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 flandarz wrote:
Really, 'Ard Boyz should probably just give T5. That pushes them over that milestone, meaning anti-infantry will have a harder time taking them down.

This would make sense but the strat would need to be limited to on or two units otherwise you get a toughness 5 greentide (though with nearly no cp left hah hah) which could be obnoxious for some to play against

They could make it one CP and go back to just one unit of 'ard boyz per army, like it used to be.

Oh, and some good news: A reliable french rumor monger apparently confirmed that there will be an Ork vs Space Wolves box, probably with new models for us.

 Jidmah wrote:
They could make it one CP and go back to just one unit of 'ard boyz per army, like it used to be.

Honestly if they did it would still be questionable to use. Plus, 30 T5 boyz are still not that hard to kill when they have a 6+ save, S4 weapons lose 1/3rd of their damage but with the sheer amount of rerolls floating around right now, its not even that much.

4+ save is 3+ in cover, if you have mek gunz near them that die you can loot them for +1 save. That would be worth 2 cp on 30 Boyz.

Alternative- like knight and chaos knight codex which can upgrade their all their heavy stubbers for 1 cp, maybe keep ard Boyz at 2 CP- +1 save but let it effect all the Boyz units in that detachment.

Questionable is good. No one wants an auto-take for 'Ard Boyz.

 flandarz wrote:
Questionable is good. No one wants an auto-take for 'Ard Boyz.

By Questionable I mean, I probably wouldn't waste the CP on a unit of boyz getting that buff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
4+ save is 3+ in cover, if you have mek gunz near them that did you can loot them for +1 save. That would be worth 2 cp on 30 Boyz.

2 CP to make a unit of boyz have a 3+ save would be useful, but a lot of things have to go right for that to happen. I like it though , but again, knowing GW. They would make a rule that said you couldn't loot a vehicle if you are an Ard Boy unit.

I dunno. T5 not only makes T4 wound less. It also makes T5 wound less, and T8 no longer give 2+. It's a fairly significant increase in survival. Especially since nearly everything seems to have AP now, which are even MORE common than Rerolls. Though, for 2CP? Still too expensive. 1 CP seems solid to me.

2 CP for a 3+ WOULD be good, but I 100% guarantee that GW (and pretty much everyone) would consider that too powerful for a 7ppm Troops unit.

Guys , did anybody ever did the real math on a SSAG?
Really trying to understand if put it in Deathskulls or freebooterz, but I can't even get started. too many variables.

Freebooterz: 7 attacks, 4 hits, 2 Wounds (assuming S7 vs T7), 7 damage. Add in the 1 in 6 chance to get MWs when you shoot, and you end up with around 8.5 damage, averaged across many attacks, and assuming you can always proc that +1.

Deathskullz: 7 attacks, 3 hits, 2 Wounds, and about 8 damage after the damage reroll. After MWs, about 8.5 or so.

That's some real rough math, obviously, but should be pretty close. If you're a lucky boy, and can always find an easy unit to wipe, Freebooter can be really deadly. But Deathskullz is far more reliable, and give you a 6++ to boot.

Hey everyone I am looking to find out what are the core Tactics and units in an Evil Sunz only list any strat combos would be much appreciated DAKKA DAKKA BOYZ

As I mentioned last page, you need to give us some more information than just "Evil Sunz" and "1750 pts". We can give you some general advice, but if we don't know what you got and how you play, our help will be extremely limited.

Evil Sunz advice: works better on slow units than units that are already fast. Make use of the no penalty to Assault when Advancing by including units with Assault weapons. Bear in mind that, when it comes to getting units where you want them to be, you're STILL better off with Da Jump and Tellyport in many cases. The Warlord Trait and Relic for Evil Sunz are worse than the generic options, but the Stratagem can see some use from time to time (though you generally want your units getting into CC rather than running from it).

 Emicrania wrote:
Guys , did anybody ever did the real math on a SSAG?
Really trying to understand if put it in Deathskulls or freebooterz, but I can't even get started. too many variables.

I simulated whole bunch of runs(like 10's of thousands couple times). End result was deathskull was SLIGHTLY better(except for corner case of 3++/5+++(vs mortal) knight where bad moons were king but those dont' exists anymore). End result was deathskull was sliiiiightly better than the others with freeboota close behind. Mind you difference was real small. With knights(5++) what I got was about 9.7 vs 9.5 wounds and 8.9% vs 8.7% one shots. So as you can see it's very, very, very close either way.

So basically: If you have both detachments deathskull if you want to maximize firepower. If you have one it's not HUGE loss either way. Though deathskull has 6++ which can occasionally come handy as might the objective secured. Not enough for me to get deathskull det just for that if I had freeboota but if I have both it's deathskull all the way.

If you have alternative target you want to try against feel free to tell(btw vs 1W infantry with low T I can say without simulation freeboota rules but albeit those aren't really worthwhile targets for it anyway)

Not math but if after 50,000 tries result is about that I think I can say safely that's close enough that I don't want to spend effort going even more accurate

 flandarz wrote:
Freebooterz: 7 attacks, 4 hits, 2 Wounds (assuming S7 vs T7), 7 damage. Add in the 1 in 6 chance to get MWs when you shoot, and you end up with around 8.5 damage, averaged across many attacks, and assuming you can always proc that +1.

Deathskullz: 7 attacks, 3 hits, 2 Wounds, and about 8 damage after the damage reroll. After MWs, about 8.5 or so.

That's some real rough math, obviously, but should be pretty close. If you're a lucky boy, and can always find an easy unit to wipe, Freebooter can be really deadly. But Deathskullz is far more reliable, and give you a 6++ to boot.

Thanks mate, I think I´ll try Deathskulls for a while and see how it fares.

 flandarz wrote:
Good job, buddy.

Thanks mate!

Yeah, list focus is very important for Orkz. We can burn through an easy 6+ CP a turn, if we ain't careful. Sometimes it's good to have a lot of options, but you also got to know when to use each option to make your CP last.

Yeah definitely, I'm back to the drawing board for my list now. I've got a dozen ideas I want to try but definitely want to lock down on a focus for CP usage. I'll probably drop Lootas for something that isn't as CP hungry. Flash Gitz or MANz possibly.

On the chess clock note: be aware that Orkz tend to suffer more than most with a clock. Especially if you're running infantry, because moving 90+ models can eat a LOT of time.

I've got movement trays for everything, so movement is actually pretty good. Dice rolling is my main nemesis but I've been practising good habits to mitigate that as much as possible, EG dice tray and pre-counting dice when opponent is active. It's still rough.
Another major time sink is just unpreparedness and poor decisions, so I've started working on game plans and deployments.

 Emicrania wrote:
Guys , did anybody ever did the real math on a SSAG?
Really trying to understand if put it in Deathskulls or freebooterz, but I can't even get started. too many variables.

I haven't done the real math for it yet (on my to do list) but I will add in my 2 cents.
From running triple SAG in both freebootas and Deathskulls, I think Deathskulls is the better choice. As others have posted the difference for the SUSAG can be marginal between the three dakka but I would wager that the vanilla SAG benefits significantly more from Deathskulls then the other two dakka clans.

 Quackzo wrote:
From running triple SAG in both freebootas and Deathskulls, I think Deathskulls is the better choice. As others have posted the difference for the SUSAG can be marginal between the three dakka but I would wager that the vanilla SAG benefits significantly more from Deathskulls then the other two dakka clans.

I simulated that one quickly and came up with(again vs T8 5++ target) 3,0071 wounds in average for deathskull and 2.34 for freeboota. So yeah both absolute and relative gap increased. Didn't bother with bad moon because that one is too obvious. So your wager is correct.

When it comes to freebootas vs. deathskulls on the SSAG, the more relevant questions instead of direct comparison is what does the rest of your list look like? Freeboota lists want to be non-soup to reliably trigger competitive streak and pass it around as much as possible, so if you are running a very shooty list designed around proc'ing that trait, you are gunna want to run the SSAG as freebootas for synergy reasons even if it maths out as slightly less efficient than a deathskulls SSAG. If you are more looking to just throw in a min-batt dreadwaaagh! detachment just to add the extra firepower a SSAG brings along into any old ork list, then yeah, run that battalion as deathskulls because it'll be slightly more efficient and you dont care about freeboota synergy.

Pretty much, only run SSAG as freebootas if the rest of your list is also freebootas.

My main issue with Freeboota is if you are facing a neg to hit army its kinda ruined, especially since many of them can squeeze -2 to hit.
Other less important issue i have is i feel i have to be clumped up a bit. 24" is wide, but the SAG being stationary makes it difficult to navigate and still be within that 24" of wherever the SAG was placed point. Especially since i dont spam mek gunz (aint got them to spam in the first place) and the main thing i got that tends to get a kill quickly is a plane, thus nowhere near my SAG lol
24" bubble doesnt feel that big when it cant move

 Vineheart01 wrote:
My main issue with Freeboota is if you are facing a neg to hit army its kinda ruined, especially since many of them can squeeze -2 to hit.
Other less important issue i have is i feel i have to be clumped up a bit. 24" is wide, but the SAG being stationary makes it difficult to navigate and still be within that 24" of wherever the SAG was placed point. Especially since i dont spam mek gunz (aint got them to spam in the first place) and the main thing i got that tends to get a kill quickly is a plane, thus nowhere near my SAG lol
24" bubble doesnt feel that big when it cant move

Fair critiques, but I guess that's the nature of freebootas. You really need everyone to be in the clan to spread the trait around so that it can still potentially make it back to those backfield units like SSAGs. If all goes well and you had good target allocation in the correct order, you can have the most accurate ork shooting across your whole army. But sometimes you can't wipe units with the right units and the buff doesn't go as far as you want it to. Ultimately I'd agree that deffskulls (or bad moonz) are probably the better and more versatile shooting clan overall, especially if you are leaning into MSU. But I'm currently building a list with 15 flash gitz and Badrukk, so I'm kinda committed to making the clan work.

Math : freebota sag vs deffskull.
Assume str 7 7 shots ( average) vs a T7 target without save.

Freeboter : 8,16 shots ( dakka dakka dakka) = 4,08 hits =2,04 wounds = 7,17 dmg.

Deff skull 7 shots + one reroll that could be a six = 9,33 shots average = 3,11 hits wound reroll = 2,055 wounds = 9,22 dmg because of dmg reroll

 Vineheart01 wrote:
My main issue with Freeboota is if you are facing a neg to hit army its kinda ruined, especially since many of them can squeeze -2 to hit.
Other less important issue i have is i feel i have to be clumped up a bit. 24" is wide, but the SAG being stationary makes it difficult to navigate and still be within that 24" of wherever the SAG was placed point. Especially since i dont spam mek gunz (aint got them to spam in the first place) and the main thing i got that tends to get a kill quickly is a plane, thus nowhere near my SAG lol
24" bubble doesnt feel that big when it cant move

You can fly squares in your own zone or at least around your BM without much trouble. Range should suffice. Hell you can make a train if you wish to have multiples. Just get them away when they start dying.

Honestly, I shifted from Freebooterz because of how difficult it can be to proc that +1. And if you can't proc it, then you're basically playing with no Kultur. Mostly running Deathskullz now, simply because they have stuff that's useful no matter what army you have, what army your opponent has, or what the game board currently looks like. It's obviously most optimal for MSUs and 6+ Save units, but you'll never be mad at three free rerolls a unit and a 6++ Save.

Exactly.

Unless theres a flak unit to shoot (grots, small guardsmen unit, cultists, etc) its generally kinda tough to kill something in one go for orks w/o any kulture boost.

The fact it works in both shooting and melee is nice, but unless im in combat with something thats pretty mean in melee i'd rather NOT fully kill them and just stay locked (love it when my boyz happen to stick to a single marine survivor and he cant fall back due to being surrounded)

 flandarz wrote:
Honestly, I shifted from Freebooterz because of how difficult it can be to proc that +1. And if you can't proc it, then you're basically playing with no Kultur. Mostly running Deathskullz now, simply because they have stuff that's useful no matter what army you have, what army your opponent has, or what the game board currently looks like. It's obviously most optimal for MSUs and 6+ Save units, but you'll never be mad at three free rerolls a unit and a 6++ Save.

Again, I'm inclined to agree with you. But I'm trying to run lots of flash gitz and make them work, so it's the freeboota life for me!

Far be it for me to tell ya what to play. I really do love the Freeboota lore and style. It's just unfortunate that they're really only "good" if you're playing someone running MSUs of weak things for you to get your +1s off of.

 flandarz wrote:
Far be it for me to tell ya what to play. I really do love the Freeboota lore and style. It's just unfortunate that they're really only "good" if you're playing someone running MSUs of weak things for you to get your +1s off of.

Yeah, its one of those situational match-ups they're optimized against. That's why I always felt their relic should have been something that, once per game, causes all Freeboota units with 24" to count has having their kultur ability procc'ed. Gives them a little more consistency for the turn you need it.

 Grimskul wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Far be it for me to tell ya what to play. I really do love the Freeboota lore and style. It's just unfortunate that they're really only "good" if you're playing someone running MSUs of weak things for you to get your +1s off of.

Yeah, its one of those situational match-ups they're optimized against. That's why I always felt their relic should have been something that, once per game, causes all Freeboota units with 24" to count has having their kultur ability procc'ed. Gives them a little more consistency for the turn you need it.

That would be a solid relic option for them. Another unfortunate problem for freebootas is they have pretty much the worst relic, warlord trait, and stratagem of all the clans. Badskull banner and killer reputation are both easily out-shined by generic options and kill krooza broadside is probably the worst strat in the whole book.

My meta has a fair amount of imperial guardsmen, space marines, and T'au, so I don't typically have much trouble finding a guardsmen squad or some scouts or fire warriors to kindly provide the trait for me.

That would definitely be 100% more useful than the once per game autopass morale that realistically will only be used for 1 unit if at all.
Course, our relics almost as a whole could use a facelift. Relic SAG aside, they all kinda suck except in very specific circumstances. I love the concept of the Blunderbuss but realistically it doesnt do much thanks to the range and boss durability being kinda crap.

The Buzzbomb is pretty decent. Too bad Snakebitez is just so subpar. I also like Supa Cybork, but mostly when paired with the Badmoonz WT for a pretty hard to kill Wartrike. Otherwise, it's pretty "meh". I heard good things about Da Killa Klaw, but I dunno if it's worth Relic status.

But, honestly, I could deal with subpar WTs, Strats, and Relics if the lame Kulturz and Stratagems got a facelift. 'Ard Boyz and Blood Axes, in particular, are just such a disappointment.

I dont get why the Buzzbomb is 1 use only.
Yeah as it is that would be pretty dang sick if it wasnt one use only, buts also a crazy short range and once a character is that close to the enemy hes gonna get swamped and murdered anyway.
I used to think the Gitstoppa Shells were amazing until i realized i misread it. It improves the SHOOTA profile of a kombi. I was using it to get S6 AP2 2D flamer lol. Which was actually pretty dang good....why on earth would i ever want to buff a shoota profile? lol

Still, up to 30 "flamer" attacks can be useful for clearing out some chaff before charging into what's behind them. Really only useful on the Wartrike though, since it's the only character fast enough to get into that range (that isn't Kultur-locked or Index). Too bad it doesn't have a rule like the new buggies, so it could shoot with its other weapons too. That'd certainly improve the viability of the Buzzbomb.

Just reread the description for the Thunderbuss and I'm astounded that it isn't a Freeboota Relic. Like, gold plated teef are right up their alley!

But, honestly? All of our generic stuff (Relics and WL Traits) kinda beats out the Kultur stuff. Which is weird to me, but what do I know?