
Holding one objective with bloody expensive unit that can't do anything while sitting on objective when there's 5 other objectives to fight doesn't sound that good. At worst you don't even get any cards for that objective after 1st so get at most 1 card(which you might get with cheaper unit anyway) and maybe end of the game points if they somehow survive.

Agreed. With ITC (or similar) rules it might be viable to keep a unit like this on an objective but with BRB/CA missions it’s just not really tenable most of the time. This highlights to me the many ways that ITC vs GW mission rules totally colours the conversation about good units and what they’re good for. I’m not saying either mission set is the correct way to play as I see the benefits of both, I just mean to point out that there is a big difference in how games are played in the various formats and how different strategy and tactics are between them. I really enjoy this thread (as well as the other tactics threads I read) and all of the insights people provide but I sometimes find it difficult to extrapolate which pearls of wisdom I can apply to my own CA Maelstrom games.

**Jidmah**

tneva82 wrote:
Holding one objective with bloody expensive unit that can't do anything while sitting on objective when there's 5 other objectives to fight doesn't sound that good. At worst you don't even get any cards for that objective after 1st so get at most 1 card(which you might get with cheaper unit anyway) and maybe end of the game points if they somehow survive.

I don't think the ladz were discussing Maelstrom games. But you are right, I wouldn't bring them to those games either since there is no place to put them that forces the enemy to react to them. A gorkanaut is much better choice for maelstrom since it's faster and more killy, allowing for big plays which get you multiple VP.

ITC and enternal war missions (which are also part of ETC) reward staying power, and MANz have plenty of that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

flandarz wrote:
I will admit that, of our units, not many are able to Objective Camp as well as MANz. Probably best done as Deathskullz for Objective Secured.

You don't really need obSec for that, since their bases are huge and they still have multiple models there - most fast units will not be able to contest the objective in sufficient numbers, and even if they do, you krush 'em.
You also need the evil suns culture to make that charge, since you usually target objectives that are controlled by troops/firebase units of your opponent.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something new to report:

I finished my Boomdakka Snazzwagon and gave it a spin, because every model deserves a chance, even if math says otherwise.

So... it was a solid meh. It drove around, took overwatch for the boyz, killed a few infantry models worth 63 points (including moral casualties), locked a tank in combat, but nothing worth 100 points.
Mek special is totally not impressive, it really should have the D2 of snazzguns. Burna bottles are bad, definitely not worth putting the buggy in danger, and the big shoota and grot blasta being what they are. It feels like putting a slightly better armed trukk without passengers on the table. Durability was not an issue simply because it didn't do enough damage for my opponent to bother with it. Slugga boyz killed more models shooting than it did.
I'd take it for 50-60 points but at its current points, I'd rather not. Hopefully the kustom boosta blasta does better.

**CthuluIsSpy**

That's a pity. It has nice RoF. A few of the buggies could use a price cut, tbh. With the exception of the Scrapjet; that's a lot of S8 shots for a 110pt vehicle.

**the_scotsman**

KBB in my experience is my second-favorite buggy behind the skrapjet. With my freebootas I do also like the SDD, but it just doesn't roll as well as the skrapjet for me personally.

The trick with the KBB is you'll get a lot out of it if you know PRECISELY how much you can take out with the combination of the shooting + the charge mortal wounds, because otherwise you'll get stuck. It's one of the few buggies that really would rather be Evil Sunz than anything else, because it'll usually want to advance, it loves the extra 3" movement, and it loves the ES warlord trait to help it get back out.

The other option is to take it in your Blood Axes gretchin-detachment that you have for Cp fuel because of the Finkin Kap.

Basically it benefits hugely from being able to fall back and act.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Yeah, the KBB looks pretty good too. That and the scrapjet are probably the best buggies. The dragster would be nicer if it didn't commit suicide, but it still looks good.

**the_scotsman**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, the KBB looks pretty good too. That and the scrapjet are probably the best buggies. The dragster would be nicer if it didn't commit suicide, but it still looks good.

It doesn't if it's Freebootas or Bad Moonz, which it always should be.

**Jidmah**

Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Dethskullz probably aren't a bad choice either. The chances of you rolling 2 ones is pretty slim, so you can just reroll it most of the time. And you get that nice invul too.

I think Evil Sunz and Dethskullz are overall the best kultures, especially if you are going for mono-kulture builds.

Evil Sunz is good if you have a lot of assault weapons and not much variable damage and you really need to get up close and personal. You'd think that mass infantry wouldn't benefit from Evil Sunz because of the lore, but they work pretty well with the speed boost.

Dethskulls are good for MSU ranged builds that feature a lot of units with variable damage or single shot ranged attacks.
KMBs are your friend.

I tend to run evil sunz though, as I don't have the models that make the most out of Dethskullz.

**the_scotsman**

Jidmah wrote:
Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I don't remember if the rule states "unmodified roll of 1" for Ork overheat. But if it didn't, which is...kind of how I understood overheating in 8th, i.e. a -1 to hit makes you more likely to overheat...then shouldn't a +1 to hit make overheating impossible?

**Jidmah**

Agree. Unless I want to run Thrakka character, I usually go with mono deff-skulls now. The obSec on lootas, tank bustas and characters causes head-aches for enemy objective grabbers, 6++ helps both vehicles and infantry against shooting and characters in combat, and the re-rolls give klaws and kustom mega weapons a much need boost.

**Grimskul**

the_scotsman wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I don't remember if the rule states "unmodified roll of 1" for Ork overheat. But if it didn't, which is...kind of how I understood overheating in 8th, i.e. a -1 to hit makes you more likely to overheat...then shouldn't a +1 to hit make overheating impossible?

All Kustom Mega Weapons have the unmodified roll of 1 for overheating, but otherwise, yes you're right.

**Jidmah**

the_scotsman wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I don't remember if the rule states "unmodified roll of 1" for Ork overheat. But if it didn't, which is...kind of how I understood overheating in 8th, i.e. a -1 to hit makes you more likely to overheat...then shouldn't a +1 to hit make overheating impossible?

We just had this discussion a couple pages back, the ork codex almost exclusively uses "unmodified" when checking for sixes and ones.

**CthuluIsSpy**

the_scotsman wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I don't remember if the rule states "unmodified roll of 1" for Ork overheat. But if it didn't, which is...kind of how I understood overheating in 8th, i.e. a -1 to hit makes you more likely to overheat...then shouldn't a +1 to hit make overheating impossible?

That was only in early 8th ed books. The GW is now going for the "unmodified" value approach to stop that sort of thing from happening.
Ork weapons only overheat on natural rolls, and I think the same goes for marine and chaos weapons.

**the_scotsman**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Freebootaz still don't protect anyone from overheating.

I don't have the rules in front of me, so I don't remember if the rule states "unmodified roll of 1" for Ork overheat. But if it didn't, which is...kind of how I understood overheating in 8th, i.e. a -1 to hit makes you more likely to overheat...then shouldn't a +1 to hit make overheating impossible?

That was only in early 8th ed books. The GW is now going for the "unmodified" value approach to stop that sort of thing from happening.
Ork weapons only overheat on natural rolls, and I think the same goes for marine and chaos weapons.

Interesting. Fair enough, then. Honestly, as a gun with only 2 shots on it per turn, the number of times I've had the gets hot actually impact the performance of my SJD is preeeeeeetty small, particularly considering it just pops to any real application of antitank firepower and primarily it survives by virtue of there being more pressing, immediate threats for my opponent to target.

That's part of the weakness of the BDSW, in my opinion - it's arguably the "defensive" buggy, but it's still flimsy enough that it only takes a modicum more effort to destroy and it's still giving up points relatively quickly and easily. And its low offensive output means your opponent doesn't reeeeally have a reason to want it dead.

I've managed to make it a nuisance before, but not more of a nuisance than it would have been if it was a second copy of one of the other buggies.

**CthuluIsSpy**

If it were cheaper, then one could probably use it as a sacrificial harassment unit, like how small units of warhounds and swarms were used in Fantasy.

Basically, the idea is that you put in the way of the enemy and force them to deal with them, as they are in the way of enemy movement, they are attacking the flank, etc.
The -1 to hit and the 4+ explosion rule would lend credence to that tactic, as if they are right up in your opponents face, they have a could chance of exploding and killing some units. The -1 to hit would draw more fire than usual, which you can buff to -2 with the smoke clouds strat.
I really do suspect that when GW designed it, they were expecting players to use it as a sort of aggressive kamikaze unit, where your opponent has to decide whether to ignore it and take some harassing fire, or destroy it and take some mortal wounds.

The problem though is that 100 points is a lot for that sort of tactic. I don't think warhounds were 20+ points each at min unit size 5. Swarms were, iirc, but they tended to come in units of 3 and had a lot of wounds.

The snazzwagon should really be like, 60-70 points.

**Vineheart01**

100pts is fine for a suicide unit if its deadly enough to actually do something.
I ran MANz missiles all the time in previous editions. They were usually pushing 200pts and they did marvelous work if ignored, or ate quite a bit of dakka to prevent it.

Snazzwagon doesnt do jack diddly squat. If it was 60pts, i'd be fine with it, or current price with 2x the dakka it has.
I view it as one of the worst buggies. Not the worst, thats the squigbuggy, but 2nd worst. It doesnt do ANYTHING even remotely worth that pricetag.
Always found it funny its main gun was shown off to be some sort of really high rate of fire machine gun...and its probably the worst RoF per cost that isnt a rokkit/kmb level of strong attack.

3x Snazzwagons is 4pts shy of 2x 6 Supa Dakkajets.
27 S5 AP2 1D + 9 S5 AP0 1D + 6D6 S4 grenades (assuming youre THAT close)
vs
36 S6 AP1 1D hitting on 4s

Snazzwagon technically has more shots, but lower strength and a good chunk of it is grenades and it can be very easily charged to death.
Dakkajets cannot be charged by most units

I'd never use Snazzwagons over a dakkajet. Theyre both designed to clear chaff, and one is a lot harder to get rid of since it cant be charged.

**the_scotsman**

Vineheart01 wrote:
100pts is fine for a suicide unit if its deadly enough to actually do something.
I ran MANz missiles all the time in previous editions. They were usually pushing 200pts and they did marvelous work if ignored, or ate quite a bit of dakka to prevent it.

Snazzwagon doesnt do jack diddly squat. If it was 60pts, i'd be fine with it, or current price with 2x the dakka it has.
I view it as one of the worst buggies. Not the worst, thats the squigbuggy, but 2nd worst. It doesnt do ANYTHING even remotely worth that pricetag.
Always found it funny its main gun was shown off to be some sort of really high rate of fire machine gun...and its probably the worst RoF per cost that isnt a rokkit/kmb level of strong attack.

3x Snazzwagons is 4pts shy of 2x 6 Supa Dakkajets.
27 S5 AP2 1D + 9 S5 AP0 1D + 6D6 S4 grenades (assuming youre THAT close)
vs
36 S6 AP1 1D hitting on 4s

Snazzwagon technically has more shots, but lower strength and a good chunk of it is grenades and it can be very easily charged to death.
Dakkajets cannot be charged by most units

I'd never use Snazzwagons over a dakkajet. Theyre both designed to clear chaff, and one is a lot harder to get rid of since it cant be charged.

There was a ridiculous argument some many pages back where I horrifically offended someone by saying the Snazzwagon is actually the worst buggy exactly because of that comparison with the dakkajet. The Squigbuggy is objectively horrendous and definitely the worst in a vacuum, but at least there isn't another unit that has the exact same defensive profile, exact same job, and just...does the job better and more efficiently and has better abilities.

There's no 100% better "36" range flexi-profile variable poison/anti-elite shooting unit" in the ork codex to totally invalidate the Squigbuggy's role. It's just...hideously overcosted at that role, and one of the three weapon options it has just has no reason to be (bitey squigs, since they basically will never deal as much damage as Booms against any target due to 1/2 the shots).

Unless you perfectly balanced them to be exactly the same offensively and defensively, Dakkajets and BDSWs will always have one invalidating the other. That's why I think the BDSW should be redesigned from the ground up to be either a dedicated close-range horde clearing platform or a midrange anti-elite platform.

I would rather see the former:

-Scrap the -1 to hit rule
-Keep the explode rule
-Add Burna Bombs (melee), same profile as Burna Bombs (Shooting) but without the range. User may make an additional 2D6 attacks with this profile when they make a melee attack.
-Add the rule "Drive-By Dakka: The Big Shoota and Mek Speshul equipped by this model may shoot even if the unit fell back this turn."

**Jidmah**

I'd like to point out that the explodes rule is actually has a range of d6 - so even if you have a higher chance to explode at all, you are quite likely to not hit anything with the explosion anyways.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Jidmah wrote:
I'd like to point out that the explodes rule is actually has a range of d6 - so even if you have a higher chance to explode at all, you are quite likely to not hit anything with the explosion anyways.

Yeah, that is counter productive. GW didn't really think that through.

**Emicrania**

Quick question, does weirboyz benefit from +1/2/3 to dispel aswell?

**flandarz**

No. Deny tests aren't Psyker Power Checks, and unfortunately Waagh Energy ain't gonna help you there.

**Voidraven5829**

Got a list conundrum:
The rest of my list is set but right now I need to decide between three chunks:

Spoiler:

All options contain 3 things:
Infiltration units.
Heavy firepower support.
Escort for my knight hunter biker warboss.
Breakdown:

Spoiler:

Both options A and B give me the same amount of CP and deployment drops. C is the same amount of CP but reduces my drop count by 1 to 13.

Option A gives me more wounds and potential shots because of the mek guns and the scrap jets. It also keeps me at 1 unit of kommandos, which limits my potential objective shenanigans, and forcing my opponent to deploy a unit early. The scrap jets are also a lot slower than the biker boss, which isn't good as an escort, and can't break off from each other when I need them to. However, the mek gunz being static feels like a downshift since the rest of my army is highly mobile.

Option B gives me 2 units of kommandos for deployment and objective shenanigans, and an escort for the boss that can keep up. But this is overall a bit more fragile than option A, i feel. I like that this has the potential to outflank my enemy with the dragstas and the rest of my army to blindside them and present them with too many threats in their face to put them on the back foot.

Option C feels like a middleground between A and B in terms of overall damage potential. The KFF from the jet is gravy and applies to my blitz brigade BW that drags 30 shoota boys and my jumped unit of 40 choppa boys, allowing both units to potentially get the KFF early enough to matter. While the lone deffkopta is my one choice for reserve tactics, its also crazy fast to dart around where it can pick up an objective or something. Its not as strong as the kommandos would be because of the lack of "Zog Off" but could still do some work. Wazboms having a degrading profile is concerning, especially since it hurts its damage output.

For B and C, i like the dragstas and the shokk tunnel rule as a means to support distant allies when need be or pick up lonely objectives (if they survive long enough).

For now, my back of the napkin math and arguments would lean me to option B, because of the 2 units of kommandos, and the comfort of having tri-point bubble protection for the bikeboss. But I haven't played with scrap jets, dragstas or Wazboms ever so i dont know how they behave or what kind of hate they attract.

I have watched a few bat reps that involve each of the major players of the options and think that scrap jets are just too slow and unpredictable to keep up with the boss long enough that he can make it to his target, and the wazbom hasnt done much with its firepower at all based on what ive seen: it becomes practically useless once it drops down a tier.

Kindly people of Dakka, please help me decide which would be best for krumpin' the baddies. Links to discussion and bat reps that have something to do with these points are appreciated!

Here is the core of my list, in case you need it: (note that a lot of details are left out for brevity)

Spoiler:

Edited to do spoilers. Sorry!

**flandarz**

I want to help you out more, but what will be best for you will depend on how you play. However, just based on which option has the most competitive options, you should go with #1. Smashas are just fantastic AA for the pricetag, and Dakkajets are one of our best options for screen clearing.